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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Cambridgeshire => England => Cambridgeshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: MargeW on Saturday 18 July 09 16:43 BST (UK)
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Hi
I am trying to locate the deaths records for William and Elizabeth LAVENDER. Information I have on them so far is.
They had a daughter Mary b1848 in Witchford (My direct line). William is listed as a labourer. Elizabeth's maiden names was Wiles or Willis.
When Mary married in 1871 (to William Kendall in Greenwich), she listed her father as a deceased farmer.
One curious thing, Mary had living with her in 1881 Eliza Kendall b1866 Littleport. I don't think she was Mary's daughter and I wondered if perhaps she was a younger sister. Although, I can find no birth records for either Kendall or Lavender. I thought perhaps if Mary's parents had died the younger sister may have moved in?!!
I can find a Mary and William on the 1851 census and at first I thought it was them living in Witchford. However, I think this couple are also on the 1881 census in Holy Trinity and St Mary. So either its the wrong Mary and William or when Mary married her father was still alive!!!!
On later census records Mary always states she was born in Littleport. Although, I can find no details of her time there.
If anyone has access to burial or parish records for the Cambridgeshire area I would be extremely grateful for any help. I would like to clarify if her father was dead in 1871.
Many thanks
Margaret
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Hi Margaret
On the BMD there is a death of a William Lavender born abt 1811 registered 2nd quarter 1870 St Ives Cambridgeshire 3B 184. Any good?
Jan
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Hi Margaret,
I can find a Mary and William on the 1851 census and at first I thought it was them living in Witchford. However, I think this couple are also on the 1881 census in Holy Trinity and St Mary
I have a hunch that the family in the 1851 census is them because several things fit.
William Lavender 38 Farming Steward? b Norfolk
Elizabeth wife 32 b Ely Cambridgeshire
Harriett 8 b Norfolk
Joseph 6 b Ely
James 5 b Ely
Mary 2 b Witchford
Henry 6 months b Witchford
But I cant pick any of this family up in 1861 ???
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The nearest birth I can find on the bmd is a Mary Lavender 1848 Sept q. St. Ives, Cambridge 14 - 216 :-\
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There's also a death of a Mary Lavender in St Ives registration district in the March quarter 1849. There was a burial of a Mary Lavender aged 4 months at Hemingford Abbots, Hunts, which falls within St Ives reg district, on 8 Jan 1849.
I don't think this is the right Mary
In 1881 William and Mary living at Chatham, had two daughters with them: Elizabeth age 15 born Littleport, and Eliza age 5 born Isle of Dogs. If she was described as daughter why should she be Mary's younger sister, in which case she should have been enumerated as Mary Lavender. Or she could have been William's daughter by a first marriage (unlikely given his age in 1881). But another possibility is that she was Mary's illegitimate daughter, and was simply enumerated as Kendall rather than Lavender.
David
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Hi
Is this the family in 1881 RG 11 piece 894 folio 46 page 8
William Kendall 33 headboiler maker born Plaistow London
Mary Kendall 36 wife Littleport Cambs
Elizabeth Kendall 15 daughter Littleport Cambs
William J Kendall 9 son Monmouthshire
Eliza Kendall 5 daughter Isle of Dogs
If they didn't marry until 1871 it looks as if Elizabeth might not have been William's daughter, especially as she was born in the same place as her mother. Strange that William was born in Monmouth.
QUOTE
One curious thing, Mary had living with her in 1881 Eliza Kendall b1866 Littleport. I don't think she was Mary's daughter and I wondered if perhaps she was a younger sister. Although, I can find no birth records for either Kendall or Lavender. I thought perhaps if Mary's parents had died the younger sister may have moved in?!!
I'm a bit confused, why don't you think Eliza is Mary's daughter? If she was her sister she would have been a Lavender, also there is a huge age difference.
Jan
Oh just spotted it was is Elzabeth you are querying, not Eliza. She would still have been a Lavender! This could be her birth:
Mary Elizabeth Lavender 1867 1st quarter St Ives Cambridgeshire 3b 263.
As she was only 4 when Mary married it was probably easier to call her Kendall.
