RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: johnbhoy on Saturday 26 September 09 21:29 BST (UK)
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Hi All,
has anyone read this book, I purchased it on Amazon today but will not get to read it for another 4 weeks. Does it have the names of all German pork butchers who came to Britain, I'm looking for Christian Frederick Wall who came to Britain in the late 1890's and opened his business in Carlisle.
Regards
John :)
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I wonder if you've seen that a Christian Frederick Wall died in 1940 in Carlisle:
http://www.carlisleshistory.co.uk/page17.htm
Also, a Christian Frederick Wall was born 1902 in Carlisle (BMD)
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Good Morning Gill and thank you for your reply.
I did have Christian Frederick Wall (son) birth certificate 1902 which is where I noted that his father Christian Frederick Wall's profession, was a pork butcher - thank you.
I didn't know about that cemetry site, that is a wonderfull piece of news, as his wife Mary (nee Dixon) is also mentioned on the same head stone (375/26). Now that I have a date of they're sunset, I may now get further into my research for Christian Frederick and see if I have better success this time on the National Archives, for his naturilization papers (Mary was born in Bewcastle, Cumberland) or a passenger list and BMD.
This wee project is a labour of love, as my wife Gillian, may be one of the last of Christian Frederick's relatives living in the UK (though he did have 2 daughters Williama and Gertrude).
Thanks again Gill
John :)
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By the way Gill, thanks to you, I have now ordered up Christian Frederick Wall death cert, so hopefully it may assist in recording the names of his parents or his birth town in Germany
Thanks
John :)
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-Hi John,
My Great Grandfather was German, and a pork butcher. The first record of him is in Scarborough in 1896, then he tuns up in Carlisle on the 1901 census, working as a Pork Butcher (manager). I'm having huge problems trying to find information (any) about him and I wondered if you have any information of your relatives butchers' shop in Carlisle? It would be a wonderful co-incidence if my great grandfather worked for your relative!
Thanks
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Hey Ali,
I don't have too much to go on yet, I'm waiting for a death cert to arrive (should take about 14 days), and then I will take it from there.
Also, I've ordered a book by Sue Gibbons on German Pork Butchers.
Do you want to PM me the name of you GGF and I'll see if he appears while I'm doing my research. (BTW you have to post a total of 3 posts before you can PM someone).
I would imagine at some stage that Christian Frederick Wall and your relative would know each other in Carlisle.
I will definitely be putting time into looking for this guy (He's actually my wife's GGGF) and I will post any updates or usefull tips to assist anyone
All the Best
John
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Hi John,
That would be great - any info in the search for the needles in the haystacks is very welcome. I don't have much info but more than happy to share.
Ali
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Hi,
Thought it would be easier just to pop the info here. If anyone comes across any of their own research or info info with his name on it, I'd be overjoyed - like most people I'm finding it almost impossible to discover any information.
His name was Henry Cutts - he was a pork butcher/manager by profession and had been in the UK since at least 1896. He was married to an English woman and had a very young family of 4 children. He lived in Scarborough (County of York) , Carlisle and Bishop Auckland in County Durham. Census returns show him to be a German National and also state that he was naturalised in 1904 (though the National Archives don't have any records of this, so that might have been a fib on his behalf!)
He was interned as a civilian on the Isle of Man in WW1 - no info other than he was 'taken away' for several years. His family did travel to the IoM, but I don't know if they ever got through the barbed wire to actually see him.
Fingers crossed,
Bongo Ali
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I'll keep an eye open for him Ali
John
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By the way Gill, thanks to you, I have now ordered up Christian Frederick Wall death cert, so hopefully it may assist in recording the names of his parents or his birth town in Germany
Thanks
John :)
John sorry to disappoint but an English (& Wales) Death certificate show only minimal information:
where and when the deceased died, name and surname, sex, age (or d.o.b.), occupation (or last occupation if retired) and address, and cause of death, along with the signature, description and address of the person giving information about the death, along with when it was registered and the name of the registrar
if the person is a widow it may show her maiden name
the death certificate is issued upto 8 days after death - used to be 5, and acts as a licence for the undertaker to dispose of the body.
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Thanks Toni, I was unaware of that, as about 80% of my family research has been mostly Scottish and I was able to gather valuble information from the Scottish BMD.
As you are aware, sometimes you just get the smallest piece of info and it opens up a whole new search but anyway, it's a labour of love Toni and nobody said it would be easy lol, but I appreciate the feed back and won't be as dissopointed when the death cert arrives.
Ali mentioned below about internment camps, so that's gave me something else to ponder
Many Thanks for your reply
John ;)
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Hi,
There's some excellent info and background details on this website - search using 'WW1 Internment Camp at Knockaloe' and it should take you direct. Knockaloe was the internment camp on the Isle of Man where I think my ggfather was imprisoned, but there were many others all around the UK.
Ali
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Thanks Ali, I'm having a real dig into internment camps on the IOM and Isslington, I wish the NA were more user friendly though lol. Not to sure if CF Wall would be interned as he was married to an English woman and had 3 English born children by the time of 1914, but you never know
Thanks a lot Ali
John :)
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Do you think Wall could be an anglicised version of his surname ?
Was he naturalised ? or an alien? either way records should be at TNA
My Grandad wasn't naturalised , it was too expensive, so he had to sign on at the local police station weekly for a number of years even after he was married until the Police said he didnt need to anymore, I wonder where these records would be held.
in Victorian times it was ok to have a German surname but later and especially towards the war years it became seen as .... er ..... not a good thing and names were changed.
Saxo coburg to Windsor for one.
Ps i don't think he was Jewish. re the Pork. it sometimes helps to know religious denomination.
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Hi John,
My GGF was interned despite having married (2) English women (first wife died) and having 4 small children by 1914 all in England.
Also, the entry on the 1911 census states my GGF was naturalised in 1904 - though there are no records of this in NA at Kew - this may be my failure to use their search system properly, or he may have made an understandable fib in an attempt to protect himself and his family!
I've also had another look at the 1901 census entry (when my GGF was in Carlisle working in the Butchers), and on the same page, same street, in a different house there is another butcher (Issac Thompson) living there. Possibly a co-incidence - who knows?
Ali
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Toni,
I don't think so but then again, I'm not 100% sure if the surname has been anglacised, as I have found a Christian Frederick Wall on a passenger ship list out of Hamburg on the ancestry.de (German) website. There is a 5 years age difference, though that doesn't really count for much as we now know these days.
There are German surnames such as Wahl that are from the area where many pork butchers were from in Wurttenburg, so there may be a possibility and obviously the 'Saxe Coburg Gothe' always alerts me to the fact that the name may be anglacised.
I'm unsure of Christian Fredericks religion, I know that my wifes father was Protestant (Christian Fredericks grandson), but it's an avenue I never thought of looking over, which is rather ignorant of me as I thought most of unified Germany was RC. (forgot about the Lutherans).
Unbelievable that your Grandad had to report to a police station, I learn something new everyday and my wife is now getting really interested in searching for her German roots, thanks for sharing that.
Best Regards
John :)
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Ali,
I find that astonishing that your GGF was interned even though he had an English wife AND 4 English born children, facinating but astonished also.
Iv'e had a look on the 1901 census but do not see any other pork butchers living on the same street, which was Etterby Street in 1901, and then they moved to Dixon Street in 1902.
John
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Hi John,
My GGF lived in Court Street in Carlisle.
It's incredulous to even begin to comprehend how people were simply 'taken away' - for years in my GGF's case, isn't it. Even worse to think the dreadful situation it left his English wife and 4 kids in - no welfare state to look after them in those days, and anti-German fervour being whipped up on a daily basis. No doubt a few bricks thru windows!
Also, I've been advised (by a Jewish relative), that I shouldn't assume just because he was a Pork Butcher that he wouldn't have been Jewish - it's possible he was simply a non-kosher Jew (my sister in law is!).
Like your wife, I'm becoming more and more drawn into the wonderful world of finding out about my roots - however frustrating it is.
Good luck with all of our combined efforts!
Ali
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Ali,
It is so sad what happened to your GGF and his family, and as mentioned, possible bricks through the windows etc, and in the victorian/edwardian era, the 'stigma' must have been unbearable for the family.
A German Jew is something that I have not even thought about yet!!! Again, I was just taking it for granted that most of these guys were coming to the UK to escape compulsory military service & with the 'pork butcher' tag, Judism is something I would not have thought. Very interesting indeed!!!
I get back to the UK in 2 weeks (work 28 days on / off on the rigs) and will be researching the pork butcher's book with gusto. I hope we all find some little piece of our jigsaws soon, and more importantly, there is a happy outcome, as some of these people were dealt a bad hand through no fault of their own
Best Regards Ali
John
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One thing about the Royal Family (that is largely forgotten) is that when they changed their name, Britain was being Blitzed by German long range heavy bombers...The Gotha
Here is a quote from a book I have...
"There was a pork butchers shop on Spring Bank, Kress and Wagners. They were from Germany. There were a lot of German Pork Butchers in England at the time, and quite a number in Hull. Rumours went around that Kress and Wagner were spies and, in fact I was one of the lads that went and stoned the shop; a big gang of us under the tress that lined Spring Bank, chucking big stones through the windows."
A certain newspaper carried anti German messages, and told people to refuse to be served by German or Austrian waiters, and if they said they were Swiss, to ask to see their passports. One Swiss waiter was taken to Scotland Yard in the belief that he had been drawing plans of military instillations...It was it transpired a plan of the tables in the restaurant dining room!
The name of the newspaper?? The Daily Mail!
There was a certain "spy phobia", and this went along with the weird war stories and hysteria that gripped the nation, where every stranger, and odd looking chap (mainly those with beards!) were chased after by children shouting "you're a German Spy!!"
The Irish of course were deemed to be in league with the Germans, and shouts of "Irish German Spy" were not uncommon!!!
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A contemporary WW1 cartoon....
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Excellent ! That one cartoon illustrated to my young son just how/why the changes were made!
On a more serious and darker note - a link to (I think) the Quakers' humanitarian involvement to wives and families of interned civilians. Makes the cartoon all the more understandible.
http://www.manxnotebook.com/fulltext/sh1920/ch07.htm
Re the anti-german fervour - I'm sure that I've also read somewhere on this site, the story about a mob, who had been heavily influenced by the press of the day, who surrounded a pub demanding that the 2 germans lodging there were turfed out, 'enemy in our midst' type of situation. Turned out the 2 chaps were country yokels from Bristol and their rather thick accents had been mistaken!
And we think the 'Daily Mail' type of journalism and scaremongering is new......
Continued good luck everyone.
Alison
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Scrimnet, I learn something new everyday and I thought I had a very good grasp on history. I was unaware that the airship was the 'Gotha', thanks for that.
As for the 'mails' cartoon, at first glance, I thought I was looking at a 1938 Nazi cartoon about 'Der Juden'.............appauling, sensationalist, lazy journalism.
It's fine to be patriotic for one's country, as that is a love of one's country, but to be a Nationalist, is to hate another's country.
As for the 'Irish' slur, well nothing new there and doesn't surprise me one bit.
Great post Scrimnet
John
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Hey Alison, thank God for people like the SSFD and others such as the Womans International League!
Noticed the Daily Mail was up to it's usual jingolistic reporting and also the Evening Times, which is a very poor paper at the best of times. I googled the term 'yellow papers' that was mentioned in the report, with the result...downmarket, unethical reporting...say no more. ::)
I was aware of the government utilizing ships in the past, such as the Maidstone for housing Irish republican suspects, but was unaware of the 'Alien' re- German/Austrian/Hungarian civilians (even after 30 years + in the UK) being interned on ships, and as per your previous post, the distress must have been unbearable for many and the family's.
Did you notice that there were still internees on the IOM in 1919?
Another great post Alison
John :)
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Scrimnet, I learn something new everyday and I thought I had a very good grasp on history. I was unaware that the airship was the 'Gotha', thanks for that.
As for the 'mails' cartoon, at first glance, I thought I was looking at a 1938 Nazi cartoon about 'Der Juden'.............appauling, sensationalist, lazy journalism.
It's fine to be patriotic for one's country, as that is a love of one's country, but to be a Nationalist, is to hate another's country.
As for the 'Irish' slur, well nothing new there and doesn't surprise me one bit.
Great post Scrimnet
John
Actually the Gotha's were heavy bomber aircraft, not the Zeppelins!! ;)
Here's a good bit about the First Blitz...
http://www.firstworldwar.com/airwar/bombers_gotha_giant.htm
And the cartoon came from Punch...I have the full lot from 1914-1916
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Two points:
1) Anybody who has ever been to a german supermarket, will have seen the array of sausages and hams ("1001 ways to process a pig") there. So a "german" pork butcher would probably be much more specialised than an english pork butcher.
2) to the topic-within-a-topic: My mother fled from Austria to Britain as a refuge from the Hitler-regime in 1938, but in 1965 she was still getting the anti-german treatment, because of her accent.
Bob
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Scrimnet, I learn something new everyday and I thought I had a very good grasp on history. I was unaware that the airship was the 'Gotha', thanks for that.
As for the 'mails' cartoon, at first glance, I thought I was looking at a 1938 Nazi cartoon about 'Der Juden'.............appauling, sensationalist, lazy journalism.
It's fine to be patriotic for one's country, as that is a love of one's country, but to be a Nationalist, is to hate another's country.
As for the 'Irish' slur, well nothing new there and doesn't surprise me one bit.
Great post Scrimnet
John
Actually the Gotha's were heavy bomber aircraft, not the Zeppelins!! ;)
Here's a good bit about the First Blitz...
http://www.firstworldwar.com/airwar/bombers_gotha_giant.htm
And the cartoon came from Punch...I have the full lot from 1914-1916
OK, thanks for clearing that up scrimnet, much appreciated :)
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No probs mate....! ;D
The German bombing of Britain in WW1 has been largely forgotten...
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Two points:
1) Anybody who has ever been to a german supermarket, will have seen the array of sausages and hams ("1001 ways to process a pig") there. So a "german" pork butcher would probably be much more specialised than an english pork butcher.
2) to the topic-within-a-topic: My mother fled from Austria to Britain as a refuge from the Hitler-regime in 1938, but in 1965 she was still getting the anti-german treatment, because of her accent.
Bob
Bob, I can believe that, because when I was at school in the early 70's, one of our teachers (Mrs Turner) had fled the Nazis during WW2 from Holland. She had a very thick accent and therefore, the 'uneducated' at our school would call her 'Fritz'!!!? :-\ ....and if there was an Irish relief teacher, well it was just 'open season' for the neanderthals ::) :P
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No probs mate....! ;D
The German bombing of Britain in WW1 has been largely forgotten...
Yes your right, but I do recall a program about someones Grandmother / GGM dying in a zeppelin raid, it may have been on one of the WDYTYA programs ??? Going to have to rack my brain now :D
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Hi John,
My GGF was interned despite having married (2) English women (first wife died) and having 4 small children by 1914 all in England.
Also, the entry on the 1911 census states my GGF was naturalised in 1904 - though there are no records of this in NA at Kew - this may be my failure to use their search system properly, or he may have made an understandable fib in an attempt to protect himself and his family!
I've also had another look at the 1901 census entry (when my GGF was in Carlisle working in the Butchers), and on the same page, same street, in a different house there is another butcher (Issac Thompson) living there. Possibly a co-incidence - who knows?
Ali
Alison,
I knew I was missing something and I remembered your above post about the 1911 census. I was unaware that there was access to the 1911 census, as when tracing my own side of the family, I was using mostly Scottish / Irish sites.
Anyway I found my wifes GGGF Christian Frederick Wall in 1911, he had moved from Carlisle 2 years previously and was living in Lancaster. He had 7 children, but also, he was working for the co operative as a pork butcher.
Now Ive got to find out if he was ever interned and when / why did he move back to Carlisle?
Also, the census does give his nationality as German, BUT also says Württenberg, which is a great find and confirms about what is mostly written about these guys, coming from that district in Germany. (also says 1885? don't know what that's about as he was born in 1872 ???)
I would have attached the 1911 census paper, but can't get it below 500kb
Thanks Again Alison, much appreciated
John :)
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Hi,
That's great - hope I have some similar luck re mine!
Just a thought, because he was working for the Co-Op, I wonder if, because they were such a big, established employer, if they have any archived records they could share with you ? Perhaps worth a try?
Alison
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I've emailed the co-op and I'll see what reply I get, probably will be told that I'm a madman and should get a life ;D
Going back to one of your original posts Alison, you mentioned the name Issac Thompson, who was also a butcher.
Now I know Thompson is not a Hebrew name, but Issac is, and it's Hebrew for Issachar, unlike the English equivalent that is spelt with two A's - Isaac (as in Newton etc etc).
Probably putting 2 and 2 together and gettin 5, but maybe a small coincidence if your relative was possibly Jewish and they were both butchers in the same street?
All the Best Ali
John :)
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Hi,
That's great - hope I have some similar luck re mine!
Just a thought, because he was working for the Co-Op, I wonder if, because they were such a big, established employer, if they have any archived records they could share with you ? Perhaps worth a try?
Alison
Hi Alison,
I was trawling through the websites on google and came across a butchers in Burnley (they have 3 shops in the town), whose descendent's had a well established pork butchers shop in Carlisle from the 1870's onwards.
They are called Haffners and I have emailed them to see if they have any past history of that shop and it's employees, including the names of Christian Frederick Wall & your GF, Henry Cutts from 1896 onwards (is that ok?).
It's a long shot I know, but worth a try. They have a family history on their web page, which includes the anti German feelings during WW1, which got so bad, that when his 3 sons were on leave from the trenches, they stood behind the counter in uniform to shame the locals.
By the way, did Henry Cutts ever anglicize his name, as there are a pork butchers in Lincoln, also from German descent, but they are called Curtis? Just a thought.
One note of interest from the war years, is that, before The King changed his name to Windsor, and also before HG Wells wrote to the king to register his concern of the Germanic SCG name, a Labour MP had stood up in the house and addressed the king as a 'German Pork Butcher'........... ::) :-\ :P
John :)
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Hi John,
No problem at all sending Henry's info - 2 heads must be better than one in the mammoth trawl that is finding your family tree, especially when it's as elusive as ours is turning out to be!!
I honestly have no idea if my Henry anglicised his name - don't know if Cutts is the anglicised version (perhaps Kutz originally??) -absolutely no clue! All of the documentation I've managed to find up to now (1896 is when he first appears in England onwards) he is referred to as Cutts.
Just for the record, me being up at 3am is not usual - just come in from a Hospice fundraising doo and I'll pay the price tomorrow (or later today to be accurate!)
Alison
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OK Ali that's good, I didn't want to overstep the mark.
Hope all goes well with the fund raising doo,was it one of those midnight walks? My wife and eldest daughter done the race for life this year, and my cousin and neices do midnight walks for a hospice down in Crawley.
BTW, I'm in Trinidad just now, so time difference is minus 5 hours behind you guys, so I generally post at stupid o'clock as well :D
John :)
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A reply I received from Svenja........
In the "Southwest Germany Emigration Database" I found six entries with the name "Wall"
four of them were also from Owen, but noone with the name Christian or Frederick and
all of them emigrated in the 1850ies.
http://www.auswanderer-bw.de/auswanderer/index.php?sprache=de&suche=1
Here are all State Archives of the Bundesland Baden-Württemberg:
http://www.landesarchiv-bw.de/web/49435
I think for your research you should look at the Archive in Stuttgart:
http://www.landesarchiv-bw.de/web/49689
Here you can see which documents they have in the archive
by searching in the Findbücher or Findmittel:
http://www.landesarchiv-bw.de/web/46943
I hope this is a help for you.
Regards
Svenja
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My reply...
Svenja,
Many many thanks for the reply. :)
I felt that I was intruding on the young ladies post / thread (George Green), so I made another thread 'German Pork Butchers in Britain'.
I thank you for your reply and will certainly look into the links that you have provided. I'm struggling a bit just now, but with every little help, sometimes a clue to the person appears, and I would really like to know about Christian and his struggles in life, as after all, if it wasn't for him, my wife wouldn't be here today.
So far I have traced that Christian had 7 children, was a pork butcher in Carlisle and Lancaster (working for the Co-op in 1911). I now know that he is from the Württenberg region and possibly (not 100%) came to the UK in 1885.
I am hoping that he was not interned during 1914-1918, but it is a possibilty and a sad one at that.
So my research continues (it is a labour of love really) but may I take this opportunity Svenja to thank you for your reply, and if I get further along, I'll post it on my thread
Best Regards / Freundliche Grüße
John :)
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Hello again John, and everyone here.
I came to read this thread about German Pork Butchers in Britain, as you told me about your thread, John, so I was curious! No problem about jumping in on my thread at all! The more the merrier!
I hope you find the answers in your researches. It seems a more interesting one than mine. I do not have any knowledge of my GF being interned during WW1 at all. As for him being a Jew, well, that never occurred to me at all! Maybe he was but not actually telling anyone, I will never be able to find out, but it's still an idea.
I wonder if his name is in that book you are reading? Maybe I can buy it myself. You see, I feel a bit cheeky asking for someone to look up things for me. I know posters help one another here but my only tool is my computer, and everyone has one of those, on here! I have read many threads on here and am amazed at the amount of work being done. I feel like a cheat getting something for nothing back in return. So yes, I'll look up that book and buy it! Cheers for now,
Bethgem
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Hi Bethgem, as you said, the more the merrier. I haven't read the book yet as I don't get back to the UK until next week, but any info I find for Ali (Herr Cutts - was he a barber Alison ;) ) or George Green, I will mail you straight away ladies, you can be sure of that
Good Luck
John :)
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I know, a butcher called 'cutts'..... honestly!
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I know, a butcher called 'cutts'..... honestly!
;D lol, that is better than my poor attempt at a joke ;D
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Unbelievable that your Grandad had to report to a police station, I learn something new everyday and my wife is now getting really interested in searching for her German roots, thanks for sharing that.
Best Regards
John :)
My Grandad came here as a displaced person after WW2 (1948) - he was actually born in the Ukraine but taken to Germany in 1940.
I have his details from ITS Bad Arsolen i am now trying to find out about his parents and brother - i have thier names so that is a start and i also have my Grandads p.o.b Bukoweic - now in Poland - at the age of 10 he moved to Zahutyn where he lived until he was taken in early 1940. he was a carpenter by trade.
good luck with your search.
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Unbelievable that your Grandad had to report to a police station, I learn something new everyday and my wife is now getting really interested in searching for her German roots, thanks for sharing that.
Best Regards
John :)
My Grandad came here as a displaced person after WW2 (1948) - he was actually born in the Ukraine but taken to Germany in 1940.
I have his details from ITS Bad Arsolen i am now trying to find out about his parents and brother - i have thier names so that is a start and i also have my Grandads p.o.b Bukoweic - now in Poland - at the age of 10 he moved to Zahutyn where he lived until he was taken in early 1940. he was a carpenter by trade.
good luck with your search.
Your search is coming along well Toni, did you ever find the records for your GD 'signing on' at the police station?
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BTW folks, the sites that Svenja has posted above are very easy to navigate and are in English :)
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Your search is coming along well Toni, did you ever find the records for your GD 'signing on' at the police station?
no i didnt find reocrds of his signing on, ::)
i said before he lookd into being naturalised but couldnt afford it.
I tried the border agency thinking as he was an immigrant they may have records but they don't they said its not an immigration issue :-\
I know his brother Micahelo is about 6 years older than my grandfather was was last heard of in Leipzig
I also have his parents names. his mother died circa 1955 in a hiospital - but where i do not know - it was thought she had died during the war.
i don't know now where else to look
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Hello johnbhoy,
Please excuse that I join the thread, but I think I have some good news for you and your wife. You're looking for the birthplace of G.F. Wall and you wonder if his name is anglicised or not. I think it's not. You have already found a guy with the same name having emigrated from Owen in the community of Kirchheim /Teck in Wurttemberg. Today there are still three different families living there and bearing the same name (German phone book: www.dasoertliche.de, fill in Wall in first place and Owen in second.)
So why not begin the search on the German side. You might send a letter to the community archive of Owen and ask the people there if they would kindly look up their registers in order to find your wife's forefather in their books (what would probably cost you some pounds, but these would be worth paying, when getting some evidence there.) The address is: Stadtverwaltung Owen, Einwohnermeldeamt-Archiv, Rathausstraße 8, D-73277 Owen. A second possibility would be to write to the protestant minister who could have a look in the church archive there: Pfarramt Owen, Kirchstrasse 3, D-73277 Owen.
Best regards
Histres
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Hello bongo ali,
most probably your forefather Henry Cutts was born in Germany as Heinrich Katz. This is a very common name in Wurttemberg, where most of the German pork butchers came from. The German name Katz was anglicised into the English version Cutts, keeping exactly the same pronunciation.
There are still several Katz families living in the area of Welzheim, for which I'll give you the following phone book link: http://www1.dasoertliche.de. Fill in Katz on the left and Welzheim in the right field. Click on Umkreissuche 25 km and you'll get 18 different Katz families.
Do you think, you've got a chance to find out your forefather's birthplace? that would make a search for him easier. And, by the way, all the Katz families in that area are Protestant, not Jewish.
Best regards
Histres
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Dear Histres,
Thank you so much for that information - I appreciate any help I can get and your knowledge has certainly pointed me in a direction I otherwise would have found difficult if not impossible to find.
Do you know if there's a contact for me to write to (as per your advice to John re the community archive).
I'm guessing you're in Germany because of your advice?
Protestant, Jewish, Jedi or Vulcan ...I don't mind as long as I can find him!
Again, many thanks,
Ali
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Hello johnbhoy,
Please excuse that I join the thread, but I think I have some good news for you and your wife. You're looking for the birthplace of G.F. Wall and you wonder if his name is anglicised or not. I think it's not. You have already found a guy with the same name having emigrated from Owen in the community of Kirchheim /Teck in Wurttemberg. Today there are still three different families living there and bearing the same name (German phone book: www.dasoertliche.de, fill in Wall in first place and Owen in second.)
So why not begin the search on the German side. You might send a letter to the community archive of Owen and ask the people there if they would kindly look up their registers in order to find your wife's forefather in their books (what would probably cost you some pounds, but these would be worth paying, when getting some evidence there.) The address is: Stadtverwaltung Owen, Einwohnermeldeamt-Archiv, Rathausstraße 8, D-73277 Owen. A second possibility would be to write to the protestant minister who could have a look in the church archive there: Pfarramt Owen, Kirchstrasse 3, D-73277 Owen.
Best regards
Histres
Hi Histres,
Many thanks for your post, very thoughtful of you. Please feel free to post any time.
A good idea of maybe looking for Christian Frederick in Germany. I'm not 100% sure if Christian was from Owen, so I'm just going to probe a little deeper first from this side of the water and if I can't get any further, then I will restart my search in Germany, very likely making a visit to Germany.
Thanks for the contact directory, it is very user friendly and thanks again for your post. If I make any progress I will keep you updated
Best Regards Histres
John :)
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Hello bongo ali,
to give you some advice for continuing your research in Germany would require to know the birthplace of your forefather Heinrich Katz (Henry Cutts). As there were (and still are) so many Katz families all over Wurttemberg it would be of no use writing letters haphazardly. Perhaps you can find his place of birth mentioned in one of the censuses. Better would be the Certificate of Naturalization but as that is not possible in your case, you can try to get the necessary information from the church archive in the parish where he married. Many German pork butchers were members in a German Protestant Church Parish.
By the way, your guess was correct. I'm in Germany and I'm German, too, as my incomplete English may indicate.
Best regards
Histres
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Dear Histres,
Thanks again for your help - I will try to find out if there is any additional information at the Church where Henry married (as there is no information of his actual place of birth on the marriage certificate I have).
Your English is fabulous - my German is non-existant beyond what I can remember from school, which is very little!
Thanks,
Ali
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Can't get my head round anything in the NA, have requested a search for Naturalization papers, passenger lists and civilian internment, will cost a pretty penny, but will hopefully get a result :)
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Hi John,
I'm reassured that you struggled with The NA website - I couldn't get it to work for me either. It's so frustrating.
I'll be extremely interested to know the results you receive from their search (and scarily what they've charged you!).
I've just recently sent off a search request to The Red Cross in Geneva (for any internment records they may have for my GGF). That's not cheap either, but the way I look at it, if they have any information from his internment, what I have to pay to get it will be nothing compared to the price he and his family paid over the years he was locked away.
Ali
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if we are talking war period you could try ITS Bad Arolsen
http://www.its-arolsen.org/en/homepage/index.html
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and the Red Cross archives might be useful too:
http://www.icrc.org/eng/contact-archives
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That's not cheap either, but the way I look at it, if they have any information from his internment, what I have to pay to get it will be nothing compared to the price he and his family paid over the years he was locked away.
Ali
Lovely sentiments Ali, I couldn't have put it better myself
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and the Red Cross archives might be useful too:
http://www.icrc.org/eng/contact-archives
Thanks for posting Toni
John :)
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My great grandfather Christian (?Frederick) Brand was a German Pork Butcher in Plaistow, London, in 1901, but that is all I know about him.
His son, my grandfather, was also Christian Frederick
I would welcome any more information.
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Hello johnbhoy,
just had a look at the "Kirchenbuch" from Owen. Wall to Wall Walls (please forgive me), but only one Christian Fredrick. Unfortunately he died soon after birth.
Regards Peonie
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Hello johnbhoy,
just had a look at the "Kirchenbuch" from Owen. Wall to Wall Walls (please forgive me), but only one Christian Fredrick. Unfortunately he died soon after birth.
Regards Peonie
PM Peonie, thanks
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My great grandfather Christian (?Frederick) Brand was a German Pork Butcher in Plaistow, London, in 1901, but that is all I know about him.
His son, my grandfather, was also Christian Frederick
I would welcome any more information.
Hi pavane, during my research, I have noticed that Christian Frederick was a very popular forename at the time. I'll have a look at the Sue Gibbons book to see if there is a Brand mentioned, as there were a lot of German pork butchers in London, I'll pm you if I find anything.
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Hello all
Following the thread with interest as it is similar to my search for my German ancestors.
My GGF Gustav Paul Heise lived in Birkenhead and was interned in Lancaster in WW1.
Michael
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Hello all
Following the thread with interest as it is similar to my search for my German ancestors.
My GGF Gustav Paul Heise lived in Birkenhead and was interned in Lancaster in WW1.
Michael
Hi SBFF, did you know that he was interned from family telling you or did you get it from the NA?
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Hello
No I didn't know about him until I applied to NA for his wifes application for naturalization.
See my post
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,347825.msg2264199.html#msg2264199
michael
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Hello all you descendants of German pork butchers in Britain.
In May next year I’m giving a talk in Salzburg/Austria on the topic: Migration and food. For this I’m in need of some photos that show the shop fronts of German butchers with their windows and all the specialities and delicacies displayed in them. Is there anyone who owns such a photo and could send me a copy?
With kind regards
histres
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Moderator comment: copyright image removed
Hi K-H,
Christian Frederick left Carlisle and moved down to Lancaster in the county of Lancashire. He worked for the Co-operative (a chain of shops for food, furniture, insurance etc) before returning to Carlisle. I will email the co-op (their nick name) and see if they have any photographs from 1911 of their food layout on the counter.
Hi to everyone else that I have been corresponding with. Before I send the above information to the NA, can you take a look at it and give me some advice.
Under the heading - birthplace, Christian Frederick's birthplace is recorded as Wùrttenburg. In the next column it has a date for Nationality of 1885.
If Christian Frederick was 39 years old on the 1911 census, that means he was born in 1872. Which means he was 13 when he was naturalized?!?!? Can anyone make any sense of that?
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Hello
No I didn't know about him until I applied to NA for his wifes application for naturalization.
See my post
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,347825.msg2264199.html#msg2264199
michael
Michael, thats a great thread that mate, I read it a couple of weeks ago and then came back to it today for another read, a lot of twists and turns :)
John
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There is still a family of butchers in Burnley who orginally came from Germany before WW1. At the out break of the war someone threw a brick through their shop window. They were well loved in the town and the next week the Burnley Express newspaper published a photograph of the family showing all the male members standing out side their shop in their British military uniforms.
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Good morning James1950,
Thank you for your hints. I have already been in contact with the Burnley butcher family for several months. I will try to get a copy of that photo showing their sons in British uniforms in front of the shop from the Burnley Express.
Kind regards
histres
Hello johnbhoy,
I thank you also for your information and your offer to help with getting a photo.
Best wishes
histres
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I'll pm you when I get a reply K-H.
James, the shop in Burnley is a prime example of the anti-German sentiments of that period.. They have donated one of the WW1 uniforms to the local museum and have detailed accounts of they're family history, very nice people.
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http://www.burnleyinthegreatwar.info/haffenergeorgebattledress.htm
This a link to a reference to the family on a wonderful web site that is dedicated to Burnley soldiers of the Great War.
I come from a family of butchers in Burnley. My uncle was married to a member of the family who were victims of the shop window incident. His wife is still alive and related the incident to me only a few weeks ago.
James
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Hello all you descendants of German pork butchers in Britain.
In May next year I’m giving a talk in Salzburg/Austria on the topic: Migration and food. For this I’m in need of some photos that show the shop fronts of German butchers with their windows and all the specialities and delicacies displayed in them. Is there anyone who owns such a photo and could send me a copy?
With kind regards
histres
Hello K-H, yes I have some photos and a bit of history you just might be able to use in your talk. I will have to get help from my hubby to load the photos onto my computer, soon. I am very proud of my grandfather, George Grün who had a shop in Congleton, Cheshire. I will send the photos in a pm soon.
Best wishes,
Bethgem
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the shop in Burnley is a prime example of the anti-German sentiments of that period..
Just as a general reminder that you may need to widen your search -
many germans changed their names due to anti-german sentiments before WW1:
In a similar vein:
I posted some tips on anglicization of emigrant names at
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,11860.0.html
"Sharing Useful Tips: Germany & E.Europe"
includes my favourite name-change of all time:
".. Abraham ben Isaiah, otherwise known as Moses Abraham Groomsfelt, or Jones, a silversmith .."
I also read an account recently, in a family history book, of two brothers Frank Charles DEGENHARDT and Walter DEGENHARDT, who, at the turn of the century, decided their names (their father was a german immigrant) were TOO german:
Walter DEGENHARDT became Walter HART, and
Frank Charles DEGENHARDT became Frank CHARLES !!
Bob
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What a fascinating discussion...
