RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: bellbird on Sunday 23 August 09 05:16 BST (UK)
-
Afternoon fellow kiwis, I am trying to find the bmd for the above two folk, my great grandparents. I have been told he arrived in NZ in 1861 but other than his death 4/8/1871 I have been unable to find anything other than a possible bankruptcy. I have found a reference for Anne McNeill Marriage in 1861 but no info on who her husband was. However the dates would add up. The birth dates for them I have been given are 1841 for William and 1844 for Anne. I have been unable to trace them in Scotland. Their first child a daughter Agnes was born in December 1865, then William November 1867 and lastly my grandmother Lily born February 1870. Anne predeceased William and died March 1871 and was buried in an unmarked grave in Old Port Chalmers Cemetery (shared I believe). Any help or contact with reles would be much appreciated. BELLBIRD
-
previous thread to avoid duplication of effort:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,318281.msg1990724.html#msg1990724
-
Hi
Looking at old thread and this
just to confirm have you got the birth certs for all children, just wondering in terms of fathers occupation
the marriage ref you said for 1861, was that NZ or Scotland
Bye
Althea
-
the marriage ref you said for 1861, was that NZ or Scotland
From another thread > >
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,394695.0.html
-
I have found a reference for Anne McNeill Marriage in 1861 but no info on who her husband was. However the dates would add up.
1861/1125 - McNEIL - Anne ... Robert SCOTT
[Source: NZSG Marriages CD - listed under now redundant Folio number - 0748 ]
-
Is Ann ?husband of the William we are looking for,
IF its not these or in NZ, did they arrive married?
Bye
Althea
-
I am trying to find the bmd for the above two folk,
Another thread > >
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,326545.0.html
-
Hi bellbird,
Have you approached the Port Chalmers Museum? It has excellent resources which includes a photograph library and a database compiled by Ian Church: Port Chalmers Early People. It is possible to contribute to this database, a format I wish other local museums would adopt.
Regional Maritime Museum, Port Chalmers
Beach Street
Port Chalmers 9023
Phone/fax +64 3 472 8233
Email: pcmuseum@xtra.co.nz
Website: http://www.portmuseum.org.nz/
Regards, riley
-
Looking at old thread and this
just to confirm have you got the birth certs for all children, just wondering in terms of fathers occupation
Bellbird
Althea makes a good point about verifying the occupation of the father.
We know from the newspaper article about the death of Ann WHITE in March 1871, that her husband was a lighterman.
But was William in this same occupation at an earlier date - i.e. back in 1865 when his first child was born ?
How do you know with certainty, that the William WHITE, Sea Captain, died August 1871, was the the same person, as William WHITE, the lighterman ?? [Unfortunately there is such limited information available on a death record from this era, that perhaps the only thing that might connect this William with Ann, is if they died at the same address ?]
* What happened to the children after their mother died ?
* Were they put into an orphanage, if so, have you found any records of same ?
Lu
-
Hi folks, boobed again, I put the reply to your responses on the wrong site, it went on to William and Ann/Anne White site by mistake. Blame that second brain injury :-[ :P ::)
-
Bellbird's reply > >
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,318281.new/boardseen.html#new
-
Hi Folks Been onto NZ BMD board and in 1871 3 William Whites died, what intrigues me is that all three have numbers consectively i.e. 1871/2626, 1871/2627 and 1871/2628. Hope to get time to look at this over the weekend and see if there is any info that will help identify which is my William. Hopefully I don't have to work!!!!!!!!. BELLBIRD
-
One is aged 30 and buried Shortland Cemetery Thames, North Island
Southern cemetery burial aged 30
and a death rego for Dunedin no age given (this could be the previous pperson?
(From NZSG burial locator)
Bye
Althea
-
Hi Bellbird
:D Intriguing, certainly. And how jolly annoying is this new numbering system adopted by NZ BDM ?
I'm not sure if you were planning to purchase the death printout for William WHITE, but just thought I should make you aware, that in 1871, only very limited information was recorded for deceased persons.
NZ DEATHS - prior to 1876
* Where and When died
* Name and Surname
* Sex
* Age
* Rank or profession
* Cause of death
* Description and residence of Informant to death
* When registered (date) - signature (or name) or Registrar
[So essentially all you would get for William WHITE died 1871, and which you don't already know, is > * the address (hopefully) at which he died ... * the cause of his death ... and the name and address of the informant. ] ???
