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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Moray (Elginshire) => Topic started by: scotdownsouth on Sunday 13 September 09 22:14 BST (UK)
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I have managed to trace my great great grandfather David Mitchell back to his death in Elgin on 30 May 1889 aged 57 at 174 High Street which would give him a birth year of 1832 but his marriage to Ann Dunwoodie in Glasgow on 14 Nov 1856 gave him an age of 26 making his birth year 1830.
Census documents indicate he was born in Duffus Elgin but I can find no trace for either year or any 5 years either side. Any advice, suggestions or assistance much appreciated. His parents on his marriage certificate were Thomas Mitchell and Janet/Jessie Burgess.
Many Thanks.
George
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Hi George
Do you have access to all of the censuses? These would give you an age profile for every 10 years.
As he was born before official registration in 1855, the only source is likely tol be baptism records for the C of Scotland. His family might not have been of that religion or his baptism could be missing.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget
Yes I have the census and other information from following years
1856 Married in Glasgow 14 Nov aged 26 to Ann Dunwoodie (25)
1861 living in Glasgow aged 30 with wife Ann (Dunwoodie) Mitchell (29)
1871 living in Elgin aged 39 with wife Ann
1881 living in Elgin aged 48 with with (new) wife Barbara (54) don't know what happened to Ann........yet
Other information I have
Children born
Jessie Catherine Mitchell b 5 Sep 1857 Glasgow
John Turnbull Mitchell b. 30 Nov 1859 Glasgow
Janet Ann Robertson Mitchell b. 17 Jul 1861 Glasgow
Susan Ann Patterson Mitchell b. 3 Aug 1863 Elgin
Mary Jane Mitchell b. 7 Dec 1866 Elgin
David Mitchell b. 11 Jun 1868 Elgin (my great grandfather)
The strange thing is Jessie and John do not appear on the 1861 census (may have been infant deaths- need to check that out)
Like wise Janet does not appear on the 1871 census and only David appears on the 1881 census. Still have a lot of searching to do to find out what happened to them but concentrating on trying to find Davids birth date and place first. Thanks
George
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Yes - I noticed that they were childless on the 1861 :-\
I've not found his parents so far - either 1841/1851 or a marriage.
It might be that there will be no baptism record for him (I've looked for Mitchell variations and Burgess ).
Gadget
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His parents were Thomas Mitchell and Janet Burgess as listed on his marriage certificate from 1856 although I have seen on another document the wife is listed as Jessie. Thanks for your assistance and interest.
George
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I found a sister of David's on familysearch. Elspet,born circa 1834 married James McIntosh 20th June 1856 at the Free Church,Alves. If you look up the marriage details on scotlandspeople it should state whether her parents were still alive,& the witnesses may also give a clue to her heritage. Likewise,the information on David's marriage certificate (2 months later) should help. Did Janet's name appear as m.s.Burgess? If not this may indicate that Thomas & Janet were n't married.I'd a look for them on freecen but could n't find them.
flst
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His parents were Thomas Mitchell and Janet Burgess as listed on his marriage certificate from 1856 although I have seen on another document the wife is listed as Jessie. Thanks for your assistance and interest.
George
Hi George
I think you misunderstood :)
I was looking for them as your first message stated their names. I said that I couldn't find them on the early censuses rather than I didn't know who they were .
Gadget
PS - Jessie and Janet are used interchangeably in Scotland
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Thats a breakthrough. Many thanks for that will have a good look tomorrow at that fresh infomation and see where I get to next.
Thanks to you all for your time and trouble.
George
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His parents were Thomas Mitchell and Janet Burgess as listed on his marriage certificate from 1856 although I have seen on another document the wife is listed as Jessie. Thanks for your assistance and interest.
George
Hi George
I think you misunderstood :)
I was looking for them as your first message stated their names. I said that I couldn't find them on the early censuses rather than I didn't know who they were .
Gadget
PS - Jessie and Janet are used interchangeably in Scotland
Doh! Sorry about that Gadget!