Just as a matter of interest there were Jewish butchers in Germany in the 1800's who dealt in pork. my Ggrandfather was one of them and the explanation is quite simple. Until the early 1800's jews in parts of what is now south west germany / Rhineland were confined to villages and not allowed to practice any trade - except for that of being a butcher (to provide kosher meat) . So there were butchers who had two seperate slaughter rooms, tools and practices, a kosher one and a non-kosher one.
When Jews were allowed to choose trades some of them remained butchers and in order to remain competitive they would have to ( especially in germany ) deal in pork. Todays Beth Din ( those who oversee what is kosher) may not approve but that is another story.
From there its not a long jump to see how German skills in pork sausage making would have been popular in an industrialising Britian where people who had moved to towns couldn't spend hours standing over the fire preparing their own home gron pork products. German pork products whould have been the TV dinner equivalent of the day.
So there would have been a excellent business opportunity for anybody who was prepared to move to England.
Its harder to conceive how the name Kristian was Jewish but he could have changed that one as well. After all what was acdptable in rural germany may not have been acceptable in England if there were more religious jews from Eastern Europe about. So he may have found it convenient to call himself Kristian.
Just a wild theory of course...
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:)Hello loouie,
Yes this story has caused some interest, thank goodness!
Nice to hear another 'take' on the reason why they migrated. It could have been your example and also the political situation there at the time. I don't have the details to hand on that, but I read something about it somewhere.
My family tree on my Mother's side is of German farmers, going on for over 400 years! The keeping of pigs and the subsequent products from them seems to have been the only source of income for them, and your explanation of events must have had an influence on them keeping to that trade.
I never met or knew my Grandparents, or any of my many Aunties from that family. I have discovered all of them and their profession as Pork Butchers since tracing my family tree. I wish I had known all of them!
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Hi Loouie, we're glad your enjoying the thread, that is an interesting post you wrote, thanks for sharing it
Johnbhoy :)
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Hello there
I am researching the same family - Christian Frederick Wall for a descendant of his son Roland Wall born 1915 in Carlise.
I have literally only just started looking and have found them in the census the same as you did John when you started.
Great to make contact. I tried to send you a message but it won't let me.
Amanda
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Welcome to Rootschat Amanda! ;D
I'm afraid that you have to make x3 posts before you can send a PM...
Enjoy!
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Hello there
I am researching the same family - Christian Frederick Wall for a descendant of his son Roland Wall born 1915 in Carlise.
I have literally only just started looking and have found them in the census the same as you did John when you started.
Great to make contact. I tried to send you a message but it won't let me.
Amanda
Hello Amanda,
Welcome to this very helpful forum! You just have to reply and say something, anything, to make up the three qualifying posts required in order for you to be able to send a private message to anyone. So then, say hello and that will be ok! Hear you soon!
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; Hello and thanks for that tip :)
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Hello to you again Amanda! One more message to go! Go on! You can do it!
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Hello there
I am researching the same family - Christian Frederick Wall for a descendant of his son Roland Wall born 1915 in Carlise.
I have literally only just started looking and have found them in the census the same as you did John when you started.
Great to make contact. I tried to send you a message but it won't let me.
Amanda
Hello there Amanda and welcome to the web site, the folk on here are always willing to help and are very friendly.
As Bethgem said, you'll have to make another post so that you can send me a personal message, and then we'll be able to discuss and send each other the information that we both have.
John
Bethgem...cheers ;)
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Thank you everyone :)
Speak soon John.
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Email sent Amanda with attachments, if it's to big, mail me and I'll break it down or winzip
John
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Hi Everyone,
I should like to join in if I may. I am currently researching the Beyer Family who were Pork Butchers in Bradford, Yorkshire. Johann Karl Beyer was born at Kocherstetten, Kuenzelsau, Wuerttemberg, in 1866, the son of Frederick Beyer and Catherine Koberer. He applied for emigration at Wuerttemberg in August 1881 and shortly arrived in England. In 1888 he married into another Bradford/German Pork Butcher Family from Wuerttemberg by marrying Anna Margaret Pfeiffer, the daughter of Charles Frederick Pfeiffer and Katherine Bruck and set up his own shop. He obtained naturalisation in 1900.
The Beyers are still around in Yorkshire.
I've not been able to track the link back in Kocherstetten as yet.
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Welcome to the board, SouthYorkie. I've not written in all caps - don't need to shout!
You have come to the right place! There seems to have been a hell of a lot of butchers coming here from Germany in those times. I am surprised no-one in the media have picked up on this and made a good documentary! It would be a bit of a rival of the BBC's "Who Do You Think You Are" programme! All that delving into people's lives, and they pay for it too!
I don't know your family, sorry, but maybe someone on here can help to point you in the right direction. You already have a good start, I see, with the information you've given. I had help on here. I hope you will have the same with yours.
;)
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Welcome SouthYorkie,
That's a coincidence! My great grandmother, Margarethe Brueck was born 1843 in Kocherstetten and married Hermann Pfisterer (I assume Kuenzelsau) in 1864 at Rotherham Parish Church. They had 2 sons. One, my grandfather, followed his cousin, John Heinzmann, to Northwich, Cheshire. He had a butcher's shop in Witton Steet. My grandfather had a garage and one or two shops there.
Hermann Pfisterer's sister Louisa, married Christian Lindenberger in Bradford, also a butcher. One of their cousins, Louis Pfisterer was a butcher in Widnes.
They were all from and around Kuenzelsau but I have yet to follow them all up.
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I only had confirmation that my ggrandmother was Brück (Brueck, Bruck) when I received her first son's birth certificate. Up until then she had been transcribed as "Brink".
Her father's name on her marriage certificate was George (Georg). Her brother was Johann Brück who called himself John Briggs. He was born in 1850, she in 1843 and on the 1871 census of Charles F Pfeiffer and Katharine, there is K's sister, Barbara Bruck. I must write again to Germany to see if I can find this family.
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Hi all,
Just thought I would add my German Pork Butcher to the collection ;) The earliest I have is George Michael Schmidt (bn 1822) from Weutemberg who was a POrk Butcher in Westminster (according to the 1851 and 1871 census). His son, Leonard William Schmidt born in Westminster, carried on the tradition and indeed passed it onto his son - James Schmidt (bn 1889).
I lose the Schmidts around the 1911 census - I suspect that they may have Anglicised their name (despite having been in the UK for 50 odd years ::)).
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Spidermonkey there was a period of unrest before the war when people didnt like anything German i think Rick Stein WDYTYA touches on this they would be ostrasized simply for having a German name if they were shop owners people wouldnt buy things from them they would have bricks thrown through their windows etc.
i suspect this is why they cahnged their name
event he Royal family changed their name from Saxe-Coburg to Windosr to make them sound more English.
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Yeah, I guessed that there would have been a lot of anti-German feelings - just makes me sad to think that for 50 odd years this family had been serving the local community (they stayed in the same area the whole time), had married into the local community and had children - some of whom would go on to serve for Britain in WW1, yet felt the need to change their name.
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My German Grandfather was George Green, using the direct translation of the name Grün. He and his family were very well respected and were supported by their community. I have press clippings about him and it says he was highly thought of in his town, all through his life there.
He was a pork butcher the whole time. His pies were legendary. They brought up 7 girls and 1 boy, The one boy served in the British Army fighting the Germans and he was killed in 1918. His name is on the memorial in the town.
At no time did they suffer any animosity from the community and they were very kind to the poor. I have heard of the incidents of bricks through the windows of other German owned shops and homes, but my Grandfather never had anything of the sort. Must he have been the only one then? I wonder... :)
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Spidermonkey there was a period of unrest before the war when people didnt like anything German i think Rick Stein WDYTYA touches on this they would be ostrasized simply for having a German name if they were shop owners people wouldnt buy things from them they would have bricks thrown through their windows etc.
i suspect this is why they cahnged their name
event he Royal family changed their name from Saxe-Coburg to Windosr to make them sound more English.
Although there was antipathy towards German nationals in Britain, there were no recorded incidents of violence until after the outbreak of war. Most of the antipathy was directed at the German government prior to the war, due to the patent, and declared aspirations of "absolute hegemony" over Europe...The German policy of Weltpolitik and their Naval arms race against Britain had rather more to do with the general pre war suspicions.
It can be argued hat the Kaiser, Tirpitz and Von Moltke "arranged " WW1 at the "War Council" of Dec 1912. This in tandem with the Austro-Hungarian aspirations in the Balkans (crisis in 1908/9 war in 1912/3) had more more to do with it than what 1960s revisionists would have us believe!
The Royal Family didnt change their name until late 1917, after letters patent were published at the end of July that year. It changed from "Saxe-Coburg and Gotha" to Windsor. The members of the extended Royal Family who had fought for Germany were not stripped of their British titles until 1919. As I mentioned on p2 of this thread...This had a lot to do with the fact that the German heavy bomber killing British civilians was the Gotha...There were questions raised about the "alien court" by notables such as HG Wells, but as The King pointed out, "I may be uninspiring, but I'll be damned if I'm alien."
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My greatgreatgrandfather was a German pork butcher in Sheffield from about 1856 - 1900 and was called John George Andrew Gross. I've just started researching the family and found alot of interesting stuff on the censuses. My Grandad had done a family tree in the 1950's and 60's though some of the information there was a bit sketchy. Anyhow, we managed to track his naturalisation papers down at the national archives and found out his place of origin to be Ingelfingen, Wuerttemberg. We know he had a least one sister who married a Smith and left for America, and probably alot more siblings too.
The church archive in Stuttgart has information about families on microfilm, though you need to know which village they came from:
http://www.archiv.elk-wue.de/ (http://www.archiv.elk-wue.de/)
You could also check out the following paper by Karl-Heinz WUESTNER, Kultur und Foerderverein Roeβler-Museum Untermuenkheim, Germany:
http://www.surrey.ac.uk/Arts/CRONEM/CRONEM-papers09/Wuestner.pdf
It seems that most pork butchers in Britain came from the Hohenlohe area of Wuerttemberg.
I checked the Wuerttemberg emmigration database http://www.auswanderer-bw.de, though I couldn't find them. Seems like they only have about 15% of all emmigrants online anyway.
For those having ancestors in Yorkshire, I found the following page useful:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~sherry/yorkshire_jewry_in_1881.htm (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~sherry/yorkshire_jewry_in_1881.htm)
The author seems to have filtered out of the census all the folks from Germany and East Europe living in Yorkshire in 1881.
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Hi Anyone and Everyone.
My Grt Grandparents were German. Grt Grandfather was Anton Joseph Wolpert and he married Christina Elizabeth Wolf in a Catholic Church in Bradford 1870. Both came from farming families (Wuerttemberg). On marriage cert Joseph is Pork Butcher. I haven't been able to find either Joseph or wife earlier than their marriage. By 1871 they were living in Bridgegate Rotherham and still Pork butcher. This ended soon afterwards and they moved to Parkgate Rawmarsh where they remained for life and Joseph became an Iron worker. I know exactly where they lived etc from then on but as to their earlier history I know nothing! I believe Joseph had several brothers and cousins who were all pork butchers. Whether Joseph and his wife Christina came over from Germany together I don't know. My father didn't talk much about his German Grandparents even though he grew up living very close to them. He did say that they came over from Germany at the same time as Schonhuts also Pork Butchers Rawmarsh Rotherham and that they were stoned, as were Schonhuts, during the First World War (this was despite my Grt Uncle, their eldest son, being a British soldier) They also had to report to the local police each week as they were classed as aliens.
Both names Wolf and Wolpert seem at times to be Jewish but as I said earlier they were married in a Bradford Catholic Church - have copy of cert. If anyone can throw any light on the Wolperts or Wolfs I would receive it gratefully. I don't have any photographs or anything! The book sounds interesting. Many thanks. Patricia ::)
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Hello and welcome to the board to rbig10 and Trizzie. I hope you find what you are looking for on here about your Pork Butcher relatives.
The link I have given below is to a thread that I started. I had to search for it and found it a few pages back! Anyway, it's just to let you know about it for any information there that might be of interest to you both.
Cheers and best wishes
Bethgem
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,294729.0.html
:)
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Hi Trizzie
My Great grandfather, Hermann Pfisterer and his wife, Margarethe Brück, were living at 8 Bridgegate, Rotherham, according to their 2nd son's birth certificate (my grandfather, Christian Louis). Before that they were living at 4, High Street, Rotherham (birth Charles Frederick 1865).
Hermann was a Master Butcher and died 1875 in Mexborough. I thought for a long time that they had married in Kuenzelsau, Germany but they married in the Rotherham Parish Church in 1864.
Lighthearted beware!! Guess they were all chatting to each other like we are today.
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Hello Swiss Gill
My Grt Grandparents also lived at 8 Bridgegate Rotherham - (1871 census) !!! Wonder if your family lived there before or after mine? Mine were married in Bradford 1870 and I know they must have moved to Parkgate around 1873 or thereabouts. Second child born Parkgate around this time so they were not there very long. No idea when they arrived from Germany. Believe the children spoke German in the home as they were growing up - according to my dad. The actual building 8 Bridgegate along with others on that side of the street (right hand side up towards the church) was demolished in the 1920s because of road widening. Sure is a small world! Trizzie. :)
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Trizzie,
I never found them on the 1871 Census and my Mum told me they returned to Germany for a while. Up to now all her "statements" have turned out to be facts.
As Hermann Pfisterer died 1875 and Margaret Fisher (as she now called herself) married an Englishman 1876 and bore him 4 children, must accept that this happened.
Will have a look if I can find anything on Wolperts / Wolf
We may not be related but at least we can probably say our forefathers used the same dwelling!!
Gill
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Hi
Bradford must have more records of marriages of German immigrants than anywhere. Mine were married in the Parish Church in May 1889. They could have been told to go there for all I know. The history of Bradford might prove interesting. Maybe something was recorded about the Germans living there and in the surrounding areas. Hope this helps in some way. Bethgem
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Hi all - I checked the Yorkshire Jewry site as mentioned by rbig 10 - I found my Grt grandparents on it and all their children as of 1881. :o I know they were married in Bradford in Stott Hill Catholic Church 1870 - I have copy of their cert. I am now quite puzzled. I don't have a problem with Jewish but I would like to know how this site knew or did they assume that they were Jewish because of the name? I have emailed the owners of the site but so far no response. By 1881 my Grt Grandfather was no longer a butcher. All children were brought up Cathlolic as was my father, he also had a Catholic father. I don't currently have any information re the family before their marriage. I suppose they could have adopted the Catholic faith - maybe the answer lies in the Church at Bradford. Trizzie
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Hi Trizzie, glad you found your Grt Grandparents on that site. My Grandfather's name is there but it is not actually him, as he was not Jewish. I cannot say why yours is there if they were not Jewish, as you have described them, being married in a Catholic Church.
What trade did your Grt Grandfather take up with then, after he was no longer a butcher?
Mr Grandfather remained a butcher all his life. He was in Bradford from 1879 to 1889 when he and his new wife moved to Congleton, Cheshire.
I wish there was a website like that one showing all the German immigrants at that time in those areas, regardless of what religion they were. Anyway, if you sign up on that site would there be more links to research under the family name? I wonder...
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Hello Bethgem - Definitely my family as all children are listed including my Grandmother and the correct address albeit that Wolpert is spelled Wolport and the address given is Bare Tree Road instead of Beartree!
Joseph is Pork Butcher on marriage cert 1870 Bradford and living in Bradford how long unknown - then on the 1871 census at 8 Bridgegate Rotherham and there is one child born Rotherham.
By 1881 the family is living 96 Beartree Road Parkgate and have several more children born Parkgate. Joseph is working in the local iron works. Believe second child was born 1873ish in Parkgate so how long he remained a butcher is open to question. Parkgate is part of Rotherham so distance not problem. I may be able to find out who had the shop after Wolperts. Gill's family either had it before or after - I think it was possibly before. My family may well have come from the same part of Germany as Gill's and known each other well.
Someone has mentioned re Jewish butchers being Pork butchers and reasons why etc but as to change of religion I know not!! My dad and his siblings were very strict Catholics and I assumed this was because of both his parents. I believe Grt Grandparents had Catholic burials - something I need to check out.
Someone has also mentioned that the BBC should make a programme re German Pork Butchers - I agree - make for interesting and enlightening viewing! Trizzie
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Trezzie,
If my ggrandparents went back to Germany, and probably did, then your family probably moved in there from a period of time, say 1868 (birth of second child) to 1871 (census) plus. As I say, I can find absolutely no trace of mine on the 1871 census.
My Ggrandfather died in 1875 in 4, High Street, Mexborough and my Ggrandmother married Robert Wallis of Lincolnshire in 1876 and I found them on the 1881 Census in High Street, Mexborough. She had 4 more children with Robert.
Gill
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Hi Trizzie
Someone has also mentioned that the BBC should make a programme re German Pork Butchers - I agree - make for interesting and enlightening viewing! Trizzie
Yes, I agree!
You've got a lot of information about your relatives there already. Is there any more research to be done, do you think? What's missing?
As for my relatives, in Germany, I know there are still some branches there.
Did you read that other thread that I gave a link to?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,294729.0.html
Bethgem
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Hi Gill
I've always assumed that my Grt Grandparents were in Bradford up to their marriage 1870 then came to Rotherham. Never occurred to me that they or at least Joseph could have been here earlier. Marriage cert gives addresses in Bradford for both of them! Becomes more complicated each day. Have a second cousin am in touch with who may know more but up to 18 months ago he didn't appear to do so. Like myself no idea how, why and from where they got here. Another second cousin thought she had found them on a passenger list (must check it again) but that was emigration not immigration and there wasn't a certainty there either. ???There were quite a few supposedly Wolpert brothers (all Pork butchers) came over here but they went further south - whether or not they were my immediate family I haven't been able to discover. As I said I don't have a problem with Jewish but if someone has put my family on a list as being Jewish I would like to know why. Thankfully Germany did win the last war or my dad and others would probably have been carted off if lists like these were compiled. Still no response from the site owners. :( Trizzie
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Freudian slip in my last post ???? Should of course read 'Didn't win the last war'!!!! ;) Trizzie
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Quote by Trizzie: By 1871 they were living in Bridgegate Rotherham and still Pork butcher.
Unquote
Hi Trizzie
Did you find Joseph Wolpert and his wife on the 1871 Census in Bridgegate Rotherham?
Looked myself on A....y but couldn't find it.
I'll try FindMyPast address search but have only got 17 credits at the moment - I'll see how far it goes.
Goöö
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Hi Gill - Yes - Found them 8 Bridgegate on 1871 census a few years ago now. Just been looking for the emigration record a second cousin sent me - unable to find it - think it was wrong anyway but she also sent me a copy of the birth cert of the Wolpert's first child George Thomas my grt Uncle. Hadn't noticed before (and had it a few years) he was born in Bridgegate July 1871 but at number 17!!!! Not number 8! Maybe that was where friends were who helped with birth etc because it's the actual place of birth recorded not the address where will live.
Last week I met someone who has researched Bridgegate - amongst other places in Rotherham including High Street - he's a retired history teacher. His work is published. He told me where no 8 had been and of course it set me on the Wolpert trail again! He knew that the Wolperts Pork Butchers had been at No 8.. I can follow them from marriage 1870 (but nothing before) right up to their deaths. My dad lived close by same street etc until they died but spoke very little about them. - He did once say to me that not all German people are bad! :) I went to the Rotherham archives for more info last week but they didn't appear to have any copies of the booklet containing Bridgegate. Booklets are about £6. Actually they were not very helpful at all in there! :-\ Anyway I will email him this evening (two dogs needing walkies and shopping to be done) and ask if he can tell me who it was living in no 17 in July 1871 also if I can get copies of booklets. without going back to the library! Trizzie
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Hi Beth - Thank you. Yes have read link - not sure that my family were naturalized but will try to find out. Have feeling they were not. Trizzie
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Good, I only wondered if you'd seen that thread. I have had loads of help on there in locating my relatives in Germany. Well, I'll leave you to your searches now. Best of luck, and all good wishes.
:)
Bethgem
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As I said I don't have a problem with Jewish but if someone has put my family on a list as being Jewish I would like to know why.
Hello Trizzy,
You may rest assured. Of course your Wolpert forefathers were Catholic and not Jewish!!
I went through all the lists on Yorkshire Jewry that were published in the Internet by Conrad Plowman and realized that by far most of the families mentioned were not Jewish. However they were of German origin and for some reason or the other Mr Plowman must have thought that all Germans having left their home country must have been persecuted for religious reasons, ergo they must have been Jewish. He obviously wasn't aware of other reasons for seeking a better life abroad. Especially those German pork butchers came to England because they had found the opportunity of making good money with their products in supplying the people in the fast-growing industrial towns of England's North.
If you send me an e-mail address, I will give you more information on the emigration reasons of the German pork butchers.
Best wishes
Histres
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Hi All, how is everyone doing. :)
It's good to see so many people helping each other out. It seems ages ago since I started this thread, I hope some folk are doing good in their search for they're German ancestors. I've had to go to the NA researchers to pay for a search on CF Wall, but looking forward to some positive outcome.
Hi to Bethgem, SwissGill, Scrimnet, Berlin Bob and all the rest who have contributed to this thread.
Hey Histress, how you doing, my team were rubbish this season, hope you guys done better!!
All the Best, I'll update this thread if I get some news
Johnbhoy 8)
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:)Hi again johnbhoy. I have had some luck! Hope you do soon from NA.
A relative "found" me on here and another relative has recently "found" me from another website, so all in all, a success! I have told my relative who contacted me from that other website that I post on this thread. I hope he will find his way to it and sign up.
Histres has given his talk in Austria about German Pork Butchers and the emigration of food traditions in the wake of their migrations to other countries in the 19th century. I hope he will add something about it on here soon.
Cheers for now,
Bethgem ;)
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That's smashing Bethgem, you deserve it, you worked hard to trace your German roots and assist folk on this thread, good on you :D
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Hi Johnbhoy, hi Bethgem
I am doing well. However, as my job occupies me such a lot, there is little time for writing. And, as you already know, I was preparing a paper for a talk in Salzburg, Austria. The talk was on German butchers in Great Britain. At Salzburg there was an international conference on the topic “Migration and food”. It was organized by the “Association for the Research of Historical Migration”. I was very happy that my paper was accepted and so I invested a lot of time to provide some substantial insight. This was important for me, as the audience mainly consisted of university doctors and professors. They were very impressed to hear that by far most of the "German" pork butchers came from a very restricted Württemberg area called Hohenlohe. No one knew that before or better: it wasn't published before.
Meanwhile I got some more information from Bethgem about relatives of hers.
Johnbhoy it's a pity that your team only reached 2nd place. Won't they be allowed to play internationally next season? My team reached 6th place which will allow them to play internationally in the UEFA cup next season.
Best wishes
histres
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Hi Histres,
Glad you came back on here to post about the talk you gave in Salzburg. I was happy to have helped with the information on my family.
I am surprised that the topic has not been published before, about the fact that most of the German pork butchers came from Hohenloe. It's the sort of information that should be entered on Wikipedia! You could be famous if you write it up and put it on there.
About my two newly found relatives I told everyone about, well, they haven't been in touch since the first couple of emails. I'm wondering what happened. I suppose that's how it goes, maybe. You find someone in your family from a distance and then after the recognition it's all over. I had some photos sent to me and some new information but that's it, it seems. Anyway, I'm glad I know of them. That's a good thing to know.
All the best,
Bethgem
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Hi everyone,
I've just popped back to tell you that I am in contact again with one of my new relatives. The reason was because emails sent did not arrive with me; they were 'lost', somehow. Simple things like that can send things awry. I have sent him all my research now, and so he will have plenty to read!
Hi Johnbhoy, yes your post has been read a lot! Did you get any joy from NA on a search on C F Wall? I hope so. It takes you a step further when you get good responses. :)
All the best,
Bethgem
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Hi Bethgem, the NA had no records of Christian becoming naturalized, so I guess I've got as far as I can with him, it's been fun though :)
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Hi johnbhoy, too bad you cannot go any further with your research into C F Wall. Will you allow me a joke? "Looks like you've hit a brick Wall on that one." Sorry, I should not take advantage. Hope you will forgive me. :-[ ;)
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...LOL...the old ones are the best Bethgem ;) :D :D :D :D
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Hi Bethgem,
One of your "lost relatives" here. I enjoyed the package.
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Have just discovered this thread and it is a fantastic read!
The book "German Pork Butchers in Britain" is today not available on Amazon.
However it is still possible to obtain "Germans in Sheffield 1817 - 1918" by Gerald Newton. It was published in German Life and Letters No. 46 of January 1993. (Gerald Newton is Professor of Germanic Linguistics at the University of Sheffield).
So - just google it to find it. It is un-putdownable!
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Very interesting thread. My great grandfather Johann George Michael Rothermel and his two brothers came to England circa 1876 - they settled in Wellingborough Northants and ran Pork Butchers shops. One brother moved to Nottingham and later to Lancashire. We have traced the family back to 1427 in Wurttemberg with the help of the Archivist in Stuttgart. All info which we have gleaned so far is on our website, I didn't realise there were so many others out there with the same family background ! I have visited the village where they were born.
http://www.birdchildsandgoldsmith.com/acatalog/The_Rothermels_from_Germany.html
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Hello rothermelbird,
Welcome to the thread. You have got an extraordinary good website. It reads like kind of history book. I'm proud of having been able to give some information to Mr Frank who added it to your collection of basic archive material from Germany.
Just to realize where most of the "German" pork butchers originated from, go to the following website:
http://www.surrey.ac.uk/Arts/CRONEM/CRONEM-papers09/Wuestner.pdf.
If you wanted I could send you a map showing the area where the Hohenlohe butchers came from.
By the way: Bethgem, who posts in this thread, has forefathers who lived only 2 km away from the place where the Rothermels descended from.
Best wishes
histres
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Hi there!
Thanks for your reply, I have looked up Hohenlohe on my Gertman maps and have seen it is in the same area as where the Rothermels came from. Folker Frank has given me a great deal of information not all of it of course is on my website! I would be interested to hear from Bethgem, evidently there are still Rothermels in the Ilshofen area in the German telephone directory - we are uncertain if they are related as we haven't contacted them yet.
I would be interested in your map.
Best wishes
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Hi Rothermelbird,
Welcome to this thread. Yes, I have had a lot of help from Histres in finding my ggf's family. Some of it is mentioned in this thread and on the thread I started, "Germany: George Green, pork butcher" link:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,294729.0.html
I have not visited Germany myself, but it is a good possibility that I will one day soon, say within the next year or so, as I find I am thinking about the place a lot. I know I wouldn't be able to do any searches though, as Histres has done them for me, and I am most grateful.
Should you need to ask me anything then please send me a PM and we'll take it from there. It is most likely that our families knew each other back then, seeing as Histres says they lived so close. Btw, you have a good website!
Bethgem
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Very interesting thread. My great grandfather Johann George Michael Rothermel and his two brothers came to England circa 1876 - they settled in Wellingborough Northants and ran Pork Butchers shops. One brother moved to Nottingham and later to Lancashire. We have traced the family back to 1427 in Wurttemberg with the help of the Archivist in Stuttgart. All info which we have gleaned so far is on our website, I didn't realise there were so many others out there with the same family background ! I have visited the village where they were born.
http://www.birdchildsandgoldsmith.com/acatalog/The_Rothermels_from_Germany.html
That is a very impressive website, I would doubt WDYTYA could better that Rothermelbird, thanks for sharing :)
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Thanks!
I have been in contact with a German academic who has done some research on the subject and has given lectures on the topic both in UK and Germany. I will look up the paperwork - there is so much of it and it goes from strength to strength _ I haven't put all on yet on the website which was supposed to be all about my maternal side eg the Birds Childs and Goldsmiths as I had no idea of my father's line and that he was of German descent so everything has snowballed. I met up with the great grandaughter of Johann George two weeks ago, she found me through the website ( our great grandfathers were brothers) She lives in Canada and was in the UK for a couple of weeks - it was so exciting! She has more information that we can put on the site.
Nice to share with others
Best wishes to all
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Sorry forgot to ask - what's WDYTYA ???
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Apologies...WDYTYA...the tv program that traces and broadcasts celebrities family trees..Who Do You Think You Are. Usually broadcast on the BBC and satallite channels. There is also a US version.
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Have just discovered this thread and it is a fantastic read!
The book "German Pork Butchers in Britain" is today not available on Amazon.
However it is still possible to obtain "Germans in Sheffield 1817 - 1918" by Gerald Newton. It was published in German Life and Letters No. 46 of January 1993. (Gerald Newton is Professor of Germanic Linguistics at the University of Sheffield).
So - just google it to find it. It is un-putdownable!
Hamlets, you should be able to get the book "German Pork Butchers in Britain" from the Anglo German Family History Society ...http://www.agfhs.org.uk/
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The only "Who do........are" programme that was worth watching was Boris Johnson as a couple of months before it was screened the BBC had been down in Stuttgart filming the Palaces and history of the Wurttenberg Royal family. There was a media "black out" on reporting their research before the programme went out, but our German friends saw the article in the local Stuttgart paper. We got onto it straight away and did lots of research and were in personal contact with Stanley, Boris's father who was delighted at our findings! We created a web page for them just after Boris became Mayor of London !
http://www.birdchildsandgoldsmith.com/acatalog/Rothermel_News_Boris_Johnson.html
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The only "Who do........are" programme that was worth watching was Boris Johnson as a couple of months before it was screened the BBC had been down in Stuttgart filming the Palaces and history of the Wurttenberg Royal family. There was a media "black out" on reporting their research before the programme went out, but our German friends saw the article in the local Stuttgart paper. We got onto it straight away and did lots of research and were in personal contact with Stanley, Boris's father who was delighted at our findings! We created a web page for them just after Boris became Mayor of London !
http://www.birdchildsandgoldsmith.com/acatalog/Rothermel_News_Boris_Johnson.html
I haven't seen the Boris Johnson WDYTYA episode as yet, but will look out for it. I can say though, episodes that have stood out and that I have enjoyed, were the Amanda Redman, Jeremy Paxman, Chris Moyles and Stephen Fry episodes :)
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Good Morning all or should I say Guten Morgen.
As you are aware, I have been trying to research my wifes Great Grandfather, Christian Frederick Wall since September 2006.
Just as I was coming up against a "brick wall" (copyright Bethgem), I receive a reply from a family member of my wifes:
"For years I had laboured under the impression, like you, that my grandfather was Christian Frederick but in fact research carried out revealed that he was called Karl Christian Frederick. His German surname was Wahl.
Research also found that he was from a village called Hohebach in Wurtemburg which is about midway between Heidelberg and Nuremburg. I know that he was interned on the Isle of Man during WW1"
Looks like I'm off and running again....
Johnbhoy ;D
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This latest post is amazing ! Seems like it may be Horlebach the same village as the Rothermels came from! Although I must admit there is a Hohebach as well in the same area!We were told there were transcription errors on the early UK census sheets ours look remarkably like 'Henlibach a/a Hall' untill proved otherwise. Schwäbisch Hall was just called 'Hall' in those days.
Whilst we were in the village and talking to the very elderly Mrs Ziegler not only members of her own family emigrated to Sheffield but she told us most of the young men in the village had left. She was the one who later sent us the historic postcards of the village which appear on our website.
Can anyone advise me as to where I can find passenger lists or immigration lists from Germany to Britain around the years 1875/6 ? Have tried everything on Ancestry.com but drawn a blank so far. My ggfather married the Innkeeper's daughter in Sept 1877 so our three brothers must have arrived before that.
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Great news Johnboy.
Hohebach is near to Dörzbach from where a number of my "Bauer (Bower) relations came from. In search, search, search again I related how I tied them up to my Pfisterers.
Looks like Rothermelbird, you and I and some of the others should meet up there!!!!
Strange, at the weekend, after hitting a brick wall in Yorkshire, I started looking up the Walls, thinking maybe if you search "forwards" you might find something.
This I found today though:
http://genforum.genealogy.com/wall/messages/3508.html
It says "Wall" (and there are thousands of them that married around London). However, if you put in Joseph Fackler Jun 1901, you'll see he married a Wilhelmina "Wahl".
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Your site is beautiful and very interesting Rothermelbird.
Yes, there's a Hörlebach and a Hohebach. Hohebach is now a part of Dörzbach, if I've read it correctly. However, Hörlebach is not far away.
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Thanks for the compliment - 2 or 3 years of very hard work!
Whether it was Horlebach or Hohebach it is all in the same area of Wurttemberg and according to our German friends was always the poorest agricultural area for centuries.
There was no other work than rearing animals and the land. one of my Rothermels married a Bauer from the same village, I took a photo of their house which is still standing.
It's a lovely unspoilt area with some fantastic ancient buildings, we're stopping off in Pforzeim this year on our way to Italy, hoping to stay nearer Stuttgart on the way back and do some more sightseeing !
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Rothermelbird have you looked for passenger lists on the German ancestry site, there is a translate button http://www.ancestry.de/
You may also try the NA, but when I contacted the NA they mentioned that their passenger lists were not the best.
SwissGill, thanks for the reply, I google earthed Hohebach and it did not come up with a place, but Dorzbach was definitely on there :)
When I finally trace Karl Wahl, my wife and I will be making a trip there soonest, and as you mentioned SwissGill, that's a nice suggestion to meet with other rootschat(ters) if anyone wants to meet up around that area.
The name Wilhelmina must have been popular, as Karl Christian Frederick named one of his daughters with the name.
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Thanks johnboy
I do belong to Ancestry.co.uk which has all the incoming Passenger lists the unfortunate thing is it's in two parts 1826 - 1869 and 1878 - 1960 for some unknown reason completely missing out the 10 years when the Rothermal brothers came over - we estimate around 1875/6.
Also I can't find anything on the naturalization records for my ggf who definitely was a British citizen on the 1881 census but his younger brother remained a German throughout his life.
It's funny with names - different spellings as you say to Anglesize things. I had a 'coup' when after much research found WW1 records for a couple of the sons, Fritz calling himself Frederick and Carl calling himself George Ruthermel, I have put my findings on the website.
Half way down the page.
http://www.birdchildsandgoldsmith.com/acatalog/Birds_&_Goldsmiths_in_London_WW1.html
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Great, johnbhoy! I'm pleased for you, having that news. That "brick wall" is now smashed down!
I have seen the German name "Wahl" spelt that way before and was too shy to suggest to you to try looking it up. I now I wish I had mentioned it. Best of luck in your new searches.
