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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Kildare => Topic started by: wincklers on Sunday 20 September 09 16:22 BST (UK)
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I am looking for any information on Thomas Bell. Two of his daughters married (1) John Montgomery of Naas and (2) Thomas Park. The son of John - also John Montgomery - married Mary Park, daughter of Thomas Park.
According to the "Reminiscences of John Montgomery" (my greatx4 grandfather) Thomas Bell was 'judge of the County of Kildare'.
John Montgomery, son of John M and Mary Park, was born on 12 August 1803 in Dublin, Ireland. John immigrated to South Africa as one of the 1820 Settlers. He married Susanna van Zyl and they had 14 children.
John's father died in 1815. In +/- 1837 he brought his mother, Mary Park, to South Africa. She remained in South Africa until her death in 1852. John also located his sister Maria and her husband, George Henry Coleman, in India where he was bandmaster for one of the regiments. He brought them to SA as well.
After that he searched for his elder brother, Henry, whom he also located in India. Henry and his family also moved to South Africa.
Any information would be greatly appreciated.
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Hi I have lots of information on the origins of John Montgomery the 1820 settler who wrote his memoirs.
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Would you be willing to share with me?
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Hi I am also a descendant of John Montgomery the Settler and am really struggling with who John Montgomery of Naas Parents, grandparents and great grandparents were can any body help
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Have you looked for other threads?
e.g.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=697899.9
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=402793.0
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I have read the existing threads but it is clear as mud.
John Montgomery of Naas married Anne Faulkner in 1770 at the age of 23 which means that he was born in 1747.
There seems to be no record of a marraige to a Bell girl
The John Montgomery son of Hercules and Jane born 1693 would have been 44 at the time John of Naas was born
There are other conflicting statements
My grandfather came over from Scotland in company with two of his brothers, who settled in the north of Ireland where they carried on large manufactories.
My grandfather settled in the county of Meath, where he built the mills of Naas.
He had three daughters, who at his death opened a boarding school in St. Steven's Green.
Among the Faulkner family papers at Castledown, Co Carlow, is a certificate of marriage between Anne Nancy Faulkner and John Montgomery of Crumlin, Co Antrim, a gentleman aged 23.
They were married on the 23 November 1770.
John had a flour mill at Oldtown Naas, Co Kildare.
Also The only John Montgomery born to John of Naas died at a young age
Is there a record of the linnage traced by William Bethan from Hugh Montgomery and Livinia Jane Hunckle
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I have read the existing threads but it is clear as mud.
John Montgomery of Naas married Anne Faulkner in 1770 at the age of 23 which means that he was born in 1747.
There seems to be no record of a marraige to a Bell girl
The John Montgomery son of Hercules and Jane born 1693 would have been 44 at the time John of Naas was born
There are other conflicting statements
My grandfather came over from Scotland in company with two of his brothers, who settled in the north of Ireland where they carried on large manufactories.
My grandfather settled in the county of Meath, where he built the mills of Naas.
He had three daughters, who at his death opened a boarding school in St. Steven's Green.
Among the Faulkner family papers at Castledown, Co Carlow, is a certificate of marriage between Anne Nancy Faulkner and John Montgomery of Crumlin, Co Antrim, a gentleman aged 23.
They were married on the 23 November 1770.
John had a flour mill at Oldtown Naas, Co Kildare.
Also The only John Montgomery born to John of Naas died at a young age
Is there a record of the linnage traced by William Bethan from Hugh Montgomery and Livinia Jane Hunckle
There is!
That was his first Marriage. Her father was Hercules, Governer of Derry
Their son Hercules Montgomery married Jane McNeil, dau of Archibald, Chancellor of Down Cathedral. Their son John b.1693 seems to have been ostracized from family.
John b.1693 had son Wm b.1717 who married Sarah Hardy, and their son John, b.1744 married Anne Faulkner, he died 1803, 10 children, Andrew* (married Rebecca Aiken) , John (1) , Colville, John (2), Samuel, Wm (d.1796) , Hugh (d.1804), Robert (d.1803) Ann, and Catherine.
Andrew* who married Rebecca Aiken had John, Samuel, Wm, Robert and Cath
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Also The only John Montgomery born to John of Naas died at a young age
Incorrect!
The first John died young....they had a second one.
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Now it it is starting to make sense, many thanks
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I do apologize! ;D ;D
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No need any help is gratefully received but who did John born 1693 marry. Was it the Bell girl
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It doesn't say....
Did his father Hercules leave a Will?
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I have no idea anybody else !!!!!
