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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Anderson on Monday 08 June 09 09:59 BST (UK)
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Would appreciate help from a good detective. This is what we have:
Joseph Samuel BOYCE born abt 1855 Co Down Ireland married 5 July 1877 Aukland NZ (according to NSW death cert.) Fannie Frances GREGSON born 1 Jan 1857 Co Armagh Ireland. (can't find any NZ mar.)
Their children in NZ:
William Thomas James b: 17 Aug 1878 Cambridge NZ.
Joseph Samuel b: 17 Dec 1879 Egmont Village via New Plymouth NZ.
Their 3rd child was born in New South Wales.
What we don't know is if Joseph (snr) went to NZ as a young lad with his parents and live there for some years or did he go to NZ as a young man on his own? can't find shipping records.
What we do know is that Joseph, Fannie & 2 sons left NZ sometime between 17 Dec 1879 (2nd child born NZ) & 19 Nov 1881 (3rd child born NSW). Can't find shipping records there either.
Would appreciate any help on this family.
Joseph & Fannie are my wife's G/grandparents.
Hope in hope if anyone can solve it it will be a Kiwi.
Regards
Anderson
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Hi there,
Have found these two birtha from our BDM website.
Childrens names are right but mothers name is different
1878/7238 Boyce Thomas William James Fanny Ann Joseph
1880/787 Boyce Joseph Samuel Fanny Joseph
because of joseph's birth been in middle of December 1879 it would have been registered in early January the following year.
Have not found a marriage yet
Newbe
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Do you know when Joseph and Fannie arrrived in NZ?
Could they have married before coming to NZ?
Newbe
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Thanks Newbe for your quick reply. The only information we have abt the mar. is from Joseph (snr) NSW death cert. shows are mar. on the 5 Jul 1877 in Aukland. A very precise date being some 58 yrs (his death) after the mar. So you would think it should be right. I don't know if Joseph (snr) came out as a lad with mum & dad or on his own or with Fannie? The only thing is the mar. date the 1st & 2nd children born NZ & 3re in NSW.
I would love to find them either arriving in NZ together or seperately in a passenger list & then leaving on the passenger list to NSW between Dec 1879 & Nov 1881
Anderson
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This is the only one I can find for a Joseph and Fannie in NSW
reg no/year Surname First name Father Mother District
35870/1889 BOYCE DAVID A JOSEPH FANNIE BROKEN HILL
Can not se one there for 1881/1882
Newbe
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Isn't it strange that some of the NSW records aren't shown in the NSW BDM and we managed to find all of the NSW ones. Elsa's g/grandmother was the 3rd child to Joseph & Fannie. She was the 1st child born in NSW. Her name was Mary Ann Elizabeth BOYCE born on the 19 Nov 1881 in Walcha NSW even though she is not shown in the NSW BDM index. We have her birth cert.
It is the ireland to New Zealand and the New Zealand to Aust. shipping dates that seems to be the hard to get bits.
Anderson
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Would any of these be your ones
24402/1881 BOYCE MARY ANNE E JOSEPH FRANCES WALCHA
15408/1885 BOYCE ROBERT J JOSEPH FRANCES BOURKE
36028/1887 BOYCE MARGARET J JOSEPH FRANCES SILVERTON
3449/1894 BOYCE EDWARD I JOSEPH FRANCES ADELONG
10131/1896 BOYCE FLORENCE M JOSEPH FANNY ADELONG
18614/1898 BOYCE FANNY F F JOSEPH FANNY F F ADELONG
Newbe
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It is funny how women put different name down when registering their children
Then again it could be the husband who filled the forms in
Do you have either birth cert from New Zealand?
That might give a clue about the marraige.
Newbe
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No we haven't got any of the birth cert. of the boys born in NZ.
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thats ok, just checking.
off to bed soon so will check some more in the morning
Newbe
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Thanks Newbe for all your help. I sent a reply to you before the last one but it doesn't look like it went through to you. It said that they were the family in NSW and with a few more in between. The Mary Ann E is Elsa's g/grandmother who was the 1st child born in NSW (Walcha). Must be 10:30pm where you are now so many thanks again & goodnight.
Anderson
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What we don't know is if Joseph (snr) went to NZ as a young lad with his parents and live there for some years or did he go to NZ as a young man on his own? can't find shipping records.
What we do know is that Joseph, Fannie & 2 sons left NZ sometime between 17 Dec 1879 (2nd child born NZ) & 19 Nov 1881 (3rd child born NSW). Can't find shipping records there either.
Hi Anderson
I've had a quick look at the passenger lists into New Zealand, and there doesn't appear to be records of Joseph BOYCE or Fannie / Frances GREGSON, arriving here.
You can make a more thorough search though (see the Resources section of this board for the link to shipping / passenger lists.)
With regard to trans-Tasman travel there really aren't a great deal of records available - especially for vessels to and from Sydney. You could try "The Mariners in Australian Waters" site which includes passenger lists and some voyages to NZ. (For travel to and from VIC - lists can be found on the PROV website).
* Do you have the death certificate for Fannie ?
It may prove helpful to compare the information from death certs. for both of them ?
I note that the name is shown as "Fannie Frances". Both of course are "standalone" names, but often "Fannie" or "Fanny" is used a pet name for "Frances".