Bethgem
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Thanks johnboy
It's funny with names - different spellings as you say to Anglesize things. I had a 'coup' when after much research found WW1 records for a couple of the sons, Fritz calling himself Frederick and Carl calling himself George Ruthermel, I have put my findings on the website.
Half way down the page.
http://www.birdchildsandgoldsmith.com/acatalog/Birds_&_Goldsmiths_in_London_WW1.html
I was looking at that page yesterday, and noticed Fritz Martin. First of all I thought he was in a Scottish regiment, but his medal card and the shoulder epaulets say the Northumberland Fusiliers.
If you have a spare 10 minutes, look up the Haffners of Burnley, they're sons also fought for the British. They still run a butchers shop in Burnley. :)
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Great, johnbhoy! I'm pleased for you, having that news. That "brick wall" is now smashed down!
I have seen the German name "Wahl" spelt that way before and was too shy to suggest to you to try looking it up. I now I wish I had mentioned it. Best of luck in your new searches.
Bethgem
...you don't strike me as being the shy type Bethgem ;D I'm looking back to previous threads, and Toni* actually questioned if the name had been anglicized and I completely forgot about it..doh!! Lets see how far I get this time...it's only taken 4 years!!!
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...by the way, Bongo Ali, Toni* and all other posters...how are you guys all getting on, any progress??
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Great, johnbhoy! I'm pleased for you, having that news. That "brick wall" is now smashed down!
I have seen the German name "Wahl" spelt that way before and was too shy to suggest to you to try looking it up. I now I wish I had mentioned it. Best of luck in your new searches.
Bethgem
...you don't strike me as being the shy type Bethgem ;D I'm looking back to previous threads, and Toni* actually questioned if the name had been anglicized and I completely forgot about it..doh!! Lets see how far I get this time...it's only taken 4 years!!!
I'm not really shy, in the bashful sense! I should have said I was shy of, as in inclined to avoid. Four years is a long time in this business, and I hope you find it soon.
Bethgem
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Below is from an email I received this morning from a family member -
"I know from my father that KCF was interned on the Isle of Man. It put quite a strain on the family at the time as the main breadwinner was gone and there was no welfare state to look after them. A couple of the older boys were old enough to work but Grandmother had to rely on help from the Salvation Army. Both her and her daughter, were committed Salvationists for the rest of their lives".
This morning, I requested for paid research to be carried out by the NA for the record at Knockaloe Internment Camp of Karl Christian Frederick.
The Internment records are on FO 383 and the system is not user friendly, but it does give the following insight into conditions at Knockaloe -
A number of these were unsatisfactory, and the bulk of the internees came to be housed on the Isle of Man, at Knockaloe and a smaller camp at Douglas. The alien civilian camp at Knockaloe, near Peel, was originally intended to house 5,000 internees, but by the end of the war some 24,500 were held there (effectively over half of the island's population), in wooden huts
I'll post my findings when I receive the reply from the NA
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Is anybody a member of the Anglo German Family History Society (AGFHS). I applied for membership by credit card and was redirected to www.genfair.com but there was no membership page ???
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True Johnbhoy, I checked it too. I gave my relative a mention of that website but I see now that it isn't available. Someone else might know what has happened with it... ???
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Thanks for that Bethgem, I'll pm Scrimnet or Berlin-Bob, they seem to be the people in the know :)
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HI all
I've just been forwarded a link to this topic by another Rootschat member.
Has anyone come across the Dreher family of Derby? I have a John Frederick Dreher c1816 Germany who married in Derby in 1835. He was a Pork Butcher. He died as a result of consumption in 1853.
His wife Elizabeth (ms Wathall) died in 1872. A small entry in the Derby Mercury, Wednesday 1st May 1872. Births, Deaths and Marriages Column read...DREHER, APRIL 17, Elizabeth Dreher, widow of the late John Frederick Dreher late pork butcher of this town, aged 54 - also recently supplied by a Rootschat member.
Their son Henry (c1838 Derby) may also have been a pork butcher.
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HI all
I've just been forwarded a link to this topic by another Rootschat member.
Has anyone come across the Dreher family of Derby? I have a John Frederick Dreher c1816 Germany who married in Derby in 1835. He was a Pork Butcher. He died as a result of consumption in 1853.
His wife Elizabeth (ms Wathall) died in 1872. A small entry in the Derby Mercury, Wednesday 1st May 1872. Births, Deaths and Marriages Column read...DREHER, APRIL 17, Elizabeth Dreher, widow of the late John Frederick Dreher late pork butcher of this town, aged 54 - also recently supplied by a Rootschat member.
Their son Henry (c1838 Derby) may also have been a pork butcher.
I haven't came across that name Jim but will keep a look out.
I notice you have Carlisle as a named city....did he work there or is that another family?
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Hi Johnbhoy
Thanks for the quick reply and offer to keep an eye out for Dreher butchers!
My Dreher's only worked as butchers in Derby before their descendants came to the smoke of Manchester c1880. A Dreher is my maternal great grandmother.
I note that you Carlisle connections include the Dixon family. A direct paternal descendant named James Greig married Ann (Annie) Dixon in Carlisle in 1875. Ann Dixon was born 24/8/1848 in Carlisle to Francis Dixon and Mary Downie. They had 8 children in all. I believe Francis was born in Penrith and Mary was Scottish...as were my Greig ancestors.
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No bother Jim, I'm sure there's many people on this thread will keep a lookout if they come across the name Dreher. ;)
The Dixon's on my wifes side are from Bewcastle, near Carlisle, called Mary, she married the guy I'm trying to trace.
Good luck with your search
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I would be interested in your map.
Hello rothermelbird,
Now at last I've got the time to send you the promised map. As it is too large to attach it here, you should send me your e-mail address by pm.
Best wishes
histres
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My greatgreatgrandfather was a German pork butcher in Sheffield from about 1856 - 1900 and was called John George Andrew Gross.
Hello rbig,
A professor at the Sheffield University did some research on German businessmen in the Sheffield area. He analysed the Sheffield street directory in the 19th century and sent me the results of his investigation. There he found the following entry in 1863 and 1864:
Gross, George, pork butcher, 5 Castle Street.
Perhaps this find can contribute to and complement your previous research.
Best wishes
Histres
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Dear Histress
Thanks for the offer of the map our website's email is (*)
or perhaps you could attach it to this thread?
Best wishes
rothermelbird
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
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Hi Everyone,
I've been missing for a while owing to 'real time' family issues - hopefully now back onto the searching again. It's been a while since I was researching my German Great Grand Father, so I need to get myself back up to speed with all of the jigsaw peices again!
Great reading this thread though - others seem to have had some super luck, so fingers crossed.
Bongo Ali
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Dear Histres
Many thanks for the interesting maps which I will load on the website. Hope you received my reply via the alternative email
Best wishes
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Dear Rothermelbird,
Thank you very much much for your personal reply. I got it parallel to your post here in rootschat. If you need more detailed maps of the Hohenlohe area, I will be able to send you the ones you need. You've just got to tell me which villages you want to locate on them.
Best wishes
Histres
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Dear Histres
Many thanks for the interesting maps which I will load on the website. Hope you received my reply via the alternative email
Best wishes
Dear Rothermelbird,
I just want to say that I have viewed a lot of your website and I have found it all very interesting, giving a feel of life back then. You have created a unique record, which is of course ongoing, and it is a credit to you. Thank you for your openness and in sharing it with everyone who visits your website.
The maps are useful too. A fascinating history has emerged from the background of farming.
Kind regards,
Bethgem
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Dear Bethgem Thanks so much for the compliment I have put it on the Testimonials page. I have a large file of documents not all of which have been put on the site due to space. Initially my friends in Germany had much help from Histres who at the time I had no idea was involved with this thread. It was so exciting for me to find my father's roots and visit the village in Horlebach where my great grandfather was born and speak to people in the village who had known the family.
All this time I have also been searching for my father's half brother, last known wherabouts Preston Lancs in 1999 who evidently had the original deeds to the butchers shop in Wellingborough. I have tried all forums and family tracing sites to no avail. He would be 90 by now but there is still some hope that maybe he and members of his family are alive. Any ideas ??
Best wishes.
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Dear Rothermelbird,
Thank you again; this time for a mention on the Testimonials page. Fame at last? (I am only joking)
To find your relative, I'm sure you have tried everywhere by now. It is a pity that there are no other records kept other than the Census. Police records, maybe? I say that because they were involved in the record of the Identity details for my Grandfather, George Green, so it's just another avenue to look, I suppose. Plus the Naturalisation department.
Another place to try would be the death notices, daily I mean, in newspapers in the last known area he lived, to see if there are any names there that are in your family and to check them out. All just a thought - you have most likely tried all those. Good luck in your searches.
Regards,
Bethgem
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Hello Bethgem,
During the last few days I could manage to find several descendants of your grandfather's brother Wilhelm Grün. There are still many Grüns around who have the same forefathers like you have. Allow me some more hours to make up a comprehensible chart with names and additional personal data. As soon as I have finished it, I will send it to you.
Best wishes
Histres
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Histres
You are wonderful, after all the help you have given me !!
I am most grateful....
Rothermelbird
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Rothemelbird, yes! I say the very same as you. I feel the same. Histres, you are very kind to us. Thank you, very very much.
Bethgem
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Hello Bethgem,
During the last few days I could manage to find several descendants of your grandfather's brother Wilhelm Grün. There are still many Grüns around who have the same forefathers like you have. Allow me some more hours to make up a comprehensible chart with names and additional personal data. As soon as I have finished it, I will send it to you.
Best wishes
Histres
Dear Histres,
Thank you, I am so grateful for your help.
I have sent copies to my new found relatives in the past and will do so again with the next research results that you send me.
Good wishes to you, always,
Bethgem
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Re Germans from Wurttemberg in Sheffield
When I visited Horlebach to investigate my Rothermel ancestors I met a lovely elderly lady Else Ziegler in the village, her grandfather left about the same time as the Rothermels in the 1870's and settled in Sheffield to set up businesses, not sure whether they were Butchers shops or not. She was still in contact with them a couple of years ago and had recent photographs. It would be interesting to contact them!
Rothermelbird
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Hi All,
A quick update. Recieved mail today 31/08/10 form Histress, who has kindly went out of his way, and done some research in his own time and it looks like good news for me. I've got to put some of the jigsaw together, may take a wee while, but all thanks to Histress :D
Johnbhoy
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Johnbhoy,
That's excellent news for you!
Yes, Histres has been most helpful to us, and as you say, in his own time too. I hope you find the missing pieces now. It's a lovely feeling finding out who is who in a family tree. Let us know how you get on.
Bethgem
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Thanks Bethgem, the amount of detail that Histres has sent me is outstanding, he's definitely been a good friend to us all. Looks like the 'brick wall' has finally come to an end, I'll update when I've completed
Johnbhoy :)
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Hohebach is near to Dörzbach from where a number of my "Bauer (Bower) relations came from. In search, search, search again I related how I tied them up to my Pfisterers.
Hello SwissGill,
At the moment I am about to list all the pork butchers and ladies that emigrated from Kocherstetten to the UK. There existed a close-woven netwerk between most of them. Can you please pm me, how the Bowers of Dörzbach (I suppose it is the family in Queen Street, Horbury) are tied to the Pfisterers?
If you wished, I could send you my "Kocherstetten list", but it's written in German. Can you read German or is there someone in your family who could translate it for you?
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Great news Johnboy.
Hohebach is near to Dörzbach from where a number of my "Bauer (Bower) relations came from. In search, search, search again I related how I tied them up to my Pfisterers.
Looks like Rothermelbird, you and I and some of the others should meet up there!!!!
Strange, at the weekend, after hitting a brick wall in Yorkshire, I started looking up the Walls, thinking maybe if you search "forwards" you might find something.
This I found today though:
http://genforum.genealogy.com/wall/messages/3508.html
It says "Wall" (and there are thousands of them that married around London). However, if you put in Joseph Fackler Jun 1901, you'll see he married a Wilhelmina "Wahl".
Hey SwissGill,
Histress has just reminded me of your thread and after some research, Wihelmina is the younger sister of my wifes Great Grandfather, Christian Frederick Wall. I have posted a reply to the lady that placed the message
Thanks for posting
Johnbhoy
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Hohebach is near to Dörzbach from where a number of my "Bauer (Bower) relations came from. In search, search, search again I related how I tied them up to my Pfisterers.
Hello SwissGill,
At the moment I am about to list all the pork butchers and ladies that emigrated from Kocherstetten to the UK. There existed a close-woven netwerk between most of them. Can you please pm me, how the Bowers of Dörzbach (I suppose it is the family in Queen Street, Horbury) are tied to the Pfisterers?
If you wished, I could send you my "Kocherstetten list", but it's written in German. Can you read German or is there someone in your family who could translate it for you?
Hello Histres,
Many thanks for your offer! I have no trouble reading German and would be very interested indeed in your "Kocherstetten list"
I will PM you with my findings on the Bauer-Pfisterer connections.
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Hey SwissGill,
Histress has just reminded me of your thread and after some research, Wihelmina is the younger sister of my wifes Great Grandfather, Christian Frederick Wall. I have posted a reply to the lady that placed the message
Thanks for posting
Johnbhoy
That's some more good news Johnboy!
Gill
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Good morning SwissGill,
I received your collection of material referring to the Pfisterer - Brück connection. Today I got some additional data on the Pfisterer family from Künzelsau's archivist.
Am I right in having read in one of your posts that John Heinzmann's father was married to a sister of Hermann Pfisterer and Louisa Pfisterer?
As soon as I have got your answer, I will complete my "Kocherstetten-List with the newly found coherences.
Best wishes
Histres
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Hello Histres,
No, John Heinzmann was married to Fredericka (Friederike) Pfisterer, born 1858, the sister of Louis Pfisterer who was married to Christina Bower and who died in Künzelsau 9.10.1936.
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Hello SwissGill,
I am talking of John Heinzmann's father. Was he married to a Pfisterer family member of the generation before? Or do you know anything at all of his father?
Histres
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Hello Histres
On John Heinzmann's marriage certificate his father is noted as "George Heinzmann, Farmer" but I have not found any conclusive information as to his identity.
Most of my searches seem to end in GB. The fact that most of them were christened Friedrich, Georg, Johann, Louisa, etc. doesn't help!
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Dear SwissGill,
Thank you for your information, which anyway is quite helpful.
I am just about to unbundle the close knit web of various butcher families in and around the Pfisterer - Brück connections.
I think with the help of Künzelsau's archivist we'll manage to get a starting point to find the villages of origin of those different families and then have a possibility to link your English data to those of their forefathers in the Hohenlohe area.
It will become an exciting but time-consuming endeavour.
I have now incorporated all the information you sent me into my "Kocherstetten List" of pork butchers in Britain and I am still waiting for some more information from the archivist to include. As soon as I have everything put together, I will send you the list.
Have a nice weekend
Histres
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Hello All,
I am new to this site but would like to throw another name into the German pork butchers soup. I am researching Robert Volland's family from Wurttemburg. He came to England in the 1880's and had a shop at 369 High Street in Stratford until his death in 1911. He married Eva Marie Gansler or Gausler and they had 8 children. Many of the boys left the U.K. (probably because of anti-German sentiment) but 2 stayed. I am interested in trying to find exactly where the Vollands came from and trying to contact living members. Any nudges in the right direction would be really helpful.
Thanks
Bermuda Girl
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Hi Hires,
more Künzelsau pork butchers:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,968.msg2317564.html#msg2317564
I think this is the same family mentioned here:
Topic: Germany: KNELLER
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,357124.30.html
Bob
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Dear Histres
Saying "Thank you" alone doesn't seem to express what I am feeling. I am so very grateful for all the work you have done and are intending to do.
Margarethe Brück had a brother Johann, born Kocherstetten 1850 who came to England before 1871 (census) with his wife Rosine born 1842 Morsbach (maiden name unknown). She was on the 1881 Census as "sister" but Margarethe had already re-married and borne 4 more children to an English man, Robert Wallis. Residence was Mexborough. I assume she was Margarethe's sister-in-law.
Johann or, as he called himself, John Briggs, left with his wife in 1883 for America.
Maybe my newly found cousin has some information on the Heinzmanns. Will ask.
I wish you a very nice weekend, too.
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Hi BerlinBob,
Thank you for your hints and links. Yes, the Kneller family that is mentioned in both the links you posted is one and the same family. We have already been in contact on the Kneller familyfrom Künzelsau. You'll find our conversation in the second link. So far I have found 28 Künzelsau pork butchers having emigrated to Britain and I'm sure there must have been even more originating alone from this small town.
However, the Knockaloe discussion in your first link broadens my knowledge about the camp. Thanks again.
Histres
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Hello, my family are the Kneller family posted in Bobs links...would anyone recommend the Sue Gibbons book? I've took a break from the family tree for a while and now i'm getting ready to start all over again :) excited about it :)
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Hello, my family are the Kneller family posted in Bobs links...would anyone recommend the Sue Gibbons book? I've took a break from the family tree for a while and now i'm getting ready to start all over again :) excited about it :)
Sue Gibbons book is a good source of history and attached is another source from our friend on rootschat. Good Luck
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for Patricia
please contact me about Hamsteads
Jane
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Hello rothermelbird.
I am the grandson of your fathers half brother. He is 90 and still alive and married. My grandparents have just reached their 65th wedding anniversary. I have tried contacting someone from your website through Linkedin over the past year with no luck.I too have visited Horlebach ( three times since 2000) and the last visit was August this year with my parents as they were interested in seeing the village.I am afraid I know nothing of any deeds for the property mentioned.
Hope to hear from you.
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Hello SwissGill,
Today I was in the Central Protestant Church Archive of Württemberg in Stuttgart. I found some entries for Hermann Pfisterer-Margarete Brück, Friedrich Beyer-Katharina Köberer and Johann Heinzmann.
I'll send you scans of the documents by e-mail.
Best wishes
Histres
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I am currently researching the Beyer Family who were Pork Butchers in Bradford, Yorkshire. Johann Karl Beyer was born at Kocherstetten, Kuenzelsau, Wuerttemberg, in 1866, the son of Frederick Beyer and Catherine Koberer.
Hello Southyorkie,
I found the Beyer-Köberer family in Kocherstetten' church archive. If you can pm me your e-mail address, I will send you some scans of the documents.
With kind regards
Histres
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Hello SwissGill,
Today I was in the Central Protestant Church Archive of Württemberg in Stuttgart. I found some entries for Hermann Pfisterer-Margarete Brück, Friedrich Beyer-Katharina Köberer and Johann Heinzmann.
I'll send you scans of the documents by e-mail.
Best wishes
Histres
How kind of you Histres - I can't wait to start transcribing.
Many thanks
Gill
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Hello all,
After I have been able to help several descendents of German pork butchers finding their forefathers, I need some help myself. I am looking for an
Elisabeth Diez who married in Barrow, Lancashire in 1878 Karl Friedrich Röger (Roger) and gave birth to eight children between 1878 and 1891.
I would be very grateful for your hints.Thank you.
Histres
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Hi Histres
Have found a marriage for Charles Roger and Lissette Diez in Barrow-in-Furness 1878
and 3 births
Charles Henry 1878
Elizabeth Sophia 1880
Georgina 1881
Will keep looking!
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Found them!!
They moved to Camberwell in London. Karl Friedrich Ernst Roger 1857-1927 emigrated from Niedernhall Germany in 1873. Married Elizabeth Christina Dietz in Barrow on July 22 1878.
In 1891, Charles has his own Pork Butcher Shop with servants and shop assistants (all German born).
Maybe you would like to PM or mail me and I can give you the whole story?
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Hi Histress & Swissgill,
I am searching for a Friedrich C Roger who I believe was a brother of "your" Karl Friedrich Ernst Roger. He was a Butcher from Niedernhall and married a Sophia Weber from Inglefingen. They had 5 children who I cannot trace. Friedrich died Dec 1941 aged 78 while Sophia died in 1943 aged 73. They both died in Ulverston. When Sophia first arrived in England she lived in Congleton. I cannot find their marriage or birth of any their children.
Would appreciate any help.
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Hello rebew,
all I can do for you is sending you a list of information that I collected in connection with Röger butchers and Röger emigrants. I'll send you the list by e-mail. SwissGill can perhaps find more information in the English censuses.
Best wishes
Histres
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Hello rebew,
There is a marriage on FreeBMD;
Frederick Roger and Sofie Weber
Bradford 1893 Jun Qtr
I also found a Frederick Rogers on the 1901 Census in Staffordshire,
Wife Sophyie, both born Germany (Foreign Subjects)
Daughter Florenz born 1895 Birmingham
Daughter Maude born 1900 Biddulph, Staffs.
Address: 2, High Street, Biddulph, Bradley Green
If I find anything else, I will post again.
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There is a marriage on FreeBMD;
Frederick Roger and Sofie Weber
Bradford 1893 Jun Qtr
Hello SwissGill,
Does 1893 Jun Qtr mean "the 4th of June in 1893"?
Thank you for your help.
Kind regards
Histres
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Hi SwissGill & Histres,
Many thanks for the information. This confirms that Frederick Rogers married Sophia Weber. I was never 100% sure just guesswork on my part because of both individuals deaths. It also confirms that Frederick is a brother of Karl Frederick Ernst. Will search for the 3 remaing children now.
Thanks to you both.
Rebew
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Hello Histres
1893 June quarter is April, May, June
rebew
A copy of the marriage certificate would be conclusive. The Rögers changed their names from Roger to Rogers to Rodgers and Frederick C and Sofie moved around quite a lot. I was about to give up searching when I stumbled across the birth of Maud in Biddulph, Staffs!!
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Hi Histres
Only just noticed your discoveries relating to Freidrick Beyer/Katherine Koberer family. Many thanks for this. I will send you my PM.
Thankyou
Southyorkie
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Hello Southyorkie,
Before I send you the scans of the Kocherstetten archive entries, it is important to know if you can read the documents in their original German language. If not, I should try to translate them into English.
It's the same with the Kocherstetten list of pork butchers. It's also written in German.
What would you suggest?
Kind regards
Histres
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hello, new to this site, its been fascinating as i have discovered that my ancestors were pork butchers, in Hull, in 1881. Wittmann. now I am pretty sure I know where they come from and why Matilda Wittmann's sister, Rose Steinbach, my great grandmother, might have ended up in Otley, living next door to a pork butcher, but married to an Otley lad. I guess its the pork butcher link! she might have come over to stay with her sister? and they knew ppork butchers, friends in otley?
she then married into the Foster family, pork butchers in Hull when her first husband died. David Myers in Otley.
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Good morning vanny,
If you know where the Wittmanns and Steinbachs came from, it should be not too difficult to find their forefathers in the German archives. You've just got to tell me the village names, where they descendet from.
Best wishes
Histres
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hmmm there liess the difficulty, they were pork butchers of course, but i will try now to buy a copy of rose and Matilda's marriage certificates, which should tellme? may take some time . . .
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the pork butchers in Otley, that my great grandmother lived next door to, were the Weegmann's, the shop is still going strong. I wonder if she came over, as suggested in that marvellous essay, to se her sister and got a job helping the Weegman's in Otley and then married the inn keeper next door?!
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Dear 0113vanny, hello again,
in the 1881 census I found two Wittman families being pork butchers and originating from Germany.
1. Frederick Wittman, *1842, married to Christina, *1847, 315 High Street, Attercliffe, Sheffield
2. George Wittman, * 1845, married to Mathilde, * 1852, 7 Waterworks Street, Sculcoates, Hull. In the family there lived also Dorothea Wittmann, *1813, mother of head. And there was a servant registered at the same address: Christina Schum, *1861 in Württemberg. Interestingly enough, in 1891, there was the shop of George Hohenrein, another German pork butcher at that address. He apprenticed a Christian Wilhelm Küstner, *1873 in Rüblingen and there were three other assistant butchers who also came from Württemberg: Henry Kulsch, Marie Schumann and Rosina Kurz who were also living at the same address. By 1904 Küstner had his own pork butcher’s shop at 165 Princess Road, Manchester.
In Otley there was only one German pork butcher at the time: The Weegmans who still exist. Perhaps you can phone them and ask whether they know where their forefather originated from.
In my personally created butcher archive I found a Frederick Steinbach, *1858 in Langenbeutingen, pork butcher in Liverpool and married there in 1885 to Louisa Edwards.
Perhaps this information may be of some help to you.
Best wishes
Histres
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ah! well, I think there is a strong possibility that Matilda and Rose Steinbach were sisters to Frederick. they were on their way to Liverpool, family legend tells. Can i find out if they were all born in that same village as Frederick? Their father was called Frederick and mother Julia.
thank you for this.
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Hi 0113vanny,
There is the possibility to look up all the children's names of Frederick and Julia Steinbach in the Langenbeutingen Church Archive or in the central protestant church archive in Stuttgart, where the books are on microfilm, if ever the family once lived there. I will have a look, when I'm in Stuttgart again. However, I don't know yet, when this will be. If you need some quicker evidence, you should write a letter to Langenbeutingen's minister.
On the marriage certificates of Rose and Matilde their birth places are not necessarily given.
Best regards
Histres
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thanks
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Not been on for a wee while, good to see people getting some positive results.
Histress my good friend, you certainly do a lot of the ground work in assisting people, your a good man ;)
Johnbhoy
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I agree with you, Johnbhoy. And I would add that Histres is remarkable.
Welcome back, lad! Great to hear from you. I hope your searches have been successful. Our own Family Tree has grown too!
Bethgem
P.S. couldn't get the smiley to show properly; so not sure if they are working.
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I agree with you, Johnbhoy. And I would add that Histres is remarkable.
Welcome back, lad! Great to hear from you. I hope your searches have been successful. Our own Family Tree has grown too!
Bethgem
P.S. couldn't get the smiley to show properly; so not sure if they are working.
Hi Bethgem
Great that your Family Tree has grown, hope you had a Merry Christmas.
Histress traced the Family all the way back to the beginning of the 19th century, unbelievable.
I'm currently waiting on a reply from the Red Cross in Geneva to see if they have the internment records for Christian Frederick Wall, who was in Knockaloe Prison camp, these can take up to 2 years to get a reply, so I've got to be patient...something I don't have a lot of LOL >:(
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Hi Johnbhoy
Hope you had a Merry Christmas as well. :)
Histres found a branch in my tree back to the middle of the 17th century, so that's truly amazing.
Having to wait up to 2 years for the reply from the Red Cross in Geneva is unusual, surely? You could visit them yourself, and have a bit of a holiday, and maybe get the answer quicker! (?) ;)
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Hello altogether,
I just want to say thank you to all those of whom I received such a great deal of praise for my help and assistance in finding their German forefathers and relatives.
Nevertheless, I also want to express my appreciation towards all those who helped and supported me by sending lots of information I needed. They deserve my utmost credit, too.
All of you I wish a happy, successful and prosperous New Year.
Histres
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Histress, your far to modest my freind.
When I started this thread, I did not realise that there were so many people in the UK with German ancestry, infact, I was not even aware of German Pork Butchers. Some of the story's have been heartbreaking but also fascinating at the same time, and with over 10000 views and 215 replies I hope there will be plenty more to come.
Here's to a peaceful New Year to all of you and your families wherever you are
Johnbhoy
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Johnbhoy, I concur. Histres is a gem.
I wish everyone a Happy New Year, and I hope we all find what we are looking for!
Bethgem
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This looks like the place to get some advice- can anyone help with this:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,509326.msg3657300.html#msg3657300
Thanks
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All the best for your search Sezuk, have you tried the Anglo German Family History Society?
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I received an email today from the ICRC Archives, informing me that they will start researching the Isle of Man POW Internment records in the near future for Christian Frederick..... looking forward to that, I'll give you a shout Histress when I receive a reply
JB
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I've just read the little paper "New Light on the German Pork Butchers in Britain (1850-1950)" and it is eerily accurate as far as my own maternal grandfather/grandmother are concerned. They were both from Morsbach (the Morsbach on the R.Kocher, needless to say) and their family names were Stier and Heyd respectively. My grandfather was not the eldest inheriting son it seems so he went down the well worn path of school, then leave home at 14 for England. He arrived in 1888 in Sunderland and his younger brother also came a bit later. I remember my mother saying that their shop in Coronation Street (east end of Sunderland) was vandalised a number of times and I also believe he went to the IoM internment camp during WW1. My mother was the younger of their two daughters and she had a much freer life than her older sister who was expected to toe the family line to the exclusion of all else. My grandfather outlived his wife and I well remember the frontroom fireside chats about life by the Kocher. Interestingly I don't ever recall him mentioning Kunzelsau - it was only Morsbach - though he did put the place into German context for me with Heilbronn, Stuttgart, Heidelberg, and the R.Neckar. I never picked up that they had a difficult life in Germany though it is painfully obvious to me that the Hohenlohe is probably regarded even today as a bit of a backwater (to be polite).
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Welcome, zelo1954. It was interesting reading your first post.
I am not knowledgeable enough about the Hohenlohe area being a bit of a backwater. My relatives are there, though I have not been there myself.
You have come to the right place if you wish to find your relatives. I, and others, have had lots of help. So, I wish you well.
I'll look on a search engine to find that paper you mention. I will be keen to read it myself. Thanks for mentioning it.
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Good first post zelo, welcome to the thread ;D
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Back in the 1980s we were visited in NZ by a Mr Ickinger from Kunzelsau. We received much background material & photos from him and I reproduce the following. I've tided up the English and made a couple of comments:
Morsbach at this Time
In the year 1883 Morsbach had 398 inhabitants, most of them occupied with farming, which brought a small profit. Nobody became rich. The famine of 1817 and the typhoid epidemic of 1863 (some contradictory information about this) were still in the memory, but everyone had food. Wine-growing was an important industry.
In the town itself were small businesses - butcher, baker, blacksmith, carpenter, cabinetmaker. Some people worked in the small factories of nearby Kunzelsau. "Also pedlars were living there" [I take this to mean street traders who carried their wares around with them].
There was an active emigration movement at that time. The young people mostly went as butchers to England, to America, and even to the southern Pacific [possibly Australia & NZ??]. But older people were also leaving. The connection of the English emigrants to their homeland is evidenced by, for example, a stained-glass window in a church established by the Kantenwein sisters in 1907.
The most exciting event of the period in Morsbach was the suicide of the mayor in 1880. There was evidence of some misappropriation of money and the mayor himself was suspected. It was 40 years later that the thief anonymously confessed [sounds a bit of a tall story to me].
In 1889 the parish church received 2 new bells, the older ones were not working correctly in harmony.
The mill on the Kocher was generating electricity from 1910 and technical progress could be seen by all. In emergencies, the local fire brigade had men with the ability to double up as electricians.
In WW1 Morsbach had to bury some victims - just like any other town.
In March 1933 Hindenburg became an honorary citizen as the Nazism started to spread into the town.
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Hello I am new to this thread. I have seen it before and not got round to posting, but after reading the last few posts this seems like the time to start. My great grandfather and four of his other siblings left Belsenberg and settled in Sheffield, and one in Manchester. They were the Funks.
However, his wife was from Morsbach, and she was a Kantenwein. She came over with two brothers and three sister, another brother went to America. Neither of her three sisters married, although two had five illegitimate children between them. After reading the previous post I was wondering if my great grandmother and her sisters were the Kantenwein sisters that established a church or if it was someone else from their family.
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Welcome to the thread, Richard.
It wasn't the church in Morsbach that was established by the Kantenwein siblings, it was just the stained glass window that they donated.
According to Künzelsau's archivist an inscription says:
" Donated in the year 1907
by the four siblings
Kantenwein in England
in commemoration of their
father L. Kantenwein.
The four siblings were:
Katharine Friederike Rosine *1862, married to Frederick Metz from Hohebach, pork butcher in Peterborough
Andreas Leonhard Michael *1865, pork butcher in Boston
Johann Friedrich *1868, pork butcher in Boston
Johann Georg Andreas *1870, pork butcher in Boston.
These four were cousins to your great grandmother. Your gg grandfather was Georg Christof Kantenwein (1832-1898), wine grower in Morsbach and his brother Johann Leonhard (1830-1870), wine grower in Morsbach was the mentioned siblings' father.
Best wishes
Histres
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Fantastic, Histres, fantastic.
Rebew
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Outstanding reply once again Histres ;D
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Absolutely brilliant, Histres.
:)
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Thank you very much Histres. That has answered a few questions for me. It also drew my attention to a branch that we were aware of, but I hadn't really done much research into. It also made me realise that I think have a photo of one of that branch in my great grandmother's photo album and hadn't realised.
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I also received the following about the Stier & Heyd families at the same time as the Morsbach history - SEE Attachments
Johann Michael Karl Stier is my grandfather
Katharina Rosine Kraemer is probably my grandmother. I know her name was Katharina and my mother's middle name was Rosine.
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I think my great grandparents knew John Hertrich, who was a pork butcher in South Shields. I am pretty sure that he was related to the Michael Hertrich that is mentioned in the last texted.
One other thing that I wanted to ask everyone on here was whether they had heard of the Bartelmeh family of Gateshead. I have a postcard from them (c.1900) and I am pretty sure that I have got several photos of them in my great grandmother's album. I was wondering if they were related to my great grandmother so I tried looking for the marriage of Johann Kaspar Leonhard (Leonard) Bartelmeh (c.1860) to Elizabeth Wilhelmina (Minnie) Unknown (c.1867). Their eldest child was born in late 1888 in Sunderland, so my guess would be that they were married shortly before that.
I think if there is a relationship it will be through her, but I need the marriage certificate to tell me what her last name was, and it would also be interesting to see who her father was. Unfortunately I have been unable to find a marriage. I found Leonard's brother's marriage, but that's not much good to me. I think that the 'Bartelmeh' name is probably transcribed wrongly on it (as are all the census records and some other BMDs for the family). I have also looked through the marriages in Sunderland between 1885-8 beginning with 'B' and found nothing that looks like a corruption of Bartelmeh. I have drawn a blank, does anyone have any ideas how I could track down this marriage? Or does anyone have any information about where the family were from? My guess is Belsenberg.
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Hi Richard,
Leonhard Johann C Bartelmeh was married to Wilhelmine (Minnie) Elizabeth Stolz in 1887, Sunderland.
Leonard Bartelmeh lived at 6 High Street West, Sunderland according to the Historic Directories for Durham.
They are to be found on FindMyPast as no other as "Bartlunch". Living with them is their daughter Florence, born 1899, Albert Shellabrog (Shellenberg) born 1873 (place unidentifiable), Catherine "Stotley"?? and Johanna Wniderlish (Winderlich??) born 1874. The address is the same as the directory (I found them through the address search).