In the meantime I have left an unknown in the tree
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They are very complicated.... Hugh M son of Hercules Montgomery married a Ms Willoughby and he had to take her name, Mr Willoughby. They had "Willoughby" children.
I gave up on them! ;D
Elizabeth "Willoughby" marrying here is daughter of Hugh "Montgomery" Willoughby ;D ;D
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Source https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSHW-ZS4V-Z?i=460&cat=185720
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Dear Monty
Thanks for raising this most fascinating family to which I have devoted a considerable amount of time and research. I have been to study the Faulkner Papers at the National Library in Dublin and have made some interesting discoveries. One of the main ones is that you can't trust memoirs! As always they have some truth, some fiction and some half remembered or misunderstood facts.
Having looked extensively but unsuccessfully for the Bell sisters I have come to the conclusion that they were invented to cover up a couple of illegitimacies which have come to light through studying primary documents. (However they may still come to light in some other related role, who knows?)
The main facts that you have been given are correct, however I do not believe that Nancy Faulkner was the mother of our John the Settler's father. Having looked at letters and documents relating to John of Naas, I believe that neither of his sons called John was the Settler's father. The first son, John died in infancy, and this is testified to in that early letters refer to the second son Samuel as the eldest. The second John Burgh died in prison as a notorious criminal - he was definitely not the Settler's father. Therefore I believe that the settler's father may have been the illegitimate son of John of Naas' sister Betty, who may have been brought up and educated 'to the Law' by John of Naas and who may have encouraged his son, John the settler, to call John of Naas Grandfather.
Betty's child is referred to in a letter written about John of Naas three years before his marriage, and does not appear in any of the documents relating to the family at The Knocks where John of Naas and Nancy Faulkner lived. To me this is the most likely person to be John the Settler's father.
As for the earlier John born 1693, apparently he became a Quaker, which is why he was disinherited. I don't know any more about his family yet, except that they were associated with his Hunckes Quaker cousins. His son William b. 1717, father of John of Naas, was a colourful character. He became ill and his wife left him, he was seduced by Sarah Hardy of Loughgall and the couple eloped and settled in Derryloran where John of Naas was born (illegitimately). The Faulkner family were somewhat dismayed when their daughter Nancy wanted to marry John of Naas, understandably with that background, so they seem to have reinvented him after three years as being 'of Crumlin', where there was a large Montgomery family of notable origins. Interestingly though, the Crumlin Montgomerys traced their coat of arms from a different branch. John of Naas seems to have followed the Ballyleck Montgomery crest, who were cousins of his.
It is a fascinating family with much more to find out, a number of ‘gateway’ ancestors, stately homes to visit, some famous descendants and many back stories. I can email you my write up so far, please contact me if you'd like to ask any questions.
Mary
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Our Montgomerys are descended from Hugh Montgomery (known as Hugh Ballylessan Montgomery to distinguish him from a number of other Hugh Montgomerys) who was the son of George Montgomery , brother of the 2nd Viscount Montgomery of the Great Ards. George’s father was 1st Viscount and one of the leaders of the Plantation of Ulster. This very prominent and important family is described in The Montgomery Manuscripts by William Montgomery of Rosemount, writing in 1696 – 1706. https://archive.org/details/montgomerymanusc00montuoft . This author was cousin of Hugh of Ballylessan Montgomery so knew the family personally and was writing a contemporary account. The account goes right back to the founding of the settlement in Ulster in the times of the Plantation in 1603.
Hugh married, first, Lavinia Mary Hunckes, only daughter of Col Hercules Hunckes. Their son was Hercules, after his mother’s father, who married Jane McNeill. It is this branch of the family that we are descended from. There were Hunckes living near John of Naas who called him ‘cousin’. (Col Hunckes has a fascinating story as he was one of those responsible for killing Charles I when Cromwell gave the order to have him killed, so he was known as ‘the regicide’. However, he apparently refused the order to kill the king so was subsequently pardoned. The Hunckes, later Hanks, family is a fascinating one and Abraham Lincoln’s mother was a Hanks.).