I see David has added to his post - but it looks as if we are thinking along the same lines
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The Cambs parishes in St Ives registration district were Boxworth, Conington, Fen Drayton, Lolworth, Over and Swavesey, the other side of the county from Littleport, which is in Ely registration district. I think St Ives is a red herring
Now why can't I find them in 1871!
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Hi bedfordshireboy
You're probably right.
Where's Witchford? There is an Emma Elizabeth Lavender born there 4th quarter 1864, 3B 564, that's the only other one I can see that might be her. That also fits with where Mary is said to be born in the 1851 census as given by Patrish.
If son William was born in Newport Monmouthshire, could the family be there in 1871?
Jan
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Here's William's birth:
William James Kendall 1st quarter 1872 Newport 11A 199
Can't see the family there in 1871
Jan
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Or she could have been William's daughter by a first marriage (unlikely given his age in 1881). But another possibility is that she was Mary's illegitimate
I agree David, William appears on the 1871 census living in West Ham, an unmarried boarder aged 26.
There is an Emma Elizabeth Lavender born there 4th quarter 1864, 3B 564, that's the only other one I can see that might be her.
This looks to be the daughter of a John and Elizabeth Lavender. I can find no birth record for an Elizabeth Lavender be 1865 in Littleport Cambs.
Mary Elizabeth Lavender 1867 1st quarter St Ives Cambridgeshire 3b 263.
Only just seen this
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1871 living Chatteris, sub dist of North Witchford. RG10/1608/53/16
William Lavender 52 Farmer of 4 acres
Elizabeth wife 47
Sarah E dau 14
Mary dau 5
It gives all born in Chatteris.
Anyone think this could be the same family I found in 1851 although ages are a bit out and some places of birth. ???
If so she could be Marys sister. :-\
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1871 living Chatteris, sub dist of North Witchford. RG10/1608/53/16
William Lavender 52 Farmer of 4 acres
Elizabeth wife 47
Sarah E dau 14
Mary dau 5
It gives all born in Chatteris.
Anyone think this could be the same family I found in 1851 although ages are a bit out and some places of birth. ???
If so she could be Marys sister. :-\
Hi Patrish
I'm not sure about this, if it is the same family why would they call two daughters Mary? ie the Mary born 1845 and this one born 1866.
We need to find William and Elizabeth's family in 1861 I think to see who was with them. We also need Margaret to come back and see if any of this fits with anything she already has.
Jan
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Thanks for your opinion Jan, I did think I was rather clutching at straws, I also thought that they could possibly have 2 daugthers with the same name especially if they were born many years apart, I have come across this before.
Nothings seems to quite fit does it, I,m sure there is something we are missing.
If only we could find them in 1861 :(
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According to the IGI a William Lavender married an Elizabeth Willis
20.4. 1841 in Welney Norfolk. Father of Wm is Roger Lavender.
This fits with the 1851 family and the birth of Harriet in Norfolk, so I definitely think thats the correct family now.
There is also a John Lavender married to an Elizabeth Bays 29.4.1842 in Chatteris, Cambridge... but the one I found in 1871 is a Wm not a John so I am keeping an open mind on that one for the moment.
Also found this on the IGI extraxcted birth record of a Mary Hannah Lavender b. 16.10.1848 ch. 19.10.1848 Kingswinford and St Marys Chaplery, Stafford
Paents William and Elizabeth Lavender :-\
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Hi
Sorry, only just managed to get back to my pc. I'm not sure that the 1851 family is the same. I know the names and the dates are correct, but I am convinced its the same William and Elizabeth that appears on the 1881 census. William says he was born in Welney and its is exactly the same info on the 1881 record. And I know Mary's father was dead by 1871. So I had ruled this out.
I do have a birth certificate for Mary b10/08/1848 Colemore Farm Witchford. This states that her mother was Elizabeth Wiles (although the IGI marriage says Willis). I was certain that this was correct, but I have now seen the marriage for William Lavender and Elizabeth Bays. (Patrish- John was William's father). So this may be them and I have the wrong birth. Mary always stated on later census that she was born in Littleport and the birth in Witchford, although close by has never really rung true.
In 1841 there is a Elizabeth and William Lavender living at Tips End, Upwell, Welney - both according to this were born in 1821. These seem to fit with the 1881 couple. William is listed as an Ag Labourer.