J. Bartelmeh was living at 264 High Street West, Sundeland, according to the Durham Trades Directory but I couldn't find him as yet on FindMyPast-
Charles August Kraft was also had a pork butcher's shop in Sunderland and I have him in my tree.
Maybe I'll find more but tomorrow is another day!!
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Just before I call it a day:
Elisabete Wilhelmina Bartelmeh of 32 Marlborough Road, Manningham, Bradford, widow, died Nov 1929, Probate Durham to Hilda Margaret Rayner (wife of William Rayner) and Lina Regina Bartelmeh, spinster.
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Thank you so much. I had a lot of their background, although you have to be a bit creative with the searches as the name gets a bit mangled as you found out. It was the marriage that I really wanted and now I can try to link her to my tree. Thanks!
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Hello zelo 1954,
Thank you very much for showing your documents to us. With these we can see what relations and connections there existed between different families. This helps us with our further research. We have already realized that most of the German pork butchers came from Hohenlohe and learn that the Hohenlohe emigrants established a close-knit family and business network in Britain.
Best wishes
Histres
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Hello Robert,
The name Bartelmeh is a derivation of Bartholomew, in German "Bartholomäus", probably brought to Hohenlohe by some Huguenot immigrants. There are various spellings of the name in the area like Barthelmess, Barthelmäh, Bartelmeß and others. A glance into the phonebook of the area revealed that there exists a Bartelmeh family in Weldingsfelden, only 3 miles from Belsenberg, where the Funks came from.
A quick phone call generated the following: The Bartelmehs in exactly this spelling have lived there for a long time. Unfortunately, the present bearer of the name didn't know his grandparents because of early deaths and his parents died early as well, so that he couldn't get much information from his own family. But some neighbours spread rumours that in the past some descendants of the family emigrated to England and even to Australia. We can get some prove by looking into the church records. Weldingsfelden at the time belonged to the Hohebach parish. I think with Weldingsfelden we're on the right track.
Regards
Histres
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Sorry,
of course I wanted to write Richard and not Robert. Forgive me.
Histres
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I wanted to do a post that showed how linked the Hohenlohe community in Britain was and how these connections were not hampered by geography. I noticed in a few previous posts the Roger family was mentioned. Two brothers, Karl Friedrich Ernst Roger and Friedrich C. Roger, were identified. I am not sure of the connection, but I have a Frederike Roger (abt. 1859) in my tree. She married John Leonard Kantenwein, my great great uncle, in Barrow, Cumbria in 1879. Her father isn’t listed on the marriage certificate for some reason!
John Leonard Kantenwein was brother to my great grandmother Margaret Funk (nee Kantenwein) and was a cousin of Kantenweins of Boston, who appeared recently in a post and we discovered that they donated a window to the church in Morsbach. One of his cousins, Eva Katharina Frederika Rosina Kantenwein (of Morsbach, 1858) married Friedrich Frank (1857), who had a shop at 19 Westgate Peterborough.
The mother of the Boston Kantenweins was Susanna Elisabetha Hohenrein. She was the brother of George Hohenrein (of Morsbach, 1832), who was also briefly mentioned in an earlier post. George came to England when he was 16 and was apprenticed to G. H. Friedrich in Mytongate, Hull. At 18 he opened his own shop at 7 Waterworks Street.
He married Katharina Christina Meyer (of Kunzelsau, 1837), who had a brother, Friedrich Meyer (1830), who set up shop in Wellingborough, Northamptonshire. Friedrich married Susanna Rosina Schoeppler (of Kunzelsau, 1824), whose brother, Louis, also owned a shop in Peterborough, at 9 Westgate.
The third Meyer sibling was Caroline (1835). She married Georg Heinrich Sperer (of Kunzelsau, 1824). The Sperers too had shops in Peterborough. Their daughter was Louisa Rose Sperer (1855), who married George Hagg (of Eberbach, 1855). He set up shop in Chesterfield, whilst his brother, John (1863), had a shop in Rotherham. I heard that the George Haag was going to America when he was caught in a fierce storm. After making port in England he decided that he would never go to sea again, so settled here instead. He came over with Willie Stinfig (not sure of the spelling), who changed his name to Simpson and listed Queen Victoria amongst his customers.
George Haag’s son albert married Laura Funk, who was the niece of my great grandmother Margaret Funk. The brother-in-law of Margaret Funk was Leonard Henry Hub (1863), who settled in Manchester. His son Fred married Mary Magdalena Davidson (whose mother came from Wuerttemberg). The Davidsons were friends with William Kuestner (also settled in Manchester), who was also mentioned in an earlier post, as an apprentice at the above mentioned George Hohenrein’s shop in Hull. I believe that Leonard Henry Hub was also apprenticed there.
The granddaughter of Leonard Henry Hub married Eric Alfred Samet/Sumner (1908), whose maternal aunt, Barbara Koppenhofer (1869), married Karl Kantenwein/Smith (of Wolfsolden, 1869). Karl was a distant cousin of Margaret Kantenwein, who set up shop in the Durham area, and thus probably knew Leonard Bartelmeh, who has been mentioned in a previous post and had a shop in Gateshead (I have ordered his marriage certificate). Leonard was friends with George and Margaret Funk, along with a Mr Heink and a Mr Hertrich, possibly John Hertrich (of Belsenberg, 1859) who had a shop in Westoe, which as coincidence would have it was also where another branch of Hubs had a shop. John Hertrich even apprenticed a Karl Hub in 1891.
I am aware that this is a long and confusing post, but it does show, how seemingly unrelated families were all linked together regardless of geography and how connected the Hohenlohe community was. If anyone has an interest in any of the families that I have mentioned then I can supply more detailed information on request.
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Good evening Richard,
It'a absolutely gorgeous how much information you have for us. But with your remarks on George Hohenrein I am a bit puzzled. Following your remarks, Hohenrein took over the shop in 7 Waterworks Street in Hull when he was 18. That would have been in 1850.
However, in the 1881 Census there is a George Wittmann on the premises. Wittman had previously been in Barrow-in-Furness and must have come to Hull between 1875 and 1879.
In the 1891 census, Wittmann resides at 21 Waterworks Street. At 7 Waterworks Street is now a George Hohenrein with his family, having two domestic servants: Rosina Magdalena Kurz (26 yrs.) and Maria Magdalena Schumann (22 yrs.).
Was this George Hohenrein the son or another relative of the George Hohenrein you mentioned?
Kind regards
Histres
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Evening Histres
The situation seems to be this. In 1850 George Friedrich Hohenrein (1832) opened his shop at 7 Waterworks Street, Hull, although I can't find him on the 1851 census as yet (I need to study this family in greater detail). In 1861 George is living at 7 Waterworks Street, with his wife and daughter, Marie Frederike.
In 1871 George is living at 4 Victoria Street, and George Whitmann (1845) is listed as living at 7 Waterworks Street, with two other servants. Crucially Whitmann is listed as a 'Servant' and not 'Head', despite being first in the list (no 'Head' is listed for 7 Waterworks Street). From this I assume that George Hohenrein still owned the shop, but lived at 4 Victoria Street, which was, in fact, called Derringham Cottage. Hohenrein's job is listed as pork butcher, whereas Whitmann is only an assistant pork butcher, so he didn't run the shop.
By 1881 George Whitmann has married and is listed as 'Head' and 'Pork Butcher' at 7 Waterworks Street. I think he is running the shop on behalf of Hohenrein, who I can't find in 1881. I know that Hohenrein opened a second shop at 22 Princes Avenue, Hull, so maybe he was involved in running that and needed someone to run 7 Waterworks Street for him.
In 1891 George Hohenrein is still living at Derringham Cottage with his family. Whitmann has moved further up the road to 21 Waterworks Street. At number 7 is George William Hohenrein (1865), George Hohenrein's eldest son. George Jnr was married to Julie Biermann, who was born in Germany.
George Snr died in 1902 and left a fortune of £60,000-70,000 to his eldest son George Jnr. However, George Jnr moved to Germany in 1907, due to the ill health of his wife. The business passed to his brother Charles Henry Hohenrein (later changed to Ross). George Jnr died in Wuerzberg in 1933.
In a final twist of fate, Else, the daughter of George Jnr married a man called Alf Bartelmeh. They moved to America. Their daughter, Jean Bartel, was an actress and winner of the 1943 Miss World - Google her.
Much of my information comes from details received from the late Charles Ross, Charles Henry's son. There is a handy round up of his research in John Markam, Keep the Home Fires Burning: Hull Area in the First World War (1982), part 2.
Richard
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*John Markham, 1988 not 1982.
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Hello Richard,
Thank you very much for this interesting and profound answer. Stay online as I am just about to write an e-mail to you, containing some more information on Rüblingen families and their involvement in the network.
Best wishes
Histres
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Richard
I don't think the Frederike Roger you mention is a sister of Karl F.E. & Frederick C Roger. They were 2 of a family of 10 Rogers from Niedernhall but Frederike is not listed (source Glen Roger). The 1891 Census records Fred Rogers (Frederick C) servant working for a family named Howson in Barrow in Furness. He was a porkbutcher and married to a Sophie Weber (Bradford 1993). They had 6 children 3 of whom had died at the time of the 1911 census. Thanks to Swissgirl I now have 3 of their daughters, Florence born in Birmingham, Maude bn in Biddulp and Winifred in Barrow in Furness. So far I have had no success in tracing these 3 children. There appears to have been a number of Roger(s) familys in Barrow in Furness so without ordering a lot of marriage certs I can't progress. Anybody any ideas?
Rebew
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Rebew
The Rogers are very confusing. I have also had contact with Glen Roger, and the only possible sibling that Fredericke could have been to Karl died in infancy.
As I have mentioned I have Fredericke's marriage certificate, which doesn't list her father. The witnesses are Charles Schuman (possibly a baker who turns up in London, in 1901 I think as Frederick C. Schuman). The other is Jane Wilson. I know that one of Fredericke's children married a Wilson, although I don't know his name. Not much to go on with that. I imagine that if she is not a sister of Karl, then she must be a cousin or close relative. It seems too coincidental for there to be two Roger families from Germany in Barrow/Ulverston and them not to be related.
The whole wedding seems to be somewhat irregular. I just can't figure out why she wouldn't give her father's name and it seems odd that one of the witnesses is English, as Fredericke can't have been over here long and Hohenlohe migrants tended to stick to their own community. Furthermore she doesn't have a profession, just spinster, this too is irregular as I would expect her to be in domestic service. It begs the question that if she wasn't working, who was supporting her? One of the other Roger families? Then why aren't there any Roger witnesses on the certificate?
Leonard Kantenwein also lies about his age. He says that he is 21 when he is actually 19. My guess at the reason for this is that the legal age to marry without parental concent was 21, and as his parents lived in Germany, this would not be easy to get. I also think that they were under a certain amount of pressure to get married, as they are married on 2nd Nov 1879 and have their first child between Jan-Mar of 1880. Interestingly two of their children have the middle name Jane - not very German.
Richard
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Hi Richar,
I would agree with you that the 2 Roger families are related.
It would be the norm for ethnic groups or nationalities to reside in the same localities of their adopted country. It has also been the way and still is up to the present day.
Regarding the wedding cert, I too have come across this. The sister of Sophie Roger nee Weber (bn in Germany) married a Walther Judd in Yorkshire. The father of the Bride, also German, is not listed for some reason.
Rebew
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I'm just 'bumping' this thread, incase there are others out there who are unaware of it, and are searching for German pork butcher ancestors :)
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Hi - if anybody has a copy of either the "German Pork Butchers in Britain" book by Sue Gibbons, or the article "Germans in Sheffield 1817-1918" by G Newton, I'd really appreciate knowing if there are any references to the Ebert or Kramer families. I can't find the article online as I don't have an ATHENS login.
My ancestor Frederick Ebert (born c1773) & his wife Martha moved to Sheffield from London around 1820, where a John Michael Ebert was already living - both Frederick & John Michael were pork butchers, and one daughter married Frederick Kramer, born Germany c1810, also a pork butcher. I'm guessing the Eberts were German too, but have nothing concrete.
I've learned so much today about the migrations form Wurttemburg, thanks!
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Hello Kathie,
Welcome to the thread. Both families, the Eberts and the Kramers are mentioned in Gerald Newton's booklet. Gerald Newton collected all entries of German pork butchers in the 19th century Sheffield directories. The entries on the Eberts are as follows:
Ebert, Michael, pork butcher, Change-alley. 1817
Ebert, Michael, pork, bacon and ham dealer, wholesale and retail, 15 Change alley. 1825
Ebert, Frederick, pork, bacon and ham dealer, wholesale and retail, 1 Pinstone street. 1825
Ebert, William, pork butcher, 73 Broomhall road. 1863, 1864
Ebert, Mr Charles, Crooksmoor side. 1864
Ebert, Mrs Frances, 14 Gell street. 1849,1864
Ebert, Charles, professor of languages, 3 Hartshead; h Steel Bank. 1864
It seems that the Eberts came from Künzelsau in Hohenlohe, North-Eastern Baden Württemberg, Germany.
In the official description of the Künzelsau district, the chronicler confirms in 1883: “There is specifically a considerable migration to England. At first it was Johann Michael Ebert, born in 1771, then Christian Friedrich Ebert, born in 1775, who went as pork butchers to England. Both were able to get into good conditions. After that they were followed by many young men who made their fortune there and were fond of returning in later years”.
This quote was translated from: Beschreibung des Oberamts Künzelsau. Hrsg. v.d. K. statistisch-topographischen Bureau. Stuttgart: W. Kohlhammer, 1883. XI, 911 Seiten. (Reprint: Magstadt: Horst Bissinger, 1969).
In Gerald Newton's Sheffield list there are 19 entries on the Kramers. If you wished I could send you them by e-mail. For that you've got to do two more posts for enabling me to send a personal message.
I suppose that the Kramer (originally Krämer) family also came from Künzelsau or not far away from there.
As soon as we have some personal contact I will send you the address of Künzelsau's town archivist, who can probably find out more on the Eberts and their forefathers in Künzelsau.
I personally would be interested in photos of the butcher shops or in letter heads of the butcher's firms. Perhaps you have got such material saved in your family.
Kind regards
Histres
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Oh wow, that's fantastic, thank you so much. I had almost given up on this line. It doesn't surprise me that Frederick had another first name - Johan Michael seem's to have mainly used Michael, and the Kramers also had a habit of dropping their first names.
(John) Michael Ebert was in Sheffield at least by 1801 as his son was buried there aged 3. (Christian) Frederick Ebert had children in London in 1815 & 1817, but appears in Sheffield in 1822 Baines directory
Sadly I have no photos from my dad's family - but there a drawing on Ancestry of Pinstone Street in 1840 - I will upload & send to you when I can.
Regards
Kathie
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Hi Histress,
All within an hour and a half, WOW.
Well done
Rebew
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Hi Histress,
All within an hour and a half, WOW.
Well done
Rebew
I agree, never fails to surprise :D
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I'd really appreciate knowing if there are any references to the Ebert or Kramer families.
Dear Kathie,
Last Friday I visited a family of Künzelsau who had forefathers that were pork butchers in Bradford. Those were Carl Frederick Beyer of Künzelsau (1843 - 1915) and his wife Louisa Caroline née Hartmann (*1842 Derby, +1922 Künzelsau). This Beyer family was closely related to a Kramer (Krämer) family of Sheffield and I have the strong feeling that this is the Krämer family you are looking for. The Krämers originate from Gaisbach near Künzelsau, where one of the forefathers ran the village inn. Other relations existed to a Frederick (Friedrich) family of Hull and a Charles Krämer of Sheffield is described as a wholesale dealer of tea.
Have you ever come across these links to the Beyer and Friedrich families in your Krämer family?
The Künzelsau family lent me their "English" photo album to take scans of the photos. In there are also pictures of some Krämer family members. Are you interested?
In return I would be interested in the drawing of Pinstone street that you mentioned in your last post.
Best wishes
Histres
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Hi Histres my Friend
Hopefully next month July, I may get a reply from the Red Cross reference the internment camp, keeping my fingers crossed mate, I'll contact you as soon as I receive any news
Freundiche Grüße
John
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Hi Everyone,
Here's something I learned while I have been researching the family tree, please bear with me and I will explain.
While I wait for Christians internment records, I started searching on Christians wife, Mary Dixon, sunrise: 1876 Bewcastle Cumberland, sunset: 08/11/1955 Carlisle, Cumberland. (Mary and the Family became committed Salvationists during the hardships with Christians internment).
Mary Dixon's Father was William Dixon, sunrise: 1851 Burgh by Sands, Cumberland.
Mary's Mother was Margaret, sunrise: Bewcastle 1850.
I could not find Margaret's maiden name and thought I would not get any further. Then a person on Rootschat told me there was a possibility that Margaret's maiden name could be Mitchell, but would not be able to confirm for a week or so.
Now here is my little tip.....whilst searching my ancestors, I always print, scan, copy, file, save, ALL family members in the records I come across, including siblings, cousins, nieces etc etc.
I had a look at Christian and Mary's children and noted that in 1903, one of their children was baptized George Karl MITCHELL Wall.
There you have it....seeemples, here endeth the lesson :D ;) or does everybody do that already and I'm just daft :'( ;D ;D ;D
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Hi Histres
No, I haven't come across Beyer or Friedrich, but I did find some pork butcher Kramers living in Bradford in the mid 1800s, and I suspect they were related to the Sheffield Kramers. Hiller and Lang are the other names I have come across.
I haven't found a Charles Kramer who was a tea dealer, only pork butchers (father b1819 in germany, son b1850 in Sheffield). My attention was drawn to the Kramers because I thought they might help with my Ebert ancestors - Frederick Kramer (pork butcher) married Mary Ann Ebert (daughter of Frederick Ebert) in 1844 in Sheffield, and John Christian Kramer occupied the same butchers shop at 1 Pinstone Street that Frederick Ebert previously occupied. Also, John Christian Kramer's wife was born in Westminster at around the same time that Frederick Ebert lived in Westminster. I suspect John Christian Kramer and Frederick Kramer were brothers, maybe Charles too.
I've searched the Baden-Wurtemmburg land records that are online and have found reference to a Johann Michael Ebert as a miller in Hurden near Bachlingen in about 1795, and reference to a divorce application by Friedrich Ebert of Hurden in 1801. As 'my' Frederick Ebert married in Westminster in 1805, this could possibly be him, and I thought I had managed to order a copy of the document through the website - but my German is not very good and I find the site quite confusing - and they didn't ask for any money, so I'm not surprised that nothing has arrived. ::)
I've attached the drawing of Pinstone Street below - I think No 1 would be the 2nd shop from the left. Charles Kramer later had a shop at 5 Pinstone Street. Yes please I would like to see the Kramer pictures, even though they are not directly linked to me.
Thanks
Kathie
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Hello All,
First post in this thread.
I learned that Frederike Roger, sister of Karl Friedrich died in infancy from a friend who did some research for me in Germany and I have passed that information on as fact.
Is it possible that I have reported an error and that Frederike did NOT die as reported?
I wonder if someone might be able to check to see if Christiane Friedrike Röger (born 23 MAY 1858 in Niedernhall, sister of Karl Friedrich Ernst Röger and daughter of Christian Karl Röger and Christina Friederike Dünger) did in fact die 10 JUL 1859 or might she be Frederike of Ulverston?
Thanks.
Glen
Richard
I don't think the Frederike Roger you mention is a sister of Karl F.E. & Frederick C Roger. They were 2 of a family of 10 Rogers from Niedernhall but Frederike is not listed (source Glen Roger). The 1891 Census records Fred Rogers (Frederick C) servant working for a family named Howson in Barrow in Furness. He was a porkbutcher and married to a Sophie Weber (Bradford 1993). They had 6 children 3 of whom had died at the time of the 1911 census. Thanks to Swissgirl I now have 3 of their daughters, Florence born in Birmingham, Maude bn in Biddulp and Winifred in Barrow in Furness. So far I have had no success in tracing these 3 children. There appears to have been a number of Roger(s) familys in Barrow in Furness so without ordering a lot of marriage certs I can't progress. Anybody any ideas?
Rebew
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Welcome to the thread Glen, that is an interesting attachment, where is that from?
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The researcher in Germany, Erika Lanz, found it in a Family Book in the village of Niedernhall. She sent me several jpegs but the resolution isn't great and neither is my German.
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Taking a wild guess, I take it that the dates marked with a cross are the death dates. Fascinating attachment.
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I wonder if someone might be able to check to see if Christiane Friedrike Röger (born 23 MAY 1858 in Niedernhall, sister of Karl Friedrich Ernst Röger and daughter of Christian Karl Röger and Christina Friederike Dünger) did in fact die 10 JUL 1859 or might she be Frederike of Ulverston?
Hello glen_roger,
According to the attached list of children, Christiane Friedrike (child No. 3) was born on 23rd May 1858 and died on 10th July 1859. That means she died in infancy and can't be identical with Friedericke Röger from Ulverston.
Kind regards
Histres
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My attention was drawn to the Kramers because I thought they might help with my Ebert ancestors - Frederick Kramer (pork butcher) married Mary Ann Ebert (daughter of Frederick Ebert) in 1844 in Sheffield....-....and have found a Johann Michael Ebert as a miller in Hurden near Bachlingen.
Hello Kathiesummers,
Thank you very much for the drawing of Pinstone Street.
It seems, that the Kramers I found might not be the right ones. Anyway I will send you the pics. Just write me a personal message with your e-mail address and I'm going to send them to you via e-mail because I haveare several photzos and they are in a high resolution.
The Frederick Ebert you found as a miller of Hürden has nothing to do with your forefathers. Ebert is a very common name in the area of Hohenlohe. They often were millers in different villages. You can take as granted that your Frederick Ebert and his brother Christian Ebert both originated from Künzelsau. I might find evidence some day.
Kind regards
Histres
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Ebert is a very common name in the area of Hohenlohe. They often were millers in different villages.
Hello Kathiesummers,
There were many Ebert millers around in the Hohenlohe area. They formed a real dynasty on mills. There was also a Frederick Ebert with his wife Eva Maria on the mill in Bächlingen in 1833 like the plate below shows.
Best wishes
Histres
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Hello Kathiesummers,
Just a short note. I found your forefathers you were looking for in the Künzelsau church archive; the Ebert brothers as well as Frederick Kramer (Krämer). Here is what the archive entries say:
Johann Michael Ebert, born in Künzelsau on 27th January 1771, married in London (7th child);
Christian Friedrich Ebert, born in Künzelsau on 9th August 1775, married in London (9th child).
Parents of both:
Johann Andreas Ebert (1729 - 1803), baker and publican of the "Tankard Inn" and Magdalena Leicht (1735 - 1805), daughter of Augustin Leicht, butcher and publican of the "Horse Inn".
Christof FRIEDRICH Krämer, born in Künzelsau on 6th August 1810, butcher at Sheffield, died there on 2nd December 1873.
Parents: Christian Heinrich Krämer (1777 - 1853) butcher in Künzelsau (his father was a butcher, too, and publican of the "Rose Inn") and Maria Margaretha Kraft (1783 - 1844), daughter of a butcher in Künzelsau.
You see, your forefathers descended from long-established Künzelsau butcher and publican families, that married into each others families and formed a strong business network.
The Eberts and the Krämers were related, too. An older brother of the two Eberts mentioned above, took over the "Tankard Inn" and was married to the sister of Christof Frederick Krämer's father.
I will send you copies of the entries as soon as I have time to do so.
Kind regards
Histres
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Outstanding post Histres
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Histres, you are a complete star!! :-*
The marriages in London (how amazing that those are recorded!) and the Kramer connection mean that it's definitely 'my' Frederick EBERT. And to think that only a few weeks ago, all I knew was that he was most probably German!
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After 2 years of waiting for an answer from the IRC, it looks like I may be getting a reply soon.
Histres, I'll mail you when ever I get a reply my friend ;)
Geneva, 07.09.2011
Concern: Information request for Christian Frederick WALL
(Ref.: AAG-002030)
Dear Sir,
We refer to your request dated 08.07.2009 seeking information about your great-grandfather, Mr Christian Frederick WALL.
We would like to remind you that since October 2009, individual searches for people held as prisoners of war or civilian internees during the First World War are subject to a contractual fee of 200 Swiss francs. However, and as before, there is no charge for unsuccessful searches.
In case of positive result, payment must be made by credit card.
If you wish to maintain your enquiry and you agree to the conditions set out above, please provide us with:
- your credit card number and type (Visa or MasterCard only)
- its expiry date (not less than six months of validity remaining)
at our postal address (Attn: Archives Division) or by e-mail (gva_cim_aim_pta {-at--} icrc.org).
If we do not receive a response from you within eight weeks, we shall consider your request cancelled.
We stay at your disposal should you need additional information.
Yours faithfully,
Magali Chahlaoui-Girod
ICRC Archives
Moderator Comment: e-mail edited, to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please replace {--at--} with @
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Hi,
I am researching my own family tree and have stumbled across German Pork Butchers...
'Mine' are from Wakefield and the names are Meenz and Schwab
(on the NA website they have naturalisation papers - does anyone know what info they can provide?)
the online index says that the families originally came from Wuertemberg.
I would be grateful for any advice anyone can give to me in pushing my research back.
Best wishes,
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Good evening Johnbhoy,
It's great to hear from you again my friend. The news you got are very promising. I hope the IRC archives can deliver you some substantial information on the internment of Christian Frederick Wall. I'm very excited to hear from you soon.
Best wishes
Histres
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Dear MeenzHunters,
After all the research I did, I would suggest that the name Meenz is an anglicised version of "Münz". There were several Münz families in England, all of them living in and around Bradford. Therefore it would be useful to know a forename and perhaps a hint when your Münz forefather was born or came to England.
The Münz families I know of, all emigrated from Hohebach on the river Jagst.
It would also be of much use to me if I knew how the Meenz' were related to the Schwabs. The Schwabs most probably emigrated from Künzelsau. Here again a forename and a year would be useful.
Kind regards
Histres
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Hi Histres,
I am happy to accept any suggestions.
Frederick John Meenz was born in 1831 and was naturalised in 1860
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=7&CATID=-2201552
He was married to Susannah Dorothea Schwab (1825) and had 5 sons one of whom is my ancestor born in 1960 in wakefield
Susannahs Brother was called John Louis William Schwab (1816) and he was naturalised in 1955
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=7&CATID=-2200354
Both Frederick and Susannah are described as pork butchers in the censuses as are the Schwabs.
Best wishes,
MeenzHunters
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Good evening Johnbhoy,
It's great to hear from you again my friend. The news you got are very promising. I hope the IRC archives can deliver you some substantial information on the internment of Christian Frederick Wall. I'm very excited to hear from you soon.
Best wishes
Histres
You'll be the first to know mate, I'll mail you as soon as I receive them ;)
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Hi Histres,
I am happy to accept any suggestions.
Frederick John Meenz was born in 1831 and was naturalised in 1860
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=7&CATID=-2201552
He was married to Susannah Dorothea Schwab (1825) and had 5 sons one of whom is my ancestor born in 1960 in wakefield
Susannahs Brother was called John Louis William Schwab (1816) and he was naturalised in 1955
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=7&CATID=-2200354
Both Frederick and Susannah are described as pork butchers in the censuses as are the Schwabs.
Best wishes,
MeenzHunters
Hi MeenzHunters and welcome to the thread.
You are very fortunate that you have found the Naturalisation papers in the NA, as some of the posters on this thread, myself included, had ancestors that did not become British Nationals and it then becomes a nightmare LOL.
I wish you all the best
Johnbhoy
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Thanks JohnbHoy,
I havent yet had the chance to view them - does anyone know how much info they contain?
Thanks, i'll keep the forum posted as i find out what i can!
MeenzHunters
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Dear MeenzHunter,
The Schwab family that is described by you, came from Künzelsau. John Louis William Schwab was born there on 8th December 1815 (not in 1816 as you wrote) and emigrated to England on 1st June 1844 only a couple of days after his marriage (Town archive “Stadtarchiv” Künzelsau, B 502). In White's West Riding Yorkshire Directory of 1857-8 he is listed on p. 590 as Louis Schwab of 27 Kirkgate in Wakefield.
Frederick Meenz is listed on the same page at 93 Westgate and in 117 Kirkgate there was a Frederick Roll and in 151 Kirkgate a Henry Roll. The Roll brothers were also from Künzelsau. It is most likely that the Meenz family also came from Künzelsau or its surroundings.
There is much evidence that all these Künzelsau people knew each other and went to England in some kind of family based chain migration.
Best wishes
Histres
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Dear Histres,
Thanks so much for this information, is there any mention of John Louis William Schwab's parents? or even his sister?
I think it is likely that more of the family came over too - seeing as atleast one other of the JLW Schwab's siblings came.
How do i search the Künzelsau archives?
Best wishes and many thanks,
MeenzHunter
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Dear Histres,
Are you aware of the immigration routes taken by our Pork Butcher ancestors. Can you tell us more of what the journey would have been like in the 1850s?
Thanks.
Glen
"The Münz families I know of, all emigrated from Hohebach on the river Jagst."
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Hi, I am researching my own family tree and have stumbled across German Pork Butchers...
'Mine' are from Wakefield and the names are Meenz and Schwab
(on the NA website they have naturalisation papers - does anyone know what info they can provide?)
Hello MeenzHunters and all the others who want to know what information the naturalisation papers can provide. On the following BBC website you can find some useful information:
http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/take-it-further/overseas/german-%E2%80%93%C2%A0emigration-documents
Quote:
“Many immigrants naturalised in the UK after some years – especially in the late 19th or 20th centuries. However, the proportion doing so was tiny up to 1914. The process was expensive and not necessary to stay here.
Those who did naturalise will have given their date and place of birth and their parents' names and you can find these details on their naturalisation certificate and in their Home Office file at the National Archives at Kew”.
Best regards
Histres
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Dear Histres,
Thanks so much for this information, is there any mention of John Louis William Schwab's parents? or even his sister?
I think it is likely that more of the family came over too - seeing as at least one other of the JLW Schwab's siblings came.
How do i search the Künzelsau archives?
Best wishes and many thanks,
MeenzHunters
Hello MeenzHunters,
As John Louis William Schwab (in German: Johann Ludwig Wilhelm Schwab) was born in Künzelsau, his parents are registered in the family books of Künzelsau's church archive and so are his siblings. The Church Archive and Künzelau's town archive closely work together. Therefore you may send your enquiry to:
Stadtarchiv Künzelsau, Stadtverwaltung
Stuttgarter Str. 7
D-74653 Künzelsau
Tel.: 0049-7940-129-117
E-mail: stefan.kraut {--at--} kuenzelsau.de
Best wishes
Histres
Moderator Comment: e-mail edited, to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please replace {--at--} with @
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Dear Histres,
Are you aware of the immigration routes taken by our Pork Butcher ancestors. Can you tell us more of what the journey would have been like in the 1850s?
Thanks.
Glen
Hello glen_roger,
Most probable the early emigration during the first half of the 19th century and before, took place on foot or by horse-drawn carriages or coaches to a place on the river Rhine, from where the emigrants could enter a boat. Things became better, when in 1841 the Heilbronn Neckar steamship company was founded that offered a regular service between Heilbronn and Mannheim.
From 1842 onwards there was a regular service on the river Rhine to Rotterdam.
So the Hohenlohe emigrants went by carriage to Heilbronn, from there on the river Neckar to Mannheim and from there on the river Rhine to Rotterdam. Sailing boats and steamships then took the emigrants to the ports on England's southern and eastern coast, especially to London and to Hull.
Hull was also very popular for transmigrants who wanted to go on to America and had only to bridge the comparably short distance on land between Hull and Liverpool.
From 1861 on, it is repeatedly reported that the Hohenlohe emigrants could use the newly established railway connections which took them to Hamburg. From there they reached Hull in a 24 hour crossing.
Regards
Histres
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Thanks Histres for all this info, must have been quite some trek!
I have contacted the archives today and i look forwards to their reply - i shall let you all know when i find out more!
best wishes,
MeenzHunters
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Hi All
Received a reply from the IRC, confirming that Christian Frederick Wall was indeed a civilian internee during WW1.
He was actually detained in 2 camps, one of them being at Handforth in Cheshire.
The reply also gives a serial number which should be handy for future reference.
Thanks again to Histress for his assistance.
With over 42,000 hits and 280+ posts, there is definitely a big interest out there on our German relatives who came to the UK and went into the butcher trade.
Happy researching to all
Johnbhoy
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really interested to read history about George Wittmann as I am a descendent of his sister in law, who came over to marry him, presumably from the same area. . I have found that in 1771 he lived 6/7 Waterworks st, Hull, presumably having just come over. on that census record his birth place is Württemberg, Runglsaw - can I find out anymore about this area and its inhabitants? It may be then that I can trace my great grandmother Rosa Steinbach more. she was George's sister in law.
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Good morning,
The place you are looking for is Künzelsau in Baden-Württemberg. It must be one of the most wrongly transcribed places in Baden-Württemberg ::)
My great grandfather was from Küenzelsau (Kuenzelsau).
I remember doing some research and came across the Wittmans. Someone else mentioned Rosa Steinbach on this thread but at the moment I don't have time to search.
However, I may have time this afternoon or evening.
Until then
Gill
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thank you. I think it was probably me who mentioned all this a year ago! I'm just back onto it again! thank you for the Kunzelsau correction! How do i find lists of names form there!?!?!
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sorry, kuenzelsau is it?
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Künzelsau is the German spelling but on some English sites it is easier to use Kuenzelsau.
However, Künzelsau was the town most of the emigrants put on their application to leave and the actual birth place might be a village under the jurisdiction of the aforementioned.
Histres would be able to help you here but I happen to know he is very busy at the moment. Maybe he will look in over the holidays.
BTW, you mentioned the "1771" census! I realised what you meant was the 1871 census. Just so that others won't be confused.
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Here's a map of the area:
http://maps.google.ch/maps?hl=de&tab=wl&q=K%C3%BCnzelsau
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Frohe Weihnachten to all
Johnbhoy :)
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I wish you that, too, Johnboy and all other researchers, be they Pork Butcher ancestors or not!!
Gill
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Oh dear!!
I meant "whether they have" Pork Butcher ancestors or not!!
Must be the sherry trifle ;D ;D ;D
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Oh dear!!
I meant "whether they have" Pork Butcher ancestors or not!!