Hugh Ballylessan married, secondly, the widow of Lord Blaney, who was also related to and the widow of Hugh Willoughby of Carrow. He took the name of Willoughby to inherit his wife’s family manor house and lands of Carrow (a large estate in Co Fermanagh). His son Hugh Willoughby married a daughter of Earl Erne of Crom Castle on the banks of Loch Erne http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/crom . One of their daughters, Elizabeth, married into the family of the first Baron Mountflorence of Florence Court , John Cole, http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/florence-court ; Another daughter, Catherine, married Alexander Montgomery of Ballyleck, also associated with the Cole family. From https://moultray.wordpress.com/tag/ballyleck/ : “Colonel Alexander Montgomery m. Elizabeth daughter and heiress of Colonel Thomas Cole of Ballyleck prior to 1696 and died march 25th 1722 leaving several children. It was probably early in this century that Alexander and his cousin appeared to have disused the Hessilheid arms and to have adopted the shield of the Montgomeries as carried by the Earls of Eglington, adding thereto instead of the Scottish crest an arm in armor the hand grasping a broken spear and for a motto instead of the Scottish “Guarde Bien”, the new words “Patrise Infelici Fedelis”. “
(This is the coat of arms and crest used by John Montgomery of Naas as seen in his house at The Knocks. This suggests that his father William was in touch with his cousins and adopted the Ballyleck version of the crest.)
The third daughter married Cromwell Price, and their daughter married a McNeill cousin, descendent of Hercules and Jane.
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Hercules M who married Jane Mc Neil was "Hercules M of Ballylissan" so was her mother Ann McNeill nee Montgomery?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSN1-JSD4?i=474&cat=185720
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Hercules’ wife was called Jane McNeill, and her daughter (and sister to our John b. 1693) was Anne b. 1695, who married another McNeill, probably a cousin. Her son Roger lived at New Grove in 1759 after her death in 1758, an old manor house which is probably built on the site of the original manor house of Drumbrackley, where George Montgomery built his house after the manor of Drumbrackley was granted to him by his older brother the 2nd Viscount Montgomery of the Great Ardes in 1639. Ballycairn The name of the townland is recorded as Balle-Carne al. Drumbrackley in 1623. The alias name Drumbrackley appears to derive from Irish Droim Breaclaigh ‘ridge of the speckled place’. There is a rath on a low hill overlooking the Lagan at New Grove in the north-west of the townland. http://www.placenamesni.org/resultdetails.php?entry=10820 .
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also
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH3-M781-1?i=116&cat=185720
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Hercules’ wife was called Jane McNeill, and her daughter (and sister to our John b. 1693) was Anne b. 1695, who married another McNeill, probably a cousin. Her son Roger lived at New Grove in 1759 after her death in 1758, an old manor house which is probably built on the site of the original manor house of Drumbrackley, where George Montgomery built his house after the manor of Drumbrackley was granted to him by his older brother the 2nd Viscount Montgomery of the Great Ardes in 1639. Ballycairn The name of the townland is recorded as Balle-Carne al. Drumbrackley in 1623. The alias name Drumbrackley appears to derive from Irish Droim Breaclaigh ‘ridge of the speckled place’. There is a rath on a low hill overlooking the Lagan at New Grove in the north-west of the townland. http://www.placenamesni.org/resultdetails.php?entry=10820 .
so was her mother Ann McNeill nee Montgomery?
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I don't know who Jane McNeil's mother was. Ann McNeill was Hercules and Jane's daughter. She was Ann Montgomery and she married a McNeill, probably a cousin on her mother's side of the family.
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New Grove house, the ancestral manor, is advertised here: https://search.savills.com/property-detail/gbbfrdduc180230
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also
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH3-M781-1?i=116&cat=185720
I can't log into this, sorry. Can you post a picture please?
Thanks
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I don't know who Jane McNeil's mother was. Ann McNeill was Hercules and Jane's daughter. She was Ann Montgomery and she married a McNeill, probably a cousin on her mother's side of the family.
Hercules Montgomery of Sheepland married Jane McNeil, dau of Archibald, Chancellor of Down Cathedral.... it was Jane's mother I was asking about
116&cat=185720
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It certainly looks like Jane McNeil, dau of Archibald, Chancellor of Down Cathedral that her mother was also a Montgomery... which is about normal ;D
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJW-C9X6-L?i=323&cat=185720
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These are interesting. I think they relate to Ann McNeill, daughter of Hercules and Jane, and her son Roger. I can't see any reference to Jane's mother being a Montgomery though?
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Ann Montgomery was the mother.
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I have been looking at the transcripts that you have referred to above. I believe that all these references to Ann McNeill nee Montgomery refer to the daughter of Jane and Hercules Montgomery, who married Hector McNeill and inherited the estates from her parents. There appears to have been a dispute between her sons John and Roger? I remember reading about this at some stage.
Interesting that they start to refer to themselves as McNeill Montgomery . There seems to have been a lot of changes to and combinations of surnames in those days when inheriting land and money.
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I am a little late to this thread.