Lu
-
Hi again Bellbird
If this were me seeking details about William WHITE, then I would be much more inclined towards purchasing the Bankruptcy file held at Archives New Zealand (Dunedin Office). ;)
WHITE - William - Port Chalmers - Lighterman - 1871
[Dunedin Bankruptcy Files (first series) ]
http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/
[For file reference number > type "William White" in search box ... the record can be found on page 8 ]
As I mentioned in the previous thread, usually these bankruptcy files carried information about the personal circumstances of the insolvent. (The file may also assist in telling, whether "William WHITE - lighterman" has died during the year of 1871 ? )
Lu
-
Hi Lucy 2 and Althea, Have applied for Bankruptcy records but not received them yet. Also for the info from the Port Chalmers Museum and it too hasn't arrived yet.
If the Cemetery records are correct and this is my William, he shares his grave with a Alfred Henry Bridger 65, buried 8/9/1918 and raises the query, is this grave one that belongs to the Undertaker and any burials of folk who have no one to pay for them are put in here. Anne shares an unmarked grave with a number of other people the folk in Dunedin have said and if above is right the same may have happened to William's grave, which raises another query, would this mean any marker William may have had would have been removed. Wonder what has happened to the old undertaker's records, are they kept somewhere? I have their names. Wises Directory has William at Leith Street in their 1871/72 book. Wonder if Libraries are likely to copies of records from various Directories.
Anne died at Currie Street Port Chalmers. I gather it is after Anne's death that my grandmother Lilly was taken into care by a neighbour (story has it Lilly's jewellery from her mother went missing) and she ended up in the Industrial School, guess the two may have gone there after Annes's death..
Wonder if the Industrial School was NZs equivalent of a children's workhouse.
Presumably William and Anne were married in Scotland, but as can't track down Anne's birth and one of two who could be William's but don't have any certainty. I have seen on Pladda records a William White arriving in Port Chalmers 1861, which may or may not be him. Have vague memory of seeing a William White Lighterman on one record but can't find it again or where I might have written it down. Also so many travelled out steerage and often their names weren't recorded. So the mystery continues as the saying goes.
Hope I've covered queries raised. Thanks for your input. BELLBIRD
-
Hi Bellbird
That's great ... and like you, we await these additional records, with interest.
Yes, have to say that as both Ann and William share burial plots with other (obviously unrelated) people, then very likely they were "pauper's graves" ... ("pauper" ... horrid word ::) ).
I think you would need to direct any further queries about the graves, to the cemetery. (See Dunedin cemeteries database).
Lu
-
Wises Directory has William at Leith Street in their 1871/72 book.
Wonder if Libraries are likely to copies of records from various Directories.
So was William's occupation also listed in that 1871/72 Wises Directory ?
And did you check beyond the 1871/72 dates ?
(Actually, these directories can sometimes be very misleading, as often names were not immediately removed when someone died ... or moved to a different location. ]
Larger libraries usually have a good range of Electoral rolls and directories which cover the whole of the country.
-
I have received the info held by the Port Chalmers Museum. it has photocopies from registers of births and deaths. The birth record of registration of Lilly and Agnes and record of registration of Anne's death. They don't have a copy of the birth registration of William Junior, said it appears there is a book missing. The Archives Office dealing with my request for William's bankruptcy have said within a few days they will send the Probate I requested. Hope that includes the bankruptcy info I requested. I get the feeling that Anne may have been literate so maybe she made a will. When I get the cash together I'll apply to see if she had one and any other info which hopefully will include her birth details, i.e. where she came from rather than just Scotland. The Museum cannot find any record of their marriage so suggest they were married prior to arriving in NZ. So I guess it is back to searching passenger records AGAIN. Wonder if they married in Dunedin rather than Port Chalmers, but then again they should show up on BMD records. Bellbird
-
Hi Bellbird,
Have just this month started research on my Bond links, typed in Andrew Bond and followed the link to you on RootsChat. Andrew Bond was my G-g-grandfather (my Grandfather being Hadley Bond). Don't know if I can be of any help to you but would like to get in contact.