Must be the sherry trifle ;D ;D ;D
It made perfect sense to me Gill, guess I was on the same sherry trifle ;D ;D ;D
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Hello
This is my first post, and as I specialise in images of Hull & East Yorkshire, I could help with a photograph of Waterworks Street, Hull which shows the Hohenrein shop.
Hope this helps all those interested,
Regards, LORDLINE
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what year is this? my ancestors, also pork butchers, lived at no 7 in 1881 and no 21 in 1891. other ancestors, also butchers, occupied 12 Prince St, for 30 years at least.
it's a lovely photo, thank you.
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Thanks for your reply, I believe this to be around 1903, but would welcome additional feedback if anyone else has any further information.
I do have a few images of Prince Street, but unfortunately none showing any butchers etc...
Regards, LORDLINE
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they just lived there, not worked from there. thank you.
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Welcome to the thread Lordline,
that's a nice photo you posted and indeed very useful to complement my research on German pork butchers in Great Britain.
George Hohenrein took over the premises at 7 Waterworks Street from the butcher Georg Wittmann in the early 1880s.
I wonder if there are other photos in your Hull collection that show the street situation or the shops of
Frederick Most, 19 Lincoln Street (1880s onwards)
Frederick Roll 44 Pelham Street (1900 onwards)
Kress & Wagner 162 Spring Bank and also 82 Welbeck Street (since 1899)
Thank you again for enhancing the thread!
Histres
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Hi Histres
Thanks for your nice comments etc ... I've had a quick look at my archives but can not find any, sorry, however I do have lots of images of Spring Bank. I'll upload some of Spring Bank to my website over the next few days. Please visit lordline.co.uk when you get a few minutes.
Best, LORDLINE
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Hello LORDLINE,
Thank you for your quick answer and your hints.
I have already had a quick look at your website: Very impressing. I will check it again later to see what Spring Bank looked like about 100 years ago.
Have a happy and prosperous New Year.
Histres
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Hi 0113vanny,
I realized that your Wittmann ancestors came from Künzelsau. SwissGill suggested to ask me for further help.
Meanwhile I have phoned the Künzelsau archive, but unfortunately the archivist is on holiday until mid-January. Therefore you need to be a bit patient in wishing quick evidence from there. But now that we have the origin Künzelsau it should be no problem to get further information from there.
As far as the Wittmanns and the Hohenreins are concerned with their shop in 7 Waterworks Street - did you notice that the were subject in some posts on 3rd April 2011 on page 25 in this thread?
Best regards
Histres
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thank you so much. I think that brothers George and John wittman came over, John with his wife Mathilda, (nee steinbach) Her sister Rose Steinbach then came over, presumably to join her and find work. This Rose is my great grandmother and it is hers and the Wittmans origins I am interested.
thank you for your help.
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Yes I did see the thread on p 25 and seem to remember looking into George Wittman being in Barrow but came to the conclusion that this was a different George Wittman.
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in 1891 and 1901 Rose and Matilda's mother Julia Steinbach is living with them in Hull. She was born in Wurtemburg in 1830. she is living with George and Matilda Wittman.
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Hi 0113vanny,
I do know about the people mentioned in the different censuses, I have copies of the documents, referring to 7 Waterworks Street.
I wish you and all the others whom we owe so many thanks for their help in researching the pork butcher ancestors a Happy and Peaceful New Year.
Best
Histres
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Dear Histres
I've added a good selection of Spring Bank (Hull) images to my website; lordline.co.uk
I hope that you find these of interest.
Best regards, LORDLINE
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Dear LORDLINE,
Thank you very much for putting those 31 photographs of Spring Bank on your website. They definitely give me a good impression of how the street looked like in former times, especially when there lived so many German pork butchers in the city of Hull and had a couple of shops in Spring Bank, too.
Wishing you a Happy New Year
Histres
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It doesn't surprise me that Frederick had another first name - Johan Michael seem's to have mainly used Michael, and the Kramers also had a habit of dropping their first names.
Regards
Kathie
Hi there,
Sorry to butt in on this thread - I wanted to point out that the first given names are usually the sponsors/god parents names and quite often were family members. Also parents would think about the future of the child and ask a well heeled member of the community to be a sponsor in the hope that the sponsor would act as a benefactor and/or apprentice the child when it grew older. e.g. my grandmother was baptised Sophia Edith Flamme (known as Edie) in Hull 1884 and it was noted that a Sophie Christiene Hedwig Ehlers, grandmother. had "donated" the name. Sophie Ehlers had died in Steinlah, Germany 1881.
.
Quite often it's difficult finding a German on early UK census because the ennumerator/census asks for first names which to a new immigrant means their first donated name on their official documentation.
.
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Thanks Rena and welcome to the thread.
LORDLINE, that is a fantastic photograph, thanks for posting
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Hi folks
Can I jump into the thread to ask if anyone knows anything about Louis Most and his wife Kate who were German Pork butchers in Widnes, they are on 1891 census with Louis aged 28 they both came from Wurttemburg.
I see from Swissgill that she has a family member called Louis Pfisterer who also ran German pork butchers in Widnes, I wonder if they are related or if Louis Most was related to the Yorkshire Mosts who are also Pork butchers.
Louis died young of a strangulated bowel caused by lifting a new sausage machine there is a very detailed obituary for him in the local paper, they had lost both their children in the years before, Kate continued to run the shop but as far as I can find did not remarry.
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Welcome Leslie good to have you onboard, I believe the Rootschat rules is that you have to make 3 posts before receiving further mails, so go ahead and make another 2 posts
Johnbhoy
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Thanks Johnboy post number 2.
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Hi Folks
Post number 3 I am exhausted having just read the full German Pork butchers thread, hope someone can help with the Most family.
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Welcome Lesley, yes indeed, there is a lot of reading and it is a great thread, and I'm sure somebody will be able to point you in the right direction, best of luck
Johnbhoy
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Hi Lesley,
I did some research on Louis Most but will have to go through it again. If I'm right in thinking, he married Katherine Bauer in Bradford, Yorks in 1884.
Louis Pfister married Christina Bower (Bauer) in Bradford in 1881. Louis was a brother to Friederike Pfisterer who married John Heinzmann and they settled in Northwich, Cheshire. They were my grandfather's cousins.
Also living in Widnes were Christina's brother, John Bauer (Bower) married to Mary Pfisterer.
I'll get back to you on this after I've gone through it tomorrow.
Gill
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Brilliant thanks Gill!
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Hi Lesley
When Katherine Most died in December 1924, she left a considerable sum to Annie Kimmerer, wife of George Kimmerer.
Annie married George Kimmerer in 1885 Sheffield and was born about 1860. Her maiden name was Bower anglicised (Bauer).
On the 1901 Census in Bootle, Lancashire, George Bower is in the same household as the Kimmerers and is stated to be a nephew. Kimmerer is "Kümmerer" but the Germans in this part pronounced the u nearly as i.
There is definitely a connection but it will be difficult to trace it. They may be related to "my" Bowers in Widnes but at the moment I can't say conclusively. John Bower and Christina Pfisterer Bower of Widnes were from Doerzbach in Germany.
John Bower gives his father's name as Frederick (Friedrich). Louis Pfisterer was born in Kuenzelsau, the district town and he returned there after 1911 and died there in 1936.
One thing is certain, they must have known each other.
You mention an obituary. It would be interesting to know the mourners' names and family, etc. Maybe there is a clue to be found here.
Gill
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Thanks Gill I had spotted the will and was guessing that Annie was Kate's sister but you have pulled a lot more connections from it.
I am researching Kate as she built had the house I now live in built in 1898 after Louis had died.
In their early life in Widnes they had a servant living with them called Pauline Haas also from Wurttemburg (just got correction through on Find my Past they had miss-transcribed as Haws) Pauline appears next on 1901 census as a house maid to Marion Pehrson 22 Riversdale Rd Nether Hallam Sheffield, looks as if there were lots of connections between the German families in Widnes and Sheffield.
I will look out my copy of the obituary but as I remember there were no other German names on it but I could be wrong.
Thanks
:)
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Hello zelo1954,
In rootschat #221 on page 23 you wrote that your forefather Johann Michael Karl Stier from Morsbach had his shop in Coronation Street in Sunderland.
A census entry revealed that also a John Kühner of Crispenhofen had his shop in 109 Coronation Street, Sunderland. With him worked and lived the pork butcher Carl Vogtherr of Blaufelden. The Vogtherrs emigrated again in 1913. From England they went to Hastings, New Zealand, where they still are in the business as bacon curers.
The above mentioned two shops shouldn't have been too far away from each other.
Therefore I am moved by the questions: Is it a coincidence that Stier and Vogtherr, who should have known each other, ended up in New Zealand. Can we again recognize a family-based pattern of migration? Do you know the Vogtherrs in New Zealand?
Best regards
Histres
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I found a record in the National Archives relating to Fredericka Kantenwein born 6th January 1861 in Kirchensall, Germany.
In it states her nationality is German and she is living at 44 Devon Street, Barrow-in-Furness, Lancashire.
It also states that she is exempt from internment, the reasons being that she is 78 years of age, has lived for 62 years in U.K. and two of her sons served in His Majesty’s Forces in the last war. It is dated 1939.
John Kantenwein, her husband died in 1937.
John Kantenwein, one of her sons, born 1884, Barrow-in-Furness, Lancs., married Sarah Jane Threlfall in 1907 in Barrow-in-Furness and travelled to the United States in 1909, destination Lockport, New York. He gives his wife as Sarah, living at 44 Devon Street, B-in-F.
On a Family Tree it gives his friends as Samuel and Ellen Bunn. I looked up the 1910 US Census and it turns out that Ellen is Sarah Jane’s sister. Also living in the household is her father, Moses Threlfall who emigrated in 1908, 4 years after the death of his wife. They lived at 66 Devon Street, B-in-F.
John Kantenwein is on the 1911 Census with his wife and two children, Thomas and Wilfred at 47 Kent Street, B-in-F.
John died in 1918 and I haven’t found any information on this.
Fredericka’s son, James enlisted for the services on 7.1.1916 and was discharged on 4.4.1918 from the Middlesex Rgt. No. G37962.
Who was the other son???
Most of the FT’s on A’cy give Fredericka’s birth place as Mecklenburg-Vorpommern as child of Heinrich and Marie Röger. I always thought this strange and now, with the proof from TNA, I think otherwise.
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Grüezi SwissGill,
Do you mean, who was the other son who served?
Hope this link works: http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/30911/pages/11221
(last but one paragraph in second column)
Thomas K. changed his name by deed poll to Thomas ROGERS and served in 3rd Infantry Labour Company, Middlesex Regiment.
See http://1914-1918.net/msex_aliens.html
Fredericka’s son, James enlisted for the services on 7.1.1916 and was discharged on 4.4.1918 from the Middlesex Rgt. No. G37962.
Not quite! He was discharged as Private 124740 from the Royal Army Service Corps (it's scribbled in the upper margin of his medal index card!).
Adrian
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Thank you Adrian for the correction of James and the addition of Thomas.
This makes it perfect. The name Rogers derives from his mother's maiden name of Röger.
There are so many FTs on Ancestry stating that Friederike Röger was from Mecklenburg Pommern (probably just copied without verifying) that I now feel happy that this family is "as it should be" with the inclusion of Thomas.
Thank you also for the link about the Middlesex Regiment. Someone on a Sheffield forum was wondering about this Regiment and I googled it and came across The Long Trail.
I am also on the Great War Forum but cannot contribute much.
Gill
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Hi All - my family and I are still mystified as to why our Rothermel Great Grandfathers set up their first Pork Butchers shop in the High Street in Wellingborough Northants. Whilst looking at the 1861 census returns I found a Frederick Meyers, his wife Rosina and family running a Pork Butchers shop at 13 Silver Street Wellingborough. On the 1881 census the Rothermels were at 12 High Street, It appears the Meyers were from Kunzelsau which is a few kilometers from Horlebach where the Rothermels came from. On the 1851 census Frederick Meyers was working as an apprentice pork butcher for Frederick Roll in Wakefield. We think the Rothermels must have arrived in England between 1872 and 1875. But why Wellingborough ? On the 1881 Census Frederick Meyers had retired ( at 51 rather young ) perhaps the Rothermels knew the Meyers and took over the Pork Butcher business in the town? Anyone any ideas ??
Histress has been a great help in the past tracing the family back to 1427 in Wurttemburg
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(http://i39.tinypic.com/jqoxoi.jpg)
My wifes Great Grandfather, Christian Friedrich Wahl, b: Hohebach 1872.
Photo taken in 1912 with his wife (Mary Dixon b: Bewcastle 1876) and their children in Carlisle, Cumbria.
At aged 43 in November 1914, he was " Civillian in British hands, interned in the United Kingdom", Serial # 17837.
Released from internment, he was "Re-interned in Hfth. (Handforth, Cheshire) 10 July 1915" and released at the end of the war
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On the 1881 Census Frederick Meyers had retired (at 51 rather young) perhaps the Rothermels knew the Meyers and took over the Pork Butcher business in the town? Anyone any ideas ??
Hello rothermelbird,
perhaps the following statements might give you an idea why the Rothermels came to Wellingborough:
1. Nearly the complete pork butcher market in the northern counties of England was in the hands of Hohenlohe emigrants.
2. These emigrants had managed to establish a close-knit family- and business network and hence enhanced chain migration from their home country, especially from the districts of Künzelsau, Schwäbisch Hall and Gerabronn.
3. The German immigrants knew each other well and recruited their personnel from relatives, neighbours and friends at home.
4. They knew the market in Great Britain and wherever a person, a journeyman, apprentice or servant was needed, they knew someone at home or they requested someone from their neighbourhood in their home country to fill the gap.
I doubt whether the Rothermels took over the Meyers' shop in Wellingborough because in the 1881 census there is a William Meyer with his family on the shop in 13 Silver Street. He is probably the son or a cousin of Frederick Meyer who had retired. The Rothermels presumably had their own shop in Wellingborough as had also the Franks.
Regards
Histres
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Dear Histress
Thanks so much for the information, it's interesting to know there were 3 or 4 Pork Butchers in these northern towns and it seems most/all were German. Did they set up shops in other parts of Britain ? I presume the Beef Butchers and Game specialists were English - or were they run by German immigrants as well?
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Dear rothermelbird,
The German pork butchers mostly came into the country via Hull, spread out from there and settled in the industrial towns and harbour towns of northern England like Sheffield, Bradford, Leeds, Manchester and later also Liverpool. A second principal focus was of course the British capital London. In the course of a growing market during the second half of the 19th century they also set up numerous shops in smaller villages. Robert Roberts writes:"By the outbreak of the first world war it is doubtful if there was a single Northern town, large or small, that did not have its German pork butchers." The Germans were absolute specialists in pork butchering.
Roy E. Korner mentions: "Pork butchers were frequently listed separately in trade directories, because, unlike butchers who only sold freshly killed beef and lamb, they also supplied cooked meats and pork products in addition to fresh meat. Wherever German pork butchers arrived in England the local population tended to develop a taste for the range of cooked meats, pies and sausages which they produced. Prior to this the English had preferred traditional roast beef, lamb and mutton...".
However, trade directories show that in bigger towns there were also some local British pork butchers coexistent with the Germans. The question is whether they also offered such a wide variety of products and ready cooked meats to take away as the Germans did.
The shop of the Wellingborough Rothermels was in 12 High Street, Wellingborough. Today this address is shown by googlemaps in Finedon, a small village just outside of Wellingborough. The Meyers shop was in the town centre, and if there hadn't been a High Street in Wellingborough itself in those times, the two butchers wouldn't have competed with each other.
Regards
Histres
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Dear Histress I think you may have it wrong about High Street Wellingborough. It did exist in the late 1800's. One of the Rothermel brothers actually married Ellen Pendred who's father ran the Star Inn at no 11 High Street, we think their butcher's shop at no 12 may have been next door.
In Kelly's 1906 directory Naomi Rothermel widow of John was no longer listed as running the shop. Thanks for all your information!
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Hello rothermelbird,
You are right. The Star Inn still exists in Wellingborough. It's No. 10 in the High Street. No. 12 is right next door and Street View shows that the right half of the building is occupied by a Chinese take-away, the "Wing Shing". So the Rothermels and the Pendreds were next door neighbours. The Meyers shop wasn't far away either. Anyway, I think that there was not much competition between the Meyers and the Rothermels as with their wide variety and enormous popularity of their pork products each of the two shops would have had sufficient customers.
Best regards
Histres
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Dear Histres, after looking at some of my research I realise that the Rothermels didn't call themselves Pork Butchers at all on the census returns! Just 'Butchers' one son George Carl left home and started his own shop in another town and called himself a 'Master Butcher' no mention of Pork at all! Would this have meant they sold Beef and Lamb and everything deriving from those two meats, including pies and sausages? If that is the case then they would not have been a threat to the Meyers who had a Pork Butchers shop nearby in Silver Street. Perhaps they did this on purpose as not to have competition?
Frederich Meyer retired early and his shop was taken over by his son William. I found a Frederich Meyer arriving in the Port of London in early 1851 but he sailed from Ostend in Belgium. Another son Frederich was an assistant Pork Butcher in Bradford in 1871, as you say all northern towns in England. It seems I made a big mistake presuming the Rothermels were pork butchers! Would this alter the whole story at all about men from Wurttemburg setting up only pork butchers shops??
Many thanks
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Hello rothermelbird,
if there is no mention on the census returns that the Rothermels were pork butchers, they presumably were beef butchers and sold beef, lamb mutton, perhaps even game or poultry as you suggested in one of your last posts. That could have had to do with the Meyers as pork butchers in their close vicinity. This case, however, doesn't change the whole story about the men from Hohenlohe in Northern Württemberg. We can register the following: Most of the German butcher immigrants who opened shops, did so in the pork butcher business. Here they obviously occupied a niche in the market. Nevertheless, they were very flexible and some of them were both, beef and pork butchers, like the Funks in Sheffield or the Zieglers in Wakefield. Perhaps you find a photograph of the Rothermel shop in Wellingborough that names their trade above their shop window.
On the other hand most of the British butchers were beef butchers, but some also earned their money by selling pork products. I think it wasn't so much a matter of competition, I think it was more a matter of supplying a fast-growing population in the expanding industrial cities of England's North.
Regards
Histres
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Dear Histres Thanks! I have been looking at some old documents and found that on my greatgranfather's marriage certificate to Naomi Shaw in 1877 he was described as Pork Butcher as profession also on the birth of his first son in 1878 he was also a Pork butcher. On the birth of other children he was either a Butcher or Master Butcher I suppose it was how the Registrar recorded the Profession.
When we went to Horlebach and spoke to elderly Mrs Ziegler she said her grandfather went to live in Sheffield when he first came to England around the same time as the Rothermel brothers but I did not ask whether they were butchers or not. Are they the same Zieglers as the ones in Wakefield?
The Rothermels owned the local shop in Horlebach and Mrs Zeigler let us have a photo which is on my website
http://www.birdchildsandgoldsmith.com/acatalog/Janice_and_the_Rothermels_of_H.html
Mrs Zeigler told us it was a grocer and that they had farm animals on the land behind the house including cows and pigs and slaughtered their own livestock. But I do not know if they sold meat in the shop or sold it on?
As for an old photo of the shop in 12 High street Wellingborough the only one I have shows the white shop attached to the Star Inn and it looks empty it is not the Chinese restaurant on Google Street view as this is next door. Best wishes
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Hi Rothermel
Adolphus Happold was living with his brother George at 57 Gold Street (1901 Census). Adolphus was the son of William Happold and his first wife, Lena Vogt and was born Barrow-in-Furness, Lancs in 1871.
William Meyer born 1856 was the son of Frederick August Carl Meyer born 1830 Künzelsau and Susanne Rosina Shoepple. William married Mary Ann Frank 1880 who in turn was the daughter of Frederick Frank born 1824 who died 1895 Northamptonshire.
Katharina Christina Mayer born 1837 Künzelsau married George Frederick Hohenrein 1859 Kingston-upon-Hull.
John Rothermel is listed on the historical directory (Wright's) for Nottingham 1894-95 under "pork butchers".
There were Gronbach, Schonhut, Wagner, Hoffmann, Färber, Denner, Strecker, Abel, Bauer, Bräuninger, etc. families living as pork butchers in Nottinghamshire, to name but a few.
I still have to check out N'hampshire.
The above shows you how these families, many of them having emigrated to Yorkshire and the Northern counties came to other parts of England.
Another source would be the numerous adverts for staff placed in the newspapers of that time and advertising of pork butchers' shops for sale.
I cannot think that the Rothermels weren't pork butchers as this was such a different trade from beef butchery and could not be carried out at the same premises but have found no proof.
Hope this helps somewhat.
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Hi SwissGill
Thanks! It's amazing as you say how many Pork Butchers there were around who came from Germany ! Whilst searching for the Zieglers in Sheffield to see whether they were also Pork Butchers from the same village as the Rothermels I came across the Hubner family in Sheffield Pork Butchers. They had a Rosina Zeigler working for them on the 1891 census in the shop. I also found Ludwig Zeigler in Hull and Frederick Ziegler in Wigan both Pork Butchers! I found so many staff in the shops who worked as assistants and servants all from Germany. It would be great to see some of their advertisements for staff!
As for the Rothermels in the 1890 Kelly's directory George Rothermel High Street Wellingborough was described as a Butcher and William Meyer of Silver Street a Pork Butcher. It appears the two Rothermel brothers split and brother John moved to Nottingham where he was listed as a pork butcher. as you say in the 1894 Wrights Directory. He died in 1920 in Nottingham
I am still looking !!
Best wishes
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Dear rothermelbird,
I refer to reply #331 in this thread. You mention elderly Mrs Ziegler, who you met in Hörlebach when you were researching the Rothermels. Sadly enough, Mrs Ziegler died one or two years ago at high age. Therefore it couldn't have been her grandfather who went to Sheffield as a pork butcher. In fact it was her uncle Georg Friedrich Ziegler who emigrated from Ruppertshofen in the end-nineties of the nineteenth century. He went there at the same time as the Österleins from the same village and the Hofmanns from Schwäbisch Hall did. They all became pork butchers in England. The mentioned Mrs. Ziegler is therefore closely related to todays Zieglers of Wakefield and her family are still in close contact to the English branch of the family.
The Rothermels ran the village shop in Hörlebach. But it was not groceries or meat, what they sold, instead it was everything what housewives needed in their kitchen like pans, spices, sugar, oil and vinegar and that kind of stuff and also tools that were needed by a farmer. Besides the Rothermels ran a small farm and kept animals for their own supply with pork, eggs, milk, butter etc. These foods were produced on every single farm in the village, they didn't have to be sold in a shop.
Referring to the photo of the Star Inn in Wellingborough: The next building to the right is No. 12 that was occupied by the Rothermel butchers. Today the building is split in two parts with an entrance each, the left part indeed looks empty whereas in the right part there is the Chinese restaurant.
Regards
Histres
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Dear Histres
Sorry to disagree with you yet again, but I have read my notes about our visit to Mrs Ziegler which was in 2006. She told us she was around 82 years that means she was born in 1924 therefore her father would have been born around 1890 - 1900 and her grandfather anytime after around 1860. She told us he was a very young man when he left for England in the 1870's She invited us into her house and there were photos of the family hanging all over the walls. I attach one that she gave us showing her grandafther standing on the left. What I can't understand is where was her father born? Did her grandfather return to Horlebach to marry and have children? I have no way of checking this, her extended family over the years moved to Harrogate and York. She was still in contact with her cousins in England and proudly showed us photos and cards.
She told us that in the mid 1900's the Rothermels left Hörlebach and moved to Ölhaus a very small hamlet near Ilshofen where they had three houses. Wilhelm Bühringer is now the owner of the grocery in the village and of the Rothermelhouse . Earlier on a family named Hofmann was the owner.
She heared that the family formerly called Rothermel in Ölhaus now has the name Hermann. I think there was in the end only a daughter called Rothermel and she probably married a Hermann
I don't know whether it is possible to check anything out?Thanks so much!
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Dear Histress and South Yorkie,
Late last night I found this site about German Pork Butchers in Britain and was astounded to see the name Charles Beyer because on the 1891 census sheet I got through Ancestry.com here in the USA, Charles, his wife Annie and their infant son, Charles F, were living with my own grandfather about whom I knew so little until a week ago.
My grandfather's name was Frank Valentine Weller. He was born March 27, 1872 in Nagelsburgh-Werttemberg and he emigrated to the UK in October of 1888 under the name Valentin Weller (#835767) from the district of Kuenzelsau, though he turned up on the 1891 census as Franky Weller.
It is SO interesting that, also in the same household (don't know the address, only that it was in Yorkshire) was a young woman named Caroline Geller, two years older than Franky/Valentin because the family story that was kept under wraps here until just a year before Franky's last child's death in 2009 was that he'd had a Love Child with someone he lived with in England. Probably Caroline Geller though I didn't know her name until I saw the census sheet.
Franky left the UK in April of 1894 and came to America to start a farm family (ended up with nine children here). His first children with Anna Marie Rupprecht (born in Bavaria on November 23, 1875) were twins, Carl and Annie Weller, born December 15, 1897. Until I saw this Pork Butchers site, it never occurred to me that Carl and Annie could have been named after Franky's friends -- the Beyers -- who were also from my grandfather's hometown. I read everything I could on the Pork Butchers' site and would welcome any information from those who are hipper than me because I know nothing more than what I have told you (I do know that Franky sent money to England -- probably to help the Love Child -- and that my grandmother raised cain with him about it but couldn't stop him.).
I would LOVE to write up anything I can learn about this grandfather (who died before I was born -- on January 11, 1937) to share with my kids. I have been searching for Caroline Geller and the Love Child but have so far been unsuccessful. I think the census said that she was from Germany, too. Please email me at the following address if you know anything at all about any people mentioned, or if you can tell me what he must have gone through. My grandmother didn't talk a lot about my grandfather.:
My email address is * My name is Bec Gilbert. THANKS!
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Hi BecGibert
Welcome to the thread. Never ever be surprised about change of names! My father was an illegitimate love child and had Rothermel, his mother's surname as a middle name, he never would tell us where this name originated from as in his day anything connected to Germany wasn't spoken about! He was known as Watson and my brother and I were brought up as Watson and after 10 years of research we still haven't found out who Mr Watson was (if he ever existed!) I am in the UK so if you want anything looked up from this end on databases just let me know as I am a full member of Ancestry.co.uk
Best wishes
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Hi BecGilbert
Today I have searched all the UK Birth indexes and not one child was born named either Weller of Geller between 1888 and 1895. Your grandfather was a Pork Butchers Assistant at 74 Carlisle Road Manningham Bradford Yorkshire and Caroline Geller was a servant in the shop. She appeared to have a brother called Carl born 1868 living in 15 Carlisle Terrace in Manningham, he was a Commercial Clerk. There was also a George Geller who may have been another brother working as a Pork Butchers assistant in Manchester for Lene Pheiffer. Caroline Geller married in December 1898 in Woolwich south London, it must have been her as she was the only one with that name in the country! I have traced Carl he emigrated to the USA in 1900 and married Theresa ( also German) and they appear on the US 1910 Census in New Jersy he was a cotton merchant.
I just had a thought - do you think Franky made his employer Annie pregnant? She was a young woman around 4 years older than him. Frederick Beyer was born to her in September 1894, your grandfather left for the US in April 1894, she would have been around 3 months pregnant at the time. Perhaps he had to make a quick exit and for the rest of his life had to pay for his sins so as to keep the scandal quiet? When he married perhaps he named his daughter after her to keep the memory going?
This is why it was such a tightly kept secret in your family?
Best wishes
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Hi rothermelbird,
I refer to your reply #335 in this thread.
Else Ziegler's grandfather was Johann Georg Ziegler who was born on 13th September 1852 and died on 9th March 1918. He was married twice. His first marriage was on 24th July 1877. I talked to a grandson of him. He thinks it cannot be ruled out that he was in England at a very early age like many others of the area were. If so, however, he must have come back after only a few years as he married in 1877. But there has never been such a rumour in the family.
Johann Georg Ziegler had 5 children in his two marriages, four boys and one girl. Their names were Georg Friedrich, Leonhard, Georg, Wilhelm and the youngest child Lena. (It seems to me that the photo you posted shows exactly these five siblings).
Leonhard was Else Ziegler’s father. Georg Friedrich was her uncle who became a very successful pork butcher and businessman in Wakefield, Georg was a school teacher and died very early, Wilhelm was in England for four years to assist his older brother and then returned to buy his own farm and Lena married in Hörlebach to a man called Kümmerer.
Else Ziegler had two older sisters, Mathilde and Anna. Mathilde married a Mr. Leidig in Hörlebach and as Else never married, she lived in the household of her oldest sister Mathilde Leidig whose house you were invited to. Anna married a Mr. Raißig of Herboldshausen.
The Rothermel house was taken over by a family Bühringer. The Bühringers had one daughter. She married Erich Hofmann. The Hofmann couple have two boys who are both unmarried. (You told it the other way round).
Now to the Rothermels: Heinrich Rothermel moved from Hörlebach to Ölhaus. His son Karl Rothermel inherited the farm. Karl Rothermel raised three daughters who are still alive. One of them inherited the farm at Ölhaus and married a Mr. Ehrmann. The Ehrmann family still live at Ölhaus. Another daughter is married and lives in nearby Eckartshausen. As I didn’t want to appear too curious I didn’t ask about the third daughter.
Best wishes
Histres
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Referring back to the Pork / Beef Butchers thread, while on most documentation the words Pork Butcher were often written, I did notice on my research, that Christian Frederick Wall had worked as a 'Butcher' at the Co-op in Lancaster and was also noted as a butcher (Journeyman) on other documents.
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Dear Histres
since my last post, I have found out some more information that may help. I think the Steinbachs either came from Kunselsau or Schwabish hall. There were 3 sisters came over. I know there was a Frederick Steinbach butcher in Liverpool who may or may not be related.
Matilda Steinbach
B 1852 Wurttemberg, Germany
Bertha b 1864
Rose Steinbach B. 1862, Wurttemberg, germany
mother Julia Born 1830 and probably husband was called Frederick.
I have also found a Sophia B 1854. Morsbach (Wurtemberg)
Servant to Hohenreins but i do not know if she is related to the other 3 who are definitely sisters.
Any help or suggestions would be gratefully received.
they settled in Hull and Otley. I am trying to trace exactly who was in the family group in Germany and any more information about them there.
thank you,
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Hi 0113vanny
On surfing for my roving ancestors, I came across Bertha Steinbach born 1864, married to Anthony Bowman (Baumann) born Germany abt 1862, and the family was living in Crook, St. Catherine, reg. district, Auckland, Co. Durham on the 1901 census.
Children, Bertha, Julia, Matilda and Frida.
Mother Julia Steinbach, aged 71, was living with them.
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thank you, I have only recently found out about Bertha. I have a photo of Rose and matilda as young women, taken in Ilkley, rose must have been living by then in Otley and Matilda was in Hull. My gran was named after Bertha. (Rose's sister). what I am trying to find out is the place where they lived or were born in in in wurtemberg.
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Hallo 0113vanny,
As you mentioned Künzelsau as a possible origin of the Steinbach family I phoned the Künzelsau town archivist. But unfortunately he is on holiday at the moment until 2nd May. I will talk to him about the Steinbachs in May again and see whether he can find evidence in either the town's archive or the church archive to which he also has access. Depending on what he finds out we can possibly follow the newly discovered traces or try the other track with Schwäbisch Hall.
The question, however, is how you got hints on either Künzelsau or Schwäbisch Hall as a possible home town of the Steinbachs. I think you must also consider villages around these rural towns. Both towns were district capitals in the 19th century and therefore an emigrant got his emigration papers in these rural centres. That means that they could have mistakenly been named as place of origin in English documents.
Kind regards
Histres
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thank you. I think he was away on holiday last time you rang!!!!
will have a look why I think . . ..
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somewhere recently, I read about how the folk from Wurtemberg travelled to England, something about a new easier route opening up in the mid 1800's. . can anyone tell me where I have read this?
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Wow,
I have to get out more..never thought there would be a "thread" for this subject (lol)
Anyway my grandfather Frederich August Louis Schoch was a butcher, as recorded in a 1901 census in Sunderland area. I know he was interred during the Great War (not sure why they call it that though) with his UK born wife Ethel Schoch (nee Gibson) and their 2 children. After the war he set up shop in the Hull area but I have nothing on that yet.
He came from Ohringen, Germany in 1896. I believe his father was also a butcher (Christian (Heinrich) Schoch) and I am trying to verify this fact and nail down any other relatives in that part of the country.
Any help would be gratefully received.
Richard
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Hi Everyone I just wanted to tell you what a great help Histress has been, he contacted my Rothermel descendants in Germany and now I am in contact with cousins I never knew existed. They have letters and correspondence from my great great grandfather dating back to 1871!
In 1888 he came to visit his two sons in Wellingborough and it appears they were friends with the Meyer family who had a large Pork Butchers shop in the town! Mr Frederick Meyer ( or Maier ) as it was spelt at the time, met my gggrandafther and took him sightseeing in London ! Later Meyer travelled to Germany and went to visit the Rothermels and took with him a salted ox tongue as a present from the shop. This points to the fact that although the Rothermels initially were pork butchers perhaps they changed to 'ordinary' butchers after a few years as there was too much competition from the Meyer's large shop? They all appeared to inter marry and bring over young staff from Wurttemberg to work in the shops. We now know from Histress that the Meyers were connected to the Frank
Schoppler, Sperer, Hohenrein , Haag and Schussler families in the north of England if any of you are connected to these. I attach a copy of the original letter where my gggrandfather mentions Herr Maier and the sightseeing trip in London.
We cannot thank Histress enough for his great help !
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Hi Richard
This German Pork Butcher research is really addictive and with the help of Histres who has a large database of names and dates we are all finding out a lot more about our families. I will take a look to see if I can find anything for you
Best of luck!
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Hi Rothermelbird,
Tracing my Schoch family tree was why I got into ancestry research in the 1st place a number of years ago. While the other branches gave fruit my own direct line stopped in Ohringen and I have had no luck in getting anything beyond the names of my GGrandfather Christian (Heinrich) Schoch, a Master Butcher, and his wife Karoline Osterle(in). Never occurred to me to try tracking him through his trade.
I have a birth certificate of my Grandfather Friederich August Louis Schoch from Ohringen b:29 August 1879, that lists his parents and religion (Evangelischer).