There is also in 1841 a William living at Hive End in Chatteris. Interestingly there is a family called Bays living next door. Although I can't spot an Elizabeth! I am guessing this is the 1871 family. Perhaps the younger Mary b1866 is my Mary's sister afterall. But not sure on the name change! There is no occupation listed for William, but most of the page are farmers.
I really could do to test my theory and see if there is a death around 1871 in Chatteris for William. I wish I lived nearer, then I could have a look through the parish records. What do you all think? I am getting so confused!!!
Marge
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I have been going around in circles with this all day Marge ;D
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I have been going around in circles with this all day
I've been up to Andorra doing some duty free shopping!
The last William buried in Chatteris was on 2 Jan 1835 of a 72 year old William, publican and collar maker. No more William burials in the transcript which goes up to 1902
David
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The problem here seems to be that there is more than one Wm Lavender married to an Elizabeth, thats where the confusion is.
I wouldent take it a gospel that Wm was deceased as per the marriage cert, they have known to be wrong in the past.
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I have been going around in circles with this all day
I've been up to Andorra doing some duty free shopping!
The last William buried in Chatteris was on 2 Jan 1835 of a 72 year old William, publican and collar maker. No more William burials in the transcript which goes up to 1902
David
It's all right for some David ;D ;D Lucky you.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that is confused! Perhaps you need to go back to one that you're sure of Marge and start again from there ruling out all the different families we've found. Good luck
Jan
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There is also in 1841 a William living at Hive End in Chatteris. Interestingly there is a family called Bays living next door.
Thats sounds promising .
(Patrish- John was William's father).
We know now that Williams father was John so this look likes his birth... IGI extracted record.
William Lavender b. 25.9. 1817 ch. 19.10.1817 Chatteris
father John... mother Mary.
So in 1871 he would be 54 so he may not be deceased.
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Thanks everyone. Sorry if I have driven you all to distraction! I guess its a mystery that I might never solve.
I wonder why Mary in the 1881, 1891, 1901 and 1911 always stated her birth place as Littleport. I can't find any Lavenders in Littleport. I know the villages mentioned are all close by, and this could be another red herring.
Something else I have just noticed, she calls herself Mary Ann. Its only after she marries that the Ann appears.
The only solid information I have on Mary is her marriage certificate to William. They married in Greenwich and the witnesses were David and Mary Newby (or at least I think its Newby, the handwriting is terrible!) So no help there with other Lavender family members. It definitely tells me that she was a spinster, so that rules out another marriage previous to William.
I wish I'd had a trip to Andorra - the dark grey skies of Yorkshire are not helping me.
Apologies, for not inserting quotes - I haven't figured out how to do that yet! Thanks again
Marge :)
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Something else I have just noticed, she calls herself Mary Ann. Its only after she marries that the Ann appears.
That could be just that before she married her father filled in the form and afterwards it was her husband ;D ;D
To insert a quote just click on the quote box on the right hand side of the post.
Jan
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The family may not show up on the 1861 census if they were living in Ely-much of the 1861 census for Ely was damaged by flood.
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I'm very confused by this thread! Could I summarise what I understand the position to be?
You have the 1871 marriage cert of Mary Lavender to William Kendall, in which her father was named as William Lavender, farmer, deceased?
In subsequent censuses she gave her birthplace as Littleport
William Lavender bachelor, farmer, son of John, farmer, married Elizabeth Bays minor, spinster dau of Thomas Bays, farmer, on 29 Apr 1842 at Chayyeris. Both otp. Witnesses Benjamin and Sarah Whiting and John Wright (who was an official). So the Joseph Bays who was living close to John and son William Lavender in 1841 wasn't the father of Elizabeth, but was probably related.
In 1851 William 32 and Elizabeth 27 were living at Slade End, Chatteris, with no children. I've been through Chatteris baptisms and they baptised no children 1842-51.