Regards, Moneypenny
-
Morning Moneypenny. Would love to get in contact with you re Andrew Bond. I have got back to Andrews Dad but he is a problem in that I have a copy of his inquest from the Derby Mercury in 1830 but am unable to trace his burial. One of the Historical Societies of Derby have looked into it for me and are unable to find find anything. They say he would be in Alfreton Churchyard but it appears that the Minister forgot to write it in the Parish Records and consequently there is no record for it. They have suggested two couples that may be his parents but I haven't had time to chase it up yet. Would love to be able to go much further back, but with them being miners mostly it would appear they could be difficult to trace as government records only go from 1837 and we're into the late 1700s and have to work from Parish Records. IGI does give info but I'm reminded often by folk that you need to prove what you find on there as it is not always correct. I found that with Andrew's Mum remarrying being recorded as her marrying two men on the same day. There are two different spellings or interpretations of the same surname. :P one or two others as well. I presume when you say Hadley Bond is your grandfather, that he is my father's brother, if so I have met one of your Aunts a number of times when she has been down from Wellington. She has done some family history but in the main it is the modern tree. Another cousin of ours in Auckland has done alot through the IGI/Mormons in NZ. However I don't think she is as far back as I am. The other side of the Bond family (Hadley's Mum) is proving to be a problem as you'll have seen from the site you have sent your message from. I am hoping to find someone in the family who has a photograph of William and Anne and maybe even the children when young, also what happened to the children after both parents died within months of one another, LIly was about 1 year old and I've been told was looked after by a neighbour, she first appears in an Industrial School aged 13 and the others don't appear anywhere I can find. However I continue to ask questions and next on the list is the Otago History MUseum (not it's correct name that has vanished from my injured brain but I know who I mean and the name will crop up) Early Settlers I think is the name. Got some birth info from the Port Chalmers Museum, Lily and Agnes, but William Jnrs birth records seems to be in a book they have found is missing, if they find it they willl send the info on. Will be pleased to hear from you. BELLBIRD
-
Morning Lucy 2 Thanks for your suggestions re William I have now got the Bankruptcy records but they only talk about what he owed and his assets which were a few sticks of furniture and the clothing of himself and his children total ten pound about. Real sad. Debts included Anne's funeral fifteen pound. His wages for the month 16 pound. However he is literate as he signed a number of times on the bankruptcy papers and on one of the girls birth registration and Anne is literate too as she signed for other the girls birth registration. Re Wises entry, 1870-71 shows William as being at Currie Street and 1871-72 as William White at Leith Street Dunedin. The funeral notice/invitation to attend has "Captain" White as living at Leith StreetI still can't get their births, marriage or arrival in NZ presumably at Port Chalmers as that was where he worked. Wonder if the Port Companies brought specialised workers like Lightermen into the country and whether there would be records of this somewhere. Port Company or Early Settlers Museum maybe. Well it is Saturday and I guess I should get on with all those jobs I can't get onto during the week. :P Lyn
-
Hi Lucy 2 and others I have been in contact with Hocken Records at Dunedin and though they couldn't help me with the what happened to the children, their schooling etc they did tell me only one of the references to the 3 Williams White's that died in 1871 was from Dunedin so i have just applied for his probate (will etc) and asked if they have anything for Ann, which I will get if they do. I still can't find her on their death records but have a copy of the entry in the Death Register at Port Chalmers. I don't seem to have much success finding anything on their site. Still no success in tracing their births, marriage or arrival in NZ. Will try Early Settlers and Port Company to see if the latter in the early days brought in skilled labour and if they would have records of who and when they arrived. Have seen one William White on Pladda but think he is the shoemaker who settled outside of Dunedin. Was telling my younger son that his 2x great grandfather worked on the wharves, but instead of unloading the ships at the wharf like he does, William had to ferry the freight from ship in the harbour to shore. Oh well hopefully BDM Archives have some info for me, it over 3 weeks last time. :P :P BELLBIRD
-
Hi folks at long last I have a printout of Williams death record and he is classified as a seaman, so the newspaper ad inviting folk to the funeral of Captain White was most likely a nickname he used. So that is sorted out, but still can't find their entry into NZ, their marriage or births in Scotland. Nor what happened to the children after William's death. The last reference I have found for them is in his Bankruptcy papers where the assets listed are a few sticks of household furniture and his and his children's clothing about 10 pound. Am still trying to get hold of the Otago Early Settlers Museum to to see if they have any ideas about the children's whereabouts after his death and whether the then Port Company brought in skilled labour and if that is how he might have come in. Bit slow currently with being so tired handling the freight roll on 31 March when I can retire!!!!!! Found it interesting when I applied to BDM for the Williams printout, I'd mentioned I'd not been able to find Ann's entry on their site, I was asked for a copy of her death entry I'd obtained from Port Chalmers Museum. Does anyone have any ideas about finding the childrens whereabouts after Williams death? Wonder if they didn't have it??? Oh well 6.15am so must eat quickly and get to work. BELLBIRD
-
Hi Iam back still trying to sort out these two great grand parents. I have a copy of Ann's death entry in Port Chalmers from the Port chalmers Museum and the two girls birth entries, ther book with the brother in is missing. When I got William's printout from BDM I mentioned i had Ann's and they asked for a copy, maybe they didn't have it as i never found her on their records. William's printout says he was a seaman so no doubt the title Captain was a nickname or he called himself that when he moved into Leith Street, Dunedin. He was the only William White to die in Dunedin in 1871. I still haven't been able to trace their births or marriage in Scotland nor their entry into NZ I haven't been able to trace what happened to the children after his death apart from Lily turning up in an Industrial School aged 13
as a new entry. I haven't seen them on any orphanage records but may not have found them all. Has anyone got any suggestions as to where I could look next. BELLBIRD