Anything you can show me will be more than I have found in 3 years or so.
Thanks
Richard
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Re Schoch
Hi RichardI don't know whether you are a member of Ancestry.co.uk but two or three people have family trees covering your branch of the Schochs. Ohringen is right in the middle of the area from which most of the young people emigrated from Wurttemberg. Frederich came over in 1896 when he was 16 his father was a Master Butcher. In 1901 he was working as a shop assistant for Carl WV Voghler?? Pork Butcher in Sunderland who had many other Germans working in the shop. In 1911 he was working for Mary Dorr widow of George Dorr Pork Butcher both born Germany.
He was interned between 1914 and 1919 like many other Germans in the UK, he described himself as a Horse Slaughterer.
On one family tree his grandfather is listed as Johann Schoch and his grandmother Margarete Rosine Reithel
Sorry if you already know all this, but it was all I could find, if you're not a member of Ancestry I could contact the owhers of the Private Trees on your behalf. Otherwise you could contact the Wurttemberg archives which I believe are all held in Stuttgart (that's where all my Rothermel family are listed)
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Hi Rothermelbird,
I think that was my tree you have found. The connection in Germany beyond my GGrandfather ( [Heinrich]Christian Schoch) is speculative at best (obtained from Family Search) with no "proof" by way of documentation, to back it up, and it is this that I am looking for. Hoping to find GG's butcher shop details in Ohringen or his marriage to Karoline Osterle(in) and what happened to the family after my G/father left the country. Yes I know.. a lot to ask for (can't blame me for dreaming can you). I think I mentioned that I have the copy of a handwritten note delivered by the Red Cross in WW2 from my G/father (Friedrich A L Schoch) to his sister Karoline (Lina) Schoch, who was still in the old counrty (in Baden), and her brief reply. The note is very "touching" and I felt they had a close bond but to my knowledge they never met again after he left for the UK.
Thanks for your help
Richard
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Hi Richard
So you probably know all there is to know at the moment!
It all takes time. I have been researching my Rothermels since 2006 and it's only recently that things are really coming together. If your family were anything like mine the German connection was never mentioned. We made a trip out there to the village where my ancestors lived, also to the church where they were baptised. By chance we met an old lady in the village who was very helpful. Little by little we pieced things together. I think you need to get in touch with the archives in Wurttemburg and perhaps search through the trade directories to find out about the Butchers shop. I will ask my German friends in Stuttgart if they have any ideas for you.
Best of luck!
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For all of you who are interested here is how to trace your ancestors in Wurttemberg through the Archives
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Hi Richard,
Nice to see you on here.
This excellent article will give you an idea of why and how the German pork butchers came to GB:
http://www.surrey.ac.uk/cronem/files/conf2009papers/Wuestner.pdf
It was written by Histres who has contributed so much to this thread.
Gill
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Hi Gill,
Thanks for your last post. Histres listed this as well. Found it very interesting that so many from one area would emigrate to the UK around the same time.
Thanks for the Naturalization info (found it now in the Archives)
Richard
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Hi Richard,
I realized that a Charles Oesterlein was a pork butcher in Osset, Yorkshire. He originated from Schwöllbronn, a village near Öhringen. It might be that this Oesterlein was related to Frederich August Louis Schoch, possibly his uncle and that your grandfather had someone there who he could go to. How old was your grandfather when he emigrated, have you got a birthdate?
I know a person who sometimes visits the Öhringen church archive. I asked him to look for the Österleins and Schochs when he will be there again. He promised to do so, but said that he will only be there again in June or July. But anyway, I think this can bring quicker and better information than you had got during the last few years.
Best wishes
Histres
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Hi Histres,
Thank you for you help in this;
My Grandfather was born in 1879 (29 August and I have a copy of the original certificate, my sister has the original) and he emigrated to the UK in 1896 making him 17. Not sure where he landed but in 1901 he was working for the Voghher (Voghler) family in Sunderland. Later in 1911 he was manager for the Dorr family in Newcastle. After the war he settled in Hull with his family (not sure he ever went back to his trade as his shop was seized when he was interred and he never got it back).
On the issue of Osterle/Oesterlein, is this just spelling varieties.? His birth cert. gives his mother as Karoline Osterle (with umlaut over the O)
Thank you for whatever information you can provide
Regards
Richard
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Dear Richard,
The butcher, your grandfather worked for in Sunderland was Charles William Frederick (Carl Wilhelm Friedrich) Vogtherr. He was born at Blaufelden in 1873. His son Ernest George Frederick Vogtherr was born in Sunderland, England, on 18 February 1898. The latter emigrated to New Zealand in mid 1913 and founded a firm that cured bacon. The firm still exists in Hastings, New Zealand. You may google it, either using the name Vogtherr or Holly Bacon Company as keywords.
Other members of the family settled in South Shields in pre-war years.
Regards
Histres
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Hello Histres,
Amazing information re the Vogtherr connection. I had read in a previous post ( I think Swissgill) that this family had gone to New Zealand but did not know some had remained in the UK.
Now if I can match my Schoch to the Oesterlein butcher from 1897 to 1901 then another piece of the puzzle will be complete.
Looking forward to your friend visiting Ohringen later this year. Other children may include Karoline, Rosa and maybe a Karl. I had discussed with my wife about a trip there myself but it is a little expensive from Canada.
Regards
Richard
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i've really enjoyed reading this story unravel! It's wonderful.
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Hi Everyone,
This is a document I found online showing names of those who left various villages and towns in Germany in the late 1800's. https://www2.landesarchiv-bw.de/ofs21/olf/struktur.php?bestand=17515&klassi=&anzeigeKlassi=030.006&letztesLimit=unbegrenzt&baumSuche=&standort=
Richard
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Hello Richard,
Thank you very much for posting this link. As I think that it is very useful, not only for you, but for all those who are searching their Württemberg or Hohenlohe ancestry I am giving a few hints, how to find the names of interest. The only pity is, that it is not said, which destinations the emigrants had, if it was the USA, England or other countries or states.
The lists show the names of those emigrants who applied for emigration and were released from their Wurttemberg citizenship. This means that there are some emigration documents of them kept in the archive. If you send them the signature and the name, they can send you copies of these documents. These you have to pay for and you need someone who can read the old German script and translate the texts.
The lists do obviously not contain the names of all emigrants as there were also many persons who left their home country illegally.
If you have only a name of your ancestor you go to point 30. Staatsangehörigkeit and follow the path to 30.6 Auswanderungen. Give in the name and they offer you all villages from which a person with such a name emigrated. If you know the name of your forefather's birthplace go to point 30.6. and chose the district capital, e.g. 30.6.10 Oberamt Künzelsau. Choose "alle" on the top right and scroll down to the village of your choice. There you will find the year of emigration.
Best wishes
Histres
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Hi Richard
I have had some messages via my website from someone who originally came from Nottingham but is now living in Spain, I just wondered if there are any links with your family? I can't trace any links with German Pork Butchers.
"Any light on Master Butcher Henry Rands Hodson from Wellingborough 1890 on?
Henry Rands Hodson had a butchers shop at 36 High Street,Irthlingborough in 1911
Since the family came from Earls Barton/Finedon/Irthlingborough/Wellingborough it is possible his outlets could have been in any of this places. He was well heeled. He was preparing to set up in Canada.
Their were 3 sons and a daughter from Rands and the daughter married an Allebone. Alieda VT came over as an au pair. The Hodsons actualy migrated from Upwell in Norfolk.
Interestingly, Jane's father was a pork butcher supplier and might well have come into contact with your family.
Also my family came from Germany and settled in Spittlegate. They came from Hessen and the name was Ditzel
Henry J R Hodson
Mother's Maiden Surname: Van Tiggelen
Date of Registration: Jan Feb Mar 1925
Registration district: Wellingbro'
Registration County: Cambridgeshire/Bedfordshire, Huntingtonshire, Northhamptonshire
I think that James T Hodson had shops in Winstanley Road, Wellingborough and. his son in Irthlingborough
I saw the name Scohnot which was a shop my father in law called in as a rep.His name was Herbert "Tiny" Hodson.
I have just been reading through your Rothermel history notes which convince me that the Hodson family would have known the Rothermell family both in Northampton and Nottingham. Unfortunately my parents are both dead and did not leave any diaries.
The name Scohnot? was probably Schonot? and was listed in your notes somewhere.
After working for his father Tiny Hodson worked for a man called Alfred Bach who was a pork product supplier. Could he have been German?"
So many questions I cannot seem to answer, the Schonot surname is so similar to yours!
Any ideas??
Best wishes
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Hello Rothermelbird,
Schonot .... Schoch Looks like I will have to check into the origins of the names to see if they are "linked". My Grandfather did have a shop in the Hull area (I think), which is north of the towns you have mentioned, so it may be possible. Proving this may take a while :(
Once I have the family firmly anchored in the Ohringen area then this will be the next "project" to search.
Thank you for the information, I'll post any progress I make in this :)
Richard
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Hello Histres,
Found this reference for WW1 Hull, UK Pork Butcher Shop
http://www.hullhistorycentre.org.uk/discover/pdf/20195%20First%20World%20War.pdf
Hohenrein Family (c.1873-1998): [L DBHR] Family of German Butchers in Hull: Including correspondence relating to GW Hohenrein‟s time in a prisoner of war camp in Germany and anti-german sentiment in England – The family changed its name to Ross and closed their prosperous butchers shops until after the war.
The link is in the Hull University and I do not have access to it.
Regards
Richard
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Hi Richard
I drew a blank on the surname these people gave me but found plenty of Schochs from Germany some having pork butchers shops in the east end of London/Essex, plus in the north of England. I also drew blanks on the Rands Hodson side. On reading your last post it is quite clear why our German connections were so sensitive from the first world war and through to the second, many were interned and lost their businesses.
Best wishes
Rothermelbird
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I think it would be more likely that the name Schonot is actually Schonhut?
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Thanks SwissGill
You're probably right I've found several Schonhuts on the databases one had an enormous shop in Rotherham employing quite a few staff and a couple of others in Yorkshire all Pork Butchers. I'll suggest this spelling to the people who contacted me. It will save Richard a lot of work for nothing! Histress probably has them on his database
Thanks again
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Dear Friends on Rootschat,
This morning I received notices in my regular email that both Rothermelbird and Schoch had left messages for me, but when I clicked on the link provided, there were no messages.
I did manage to find a Rothermelbird message from February that proposed a solution to my question of my grandfather's illegitimate lovechild in the UK. Rothermelbird said that the love child could have been with Franky Weller's employer's wife, Anna Beyer because Anna would have been 3 months pregnant when Franky left the country in April of 1894. The child, however, was listed in the 1891 census and my family story said that he had the child with his employer's "daughter" -- which, I am assuming, must have been Caroline Geller, treated "like a daughter" as my grandfather claimed he was "treated like a son" by the employers (Johann Karl Beyer who became Charles Beyer in Yorkshire).
I believe it may have been Histres or Rothermelbird who suggested to me that maybe the spelling of Caroline Geller's last name was altered in the census, that she may have been a Gohler (umlaut over the "o") and so I have been going nearly blind searrching the lists of Auswanderers from villages in Germany between 1886 and 1891 to see if there is a Caroline Gohler because the 1891 census said she was from Germany. The only name like that in the lists so far is a Friedrich Gohler from Kocherstetten who emigrated in 1890 -- but no sign of a sister who also left that town. Attacking the identity at the other end, Rothermelbird says that there was only one Caroline Geller in England and that she married there. If I had her married name, I could try the 1901 census to see if she had any children listed that might be the lovechild.
Grateful for any help,
Bec Gilbert
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Hello Rothermelbird,
You mentioned some Schoch's (butchers) in the north of England, do you have locations for them other than the one I know about in Sunderland 1901 and the one in Newcastle 1911 (both are my Grandfather). I am very interested in any shop he may have owned/run between 1911 and 1914.
Thanks
Richard
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BecGilbert,
Not aware of any post from me to you. I have been in contact with Swissgill, Rothermelbird and Histres for the most part.
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Sorry, Schoch,
Don't know why the email I got told me you had something to say on a topic I was interested in unless it meant that every time anyone writes something about German Pork Butchers I am going to get an email. I don't want to be a bother to anyone, just really want to learn more.
Rothermelbird said something interesting in a message he sent to me in February that I just caught up with today. He suggested the rumored lovechild my grandfather sired in the UK could have been with Anna Beyer, one of his employers because she was three months pregnant when my grandfather left the UK. Annie Beyer had a son named Frederick who was 7 years old in the 1901 census (born 1894, six months after my grandfather left the UK). I thought that Rothermelbird couldn't be right because I only knew this morning about the Beyers' first child, Charles, who was 11 in the 1901 census. (That would have been a long gestation -- from 1890 to 1894 when my grandfather left the country!) This afternoon I looked up the Beyers in the 1901 census and discovered their second son. It's kind of funny to me that the Beyer baby who might have been Frank Weller's love child is named Frederick because I found a Frederick Weller who was born in 1891 at the Stone House Hospital (some kind of asylum that was taking in other-than-crazies at the time. My grandfather had been in the UK since 1888 -- 3 years before this Frederick Weller was born.
And this Frederick Weller showed up in the 1901 census with must-have-been-adoptive-parents John and Laura Purkiss whose address was one of the cottages (2 Syles Cottage, Invicta Rd, Dartford, Kent) on the property of Stone House Hospital. John Purkiss is listed as a General Laborer (worker) on the 1901 census so he must have worked for the hospital.
I thought that maybe Caroline gave birth but couldn't keep the baby boy in Yorkshire where she worked because of the shame of illegitimacy and that it would explain how my grandfather knew he had a son. -- named Frederick like Anna and Charles Beyer's son born 1894 -- but 3 years older than the Beyer baby. Finding Caroline Geller -- who Rothermelbird told me got married but he didn't say her married name --is going to be major because Caroline wasn't working for the Beyers anymore by the 1901 census. (Fred Specht and Rose Hanoblanch were the employees then). If anybody can help me to make sense of this illegitimacy muddle, I would appreciate it.
My best to all Rootschat folk,
Bec Gilbert
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Hi BecGilbert,
As you are a contributor to the "thread" whenever anyone adds a comment you will get notified of their post. ::) That way any information being discussed, whether or not it is connected to your interest, appears on the thread. Sounds complicated but believe me sometimes it is what others are saying that can give you clues as to where you should direct your inquiries. :)
Good Luck
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As there are many new contributors to this topic, I would like to remind everyone,
that I have collected some links to other RootsChat topics here:
RootsChat Topics: German Pork Butchers
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,509347.0.html
And - a long shot ....
I'm also in a german family history forum, so I've added a topic there, in the Baden-Württemburg board,
listing some of the names and places mentioned here, with a link to this topic.
Like I said, a long shot, but maybe something will come of it :)
Bob
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Hi Folks,
Has anyone heard of a family of butchers in the Oldbury (Birmingham), area around 1939, called Chas Spalding & Sons (butchers). My Grandfather (Friedrich Schoch) is listed as working for them in an Internment Hearing document.
Richard
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Hi Richard,
According to this link he was a horse slaughterer:
http://www.cradleylinks.com/kellys_1932.html
Maybe he had a butcher's shop as well? I'll look through the Birmingham directory.
Gill
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As there are many new contributors to this topic, I would like to remind everyone,
that I have collected some links to other RootsChat topics here:
RootsChat Topics: German Pork Butchers
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,509347.0.html
And - a long shot ....
I'm also in a german family history forum, so I've added a topic there, in the Baden-Württemburg board,
listing some of the names and places mentioned here, with a link to this topic.
Like I said, a long shot, but maybe something will come of it :)
Bob
Thanks a lot Bob,
Gill
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Here's a bit more info:
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/GB145_WRI_1_5_2_170/
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Hi Gill,
As usual you seem to find whatever I ask for. Thank you very much !! I have been informed that it was not unusual for a German Pork Butcher to list his profession as "horse slaughterer". On an earlier post I mentioned that I did not know if my Grandfather ever went back into the trade after WW1, well it looks like he did although he seems not to have owned his own shop.
Thanks Again
Richard
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I was thinking about our ancestors - pork butchers - and wondered how many of you know of how they lived their lives in England.
I really thought that they ran pork butcher's shops, sold pork, pork pies, etc. and that was it.
Far from it. I am subscribed to The British Newspaper Archives Online and have read various stories about them, especially in the North of England.
The news snippets have informed me of their hams being stolen - of their scales being unjust - of intentions to marry which were never fulfilled - of their helping to ensure that the German poor in their areas were certain of a Merry Christmas - of their being pigeon and bird fanciers - of owning show dogs (to the point that they became famous) of violence (not much) against other citizens.
I think that their dwellings were not just houses but had back yards and fields belonging to them where they kept animals (other than pigs).
If anyone has any information in this light, it would be very welcome. Genealogy is not just about collecting data but finding out about how our ancestors lived.
BerlinBob
would this need another thread or an under thread?
In anticipation of some interesting posts
Gill
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Gill
On the theme of your last post, my Grandfather used to grow his own tabacco and hang the crop in a shed to cure. He then "pressed" it into solid blocks of very black looking material (more like tar to look at). He would then scrape off what he needed for his pipe...what a smell it was ::). I think that he also "sold" it in the neighbourhood ( I think it was tobacco ;D)
Richard
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Hello all,
I was away on holiday. Being back again I found several new posts in the thread. Here are just some short answers to various aspects:
Rothermelbird: SwissGill is right. the family you were talking about is called Schonhut or also Shonhut. Originally they were Schönhut in Germany. I have listed 14 emigrants who were descendants of three related Schönhut families in Oberhof, Gaisbach and Künzelsau.
The Schochs and Schönhuts are not linked, although their home villages are only about 8 miles apart from each other.
Schoch: Dear Richard, I know the story of the Hohenreins in Hull. There is quite an amount of material on the Hohenreins in Hull's town archive: the Hohenrein Collection, Local Studies Library, central Library, Hull. The family's history was published by John Markham - A family at war in "Keep the Home Fires Burning", Highgate Publications (Beverley) Ltd, 1988, pp. 31 - 52.
You also find some interesting information on a Hohenrein via this link: http://ruhleben.tripod.com/id7.html and as well in this thread by Richard Funk in Reply #241 on: Sunday 03 April 11.
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Hi Histres,
Been away as well in the nations capitol.
My interest in the Hull area is because my Grandfather was there during WW2 and may have owned or worked in a butchers shop. Thanks to you and Swissgill I am slowly piecing together his life from 1912 to 1945.
Still trying to sort out the Hull connection though ::)
Richard
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I'm new to new to RootsChat and to this particular dicussion. Am not sure about the right way to make a post, so just chose "reply" although this is not a reply to anything, but rather a quest for information. Please forgive my ignorance in this situation.
I have found the dicussion of Pork Butchers very interesting and wonder if anyone knows of my great Uncle Friedrich Karl Horn, who was first a butcher in Bermondsey and then moved to Sheffield. He came from Ingelfinen in Wuerttemberg and married Christiane (Nina) Kress , also from Ingelfingen at Whitechapel in 1894. They later moved to Stepney. I don't know exactly when the Horn's or Kress's came to London, but would like to get that information amongst any other available. Thanks Appreciated. Thanks.
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Hello Libbie
There is a marriage for Friedrich Karl Horn and Marie Christiane Kress, Whitechapel, in 1903, but none for 1894. In 1911, they and their children are living in Ratcliffe, London.
There is also a Kress Familien Stammbaum containing Friedrich Karl Horn's name on Ancestry but it is private and I cannot access it.
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Thanks so much for the input. You're right about the marriage date. I accidently put the date for marriage of Christiane's sister, Louise! I appreciate the tip about Kress information on Ancestry. Maybe if I can show relationship, they'll let me access it.
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Hi, was just wondering who you were as the people you are refferring to in your post are possibly my Horns - My Great Grandparents :)
Regards Julie (New Zealand)
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Hi Julie,
It's me! We've exchanged quite a bit of family information. I recently sent you a picture of some London Butchers, one of whom we thought might be your great grandfather. Still hoping to hear what your parent's think and if they can identify anyone else in the picture. If your Uncle did have a copy, you might want to post it here? You have my private e mail. Talk to ya later!
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Hi, All,
Libbie's post to Julie (that she had "some photos of pork butchers")is heartening to me. I know that my grandfather worked for a pork butcher named Charles Beyer (probably Johann Karl Beyer when he was in Kunzelsau) during the years 1888 to 1894.
Since my grandfather died here in the USA in 1937 and since cousins who inherited everything (who says primogeniture is dead?) got the only photo I ever saw of my grandfather (and since there is no way I can get in touch with the inheriting cousin -- his last known address is a dead end), I don't have even one photo of my grandfather at any age.
It's a shot in the dark, but maybe someone on this site has a photo of Charlie Beyer and his assistant (my grandfather, for one) between 1888 and 1894. I've tried the Mormons and Ancestry.com but I haven't tried this.
Hoping against hope,
Bec Gilbert
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Been at sea for a while so have not seen many posts, but can see it's still busy. I'll just give it a 'bump' in case there are people new to Rootschat, that may have missed and/or, have an intrest.
Hello to Histres, SwissGill et all :D
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There is ... an offshoot ? a topic with related interests ? ... here, also with some german pork butchers
Topic: German Ancestors in the North of England
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,607068.0.html
I've added a link there to this topic :)
regards,
Bob
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Thanks for the heads up Bob, like I previously mentioned, been away for a while and been unable to follow the thread.
Interesting to note that some of the posters are in the AGFHS, I emailed them on many occasion for membership and never received a reply :P
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Hi All
just come across this topic.....it is excellent and a quick search has prompted me to add the WAHLERS name to the subject....my gggf Hermann Wahlers (born 1838 in Gross Sottrum, died 1915) married Anna Sophia Koch (born in Germany c 1836) in 1862 at St Nicholas Church in Liverpool. They had 8 children.
Hermann Wahlers was a german pork butcher at 273 Athol Street for many years but had retired by 1898. He supported the german church in Liverpool and, in his wisdom, was a subscriber to Everton Football Club.
I have never come across an old photograph of Athol Street....but it was a long street in the docklands area with over 300 houses and over 30 public houses!
There is a connection with the WAHLERS family name and sugarbakers, the White Star Line, lace export, Australia and New Zealand.
Regards
Alan Wahlers
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Hi All "German Pork Butcher" Fans,
I've added an occupations field to the SIT,
so if you all enter your Surnames there,
it will be easier to keep track of them all ;D
Topic: New possibilities in the SIT: Occupations
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,612580.0.html
regards,
Bob
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Hi All "German Pork Butcher" Fans,
I've added an occupations field to the SIT,
so if you all enter your Surnames there,
it will be easier to keep track of them all ;D
Topic: New possibilities in the SIT: Occupations
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,612580.0.html
regards,
Bob
Good idea Bob, have entered surname into the SIT as you suggested.
Next month, this thread will have been running for 3 years, and with over 40,000 views and nearly 400 replies, hopefully it will continue to assist others find their British and Irish butcher descendants who have German ancestry
Johnbhoy :)
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Hi All
just come across this topic.....it is excellent and a quick search has prompted me to add the WAHLERS name to the subject....my gggf Hermann Wahlers (born 1838 in Gross Sottrum, died 1915) married Anna Sophia Koch (born in Germany c 1836) in 1862 at St Nicholas Church in Liverpool. They had 8 children.
Hermann Wahlers was a german pork butcher at 273 Athol Street for many years but had retired by 1898. He supported the german church in Liverpool and, in his wisdom, was a subscriber to Everton Football Club.
I have never come across an old photograph of Athol Street....but it was a long street in the docklands area with over 300 houses and over 30 public houses!
There is a connection with the WAHLERS family name and sugarbakers, the White Star Line, lace export, Australia and New Zealand.
Regards
Alan Wahlers
Great post mate ;D
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Hi All,
following on from my last reply here, how about a database of german pork butchers ??
Topic: Possible database: German Pork Butchers
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,613454.0.html
please add your feedback there :)
thanks,
Bob
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Updated:
Topic: Possible database: German Pork Butchers
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,613454.msg4634669.html#msg4634669
regards,
Bob
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Updated:
Topic: Possible database: German Pork Butchers
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,613454.msg4653646.html#msg4653646
regards,
Bob
A "read-only" trial version of a database is now available ;D
regards,
Bob
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Hi
Most of my german pork butcher ancestors came from Niedernhall or Backnang to London and Liverpool. Does anyone have any ancestors from these places?
Limehouse79
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Hi Limehouse,
Welcome to RootsChat :)
and Welcome, too, to the Pork Butchers Topic :)
It's early days yet, but because I used the data from this topic to start a trial-run with the German Pork Butchers database, I can already use it to tell you that there are several researchers with ancestors from Niedernhall ...
See
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/GPB-quick-search.php?org_place=Niedernhall
Tip: To read this topic through, click on "Print" at the top or bottom of this topic.
(it won't print it, it just shows all replies in one printable page !!)
You can then use Control-F to search for "niedernhall". Once you've checked out the others, you might like to add a few of your names here.
regards,
Bob
ps, no one from Backnang yet, but by coincidence, I shall be travelling to Waiblingen in a couple of weeks, which is just a few miles away ;D
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Hello Berlin-Bob,
I realize you are on a really good way with your surname-based collection of data. However I think that you should also show the people's forenames right behind their family names. This makes clear whether the person is of male or female gender. This is important as many emigrants from the Hohenlohe area were young women who became employed by the German pork butchers in their households and their shops or even became their wives. This way users of the database can sort out at an early stage who they shall have to have a closer look at the more specifying data sheet in a second step.
Best wishes
Histres
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Hi Histres,
Thanks. It only looks like it is "surname based" because I used the data from previous topics where I had only collected the surnames. If you click on 'C' you will see three CUTTS(*), with forenames. (These are not real people, I just "invented" them to test some different aspects of the database. ;D )
When we "go live" I can either initialise the database, so that everyone starts off fresh, or I can leave the existing records there, and members can add the missing data.
Regards,
Bob
(*)
Updated: they changed their names to Schweinemetzger can now be found under 'S' ;D
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Hi Berlin-Bob :)
Thanks for all the helpful hints - I definitely need them! What a great site.
I've added some surnames to the list and if any of these names ring bells with anyone I'd love to hear from them.
My gt grandfather Christian Friedrich Burkert (1857-1925) married Christine Fredericka Weiss (1855-1888) in Niedernhall. Christine's parents were Georg Christoph Weiss and Christine Barbara Seez. I'd be grateful for any further information on the Weiss or Seez families.
Two of my great grandfather's sons came to England, Christian Friedrich Burkert (Fred) and Johann Heinrich Burkert (Harry). Fred married Pauline Schneider from Steinbach and they had a pork butcher's shop at Garratt Lane, Summerstown, Wandsworth. Harry married Magdalene Kern from Vogelsberg and they had shops at Athol Street and Brownlow Hill in Liverpool. I've tried in the past to find photos of the streets in the early 1900's but have been unsuccessful so far. Does anyone know if there are any?
Some other family members who went to Liverpool were Johann Ernst Specht and his brother Christian Friedrich Specht. Johann married Katherine Kern and they lived at 41 Athol Street and Christian married Maria Shwab. They moved about a bit. Addresses for them are Great Horner Street, Cockspur Street, Southdown Road and in 1901 at 83 Athol Street.
On the other side of my paternal german ancestry is great great grandmother Johanna Christine Diez (1808-) with parents Johann Christian Diez and Fredericke Dorothea Wolfarth, all from Niedernhall. I'm trying to find out more on my Diez family.
I'd better stop now! Have a great time in Waiblingen Berlin-Bob. My Backnang relatives lived all around the area from Neufürstenhütte to Wüstenrot to Ludwigsburg (where my great great grandfather Ellinger found himself in the local prison for falsifying accounts) so if you see any mentions of Ellingers or Rathmanns...........!
Thanks again - am I 'posting' correctly???
Limehouse79
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Hi limehouse79
interesting to hear of your Liverpool and, more so, your Athol Street connection....my gggf was a german pork butcher at 273 Athol Street around the 1880's.....he was born in Gross Sottrum (nw germany) but married a fellow german in 1862 in Liverpool....also other addresses around Athol Street.
I have found no photos yet of this street, other than the Police Station near the top, but wonder what it was like......300+ houses and 30+ pubs. I did think it would be interesting to try to figure out the puzzle by joining numbers and names from the old ordnance survey map and the census returns.
I will check out my info to see if I can find any links with your names.
Regards
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I have had a breakthrough!!!
I have been struggling to find what happened to my Schmidts after they were last spotted on the 1911 census. Today, I think I have managed to find them, with the surname Cole (their grandmother's maiden name). This surprised me slightly, because although I suspected that with rising antagonism to Germany they may have changed their names, I thought that they might Anglicise their surname (to Smith, perhaps). I didn't think they would decide upon their Grandmother's maiden name because it seems too remote - I could understand using mother's maiden name.
How many other people find that they have name changes, and how do they change their names (e.g. anglicise, random etc)
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How many other people find that they have name changes, and how do they change their names (e.g. anglicise, random etc)
Just a reminder:
the shop in Burnley is a prime example of the anti-German sentiments of that period..
Just as a general reminder that you may need to widen your search -
many germans changed their names due to anti-german sentiments before WW1:
In a similar vein:
I posted some tips on anglicization of emigrant names at
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,11860.0.html
"Sharing Useful Tips: Germany & E.Europe"
includes my favourite name-change of all time:
".. Abraham ben Isaiah, otherwise known as Moses Abraham Groomsfelt, or Jones, a silversmith .."
I also read an account recently, in a family history book, of two brothers Frank Charles DEGENHARDT and Walter DEGENHARDT, who, at the turn of the century, decided their names (their father was a german immigrant) were TOO german:
Walter DEGENHARDT became Walter HART, and
Frank Charles DEGENHARDT became Frank CHARLES !!
Bob
Regardless of the "why ?" and "to what ?" questions, I'm wondering if we ought to add a field for anglicised names to the database, as this is going to crop up quite often.
Opinions here please:
Topic: DBSIG - Database for Special Interest Groups: German Pork Butchers
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,613454.0.html
thanks,
Bob
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I know of Wittmann changing to Whiteman, Baumann changing to Bowman.
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Have put my opinions forward on the database thread.
Apologies for not remembering that the topic had already been covered previously :-[
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I have had a breakthrough!!!
I have been struggling to find what happened to my Schmidts after they were last spotted on the 1911 census. Today, I think I have managed to find them, with the surname Cole (their grandmother's maiden name). This surprised me slightly, because although I suspected that with rising antagonism to Germany they may have changed their names, I thought that they might Anglicise their surname (to Smith, perhaps). I didn't think they would decide upon their Grandmother's maiden name because it seems too remote - I could understand using mother's maiden name.
How many other people find that they have name changes, and how do they change their names (e.g. anglicise, random etc)
Always great news when someone gets a breakthrough, congrats :D
My wifes family just changed the spelling of their name, as it was pronounced the same in English as it was in German, from Wahl to Wall.
The forenames Christian, Freidrich, Ernst, Willimena have been passed down through the generations to this day, though these have been anglasized to Chris, Fred, Ernie and Mena.
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The Database for Special Interest Groups (DBSIG): German Pork Butchers is now officially open. :)
There are about 60 records in the database which I gleaned from various pork-butcher topics: most of them only have a surname at present. If you have contributed on this (or any other pork-butcher) topic, please check if your entries are in the database and edit in any missing details ... and add more family members :)
To get to the database,
- Click on the (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/Themes/history/images/english/library.gif)-Button at the top of any page.
You are now in the RootsChat Reference Library
- Click on the (http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/img/DBSIG-button.jpg)-button
Please add your feedback and queries on
Topic: DBSIG - Database for Special Interest Groups: German Pork Butchers
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,613454.30.html
Enjoy,
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but you (I) can't edit names that someone else put in can you (I) ?
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No, you can only edit your own submissions
regards,
Bob
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I am trying to contact the descendants of Albert Topham Meens, I know he had a daughter Ann Meens born 1938' I think he was one of the four brothers of your ancestor. photograph attached.
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I am searching for descendants of Alfred Topham Meens (picture attached), and know he had a daughter Ann Meens born 1938. I believe that is father Paul was a brother of your ancestor.
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Hi wnoetulip,
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Who are you referring to, specifically ?
Is it the Meenz family from MeenzHunters ...
Hi,
I am researching my own family tree and have stumbled across German Pork Butchers...
'Mine' are from Wakefield and the names are Meenz and Schwab
(on the NA website they have naturalisation papers - does anyone know what info they can provide?)
the online index says that the families originally came from Wuertemberg.
... or is it another family ?
regards,
Bob
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Yes its the meenzhunters message. When I replied to it the first time it didn't associate it with that message. So I tried again with the same result. I don't know what I am doing wrong.
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Nothing wrong :)
The replies are always sorted chronologically, rather than associating them with particular messages.
So in future, if you say "Hello Meenzhunter" or similar, we will know who you mean.
(but those are just minor details, there's always someone around who will help out till you get the hang of things.)
MeenzHunters should now get an e-mail notifcation that there are new messages on this topic, so he will probably be along some time to check them out. In the meantime, just to be sure, if you reply once more on this topic you can then use the PM system to send him a message.
http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
And just to be really sure, I'll send him a PM right now, to let him know you are seeking contact :)
regards,
Bob
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Just been on the DBSIG, absolutely outstanding, you guys have put a lot of work into getting that database up and running, fantastic :D
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Thanks for telling us that, johnbhoy, although I have yet to venture forth and see if I need to enter all my relatives on there. And, of course, to check the details that have already been put there.
I read the messages and the PM from Berlin-Bob about records from Histres being used to get the database up and running, and as Histres has all mine I have assumed that my details and connections are all there anyway.
I'll take another look when the database has been running for a while.
Cheers for now
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I read the messages and the PM from Berlin-Bob about records from Histres being used to get the database up and running, and as Histres has all mine I have assumed that my details and connections are all there anyway.
Anything that Histres or RichardFunk had in their notes is there, but you all either need to enter the records under your own names, or, at least mark your interests in these records, otherwise nobody will see the connections.
Histres and RichardFunk both include lots of names in their lists, where the RootsChatter connections are "hidden" in the "Comments" or "Sources" fields, so this information is not visible in the table view.
regards,
Bob
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Hello Meenzhunter
I was wondering if you could help, I have managed to find very few details on my Meenz ancestors, Charles (born around 1852) and Georg / George (born around 1850), I know they were both from Hohebach, and both were originally called Munz. I also know the family business in my family because of them, until recently, has been butchery. But this is all, could you help at all ?