In 1861 in Chatteris William 41 and Elizabeth 37 had a daughter Sarah E aged 4, all born Chatteris, and in 1871 still at Slade End William 52, Elizabeth 47, Sarah 14 and Mary 5 all b Chatteris. The same four aged 6?, 55, 24 & 15 were still there in 1881. So this Mary can't have been the Mary 15 daughter of the Kendalls in 1881
Littleport is 17 miles by road from Chatteris, taking a bit of a loop, as an "as the crow flies" route isn't possible due to there being no bridges over the River Ouse. I think this is too far for Mary (Kendall) to have been confused as to where she was born.
I think the Chatteris family is a red herring - they had no daughter Mary who was of an age to have married in 1871, and William was still alive in 1881 (although I agree with Patrish that "deceased" on a marriage cert shouldn't be taken as proof that he was dead)
Which seems to bring us back to William Lavender & Elizabeth Wiles
If I've got anything totally wrapped round my neck I apologise!
David
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Hi David
I've just drawn out the above on paper and agree with you, they are a red herring as the dates don't fit. ;D ;D
Jan
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Hi all
Yes, now you have explained the geography of the area it doesn't make sense. It's really helpful to get a picture of the area. Thanks.
So maybe, dad was alive afterall! I wish I could be transported back in time to find out!!! I guess if it was easy t wouldn't be so much fun.
M :D
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Have I got this right then
We think that Wm Lavender and Elizabeth Wiles or Willis are the correct parents and thier daughter could be Mary, Mary Ann or Ann still believed to be born around 1848 in Cambridge.
We have completely ruled out any Chatteris families.
My husbands grandfather gave his status on his marriage to his grandmother as batchelor, I later discovered that he was in fact a widower, again take nothing for granted.
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According to the IGI a William Lavender married an Elizabeth Willis
20.4. 1841 in Welney Norfolk. Father of Wm is Roger Lavender.
This fits with the 1851 family and the birth of Harriet in Norfolk, so I definitely think thats the correct family now.
I agree with Patrish that this is the family with Mary being 2 in 1851, as detailed in reply #2
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The family may not show up on the 1861 census if they were living in Ely-much of the 1861 census for Ely was damaged by flood.
Well that could be the answer one question, thanks Annb :)
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Think I have found the marriage of Harriet b 1842 Welney, Norfolk.
March q. 1866 Cambridge 3b - 589 to Charles Allensby.
1871 RG10/1605/54/24 living
Hills Lane, St Marys, Ely.
Charles Allensby h.m. 27 Labourer b Ely
Harriet wife 28 b Norfolk Welney
Anna J dau 2 b Ely.
Their marriage certificate would state whether her father was still alive or deceased then, I would give that a go to at least narrow down his death date.
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Baptism
13th. Aug, 1848
Mary LAVENDER
Relationship: of
Father = William
Fathers occupation: farmers steward
Mother = Elizabeth
Abode: otp
Place: Witchford
of above same parents in same place.
James = 13th August, 1848.
Henry = 6th October, 1850
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Thank you Sue :)
That confirms that my original hunch was correct, and now we do have her baptism, may I please ask where you found it as none of us could ;)
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Cambs baptism index on findmypast.com
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1871
LAVINDER
William = 55 = publican and hackney ??? = born Welney
Elizabeth = 54
Harry = 18 = farm lab.
John = 15 = farm lab.
all down as born in Ely.
RG10; Piece: 1605; Folio: 46; Page: 8; = Ely
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What a brilliant find Sue.... you deserve a medal :)
I think it reads... Publican and Hackney Carter .
So Mary Lavender and William Kendalls marriage is registered in the March q. of 1871
The 1871 census was taken on the 2nd of April, so her father was still alive when she married as I suspected.
That should help you a lot Marge, no need to get her sisters marriage cert now :)
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Theres a death for a William Lavender in the June qtr of 1884, district Ely, of the right age. 3b,316
;D
and one for an Elizabeth, Sep qtr, 1889 Ely, 3b, 309. The age is a bit out but I would suspect its her.
Its a pity that neither of these appear on the NBI. :'(
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I think this couple are also on the 1881 census in Holy Trinity and St Mary.
Yes both still living in 1881 aged 63 and 62 respectively.
You beat me to it Sue ;D
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I think the clincher for the 1871 is the son Harry with them. I couldn't find a baptism for the son John.
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Possible marriages.