George
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Just looking through the 1841 again - what was Thomas's occupation of David's marriage cert?
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I think I've found them on the 1841 in North Street, Peterhead - no David
Thomas was a Cooper aged 46
Jane, 45
Jessie, 14
Joseph, 12
Elspet, 9
Margaret, 5
All b. Scotland
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See this link regarding another post about this family
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=404127.new#new
flst
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Thans for that flst :)
I've jsut found David on the 1851 as a lodger in Elgin, aged 22 then. No sign of his parents .
Gadget
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David's also in Elgin in the 1841 census.He's a male servant at Glackmarras,aged 14 & born in Morayshire.
flst
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Thanks for all the info and assistance.
To answer a couple of the questions -
There is no M.S. next to the name Janet Burgess on the Nov 1856 marriage certificate of David Mitchell and Ann Dunwoodie
The occupation of Davids father Thomas Mitchell is given as Master Tailor
The marriage took place in Milton, Glasgow on 14 Nov 1856
David and Anns son (also David) was born on 11 Jun 1868 at 174 High St Elgin
their sixth child after Jessie John Janet Susan and Mary
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There is no M.S. next to the name Janet Burgess on the Nov 1856 marriage certificate of David Mitchell and Ann Dunwoodie
This suggests that Thomas and Jessie did not marry.
If you can get to Edinburgh at all, it might be worth going to the National Archives and getting sight of the Kirk Session Minutes for Duffus. This might well record something about David's birth.
Note - with this information, the 1841 family that I found is probably wrong.
Gadget
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Thanks Gadget for pointing me in the right direction on that one, will try to get to Edinburgh sometime next month or November.
Agree that the 1841 family is unlikely to be the same given the occupations.
Will check out the marriage cert. of Elspet as suggested and let you know the result of that.
George
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The marriage certificate of Elspet Mitchell 22 and James McIntosh 23 on 20 June 1856 states that Elspets parents were:-
Thomas Mitchell - Labourer (deceased) and
Janet Mitchell - Maiden name Burgess
(although the later 1856 wedding of David, 26, on Nov 14 in Glasgow states Thomas occupation as Master Tailor)
Witnesses were George Souter and Alexander Munro
Elspets place of residence is given as (what looks like) Master-Alves, Parish of Alves and if she is indeed Davids sister then she could be the way ahead as I guess Elspet would be a pretty unusual name (or maybe it was all the rage then!)
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I think you'll find Elspet is a common name in these parts!The fact that there's different first names on the certificates may be another indicator that they never knew their father .
flst
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Sorry, I am beginning to get a little confused. Whose names are different and on what certificates?
As far as my research has taken me the only differential in names is that of Janet/Jessie. On the marriage certificate of her son David in 1856 she is listed as being Janet Burgess without m.s. but on the death certificate of David in 1889 she is listed as being Jessie Mitchell m.s. Burgess (deceased) alongside that of Thomas Mitchell - Tailor (deceased)
Hope that explains it or are you talking about someone else? Thanks
George
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Sorry,I'm confused myself! I meant to say different occupation. Perhaps Thomas was a labourer after being a master tailor but seems a bit unlikely! What do you think?
flst
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Sorry,I'm confused myself! I meant to say different occupation. Perhaps Thomas was a labourer after being a master tailor but seems a bit unlikely! What do you think?
flst
My thoughts thus far.
Elspet b. circa 1834 parents Thomas Mitchell (labourer) and Janet Burgess. By time Elspet is 22 her father is deceased as stated on her wedding certificate of 20 Jun 1856.
David b. circa 1830/2 in Duffus Elgin (from census information from 1861 1871 and 1881) parents Thomas Mitchell (Master Tailor) and Janet Burgess as stated on his marriage certificate from 14 November 1856 in Glasgow to Ann Dunwoodie.
No mention of father being deceased on this wedding certificate.