I've also checked another resource (the NZSG Marriages CD) but alas, there seems to be no recorded marriage for Joseph BOYCE and Fannie GREGSON.
Lu
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Hi again Anderson
Have you tried searching lists of immigrants into Australia ?
This one I think, looks promising ??
ARRIVALS AT SYDNEY
BOYCE - Joseph (20) - and brother
"Star of India" - Arrived Sydney - 16 June 1876
[Brother - shown as "Darby BOYCE" - 24 years ]
Lu
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Thanks for your reply Lu. Yes I have seen those 2 men coming into Aust. on the Star of India and the dates seem abt right arriving Sydney 1876 but our Joseph & Fannie were married (?) according to Joseph's d/c on the 5 July 1877 in Aukland. I suppose Joseph arriving in Sydney from ireland could have left Sydney for NZ and mar. in that time but doesn't sound right.
Yes we have fannies d/c died 31 May 1934 77yrs at Kiama NSW. Born Co Armaugh Ireland. Informant-her son.
Married Aukland NZ. aged 25 yrs to Joseph BOYCE.
Time in colony 59 yrs in NSW
Father: Thomas GREGSON - farmer.
Mother: unknown
Hope this helps
Anderson
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Hi Anderson
I'm not sure why you say "it doesn't sound right" ??
There is a whole year between the date of arrival in Sydney and the "apparent" marriage in Auckland.
Am presuming Joseph died 1934 (is that correct) ?
* Was the informant of his death, the same son (or someone else) ?
Lu
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Not sure if my maths are correct here, but if Fannie spent 59 years in NSW, that would mean she arrived circa 1875 ?? (But time spent in NZ has obviously not been accounted for ?)
You see, information given by a third party, can't always be relied upon. ;)
Lu
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Hi Anderson
I'm not sure why you say "it doesn't sound right" ??
There is a whole year between the date of arrival in Sydney and the "apparent" marriage in Auckland.
I would have to agree with Lu.
Frequent Trans-Tasman travel was surprsingly common even then.
There is a possibility that they never married (for various reasons), and worked on the assumption that it would never be checked up on....
Bren
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Hi Lu
I suppose you are right. If you can travel from Ireland to Australia in those days then it isn't such a trip to NZ from Oz but I wonder why someone would only last such a short time in Aust. then travel to NZ?
The informant to both Joseph & Fannie was the same son and Joseph died on the 17 jan 1934 in NSW.
I don't know if I am allowed to scan and send you Joseph's d/c but I think I have given you all the info. it has on them both.
Thanks again for your help
Anderson
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....but I wonder why someone would only last such a short time in Aust. then travel to NZ?
Yes ... we can only wonder. :D But it's not unheard of. (We had an instance just the other day, where a couple were found to have arrived in OZ ... and in the very same month of their arrival, they appear on a passenger list to New Zealand !)
And I would echo Bren's suggestion, that this couple may never have, "officially" married ... despite the fact that you have a record with a "precise date of marriage". Again, this "marriage" date has been supplied by a third party and until you find an actual official record of the event, then it's wise to treat such information, with caution.
Don't worry about scanning the certificates - you've done well in already supplying us with ample details. ;)
But were this "my search", I'd be opting to purchase a copy of the immigration record for the Joseph BOYCE arriving in Sydney in 1876 ! ;) (These NSW immigration records, generally give, excellent info. - and the cost is under $20 AUS, if you use the services of a local transcription agent).
Good luck.
Lu
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Yes we have fannies d/c died 31 May 1934 77yrs at Kiama NSW. Born Co Armaugh Ireland. Informant-her son. Married Aukland NZ. aged 25 yrs to Joseph BOYCE.
Time in colony 59 yrs in NSW Father: Thomas GREGSON - farmer. Mother: unknown
If the information on the death certificate is correct then it may be that the marriage occured as late as 1882. By my calculations if Fanny died age 77 in 1934 that would make her birth year 1857. If she was 25 years old when she married that would make her marriage year 1882.
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Sorry correction of early post which I botched.
Yes we have fannies d/c died 31 May 1934 77yrs at Kiama NSW. Born Co Armaugh Ireland. Informant-her son. Married Aukland NZ. aged 25 yrs to Joseph BOYCE.
Time in colony 59 yrs in NSW Father: Thomas GREGSON - farmer. Mother: unknown
If the information on the death certificate is correct then it may be that the marriage occured as late as 1882. By my calculations if Fanny died age 77 in 1934 that would make her birth year 1857. If she was 25 years old when she married that would make her marriage year 1882.
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Good morning Lu.
I think that may be the way to go and now can you suggest what I do to find someone who transcribes these sort of things and maybe I start looking at Joseph sailing out of NSW. You are starting to make me think laterally.
Have a good one
Anderson
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You are starting to make me think laterally.
:D :D Hi Anderson
... ah, good! I've always been an advocate, of "thinking outside the square" (and it's served me very well) ! :)
Yes, will send you via PM, a contact for a most helpful transcription agent whom I've used on many occasions.
Lu
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Hi nicoleh13
Certainly a marriage at a later date (1882 +) is a possibility also ... and a search of the Australian indexes (in all States), may just turn up something ?? :)
Lu