10th. Oct 1880
Henry LAVENDER
Groom Residence: otp
Groom Condition: bac
Rachel LUCAS
Bride Residence: otp
Bride Condition: sp
Place: Ely, Holy Trinity
Notes: [married in Trinity church]
4th. Apr,1874
John LAVENDER
Groom's residence: of St Marys Street
bach.
Groom's occ.: lab
Groom's age:
Groom's father William
Groom's father's occ lab
Bride forename: Eliza
Bride surname: CROSS
Bride's residence: of St Johns Place
sp.
Bride's age: minor
Bride's father Jacob
Bride's father's occ: lab
By Licence:
Ely, St Mary
Witness Henry LAVENDER
Witness Hannah CROSS
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Going back further, this might be Williams parents.
Roger Lavender, bach.
Mary Rumbelow,spin
both of the parish.
18th October, 1808 = Welney
witnesses
William Horn
John Loveday
a William was baptised to this couple in Welney, 2nd June, 1817.
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Wow Sue that was brilliant - where were you yesterday when we were all going round in circles? :D :D
Marge should be well pleased with this.
Jan
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Hi
Thank you so much, I am more than pleased I am ecstatic! This mystery has driven me mad, thanks to you all for giving up your time to help me. I really do appreciate it.
Marge :D
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So Williams father was Roger as I posted previously . ;D
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So Williams father was Roger as I posted previously . ;D
But wasn't it Patrish who also posted
"We know now that Williams father was John" !!!
But the loose end remains - who was Elizabeth Kendall aged 15 in 1881? I still favour illegitimate daughter of Mary, but I'm quite happy to be proved wrong
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Patrish- John was William's father). So this may be them and I have the wrong birth. Mary always stated on later census that she was born in Littleport and the bir
But wasn't it Patrish who also posted
"We know now that Williams father was John" !!!
Only because Marge had stated so in reply 14# after my post in reply 13# ::)
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Hi
William's father was definitely Roger. I have now tracked him and his family on the 1841 census. Also living in Upwell, Welney. He married Mary Rumbelow and they had several children
William
Roger
Joseph
Henry
Mary Ann
I have spent the afternoon checking later census records to see if the mysterious Elizabeth turned up anywhere. But no joy as yet!
All the best Marge :)
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A possible baptism
8th. Jun,1818
Elizabeth WILLIS
Relationship: dau of
Father = Robert
Fathers occupation: lab
Mother = Elizabeth
Place: Ely, St Mary
Marriage
Robert Willis of the parish, bach.
Elizabeth Thurston of March in Doddington
4th June, 1811 - Ely St. Mary
witnesses, both called John Ellis.
One of the witnesses at the Lavender/Willis marriage was a Hannah Willis. The above couple baptised a daughter Hannah in Ely 19th February, 1816.
James Hewlwtt of Newnham, bach. stonemason, father Arthur a gardener
Hannah Willis,spin of Market St., father Robert a lab.
by banns
21st May, 1848 = Ely Holy Trinity
witnesses
Robert Hamence
Frances Graves
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Thanks for this Sue, its another piece of the puzzle. I am cuurently trying to find any other records for Elizabeth Kendall b1866 (possibly Lavender) this is a tough one to crack!! Good job I'm on holiday or I would be feeling guilty!
Marge
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I am so pleased that this is gradually unravelling for you Marge :)
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Can't find anything for Elizabeth Kendall or Lavender c1866.
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Did William Kendall and Elizabeth marry before or after the census. If after there is a William K here in 1871 unmarried of about the right age.
RG10; Piece: 1628; Folio: 25; Page: 42 = West Ham
apologies if this had already been mentioned.
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apologies if this had already been mentioned.
Don't think it has Sue. :-* ... I saw that the other day but for some reason never thought to post it ::)
Their marriage is in the March q. 1871 maybe that why I didn't post it. :-\
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Can't find any sign of Eliza or Mary. :'( :'(
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Hi
I can't find any birth's for Elizabeth Lavender of Kendall around 1866, that would fit.
The only possibility is a birth on the cambridgeshire bmd site for Eliza Lavender b1867. Registration district Fenland. Not sure if this is the right vicinity?!! Maybe this is her. If nothing else turns up, I will add it to my list of certificates to purchase!!
Marge :)