Perhaps David has left home and working/living in Glasgow by say 1850 and is unaware his father has died, hence no mention on his marriage certificate, and as you suggest maybe his father was a tailor while he was at home and changed occupation after David left for Glasgow and became a labourer until his death some time before Elspet got married.
All possible I suppose but not proven either way yet. May have to try and find David in the 1851 census to see if he is in Glasgow by then although Gadget thinks he was on the census as a lodger still in Elgin so maybe not!
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ICensus documents indicate he was born in Duffus
For some unaccountable reason all the baptisms in Duffus from 1820 until 1854 were omitted from the IGI and the Scotland's People indexes. SP may or may not have remedied this by now. They are indexed on LIBINDX at http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/mainmenu.asp. However I have checked and there is nothing on LIBINDX about David Mitchell or David Burgess born in Duffus in the 1830s.
If, as seems probable, he was illegitimate, it is possible that the Duffus Kirk Session minutes might shed some light on the matter. These are in the National Archives of Scotland www.nas.gov.uk but the last time I looked they were not accessible online, so you would need to get someone to go and look at them for you in Register House, Edinburgh.
In the 1841 census there are a Janet Burghess, 45, ag lab, and Elspet Burghess, 5, in Duffus. She may be the same one who is listed in 1851 as Janet Burgess, 64, pauper, living in Cummingston. I have no other information about this Janet, but she could perhaps be the mother of your David.
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Thanks for your information on this topic. I am now aware that in addition to a parish called Duffus there was also a parish named Dallas in Moray so I may have to revisit my certificates and check on the correct parish as on some certificates it looks like it could be Duffus or Dallas.
I remain convinced (but not yet 100 percent without any documentary evidence) that Janet Burgess and Thomas Mitchell did indeed marry as m.s. appears on the death certificate of their son David (1889) and also on the 1856 marriage certificate of Elspeth Mitchell to James McIntosh who I believe was sister to David but again no hard evidence as yet. Thanks again.
George
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Ah, yes, I could have told you there are both a Dallas and a Duffus. Very confusing!
If Thomas Mitchell and Janet/Jessie Burgess had three or more children, it does strengthen the evidence for there having been a marriage. It is unusual for a couple to have three illegitimate children, but not impossible.
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Further research has revealed the following
Thomas Mitchell and Janet Burgess had at least 3 children that I have found:-
David b. 20 Aug 1827
Alexander b. 19 Apr 1831
Elspet b. 4 Jan 1834
all traced via the Moray Libindx site but census for 1841 reveals nothing as a family, and I can find nothing at all about Thomas and Janet relating to b/m/d.
All 3 children were born in Cummingston..........the search continues!
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Elspet married James McIntosh in 1856 and died on 16 Dec 1899 at Rosevalley Farm, Duffus
David married Ann Dunwoodie in 1856 and died on 30 May 1889 at 174 High St Elgin
No info on Alexander as yet or the elusive parents!
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Having re-read through this whole thread again I will have a closer look at the Janet Burgess pauper aged 64 living in Cummingston in the 1851 census as stated above. May be able to trace her death details as well if it is the correct person.
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I think that the 1841 census details that Forfarian quoted will turn out to be your Janet & daughter. I hope you can find poor relief records for Janet as they will provide a great deal of information.
flst
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Thank you for that information. I have checked out the census record on SP and it does indeed look like the correct Janet albeit with the slight surname difference of Burghess but I think I am getting used to this sort of thing now!
She is listed as 45 and Elspet as 7 (not 5 as above) which would tie in with the birth date of Elspet that I found earlier of 4 Jan 1834. No sign of Alexander who would be 10 by this time although I have found an Alexander also working as an Arg Lab in another part of the census and also no sign of eldest child David who would be 14 by this time but may also have been working elsewhere (poss sighting as domestic servant if memory serves by Gadget)
Thanks again, will keep looking for Thomas Mitchell father of all 3 children.
George
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David's also in Elgin in the 1841 census.He's a male servant at Glackmarras,aged 14 & born in Morayshire.
flst
Sorry it was not Gadget it was flst who mentioned David working as a domestic servant.