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Hallo Kmunz,
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Meenzhunters doesn't come online very often so you may have to wait for a reply.
While waiting you can look at the "Meenzhunter" submissions in the Pork Butcher database:
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/gpb-quick-search.php?researcher_id=167442
regards,
Bob
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Hello Kmunz,
Welcome to the thread.
In a Hohebach emigration list there are two "Münz" emigrants listed: in 1896 a Ludwig (Louis) Münz went to Bradford and in 1900 he was followed by a Johann (John) Münz (no destination mentioned). Münz (with an Umlaut) is the original spelling of the English Munz or (even more anglisised) Meenz families. It seems to me that Charles and George, who you mention, didn't emigrate officially. It might be, as often was the case, that they went to England at a very early age (15 or 16) as visitors of a family member who had already established a butcher's shop there. This way they could get familiar with the trade, accomplish their skills and knowledge and also sort out their chances for getting self-employed one day. These visitors often didn't return and so were not registered in official German emigration lists.
The Munz butchers mostly had their shops in or around Bradford and I know of a family member who is still living in a neighbouring village called Queensburg. He says that his Hohebach forefather was also called George and had a shop at 519 Great Horton Road, Bradford (if you're interested I can give you his name and address via personal message).
Best wishes
Histres
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Hi hope I'm not too late on this thread, my grandad did a load of research, our family name was johan Frederick reusing for around 7 generations, until the war when our butchers was changed to John Frederick Roberts, but not my grandfathers. We are from kennels in Gutenberg and are also pork butchers, grandad has traced us back to Transylvania before the Napoleonic wars. Must explain my love of beer and sausage, gutten tag and vie gates to any relatives out there. Excuse my poor German, it was high German when the family left, lol
Schnell suden fleidermouse auto, lol picked that up off sat1 in osnabruck in the 90's BAOR
Forgot to mention, family sailed in to Liverpool, worked butchers then set up own shop in maltby, close to Rotherham(http://[url=http://[img]http://)[/img]](http://[img]http://)[/img][/url][/img], south Yorkshire, I have pictures but can't post on iPad.
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Welcome to the thread Big Vern, never to late to join it mate, enter what you know so far on the DBSIG and you may get lucky
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Hi hope I'm not too late on this thread, my grandad did a load of research, our family name was johan Frederick reusing for around 7 generations, until the war when our butchers was changed to John Frederick Roberts, but not my grandfathers. We are from kennels in Gutenberg and are also pork butchers, grandad has traced us back to Transylvania before the Napoleonic wars. Must explain my love of beer and sausage, gutten tag and vie gates to any relatives out there. Excuse my poor German, it was high German when the family left, lol
Schnell suden fleidermouse auto, lol picked that up off sat1 in osnabruck in the 90's BAOR
Forgot to mention, family sailed in to Liverpool, worked butchers then set up own shop in maltby, close to Rotherham(http://[url=http://[img]http://)[/img]](http://[img]http://)[/img][/url][/img], south Yorkshire, I have pictures but can't post on iPad.
Hi Big Vern
Welcome to the Pork Butchers' family.
Could it be that your ancestors' surname was "Friedrich" "Frederick" is an anglicised version thereof. A Johann Friedrich emigrated from Künzelsau.
"Kennels" is not to be found in Germany and I would suspect that it is "Kuenzelsau", a town in Germany, Baden-Württemberg, that is nearly always wrongly spelled on English census forms.
I'm going to do a little research on the Friedrichs and will be back in a day or two.
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I saw the post you made on the Isle of Man forum the other day but forgot about it.
I later learned from my grandfather that our family history is German, the family emigrating here from kunzelsau wurtenberg in 1904
I now see that your ancestors' name was Reisig, probably Johann Friedrich Reisig.
What about entering your ancestors on the German Pork Butchers database?
There's a help page - click on LIBRARY and then on Database for Special Interests.
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Hi,
I'm new to all this having only stated my research at Christmas. What an informative discussion and excellent data base. I can add a few bits having research my wife's family tree. Her great grandmother was Sophia Wagelein, daughter of a large family from the Wurttemburg area.
She was a servant for her sister Barbara, in 1901who had married Herbert Leech - Pork butcher. With her at the same butchers was a relative (?) Caroline Bealamire. There is also another sister Louisa working for the Taylor's together with her sister Minna (Wilhelmina). And I think one more Karoline, (Caroline) who I think married a Karle (or Carley) working in Rotherham. All have a pork butcher link.
Sophia had an illegitimate son Karl or Carl born in Germany 1888, the father of whom is unknown. But the family suggestion is that it was the local Baron or his son that Sophia worked for before coming to Sheffield. It seems she left Karl behind possibly with Grand parents. It is suggested that Karl came in 1904 aged 16. He married Lydia Dunn in May 1911, they then set up a pork butchers in Darnall called Dunn's using Lydia's maiden name, possibly funded by her father who had a bottling plant. I can't find any record of Carl in the 1911 census, so I am wondering who he worked for, or was apprenticed, to after he arrived. There are a range of possibilities as my wife remembers visits to and by the Zahire's and Frederichs, other Sheffield pork butcher. Can you add anything, and particularly who his father may have been. Karl was supposed to have come from Kupfetsell, though Sophia's local baron may have been in Rechbach or Drozbach.
Can't wait to read the book German Pork Butchers in Britain by Sue Gibbons! Never realised the German link would un earth so much facinating history about a Sheffield phenomenon!
Martin
Western Australia
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Welcome to the thread madburg :)
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Bethgem, I just noticed that you have a photo of your Grandfathers shop in your avatar, very Kool 8)
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Thanks johnbhoy, it is a special photo, I'll say that!
Have you by any chance copied it to full size to see the details in it?
I have all the info on that side of my family. My Grandfather was the pork butcher and his family worked for him, but none of them carried on with the trade. Henceforth, I do not have any more reason to post here, but I keep it live for notifications and to read about other posters. You never know, something just might crop up to link my Grandfather to someone else on here.
Best wishes
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Thanks johnbhoy, it is a special photo, I'll say that!
Have you by any chance copied it to full size to see the details in it?
I have all the info on that side of my family. My Grandfather was the pork butcher and his family worked for him, but none of them carried on with the trade. Henceforth, I do not have any more reason to post here, but I keep it live for notifications and to read about other posters. You never know, something just might crop up to link my Grandfather to someone else on here.
Best wishes
Hi Bethgem
I had a look at it the other day, but couldn't blow it up to much due to the pixals, but it looked real good from what I could see. :)
Maybe Histres would like to see it for his collection.
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Hi johnbhoy,
I think Histres has already got it, but not exactly sure.
It was the second shop George Green had in that photo, at number 14 High Street, Congleton. They had moved from number 18 High Street. He took in live pigs for him to slaughter on the premises. Health 'n' Safety would not allow such things today! ;)
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Hi Bethgem and johnbhoy,
Yes, I have got a copy of the photo. It is a scan of real high resolution.
Bethgem, if you allow, I can send it to johnbhoy.
Best wishes
Histres
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Hi Histres,
Yes, that is fine with me for you to send johnbhoy a copy of that photo. I am glad that you have a copy of it.
Best wishes
Bethgem
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Hi Histres,
Yes, that is fine with me for you to send johnbhoy a copy of that photo. I am glad that you have a copy of it.
Best wishes
Bethgem
Appreciate it guys :D
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Hello all,wondering if anyone can help me as i completely new to all this.
I am trying to trace my family back and get stuck at 1861 as they origanted from Inglefingen in Germany. I can not seem to find any inforamtion on them,the whole family emmigrated, they even brought there servants. There profession was Pork Buchery and they carried that profession on when they settled in Warrington UK and Wigan.
The surname was changed from Mynkeyme to Marsden before World War I and this is all i know.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Regards K.J.Marsden
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Hi K.J.,
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Loks like RicharFunk, one of the researchers here, has come across your famly before.
Check out the German Pork Butchers database here:
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/gpb-quick-search.php?letter=M , there are 3 MYNEKYME there, Albert, Johan and Louis.
(click on the 'View' icon to the left of the names for more details)
regards,
Bob
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Hi Histres,
Yes, that is fine with me for you to send johnbhoy a copy of that photo. I am glad that you have a copy of it.
Best wishes
Bethgem
Bethgem
Very patriotic photo, myself and Histres discussed it was obviously to stave away any anomosity during WW1.
Did you blow up the photo, is that a pair of shoes in the window? ???
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Hi K.J.,
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Loks like RicharFunk, one of the researchers here, has come across your famly before.
Check out the German Pork Butchers database here:
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/gpb-quick-search.php?letter=M , there are 3 MYNEKYME there, Albert, Johan and Louis.
(click on the 'View' icon to the left of the names for more details)
regards,
Bob
Looks like your database was a good idea BB, you and Histres are to be comended sir :D
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The surname was changed from Mynkeyme to Marsden before World War I and this is all i know.
Hi KJ,
Louis Mynekhyme is mentioned in Sue Gibbons' book "German Pork Butchers in Britain" on pages 45 and 46. Quotation: On 29th October 1914 he "was fined forty pounds, and costs, or three months' imprisonment, for travelling outside the five miles radius without a permit. Defendant, who had lived in Wigan for forty years without becoming naturalised, was seventeen years ago a member of a local Yeomanry Corps" (Source: The Meat Trades' Journal). On 5th November 1914 Louis Mynekyme is reported that "he has not paid the fine, and is now serving the three months' imprisonment in default (Source: Wigan Observer)
I think, this information can be useful for you, exploring Louis' life and what kind of person he was. You might even get more information when using the mentioned sources and also when addressing Wigan's town archive.
Back in Germany, the family's name would most probably have been "Meinikheim" - different spelling but same pronunciation. The family is surely to be found in the Ingelfingen church archive and can be traced further into the past. However you must find someone who can read the old German script and who does the work for you.
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hi there just started and want to find someone who has knowledge of Wittmann in hull and pontefract. My ancestor was a johannes Wittman married to Mary cerb in Attendorn and i know he had a brother George who was married to a Matilda. Both pork butchers, both wives came from Germany. Struggling to find out when and what ship they came on ....... The name was changed to john Whitman and were in Pontefract with seven children by 1881 census
Can anyone help
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Hello Yorkshirepam,
I think if you contact "0113vanny" or "doric" on this thread, you will get all the information you need.
Best wishes
Histres
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Hi Histres,
Yes, that is fine with me for you to send johnbhoy a copy of that photo. I am glad that you have a copy of it.
Best wishes
Bethgem
Bethgem
Very patriotic photo, myself and Histres discussed it was obviously to stave away any anomosity during WW1.
Did you blow up the photo, is that a pair of shoes in the window? ???
Hi johnbhoy,
Sorry I did not reply.
No, I have not blown up that photo to see any of the details, although under a small magnifying glass on the original it does look like there is a pair of shoes in the window, hanging there! I do not think they are shoes though. Maybe some meat product all tied up ready to roast, perhaps.
I hope you like the photo. And I too think that it was part of a public relations gesture, although it was taken in 1935, but then perhaps my Grandfather took advantage of any publicity! I never met him. He died the year I was born.
Best wishes,
Bethgem
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Good morning Histres, replying from home base Australia, not sure how to get in touch with vinney and Doric..... struggled to find a place to reply and its says i am not allowed to have personal messages . Hope this is the correct place to find you..... thank you so much for your interest.
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Yorkshirpam,
You need more than 3 posts before you can receive PM's. One more to go and you are in
Richard
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Off topic, but best of luck to both teams tonight in the Champions League Final, maybe one day we'll see Histress' team VfB Stuttgart get to the final :D
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hello. have we discussed the Wittmanns? I just saw your post from april and wondered if i had replied. I have done a lot of research into the Wittmanns and don't think my John Wittmann was in Pontefract in 1881. have we already discussed this? sorry my technology powers are not good . . . .
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that was a message meant for Yorkshirepam by the way. All seems to have gone quiet on this PB's thread, am I on the wrong one? by the way, I am visiting Hohenlohe in a fortnight for my hols and - hurrah!
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Hi there yes its not the same Wittman Wightman or whiteman, but thanks for keeping us in mind.
We are stuck on the German connection still but found his German born wife Mary Zorb he met in the UK and married there.
But both were born in Germany but not sure where. Thanks for thinking of us.
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that was a message meant for Yorkshirepam by the way. All seems to have gone quiet on this PB's thread, am I on the wrong one? by the way, I am visiting Hohenlohe in a fortnight for my hols and - hurrah!
Have a great time in Hohenlohe, post some photos on here when you get back :D
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now, how on earth would I do that?!?!
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Hi
I drove through the Hohenloe region earlier this summer as part of my holiday in Germany. It was very beautiful and we both wished we had planned more than one one night there. We stayed in Bad Mergentheim, near where my Great grandfather came from and also went to Kirchberg where my great grandmother (a Wittmann) came from. I'm really glad we went,although I didn't find out anything with regards to records etc, it was very worthwhile and I'm sure you'll enjoy it.
Hilg :)
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Hi, I'm new to this site,I came across it by chance and have found it very informative.I was particularly interested in the post by Meerzhunters as I am researching my husband's family tree and he is also a descendent of John Louis William Schwab from Kunzelsau who came to live in Wakefield.I would be very interested in any information he found about our German ancesters.Coincidently my daughter now lives in Germany not too far from the area her ancesters came from!
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Hello Schwabsearcher, I can send you the archive entry of your Schwab forefather in Künzelsau. Just send me your E-Mail address in a personal message.
Best wishes
Histres
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Hi Histres,thank you for your kind offer.I don't know how to send a Personal Message.I'm new to this site.I looked at the instructions and it seems that I can't use this feature until I have made 3 posts.
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Hello Schwabsearcher
Well, now you have made 2 so if you make a short reply to me, you will have made 3 and then you can PM Histres.
Good luck and welcome to the Pork Butcher family.
Gill
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Thank you Gill!
Everyone is so helpful on this site.Until I found this site yesterday I had no idea that so many German Pork Butchers came to England.I thought my family were a rarity! Looking up a German surname on the geneology websites has made the English side of thing very easy but now for the hard bit,finding the forefathers.
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Hi Gill,
Schwabsearcher has already done three posts now and has contacted me right away by sending a pm. Thank you very much for your help.
Hope you and your husband are doing well!
Best wishes
Histres
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Thank you Gill!
Everyone is so helpful on this site.Until I found this site yesterday I had no idea that so many German Pork Butchers came to England.I thought my family were a rarity! Looking up a German surname on the geneology websites has made the English side of thing very easy but now for the hard bit,finding the forefathers.
Welcome aboard schwabsearcher, you'll find they're a helpful bunch on here, Gill was the first to reply to my post back in 2009 ;D.... and Histres pointed me in the right direction when I kept coming up against brick Wall(s) ;)
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Yes, I think one could say that Histres is our "angel in disguise". We have all been helped by him at one time or another.
There is also a feeling of belonging as we all have ancestors in the Hohenlohe region and can rejoice every time one of us finds or has been been lead to the origins of his or her family.
Who knows, we might find that we share "porky" relations and that would be the "icing on the cake".
Gill
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I think the same SwissGill. Histres is dedicated too, and keeps in touch.
I met him at the lecture in Bradford in 2011 and was so awe-struck that I forgot my username as I introduced myself. Anyway, the main thing was to thank him in person for the help he gave me in finding my paternal family in Germany. I will be eternally grateful.
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I can't thank Histres enough for the help he has given me already! Also thankyou Swiss Gill and Johnbhoy for the warm welcome to the group.
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Did anyone see Rick Stein on Who Do You Think You Are. His Grandparents were subjected to anti-German hostility, even in a small leafy English town. I guess the harassment was more widespread than just London & Liverpool.
Also mentioned in the programme, that over 38000 civilians of German descent were detained during WW1.
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Hi there, sorry just to pop in but i wonder if anyone knows of the Graters that emmigrated from Hermuthausen approx 1888 to start a Pork Butcher shop in Sunderland called Grater and Sons.
Georg Heinrich Graeter b 15 April 1972 and married Margaret Etzel who i know very little about. I am heading to Germany and to these regions in the the next 2 weeks and am hoping to find more about my GG Grandfather George. His name became George Henry Grater in Sunderland England and his son John Henry took over the business but my grandfather left England to come to NZ *(where he continued in the meat business as did my father until 1989). I understand the shop at 51 High Street East, Sunderland is still standing (without the sign) and has recently been deemed a historical building so is going to be restored. If anyone can help at all, would be much appreciated, Regards, Helen from NZ
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Hello Hellhappy,
The birthdate of your great grandfather should read 15 April 1872.
In Sue Gibbons' book "German Pork Butchers in Britain" there is a reference on "Henry Grader of Hermuthausen" on page 83. There the cencus of 1891 is quoted for:
Henry Grader, boarder, unmarried, 18 years of age, pork butcher, born in Hermuthausen, living at 3 Bridge Street, Framwellgate, Durham.
In Hermuthausen, the Gräter family are still living in their original building. It is an impressive half timbered house. I will contact them and ask if you can visit them to see your forefather's birthplace.
Best wishes
Histres
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(http://i43.tinypic.com/2w6cvhw.jpg)
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As per Histres reply: Sue Gibbons book - German Pork Butchers In Britain, ISBN 0 9537734 4 2, may still be available from the Anglo-German Family History Society, reprinted with amendments in October 2002
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Re the aforementioned book.If anyone has a copy,please could you look if there is any mention of the Schwab family from Kunzelsau.If so I may buy it.Thankyou
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Re:
In Hermuthausen, the Gräter family are still living in their original building. It is an impressive half timbered house. I will contact them and ask if you can visit them to see your forefather's birthplace.
@
Histres
Thanks so much! Yes did mean 18 not 19 on that date :) it would be amazing to meet graters from Germany and see the house if possible! Thanks so much for offering to try whatever the outcome. All the advice and information is greatly appreciated. We would be in the area 5-6th Sep for a few days. Looking forward to your reply, Helen
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Hello Hellhappy,
I talked to the Gräters of Hermuthausen today. They know about the emigration of your GG grandfather. They also told me that a daughter of him was married in Australia or New Zealand. This was your grandfather's aunt and probably the person who influenced his decision to go to the Australian continent, too. The Gräter family are happy to welcome you. But they should know what you mean by "for a few days"? Do you mean the days 5. - 6. September or do you mean you will arrive on one of these two days and stay in the area for a few days afterwards?
Regards
Histres
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That is amazing! Thank you so much! We will arrive late on 5th but will have the 6th and 7th as free days so if there is a preferable day and time we can work in with them. Unfortunately we do not understand German, do any of them speak English at all? Thanks again this is an amazing opportunity for myself and my father who have had so much trouble finding our German heritage.
Regards, Helen
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Re the aforementioned book.If anyone has a copy,please could you look if there is any mention of the Schwab family from Kunzelsau.If so I may buy it.Thankyou
I didn't see any mention of the Schwab Family in the Sue Gibbons book, nevertheless, it is a very interesting read schwabsearcher :)
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Re the aforementioned book.If anyone has a copy,please could you look if there is any mention of the Schwab family from Kunzelsau.If so I may buy it.Thankyou
I didn't see any mention of the Schwab Family in the Sue Gibbons book, nevertheless, it is a very interesting read schwabsearcher :)
Thankyou for looking Johnbhoy.I will look out for it on Amazon.I looked recently and it was not available.
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Hello Schwabsearcher,
you needn't buy the book "German Pork Butchers in Britain" at Amazon's, you can directly purchase it from the editor, the Anglo-German Family History Society. The following link guides you to their bookshop. The current price is 9.99 Pounds Sterling.
At Amazon's it's offered for unbelievable 1,200.24 Pounds Sterling.
Regards
Histres
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Sorry,
I forgot to add the link.
Here it is: http://www.agfhs.org/site/index.php/publications/bookshop-contact.
Histres
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Thankyou Histres
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Unfortunately we do not understand German, do any of them speak English at all?
Hello Hellhappy,
One of the Gräter's family members is able to speak a bit of English, so there should be the possibility to communicate a bit and to exchange some information. Moreover, it must be an extraordinary and sentimental feeling for you to see the house in which your forefathers were born and to get to know your relatives.
I would have liked to accompany you and do some interpreting when you are visiting the family, but unfortunanetly I will be at Hinckley in England to take part in the Halsted Trust conference " Exodus - Movement of the People" from 5th till 8th September. See the following link: http://www.exodus2013.co.uk/
Best wishes
Histres
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Very well written and informative article Histres, thanks for posting, I enjoyed reading that. Brilliant photo of the mural with the dog stealing the sausages ;D ;D ;D http://www.exodus2013.co.uk/german-pork-butchers-in-britain-3/
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I just want to say a public thank you to Histres for all his help in my family research, which culminated last week in me visiting the very house (mill) where my great grandmother left in the 1870's in Neuenstein. It was awe inspiring, thrilling, wonderful . . . and something inside me now feels at peace. :)
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I just want to say a public thank you to Histres for all his help in my family research, which culminated last week in me visiting the very house (mill) where my great grandmother left in the 1870's in Neuenstein. It was awe inspiring, thrilling, wonderful . . . and something inside me now feels at peace. :)
Great post, and I agree 100%, a lot of us would still be searching if it wasn't for the assistance of Histres :) :) :) :)
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FAO Berlin Bob.
I was updating some comments in the Wahl German Pork Butchers DBSIG this morning, and I was wondering, if in the future, there will be an option to add BMD certificates, photos, etc. Just a thought :)
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Hi, It seems that I am a descendent of a German Pork Butcher. John Frederick Dreher of Derby. I am visiting Derby in October and will be checking out the Silk Mill. Most of my Derby female family members worked there. My grandfather was a Gunston and lived in Eagle Street. John Dreher was his Grandfather. I'd love to know more about him.
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Hi, It seems that I am a descendent of a German Pork Butcher. John Frederick Dreher of Derby. I am visiting Derby in October and will be checking out the Silk Mill. Most of my Derby female family members worked there. My grandfather was a Gunston and lived in Eagle Street. John Dreher was his Grandfather. I'd love to know more about him.
rules
Good Morning Whispey and you're very welcome to the thread. As per Roots Chat Forum rules, you have to post 3 times, so 2 more posts are required :)
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Thanks to SwissGill and others for their welcome earlier in the month when I posted the following on the general forum. Also thanks to Gill for the extra information re the Steeges and Lindenbergers of Bradford - another piece of the jigsaw/web! Will repeat my original post for those who may not have picked it up before:
Both my great grandparents were part of the German Pork butcher migration from Wurttemburg: Christian Alexander STEIN (Kunzelsau/Castleford) and Margaret HAFFNER (Hohebach). As far as I know Alexander Stein was the only one of his siblings to come to England, but all of Margaret's siblings came and settled here, including their parents in retirement. All the first generation of Haffners in England married into other German families (FUCHS, NICKLAS, RUMMLER, MOGERLEY). Before the marriage of Alexander and Margaret (in Wakefield, WRY) she was working for the SCHWAB family in Wakefield, and Alexander worked for a STEEGE family in Bradford. After their marriage they opened a Pork Butcher's shop in Castleford, where Alexander eventually built his own premises - still there today, but now boarded up and looking very sad - not as I remember it in my childhood, when it was a thriving shop, eventually sold to Farm Stores (started by Mr ZIEGLER). Maybe some of these names will strike a chord with someone?
Also while checking the database, I see that there is an entry for a NIKLAS marrying an ANDRASSY, living in Wakefield. I well remember Andrassy's as Wakefield is my home town. One of the HAFFNERS (Burnley) married a NIKLAS (see above) - Friederike Haffner to Charles Niklas in Wakefield 1884.
Helen
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Following my previous post (No. 487) I have been looking at the database, and there seem to be 3 entries for Alexander STEIN, which seem to be for the same man and could perhaps be combined. Also I can offer some additional information, but not being the original submitter, think I cannot do this - Histres, can you do this? :)
Name should be Christian Alexander STEIN, dob 19 January 1858, Kunzelsau, death 23 May 1934, Castleford, WRY. Parents: Johann Christof STEIN, dob 26 September 1819 Kunzelsau, death 6 November 1874, Occupation: Bookbinder. Susanna Sofie Margarethe BREITINGER dob 13 November 1820 Kunzelsau, death 18 October 1893 Kunzelsau.
Places of abode: 1 = Kunzelsau, 2 = Bradford WRY 1881 Census, working for STEEGE, 3 = 1882-1911 Carlton Street, Castleford, WRY, 4 = Monk Fryston, WRY, 5 = Leake Street, Castleford, WRY.
Comments: Photographs available for Christian Alexander STEIN, Margaret HAFFNER, Johann Christof STEIN, Susanna BREITINGER.
I would like to be listed as a Researcher for this family, but do not know how to do this. Am finding the website quite difficult to navigate initially, but hopefully will get the hang of it in time!
Thanks in advance to anyone who can help - Helen
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I've removed the (technical) discussion about the DBSIG from this topic and created a new topic
Topic: DBSIG: German Pork Butchers in Britain - who can change it ??
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=665952.0
in the Reference Library board. Please add your comments there.
Thanks,
Bob
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I've removed the (technical) discussion about the DBSIG from this topic and created a new topic
Topic: DBSIG: German Pork Butchers in Britain - who can change it ??
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=665952.0
in the Reference Library board. Please add your comments there.
Your feedback is important, please join in !
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=665952.msg5142419#msg5142419
Bob
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Histres,
Thanks to your posting I have traced my Ebert ancestry to the Dorrmenz area (Henry Frederick Ebert (Heinrich Freidrich), born 1791. The Stuttgart Archives have provided me with a copy of the Pfarramt Lendsiedel, Fam.Reg.II Dörrmenz, s.43 as well as s.44 a page for Heinrich Freidrich's brother Johann Georg Ernst Ebert. My contact at Stuttgart indicates that Heinrich Freidrich's grandfather Johann Andreas Ebert was from Bächlingen and I have noticed your posts to Katiesummers and photographs. My questions are:
1. Is there a family connection between the Künzelsau, Bächlingen and Dörrmenz Eberts? I would presume this to be through Johann Andres Ebert or his father?
2. How does the Johann Andres Ebert posted in the picture of the mill stone fit in?
3. I cannot seem to translate the names of children 3 & 11 (same name reused) on Pfarramt Lendsiedel, Fam.Reg.II Dörrmenz, s.43. Do you have them translated?
I can add that there is a family relationship between the pork butchers Weidner and the Ebert. Pfarramt Lendsiedel, Fam.Reg.II Dörrmenz, s.44 lists the family of Johann Georg Ernst Ebert who is the older brother of Heinrich Freidrich. Three of his children appeared to have immigrated to England for various periods of time, and they can be found living with and apprenticing with both Johann Andreas Weidner and Georg Michael Weidner in the 1841 & 1851 UK Census data, and mentioned as nieces and nephews. They are child 5 Georg Heinrich (anglicised to Henry), child 8 Georg Michael (anglicised to George), and child 7 Maria Magdaline. I am uncertain as to where Georg Michael went after the 1851 UK Census, but Georg Heinrich marries Mary Ann Thompson in 1859, they both appear in the 1861 UK Census, and then disappear ... perhaps they went back to Germany. Maria Magdaline stays in England, marries another Wurrtemberg pork butcher Martin Gehringer in 1853 and can be followed with Martin up to the 1871 UK census.
I hope you can help me with my questions and appreciate the other info posted.
Cheers Jim
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Hello Jim
Welcome to the pork butchers population.
This thread has been dormant since last September and it would be good if it were revived.
Jim, I see from the database for pork butchers that you are an ardent seeker - everything I found about Eberts, you had, too.
I am also happy to see that you know "something" about databases, ;)
I hope that some of the pork butcher descendants will add again to this thread.
What I know of "our" forefathers, is that they were bird fanciers, dog owners, maybe racing or show. They also had many a rift with the local police, councils, etc. due to unjust scales, promises of marriages not fulfilled, fights, etc.
They did, on the other hand fill various posts in the local council, became teachers, extremely good athletes, i.e. in such sports as football, cycling, etc.
In my searches, I find various details about some of the entries and would like to add my findings, but cannot. Hence, I have to jot them down on sheets (not satisfactory), add them to my computer - better, but not ideal as at some stage, I would like to add them to the database, obviously but cannot without duplicating the entries.
Gill
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Hi Gill,
Thanks for the welcome. Since my previous post I have had to modify the familial connection between the Ebert and Weidner Pork Butchers in London. The existing Weidner PBs in the database were too young and in the wrong places in England.
Instead I have added 2 new entries to the PB database, ID:1952 WEIDNER, John Michael, and ID:1954 WEIDNER, John Andrew, and annotated the familial relationship to the nieces and nephews of PB database ID:160 EBERT, Heinrich Friedrich in them. These are the children of Heinrich Friedrich Ebert's brother and I believe the family connection stems from the marriage of a Johann Georg Weidner to Heinrich Friedrich's eldest sister Maria Margareta Ebert in Oberaspach, Wurrtemberg on Aug 2, 1808.
I too debated the issue of creating duplicate entries and have decided on a 2 pronged approach.
Approach 1: If the initial DB entry has only bare bones info, I go ahead and create a duplicate with my more detailed information. Obviously I won't do this if I have only minor shreds of evidence to add. At a future point my idea is to have the initial entry merged with the detailed entry and the database administrator can realign the ID #.
Approach 2: If I have information to add to an existing entry I use the Personal Messenger to send them a message with my additional information, and ask them to add it. I have been successfully doing this with Histres for the Heinrich Friedrich Ebert database entry and if you look at it you will find more information now.
However some of my other messages have yet to be answered and if after a reasonable wait period I plan to send a message to the database administration to either add the data and/or transfer the file to me for updating.
My research is all ancestor based, and sourced as best as possible. If I make an assumption I tell folks this in the comments, and I do not plan to create PB database entries unless I have a decent amount of information to impart. While doing my research I have been paying attention to other names in wills, census and marriage records and actually have plans to add several more PBs to the database, showing links to my family interests. By doing this I hope to spark more interest in adding to the database.
I also make extensive use of the comments field to add significant details such as exact DOB, DOD, date of British Naturalization, In-Laws, will executors etc to provide the research links for future and current users.
Also, check out my new entry for PB ID:1953 GLOCK, Johann Jakob Andreas, the son-in-law of PB ID:1954 WEIDNER, John MIchael.
Cheers ... Jim
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Hi Jim,
I do simarly to you.
If I find far more information than offered in the database, I set up a new entry. I would count on this that the original entry owner would eliminate his/her entry.
Unfortunately, a lot of pork butcher descendants do not feel as though they are supposed to be involved.
May I take this opportunity to say that you are all involved. Please join in.
Gill
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ok! all interesting. inwardly digested, will try to improve my bits . . .. . over and out!
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All,
I have just added a new PB to the database, ID:1955 EBERT, Georg Heinrich of Dörrmenz.
He is the nephew of PB ID:1952 WEIDNER, John Michael and his brother PB ID:1954 WEIDNER, John Andrew. He is also the nephew of PB ID: EBERT, Heinrich Friederich.
The familial connection between the Weidner and Ebert families appears to come from the marriage between Maria Margareta Ebert (Heinrich Friedrich's eldest sister) and a Johann Georg Weidner on Aug 2, 1808 in Oberaspach, Würrtemberg (Source: Deutschland Heiraten 1558-1929, via FamilySearch).
While entering data into the database I noticed a quirk in the Comments area. If I do not insert links to other pork butchers, I can insert considerably more text. If I insert links I get limited to say 250-350 characters (well short of the 1000 possible) and my text is truncated. For now I am removing links so I can insert more text.
Is anyone else having this issue? Is there a workaround?
Cheers ... arky101
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Hi,
While entering data into the database I noticed a quirk in the Comments area. If I do not insert links to other pork butchers, I can insert considerably more text. If I insert links I get limited to say 250-350 characters (well short of the 1000 possible) and my text is truncated. For now I am removing links so I can insert more text.
Is anyone else having this issue? Is there a workaround?
I've moved my answer to this query to
Topic: DBSIG: German Pork Butchers in Britain - who can change it ??
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=665952.msg5276442#msg5276442
regards,
Bob
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Has anyone come across the name Frederick Wick (possibly Wik in German)?
I have pretty complete England files on him from his marriage, children baptism records & his will so I am looking for a German connection. He died in 1830 and predated a census that may have told us he was Foreign born or from Germany.
Here is what we know:
Born abt 1762 (age 68 when he died).
Married Easter Radley in 1790 in England.
11 Children all baptised at St Olave's Bermondsey, (London), Surrey all indicating he is a pork butcher.
Ran a pork butcher business on Bermondsey Street, Bermondsey 1790-1830.
Another PB ID:160 EBERT, Heinrich Friedrich married his daughter Louzea (Louisa) in 1816.
More details are available by looking at the entry ID 1956: WIK, Frederick (1762-1830)
I/we are making a couple of assumptions:
1. Frederick Wick (his anglicised name) is indeed German.
2. Henry Frederick Ebert (his anglicised name) probably apprenticed with him and possibly lived with the family as he would have been 15-16 years old when he arrived in England late 1804/early 1805.
;D Does anyone know the name of the 1st (by year arrived) German Pork Butcher in the listing?
arky101
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Hi Jim,
I do simarly to you.
If I find far more information than offered in the database, I set up a new entry. I would count on this that the original entry owner would eliminate his/her entry.
Unfortunately, a lot of pork butcher descendants do not feel as though they are supposed to be involved.
May I take this opportunity to say that you are all involved. Please join in.
Gill
Welcome aboard Jim :)
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Thanks for the welcome Johnbhoy.
As part of my research I try to locate and use a period map to insert into my ancestral documents & records. Today I located the map in the link provided below and among the details on it there are indications of the size of churches/parishes serviced in the communities. A word of caution, the file is enormous ~190 Mbytes in size and can dramatically slow down it's viewing on the internet. If you right-click on the image it will let you save it to your computer where you will be able to view it much more quickly. The zoom aspect resolution is awesome and clarity of words is not lost as you zoom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F%C3%BCrstentum_Hohenlohe_Karte.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F%C3%BCrstentum_Hohenlohe_Karte.png)
Enjoy the image folks!
arky101
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thanks for this, however, I'm a find-it-difficult-tech-wise person. for me the resolution diminishes upon magnification. any tips?
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Thanks for the welcome Johnbhoy.