I have recently found out that I share YDNA with Captain Thomas Butler who led the Irish settlers out to South Africa in 1820. I am not a descendant of Captain Thomas Butler rather my Kildare Butler line and Thomas's line share a common Ancestor.
I have read through John Montgonerys book and to paraphase John he writes his mother Mary Parkes born 1762 and the wife of Captain Thomas Butler, Elizabeth, grew up together. I have Sarah Parkes Nee Boakes death as 29 Aug 1750 from Quaker records, if this is correct she cannot be the mother of Mary Parkes born 1762, even if the the death date is incorrect Sarah Parkes Nee Boakes would have been 50 years old when Mary was born.
I am told that Mary was brought up by her sister Margery Park and her husband Ephraim Boake, an interesting marriage as Margery is Ephraim Boake's niece, again the quaker records. If Ephraim Boake and Magery did bring up Mary then that puts Mary in the same area as Elizabeth the wife of Captain Thomas Butler and brings credence to Johns book.
I am interested in the Christian Name of the daughter of Thomas Bell who married Thomas Parke of Baranstown, Wicklow or any additional information.
This is an extreamly interesting bit of research
https://www.1820settlers.com/genealogy/settlershowparty.php?party=Butler
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I think it was Sarah Boake 1712 to 1812
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I think it was Sarah Boake 1712 to 1812
Sarah Boake was, I think, Thomas Parkes first wife, in the Quaker records it does say “Sarah Boake wife of Thomas Parke died 29 Aug 1750“.
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I went into this extensively some years ago, and am still finding out more about this remarkable family. This is my summary of my findings about Mary Park's family: Mary’s father was Thomas Parke of Raheen, County Wicklow. He died in Baltinglass (no date given but probably soon after Mary’s birth in 1762) as a prosperous farmer with a large herd of cattle. He had stood surety for a colleague who ran off with taxes, and Thomas was held to account. As his cattle were being driven off he had a stroke and died before his wife came home to reassure him that Lord Aldborough and his brother Captain Stratford had told her not to worry about it. His wife lived until 98. Mary’s mother was Sarah Boake born in 1712. She married Thomas Parke who was originally of Barranstown in 1731. She was 50 when Mary was born, the last of a big family, and after her father died Mary went to live with her older sister Margery who had married their uncle Ephraim Boake. (This of course was highly irregular, although they were of similar age and more like cousins, and Ephraim was ‘excommunicated’ from his Quaker community because of it). Margery and Ephraim Boake brought up Mary at Boakfield House. Mary’s mother features in John’s reminiscences as the grandmother dressed all in black who died at his family home aged 98.
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Captain Thomas Butler's wife was Elizabeth Hanks (Hunckes) so was a cousin of the Montgomerys. Perhaps that's why they agreed to let John Montgomery tag onto their group when it left Baltinglass on their way to emigrate to the Cape.
I have come to the conclusion that the 'daughters of Thomas Bell' were invented by John Montgomery the Settler or by his father or grandfather to cover up a couple of illegitimacies which have come to light in my research, ie. that of John Montgomery of Naas, the settler's 'grandfather', and the Settler's father himself, who I believe was not a son of John of Naas, but rather his nephew. There is no evidence of the 'daughters of Thomas Bell' on either side of the family.
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Mimble
Thank you very much for the reply, I think our research maybe along the same lines and quite close
I have Thomas Butlers wife as Elizabeth Lapham, there are a lot of connections between the Laphams and the Butlers, Thomas Butler even gets "his good Friend Joseph Lapham of Cork street" to pay the journey money for the Settlers to travel out to SA. I think Elizabeth Lapham had a sister Sarah and she Married Jeremiah Hanks 04 Nov 1794 in the Meath Street Meeting House, Dublin, Ireland.
Sarah Hanks nee Lapham parents are William Lapham and Mary Russel
Both Sarah Hanks and Elizabeth had daughters named Matilda around the same time and Elizabeth had a son Joseph Lapham Butler born 1809 in Wicklow. My other Kildare Butler line also has blood ties with the Laphams
I read the story of taxes and the agent running off with the money and Thomas being held responsible of the loss.
I have not found any daughters for Thomas Bell but I did come across that death record for Sarah Parke nee Boake in the quaker records, I need to revist that record.
I have 8 children + Mary for Thomas Parkes
Elizabeth Butler returned to Ireland in 1827 with her youngest son George she attended Quaker meetings in Endenderry as a non member, she died in 1847 and is buried in Rathangan Kildare Quaker cemetery, I can find no trace of George. When Elizabeth return to Ireland she must have to her family after the terrible experince in SA
I went back to John Mongomery and Elizabeth Faulkner to get a wider view of the Montgomery Line.