This would tie in with the date I have found for his birth of 20 Aug 1827 making him 14 at the time of the 1841 census.
George
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Hello George aka scotdownsouth..
I found your posts on RootsChat simply by googling my ancestors Elspet Mitchell and James McIntosh. Thomas Mitchell and Janet/Jessie Burgess are my great-great-great-great grandparents! I've read through your posts and I'm afraid I don't have much more information than you do. There's just one possible clue - in the 1871 census, James and Elspet's son Duncan was working for/living with a William Mitchell ("farmer of 222 Ac of which 122 Ac Able employing 5 lab 3 boy"), born c. 1818 in Newspynie, Morayshire, and his wife Ann. I did a bit of digging to see if this William was a relative (Duncan is not listed as a relative on the census, just a sheepboy/servant) but I don't think I found anything conclusive. I'll find the information and post later...
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I found the birth of William and Ann's son, John Clark Mitchell (24th Nov. 1850), which gave me the mother's maiden name - Hutcheson.
I subsequently found death certificates for both Ann Hutcheson/Mitchell and William Mitchell. William's death certificate (1876, Hempriggs, Alves, Moray) reveals that he was illegitimate - reputed father William Mitchell and mother Ann Melvin subsequently Anderson.
I think I'm probably just confusing things!
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Hello George aka scotdownsouth..
I found your posts on RootsChat simply by googling my ancestors Elspet Mitchell and James McIntosh. Thomas Mitchell and Janet/Jessie Burgess are my great-great-great-great grandparents!
That's an amazing turn up for the book!! I will PM you so we may be able to exchange details further.
George
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Ah, yes, I could have told you there are both a Dallas and a Duffus. Very confusing!
If Thomas Mitchell and Janet/Jessie Burgess had three or more children, it does strengthen the evidence for there having been a marriage. It is unusual for a couple to have three illegitimate children, but not impossible.
My latest research indicates they had at least 3 children
David b. 20 Aug 1827
Alexander b. 19 Apr 1831
Eslpet b. 4 Jan 1834
all born in Cummingston Morayshire.
George
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There's just one possible clue - in the 1871 census, James and Elspet's son Duncan was working for/living with a William Mitchell ("farmer of 222 Ac of which 122 Ac Able employing 5 lab 3 boy"), born c. 1818 in Newspynie, Morayshire, and his wife Ann. I did a bit of digging to see if this William was a relative (Duncan is not listed as a relative on the census, just a sheepboy/servant) but I don't think I found anything conclusive.
To be honest I have not researched very much into James and Elspets family as yet. I am concentrating on the moment on finding info about Elspets (and David/Alexanders) parents Thomas and Janet/Jessie but obviously there may be some info to be gleaned from any details regarding them. I have Elspets death cert from 1899 but it just confirms her parents as Thomas Mitchell, Labourer (deceased) and Jessie Mitchell m.s. Burgess (deceased)
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Well I guess that brings this one to completion as I now have found the answer to my original query. Many Thanks to all who helped but still no trace of the elusive Thomas Mitchell although I have had limited success with Janet Burgess. Happy New Year to all.
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I'd be interested in anything anyone knows about Janet/Jessie Burgess in case she turns out to be one of mine. I have been collecting all information about any Burgesses in Moray/Banffshire for decades.
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If I uncover any further information I will let you know.
Current situation is we know that Thomas Mitchell and Janet Burgess had 3 children as listed above (David Alexander and Elspet all born in Cummingston) the 1841 census places Janet (45) and Elspet (7) in Cummingston Village Duffus Morayshire but then the trail goes cold, although there is a Janet Burgess listed in the 1851 census still in Cummingston but now aged 64(?) and living with William Scott and his wife Isobel Henderson and their 2 children. This Janet Burgess is listed as widowed and a pauper on the Poors Board. That is as much as I know at present.
George
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Thank you. I'll look forward to hearing more from you then.