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The Lapham letter
Baltinglass 29th October 1819
Sir,
According to your directions in your last letter I have directed my friend Mr. Joseph LAPHAM of Cork Street, Dublin to forward to the Treasury in London one hundred and twenty two pounds ten shillings being the amount of my deposit for bringing out ten families to the new settlements in Africa. As I have some things yet to dispose of and other arrangements to make you will serve me materially by letting me know when tis probable the fleet will sail and if it is at Cork my party and myself will be picked up.
I have the honour to be most obediently yours
Thos. BUTLER
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Thanks PJB, I'm always looking out for more information on this family. She must have been Elizabeth Lapham, sister of Sarah Hanks.
It's interesting to see where the Memoirs are accurate and where misinformation has crept in. From my summary: "The reminiscences of John Montgomery say that his mother Mary Parke was born 'on her father's estate, Ephraim Park in Raheine [Raheen] Baltinglass.' The memoirs are only partly right, as memoirs often are. 'Ephraim Park', where she is supposed to have been born, is not the name of her birthplace but of her brother who is named after his uncle Ephraim Boak."
Please send me you email address if you'd like to read what I've written up on the Parkes and Boakes.
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Message sent
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Does anybody have access to the Quaker records or can add information to the following
Nothing is yet known about John Montgomery born 1693 Williams father because it is believed that he became a Quaker and was disinherited because of it
The Quakers are known to have kept detailed records but these have not yet been examined for details about John Montgomery or his son William
His son William ended up living at Ardress House in Loughgall. His mother may have been related to the Clarke family or he may have been taken in by his Cole relatives who were also connected to the Clarke family of Loughgall. There are a number of ways William could have ended up, possibly as an orphan, at Ardress House in about 1737.
William Montgomerys first wife apparently left him
Currently there are no details of Williams first wife
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I am even later to this thread but wanted to chime in to mention that I am a descendant of Ephraim & Margery through their daughter Abigail who unfortunately married and then passed away 2 weeks after giving birth to her only child, a son named Francis Boake Carter. She was only 17. Her husband was William Carter "a person of much respectability, advancing to the middle period of life. He kept an eminent china shop in Grafton Street" (in Dublin I believe). His grief was apparently such that he never remarried and my 4th ggrandfather Francis Boake Carter was his only child. I've not been able to establish who William Carters parents were sadly.
Unlike most quaker families of the time who are meticulously recorded, as mentioned Margery was Ephraims niece so they were no longer welcome at meetings and their lives were sadly not as well documented. I'm not sure of the discrepancy regarding the age of Sarah Boake when she supposedly had her daughter Mary as I've not really looked into that side of the family at this stage, I don't recall hearing/reading Margery & Ephraim had raised Mary so that's very interesting to learn.
The family are mentioned in Mary Leadbeater Shackeltons "Annals of Ballitore", where she actually writes of the death of Ephraims daughter Abigail. I read it a few years ago now so not sure if it mentions the Butlers or Bells as I was mainly keen to find the parts that concerned Ephraim but it is an interesting read. The Quakers are fascinating and given how large many of the families are and their fondness for using the same names repeatedly, very challenging and time consuming to unravel! :D
I am a little late to this thread.
I have recently found out that I share YDNA with Captain Thomas Butler who led the Irish settlers out to South Africa in 1820. I am not a descendant of Captain Thomas Butler rather my Kildare Butler line and Thomas's line share a common Ancestor.
I have read through John Montgonerys book and to paraphase John he writes his mother Mary Parkes born 1762 and the wife of Captain Thomas Butler, Elizabeth, grew up together. I have Sarah Parkes Nee Boakes death as 29 Aug 1750 from Quaker records, if this is correct she cannot be the mother of Mary Parkes born 1762, even if the the death date is incorrect Sarah Parkes Nee Boakes would have been 50 years old when Mary was born.
I am told that Mary was brought up by her sister Margery Park and her husband Ephraim Boake, an interesting marriage as Margery is Ephraim Boake's niece, again the quaker records. If Ephraim Boake and Magery did bring up Mary then that puts Mary in the same area as Elizabeth the wife of Captain Thomas Butler and brings credence to Johns book.
I am interested in the Christian Name of the daughter of Thomas Bell who married Thomas Parke of Baranstown, Wicklow or any additional information.
This is an extreamly interesting bit of research
https://www.1820settlers.com/genealogy/settlershowparty.php?party=Butler (https://www.1820settlers.com/genealogy/settlershowparty.php?party=Butler)