As part of my research I try to locate and use a period map to insert into my ancestral documents & records. Today I located the map in the link provided below and among the details on it there are indications of the size of churches/parishes serviced in the communities. A word of caution, the file is enormous ~190 Mbytes in size and can dramatically slow down it's viewing on the internet. If you right-click on the image it will let you save it to your computer where you will be able to view it much more quickly. The zoom aspect resolution is awesome and clarity of words is not lost as you zoom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F%C3%BCrstentum_Hohenlohe_Karte.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F%C3%BCrstentum_Hohenlohe_Karte.png)
Enjoy the image folks!
arky101
Great image Arky 101, have never came across that one before :D :D :D
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0113vanny,
I suggest you save a copy of the image to your computer hard drive and view it from there. If you right click on the image, then select Save Target As, it will let you save the image. Once saved on your computer, the file size should be 193,684 Mbytes in size (a very large file). It will display significantly faster on your own computer.
Let me know how you make out.
Cheers ... arky101
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Calling all German Pork Butcher fans !
A new addition to the Database ....
See Topic: DBSIG: German Pork Butchers in Britain - who can change it ??
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=665952.msg5296832#msg5296832
Enjoy :)
Bob
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Hi, I have just come across this forum and wonder if anyone has heard of Andrew Raap, pork butcher, who was recorded on the 1861 census in Glasgow, born in Alphinstart (Altenstadt??) in Germany.
He isn't on the 1851 census so presume he came over in between those dates.
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I have an Andrew Raab (which I think is how the German name would be spelt.) The Germans and the Swiss have a way of pronouncing the "b" as a "p" sometimes.
This Andrew Raab was a butcher and came to live in Whitegate, near to where I lived in Sandiway. His children were born in Scotland, his wife was Susan. Andrew would be "Andreas" in German.
I will have a "look see"
Gill
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Thanks. I see you also have interests in Northwhich. Andrew Raab/p was recorded in the 1871 census as living with Susan (nee Gunn) and his 3 children in Over, Cheshire working as butcher at Bradford Mill.
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Hi
Cannot help much.
Bradford Mill is actually Bradford Mill Farm. I looked at the census entries before and after the one showing Andrew Raab and his Family and saw that there were a lot of salt mine workers living at Bradford Mill Farm, a certain amount from Germany. Hermann Eugene Falk from Germany, Salt Mine Proprietor recruited a number of men from Germany (and elsewhere). He erected cottages to house them in the Over area.
I know Andrew's occupation is noted as butcher but maybe this was his initial occupation.
If you look at page 73 of the PDF below, you can read about it:
http://www.tonybostock.com/winsford.pdf
There are a number of Trees on Ancestry from which I gather that Annie Francis, Born Glasgow, emigrated to Brisbane, Queensland as did her sister Margaret Born 11th June 1868 in Paisley. She married Andrew Stewart and died 4th October in Brisbane.
Andrew Raab Born 1867 married Alice Edwards 1892 in Liverpool.
Gill
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A little more news:
Manchester Evening News 03 September 1875
A fatal accident occurred at a Liverpool Sugar Warehouse of Messrs. Henry Tate and Sons, Love Lane, Liverpool. A man named Andrew Raab, employed as a labourer on the premises, fell from No.3 room into the cellar, and was taken upin an insensible condition and conveyed to the Northern Hospital. He sustained a fracture of the skull, a fracutre of the ribs, and other internal injuries. He died the same night, never having spoken from the time he was admitted. The deceased was 46 years of Age, and resided at 44, Bevington Bush. He leavea a widow and three children. An inquest will be held today.
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what a story, how sad.
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Swiss Gill,
That is amazing. You have made my day. This is indeed my husbands great grandfather. I couldn't find his death in the statutory register but found that he was buried in the catholic cemetery in Liverpool in 1875. I had no idea about this accident, though the birth certificates of his children had him down as a sugar house labourer.
How sad. He had 3 sets of twins and 4 of the children and his wife died within weeks of each other...and now this.
Please tell me how you came across such a pertinent article. What sort of search did you do to find it. It's amazing! Thank you so very much.
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Swiss Gill,
In my excitement I gave you false info. It was his son Andrew, one of his 3 children who had the twins.
I am still reeling from your revelation about Andrew senior.
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I wonder if old inquests are available on line, or at least available to read. Does anyone know where I would look.
Also I will investigate the liverpool Echo which I am sure would also have reported the accident.
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I can't wait for the next installment of this story! what did they died of, the other family members?! How our present lives have come to be because of slim chances of survival in the past!!!
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I am subscribed to FindmyPast and, not finding a death, or anything in the 1881 census, decided to just put his name in to their British Newspapers section which comes with the full subscription.
At least FindMyPast has made someone happy, even though the news was sad.
I will try and save it and can maybe then send it to you. I'll PM you when I'm ready and you can give me your email address.
I tried "Lancashire Online" but there was nothing. At least, I didn't find anything.
Gill
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I wonder if old inquests are available on line, or at least available to read. Does anyone know where I would look.
Also I will investigate the liverpool Echo which I am sure would also have reported the accident.
I am not well up on this but I'm sure someone from the Liverpool "Squad" can help you out.
Let me know if you are lucky with the Liverpool Echo and if not, I'll send you the one on FindMyPast. I typed the whole text. All it said more in the newspaper was that this was the second accident that people will remember as two men had also been crushed by a hoist in the warehouse. So maybe there will be some information to gain.
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I can't wait for the next installment of this story! what did they died of, the other family members?! How our present lives have come to be because of slim chances of survival in the past!!!
Hello Vanny
When I first started researching, i was amazed at the number of "twins" I found on the baptismal registers. When I found "triplets", I started to investigate. Many families would baptize 2 or 3 or more children at the same time, regardless of thier birth Dates.
I found that very often one twin died in the early 1800's, or both.
It's part of the research that I find particularly interesting. Some women gave birth to about 4-5 infants who never made it past the first year or were stillborn. I also find it interesting that they gave birth to children from 20-45 years of age.
When one looks at "our" national tennis hero here in Switzerland, one can read that his wife gave birth to twin daughters about 2-3 years ago and has just given birth to twin sons. All seem to be doing well.
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I wonder if old inquests are available on line, or at least available to read. Does anyone know where I would look.
Also I will investigate the liverpool Echo which I am sure would also have reported the accident.
There is a Sugarbakers database which has been compiled by Bryan Mawer, a member of this forum:
http://www.mawer.clara.net/intro.html
Maybe Bryan would know something about the accidents at the warehouse in Liverpool, or at least could point you in the right direction to search.
Glll
P.S. I saw "Rae" from Scotland on the database and seem to remember you had had contacts on RC about this Name?
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thank you for that re garding babies and birth. I too have noticed the long long amount of years women gave birth in. Often there seem to be long gaps, say of 10 years between siblings. maybe there were miscarriages or early deaths not notified? were people supposed to ALWAYS notify the authorities of a death? an infant death too? or was it optional. ?
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Outstanding research Gill :)
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Thanks for the mention, Gill, and thanks for the extract regarding the fatal accident.
I'll add detail from it to the other 200+ sugarhouse deaths I've recorded on the Fatalities page on my website at www.mawer.clara.net/fatalities.html .
I'll be interested to hear if an inquest is found, though it's very likely to simply record the death as 'accidental' ... they rarely held employers responsible for such sugarhouse accidents.
This is the first fatality I've come across for Tate's, though, which is quite interesting. I've checked the book about Love Lane - A Hundred Years of Sugar Refining, the story of Love Lane Refinery 1872-1972, by JA Watson - but the accident is not mentioned. It was right at the start of refining at Love Lane, and I would have thought it would also be written up in the Liverpool newspapers at the time.
penstemon5, I'll PM you regarding detail on birth certs.
Bryan
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Bryan
The two other men who died beforehand were killed in an accident in June 1875, shortly before Andrew Raab met his fate.
They were Michael Russell aged 22 of 47 Chisenhale Street L'pool and Thomas McDonough aged 45 of 4 Wellington Street, L'pool.
I looked at your Fatalities' List but couldn't find them.
I will PM you with the details.
Gill
Source: Manchester Evening News 16 June 1875
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Thanks, Gill ... neither name on database either. Look forward to some more great info. Thanks.
Bryan.
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Hello! My wife is the great granddaughter of George Michael Weidner. His daughter, Beatrice Weidner, married a Thomas Henry Hibbert; their daughter, Beryl Christine, was my wife's mother - she married William Grimshaw. You'll find our full family tree on Ancestry.com - same profile, marklewis49. I'd love to make contact with anyone with information on the Weidners. Best wishes, Mark
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Hello Mark
Welcome to the pork butchers!
There is a database for them on here and you will find that there are more members related to the Weidners.
BTW Christine Belschner was originally from Niederstetten. I had been researching George Michael Weidner together with Histres (also a member on here) and when I mailed him the 1911 census he said that it must be the birth place of Christine as George came from Enslingen.
I have visited your tree on Ancestry and will message you from there, as well, after looking at my notes to see if I have any extra information.
I'm sure Histres will be delighted to make your acquaintance.
Gill
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Gill, thanks for your swift and positive response. I look forward to receiving your feedback on my Ancestry tree; and to meeting Histres via email. Best wishes, Mark
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Hi
I have recently put some new names on the PB database but have now seen that I have inserted some addresses in the wrong place and would like to make amendments. When I try to edit the amendments are not accepted. Do I have to wait a while before I can edit?
Limehouse79
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You can now add corrections and comments to the database :)
see
Topic: DBSIG: German Pork Butchers in Britain - who can change it ??
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=665952.msg5331815#msg5331815
regards,
Bob
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Hi
I have recently put some new names on the PB database but have now seen that I have inserted some addresses in the wrong place and would like to make amendments. When I try to edit the amendments are not accepted. Do I have to wait a while before I can edit?
Limehouse79
Hello Limehouse,
I've just changed some of the source code for the database. Before I look into your problem, can you try again with your changes- maybe it has sorted itself out (I hope !!) but if it still doesn't work, pleas let me know the exact record with the fields you are trying to edit.
Thanks,
Bob
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I have just found your discussion & would like to add that my husband is descended from Andrew Raab & Susan Gunn. His great grandmother was Margaret Raab who emigrated to Brisbane Australia & married Andrew Stewart. She died in 1944. We assumed he was born in Scotland & are really interested in this new info.
Thank you
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I have just found your discussion & would like to add that my husband is descended from Andrew Raab & Susan Gunn. His great grandmother was Margaret Raab who emigrated to Brisbane Australia & married Andrew Stewart. She died in 1944. We assumed he was born in Scotland & are really interested in this new info.
Thank you
It's definitely been a great discussion site for a lot of folk :) :) :)
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Hello,
I am glad to be of help. Roots chat certainly works to connect people!
Andrew senior(or Andreas) arrived in Glasgow from Germany between 1851 (I can't find him on that census) and 1856 when he married a German woman, a widow called Anna Bodden. She died in 1862 and he remarried another German woman, Anna Annacker also in 1862. She had a baby Andrew, who died at birth and she died 2 days later in 1863. He then married Susan Gunn later in 1863 and had 3 childres. They moved to Northwich in Cheshire between 1869 and 1871, when they appear on the census there.
They then moved to Liverpool, where he died in 1875 in an accident at the Tate sugar factory and their 2 girls went back to Scotland to live with their maternal grandmother before emigrating to Australia. Andrew junior stayed in Liverpool. Susan went on to marry John Rae in 1876 and had a baby Evelyn on 1881 but both died soon after.
I am still searching for the Raap/Raab family in Germany but no luck so far. Andrew snr's father was
Valentin, a farmer, and his mother was Magdalen Kebel. Andrew said he was born in Alphinstart, but this place never existed and must be a mis-spelling. I will keep searching!
I hope this is all of interest to you.
Regards,
I would be interested too in your family tree, to see the extent of their descendants!
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Thank you so much – you’ve pushed us back a generation & filled in many gaps. Family lore was that Margaret Raab told her granddaughter (my mother-in-law) that her own mother (Susan Gunn) died giving birth to twin sons? She always maintained she was a Scot. I don’t know anything yet about Susan Gunn’s parents.
As stated earlier Margaret Raab (1868-1944) married Andrew Stewart (1865-1943) in Brisbane & had 10 children.
(Matthew b1891, Francis 1893-1950, Ann 1895 - 1914, Eileen b 1892, Nellie, Thomas, Jack, Thelma 1910-1997 May b1906 & a son died at birth )
My husband Bill is Francis Stewart’s grandson.
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Hello Penstemon,
The village name "Alphinstart" must indeed be a misspelling or misreading. When I look at the name it occurs to me that it could be "Altensteig".
Best wishes
Histres
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Thanks Histres, I'll look into that. It's not a name I have met before.
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Trevene,
There are certainly a lot of twins in this family! Andrew Raab, the brother of Margaret went to have 3 sets of twins in 4 years. Unfortunately 4 of the children and their mother all died within a few months in 1896.
One of the remaining twins is my husband's grandfather. he had 6 children and 2 sets of twins among his grandchildren.
Susan Gunn's parents were John Gunn,spirit dealer of 130 Saltmarket Glasgow and Ann Gunn nee McGinn(?). They came from Ireland (see 1861 Scotland census) and Susan had triplet siblings !
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Trevene...sorry, twins not triplets. When I looked further, one of the 3 18 yr olds living in the house was the wife of one of the boys. Sorry
Penstemon 5
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Thanks penstemon
I noticed in the 1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription that Ann Gunn (widow, 83) had besides her 2 granddaughters Annie & Margaret, a grandson Felix Cassidy, 15. Do you have any idea whose child he was? Or when Ann Gunn died?
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Hi . I am new to this rootschat and wondered if anyone could help me ,. I am trying to trace my German ancestry. I have traced my roots back to John Kober ( born c 1849) and Rose Kober (b 1852) who were married and cited their place of birth as Germany. They came to live in Sheffield an on his naturalisation form he stated he was a pork butcher . This was also mentioned on the census forms . Does anyone know how to trace record back in Germany ?
I am interested for medical reasons to see if they were Ashkenazi Jews - the surname would suggest so - but not being a pork butcher!
Any help much appreciated
Thanks
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Welcome to the thread MrsBuckers
Our pork butcher database has information on the Kober family:
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/index.php?dbsig_name=German+Pork+Butchers
It has John KOBER marrying Rose GANSLER in 1873. She was from Beltersrot, near Kuenzelsau in Wuerttemberg. John had a shop at 88 London Road, Sheffield at least as long as 1881-1911.
It's unlikely the Kobers were Jewish, the vast majority of pork butchers came from the area around Kuenzelsau and were predominantly Lutheran. You quite rightly point out the paradox of a Jewish pork butcher.
On a personal note, John Kober employed my aunt, Magdalena Weibrecht in 1891, just before she left for America with her future husband, Christopher Kantenwein.
Do the naturalisation papers state where John and Rose were born?
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Hi RichardFunk
Thank you so much for your reply.... And so quick too!
From what I have found out so far John was my great , great, grandfather as I recognise the address from the censuses.
My great grandma was Caroline Kober their eldest daughter- who married David George Frank . My grandma was Rose Mary Frank, who then married Eric Leyland Weild. I think they lived in the Sheffield area for some time
There is no mention of the actual place of birth on John's naturalisation papers other than Germany . I haven't seen Rose's papers yet.
I am amazed and very excited to have found out this information. How did you know that your aunt worked there. Did she tell you any stories about the Kobers? Having 6 daughters must have been a handful!
I have been asked by the genetics department at Manchester hospital to check into my roots as we have a high ovarian / prostate cancer risk in the family and they suggested I look into my roots to see if there is any Ashkenazi Jewish connection from the Kober name. When I googled the name Kober it said it was AJ , but I doubt it now you have confirmed who they were and what they did.
Thanks for your help
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I only know my aunt worked there via the 1891 census, she went to America and we lost touch with that side of the family, so no stories unfortunately.
As for John's birth place, odds are it's near Kunzelsau, there are a lot of villages round and about, it usually tells you the village on the naturalisation papers, but it seems you've been a bit unlucky. Are you aware that John had a brother George (born c.1840), who also lived in Sheffield.
There maybe a sister Catherine too, but I haven't got a proven link for that. Your best bet if you want to pursue it is to find any siblings that John had and see if you can find out exactly where any of them came from. Or maybe you could find some distant cousins, they might have a place name or some interesting family records, I managed to find out quite a lot from cousins.
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Hello, I am new to this but I am trying to trace my German ancestors who were Pork Butchers and had a business in Wisbech, Cambridgeshire. Henry Harry Haffner is shown on the 1891 census working for Frederick Frank in Peterbrough, aged 17 born in Wurttenbury, Germany and I believe that he is my Great Grandfather. He married Martha Munton in Boston, Lincolnshire in 1900 and there was a Haffners Pork Butchers in Little Church St, Wisbech. Henry and Martha divorced in 1910,when I think the business was sold to G.W. Frank who are still going strong on the Market Place in Wisbech. Henry shows up at an address in Barnsley in the 1911 census, Martha starts her own business at a neighbouring property still in Little Church St Wisbech, moving to 2 the Market place sometime after (1919?) until my Father called it a day in 1972 and the business was closed down.
In the 1911 census my Grandfather's sister, Hilda Harriet Haffner age 7 is shown with Leonard Cantenwine at Bridgefoot Boston and listed as his niece.
I have read through some of the posts here and one of them states that the Cantenwine brothers Mother was a Susanna Elisabetha Hohenrein, my grandfathers name was Henry Harry Hohenrein Haffner but he died in 1943 and my Father does not remember him at all, my Grandmother quickly remarried, My Father was sent to boarding school and the Haffner side of the family kept very quiet from him. Any help would be appreciated, thanks, Richard Haffner, New Zealand.
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Welcome to the forum rthaffner.
There is a Haffner Family in the Lancashire area, I believe it's Burnley.
During WW1, the Haffners had 2 sons at the front, and when the 2 sons were on leave, they served behind the counter in their uniforms, due to the anti-German paranoia at the time.
Infact, (& Histres may correct me on this one), the boys uniforms are on display at the local museum.
I think that there is still a Haffner butcher shop in Burnley
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Hello, I think my Father had been in touch with the Haffners in Lancashire a few years back, he is still in the old country, only moving by about 50 or 60 miles from our native Wisbech where 3 generations of 'our' Haffner family were born, the last generation being myself, but had drawn a blank there, unless we are related way back in Germany.
I have tried looking for a Haffner/Hohenrein marrage but have had no luck, nor have I been able to find any immigration/emigration records of my Great Grandfather who seems to have vanished from the face of the planet!
Thanks for your reply, so quick too!
Regards, Richard.
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Meinkheim
Here is an interesting link to the Meinikheim Family from Ingelfingen:
https://www.wigan.gov.uk/Docs/PDF/Resident/Leisure/Museums-and-archives/archives/Past-Forward/pf64.pdf
Just scroll down until you reach the article.
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Some changes and enhancements here, which you might find useful .... :)
Topic: DBSIG - Database for Special Interest Groups: Enhancements
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=715435.msg5592425#msg5592425
regards,
bob
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Pauline Haas married Walter Shearstone in 1901 in Sheffield. Their Confectioner shop was damaged during WW1 by rioters possibly because she was of German origin.
Bev
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I have the official Imperial War Museum dvd of WW1, and there is a small clip of shops being damaged due to the owners being of German descent.
I seem to notice these sort of clips being mentioned in many WW1 programs being currently shown.
Maybe one day, someone will make a documentary of the civilians who were interned during WW1, due to their heritage..... now that would make great watching :)
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For anybody that had relatives interned during WW1, there's some info on how to access the IRC records online in the following forum http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=112434.27
....or you can simply go straight to http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en
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Once you have found the person, the bottom right hand corner, gives a reference to the page on the register, on this one it is: Alld XLIII (43). Underneath it has 42, which will be the 42nd of Alld XLIII. Enter those numbers and hey presto, there's your person and their internment history
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I wish all on the forum, a Peaceful New Year, and a special mention to Karl-Heinz.
Hopefully, looking forward to attending The 2nd Pork Butcher Descendants’ Reunion Germany, Hohenlohe Region from 3rd August till 07th August 2016.
Alles Gute im neuen Jahr! Prosit 2016!
Johnbhoy
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Dear Johnbhoy,
Thank you for your good wishes. I also hope that you can manage to take part in the 2nd Great German Pork Butcher Descendants' Reunion in August in Hohenlohe. If there is anyone else interested, please tell me and I will send you a registration form with details for costs and the programme.
I also wish everybody in the forum a Happy, Healthy, Peaceful and Successful New Year.
Histres
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I'm currently reading a book titled 'Boy Soldiers of the Great War', and I came across this little story, it's a 14 year old boy recalling a night in Hull, in June 1915 after a zeppelin raid:
'There were at least three big fires and much damage, including Edwin Davis' shop, near Holy Trinity Church, which was destroyed. There was much excitement and no doubt people were fearful and angry. It was Sunday night and a number of people attacked GERMAN PORK BUTCHERS' shops, one in Charles Street.
A policeman who attempted to protect a German shop from the maddened crowd was chased down the street and was lucky to escape'.
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Another interesting article on anti German feeling in Hull towards Pork Butchers of German origin
http://humberfirstworldwar.co.uk/1915/height-of-attacks-on-german-owned-businesses-in-hull/
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(http://humberfirstworldwar.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/1915/06/L-DBHR-2-5-1-1067x596.jpg)
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Hello all you descendants of German pork butchers,
I would like to inform you about a special event that takes place in the first week of August this year. I am organising the 2nd Great German Pork Butcher Descendants' Reunion in Hohenlohe, the area where most of your forefathers came from. You are all warmly invited. The four day meeting combines the historical background with an interesting culinary, cultural and sightseeing programme.
If you are interested, please send me a personal message with your e-mail address and I will send you the programme, cost and payment details and a booking form. After having received the latter you may still decide if you want to take part or not.
Best wishes
Histres
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Their are lods in country just look for the words LIDL and ALDI (SUD) OK
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Hello Swiss Gill! on 13 May 2014 you kindly sent me details of my husband's great grandfather's death (Andrew Raab, who died in an accident on 2 Sep 1875 at the Tate Factory), from the Manchester Evening News, also recorded in the Liverpool Mercury (both of 03 Sep). I have tried to find the articles again, by searching the British Newspaper Archive, but can not bring them up. Could I trouble you for the link to the articles? Many thanks Penstemon 5
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Been a while since I was on this thread. Obviously the result of hard work by many to get to this point.
Thank you for that.
My Grandfather (Frederick August Louis Schoch) was a Butcher in Wallsend, Newcastle at the outbreak of WW1 (he managed a shop for the Dorr family, as per the 1911 census).
He married a local girl (Ethel Gibson) and moved to Worksop (and his 1st Butcher shop), also their 1st born in 1913 (my father Frederick William).
I have not been able to find where he was interred but, while he was they had another child (Ethel May in 1915).
I have also not been able to find a record of his shop in Worksop or any location he worked after he was released.
I find him again in 1939 working for Chas Spalding and Sons in Oldury.
Again I find him in 1945, Langley near Birmingham, but I can only assume he was working as a butcher as I can find nothing to support this.
If anyone has come across Frederick August Louis ( or Ludwig August Friedrich Schoch) in their searches I would be most appreciative to hear from them.
Thanks
Richard
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Hello Penstamon
I no longer have a subscription to British Newspapers but if you follow this link you will see what I sent to Bryan who is a member here and he entered the details into his database "Fatalities":
http://www.mawer.clara.net/fatalities.html
Gill
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I agree, Penstamon, that 1875 for those two newspapers has disappeared from both British Newspaper Archives and FindMyPast.
Until they return we are left with the partial quote that I have on my website, just as Gill suggests.
Bryan
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Many thanks to Gill and Bryan. I thought I was going mad when I couldn't find them. How strange that they have disappeared, I thought once online they stayed there for ever!
Best wishes,
Penstemon
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Hi Richard
Frederich Schoch of 65 Bridge Street, Worksop was interned in late 1914, initially to Douglas in the Isle of Man and then moved into Knockaloe, Patrick on the Isle of Man as it expanded in 1915 to become the largest WW1 internment camp, holding tens of thousands of internees. At the end of the war he was transferred to Frith Hill, Frimley, prior to his release on 8 August 1919. Would he be your grandfather?
We should be delighted to help you find out more about his internment experience and also put you in touch with other organisations who may also be able to add to his story. Do contact us via our website www.knockaloe.im or via our facebook page www.facebook.com/knockaloeinternmentcampiom both to find out more and so we can then find out a little more from you to help us take this further.
We are a 100% not for profit Registered Charity seeking to retell the stories of the thousands of WW1 internees, most of whom spent a considerable part of the war living in our village of Patrick, as well as developing a Visitor's Centre at Knockaloe, Patrick. We should love to hear from you. Our contact details are on the website.
Many thanks
Alison Jones
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Hi Alison,
Absolutely he was my Grandfather.
Thank you very much for this information. It has been a long road to this point (5years), not just for him but the family he came from in Germany.
Fantastic ;D
I will explore your site for any other details that may be there. Are there actual lists that show his name, and those of his wife Ethel and the two children. I am still missing his sister Rosalin (Rosa) Nanette Schoch and was hoping she might turn up there as well ::)
Not able to visit your center I'm afraid as I live now in Canada.
Regards
Richard
ps: I see it was a "male" only camp. Always thought his wife and children were interred with him, but if they were then it could not have been at this camp.
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Hi Richard
I am so pleased. if you would e mail us with what you know we can take it further identifying where he was in the camp and looking our own and other archives for you. We should also love to hear the family's "story".
Our database is being developed offline at the moment but will be coming online hopefully next year. In the meantime we will email everyone contacting us and do the search for them. There is a huge amount of information so we are just trying to bring it together.
In WW1 the only women interned were suspected spies. Wives of internees were repatriated but could seek exemption to stay in the UK. The vast majority of the applications to stay in the country were approved. However life was extremely hard for the families. Public opinion was a huge factor in internment policy during WW1 and anti-alien feeling was high. If you can email as much information as you have then we can research the background for you and should be able to bring you some more information about the whole family's experience and also point you in the direction of others who can also help.
The database is being developed in a way to ensure it is currently sufficiently flexible to add the huge amount of information out there to it, hence not putting it online yet.
I am sorry you wont be able to visit, but perhaps at some point in the future. Our self guided walk (via a guidebook and or "app") around the site and area will be launched this year with an initial exhibition in the Visitors Centre which is still under development, and later this or early next year we shall be relocating an original hut back on site. So actually in a couple of years we should be able to provide a real sense of what life was like there. However at present we will provide private tours to anyone contacting us. In the meantime we are continually researching and are delighted to help on a one to one basis.
So do E mail, and the more information you have the more we will be able to tell you.
I am so pleased that we will be able to tell your Grandfather and his family's story at Knockaloe for future generations.
Kind regards
Alison
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Mollie Rosine MEYER (1914-2005) is listed in the 1939 Register as Pork Butcher Manager ... of her father's shop at 13 Cambridge St, Wellingborough. I'm told she was the cashier in her little kiosk in the shop, and that, in the 1950s, each day (ex Sat) just before closing time she could be seen placing a large dripping jar containing the day's takings into the carrier of the shop's delivery bike and racing off to the (Midland) Bank.
Mollie was the gt granddaughter of Frederick Meyer (1830-1916) of Kunzelsau, who moved down from Wakefield to set up his pork butcher's shop at 13 Silver St in Wellingborough in the early 1850s. By 1881 Frederick had passed the business on to son William (1856-1933), whilst elder son Frederick (1853-1932), after training in Bradford, had set up his own shop at 57 Gold St in Northampton. William grew the business, opening a second shop at 13 Cambridge St in Wellingborough by 1906. In turn William retired and passed the business on to his son William Albert (1883-1972), who, by 1920, had closed the original shop and moved to larger premises across the road at 20 Silver St, premises that I'm told actually backed on to the pig pens of the cattle market. From 1940 it would appear that only the shop at 13 Cambridge St was in use, and at the moment I can't get closer than it closed before the mid-60s.
The names associated with these businesses ... Roll, Hohenrein, Frank, Munz, Beyer, Retzbach, Rothermel, Kolb, Wachelor, Bokmaer, Boklmeyer, Rens, Blank, Weyman, Hamel, Schwelka and Holich; and just to add the three Ludwig sisters from Goggenbach, all buried under the same marble slab in Wellingborough's old cemetery between 1935 and 1947 - two had worked for the Hohenrein family in Hull, one for Fred Meyer junior in Northampton and one was housekeeper to Fred Meyer senior in Wellingborough.
I regularly walk past the premises that were once pork butchers' shops in Wellingborough, and have collected info about the folks who worked there, though I have no connections to the families mentioned or pork butchers. I don't have the time to write this up fully, and nor do I wish to add further duplicate entries to the German Pork Butchers database, but I'm happy to assist with info if others wish to tidy up the entries.
Bryan
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Just located this story from 1914 where my Grandfather's shop (Friedrich Schoch) at 65 Bridge St. Worksop was "attacked" and closed.
http://wsnl.co.uk/college/1914-18-at-worksop-college/how-far-did-peoples-lives-change-in-august-1914/local-germans/
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Hello Bryan
Interesting. Through the 1939 Register I have found the whereabouts of various of my ancestors with details of marriage in some cases.
I have also found the whereabouts of certain German Pork Butchers but like you unfortunately, have just had to list them, hoping one day to enter them in the database.
I had contact with a lady on Ancestry from the Meyer Family who is researching them for her grandson. William, Born 1856 was his ggt Grandfather. I have not heard from her since but will contact her again.
My own gt Grandmother, Margaretha Brück, was working for the Meyers - shown in the 1861 Census.
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"The names associated with these businesses ... Roll, Hohenrein, Frank, Munz, Beyer, Retzbach, Rothermel, Kolb, Wachelor, Bokmaer, Boklmeyer, Rens, Blank, Weyman, Hamel, Schwelka and Holich; and just to add the three Ludwig sisters from Goggenbach.
Bryan
Hello Bryan,
In the course of my pork butcher research I got to know descendants of the following families: Frank, Beyer, Retzbach, Rothermel and Kolb. I assume that they are interested in getting more information on their forefathers and what I can see from your contribution, you might be a good source for them. May I give them your email address? Personally I would be interested in Holich (of Künzelsau?) and the Goggenbach Ludwig sisters. If you agree, I send you a personal message with my email address.
Regards
Histres
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Thank you, Gill. Yes just the census for Margaretha, but much more for Meyer family if your contact requires it.
Bryan.
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Happy to help, Histres. Please PM your email address.
Bryan
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Hello all,wondering if anyone can help me as i completely new to all this.
I am trying to trace my family back and get stuck at 1861 as they origanted from Inglefingen in Germany. I can not seem to find any inforamtion on them,the whole family emmigrated, they even brought there servants. There profession was Pork Buchery and they carried that profession on when they settled in Warrington UK and Wigan.
The surname was changed from Mynkeyme to Marsden before World War I and this is all i know.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Regards K.J.Marsden
Hello Mr. Marsden
When I'm going to the Ingelfingen archives again, I will have a look into the Meinikheims.
Best wishes
Karl-Heinz Wüstner
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Hello
Frederick John and George Mynekyme of Warrington changed their names to Marsden in May 1930 (Gazette). Just Google the name Mynekyme and the Gazette will pop up.
Gill
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Thank you Karl-Heinz Wüstner,
Very much appreciated, i have received your message but unfortunately i cannot seem to reply, i would be grateful if you could send over the information and details you had mentioned.
Regards
KJMarsden
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Hello KJMarsden,
Yes, the rules on rootschat are that you can't send a personal message as long as you haven't had three posts on the thread. You have got two, so if you answer to my post you will have a third one and it will work. After your third post you will be able to send personal messages to any of the participants and you can exchange personal information that should not become public.
Regards
Histres
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If folks are still living it is best to use the pm function but if not please use the topics and reply button to contact other members.
Histres one of your pm's bounced back to us as the member has changed email address, If is a public message I do try to trace the member and pass the message on but this does not happen for pm's.
Regards
Sarah
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Hello Sarah,
Can you please give me a hint whose pm couldn't be sent successfully. I can then decide whether I can send its content on the public platform. Thank you.
Regards
Histres
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Hi Histres,
I can not remember, it was this morning I get though over 200 messages a day I think it was around the 6th. If a members email address is no longer working I leave a note underneath the profile name
"I am sorry but my email address is no longer working"
Sometimes I am able to find old members sometimes not.
Regards
Sarah
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Re: #567 on previous page ...
I've just been given a copy of the newspaper obituary, with photograph, of Frederick Meyer (1830-1916) of Kunzelsau, pork butcher of Wellingborough.
If anyone is interested, please PM.
Bryan
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My great grandfather Georg Haag came from Eberbach, Baden Wurtemburg to England and was a butcher in Chesterfield, Derbyshire I recently was sent a picture of his shop in 1911
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Great photograph Georgina :)
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Thanks - my cousin just found it, I was thrilled to get it, see the shop and my GGpa George Haag !!
I had a question which I hope someone may know the answer, re why did so many German butchers move from Wurttemburg in the mid 1800's - anyone know ?
TIA
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Hello Georgina,
Welcome to the thread. I have some answers to your question, as I am researching this special migration movement of pork butchers to Great Britain on the German side. I live in the Hohenlohe area where most of these migrants started in the 19th century to explore new spheres of life and find better economical conditions abroad. Eberbach is just about 13 miles from where I live.
You will find more information and also the answers under the following link:
https://www.surrey.ac.uk/cronem/files/conf2009papers/Wuestner.pdf
It's the text of a talk that I gave at Surrey University at Guildford in 2019.
Best wishes
Histres
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Fascinating I recently found this article referring to my Grandmother and her father http://s40local.co.uk/chesterfield-1915/
In town a crowd of mostly women attacked the market stall of a Mr Haag, a German pork butcher, terrifying his daughter who was running it, and then laid siege to his shop in Glumangate. Ironically, Mr Haag was a naturalised British citizen of long standing and his son had joined the British army.
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Dear GeorginaO,
Thank you very much for sending me the link with the description of the attacks of Georg Haag's shops. They were looted despite he was a naturalised British subject and his son fighting in the British Army. The article is a good source and perfectly fits in and augments my research. Meanwhile I have also found out that your great-grandfather was elected treasurer in the Chesterfield Pork Butchers' Association (1895, 1897; Source: Sue Gibbons, German Pork Butchers in Britain, Anglo-German Family History Society Publications, Maidenhead 2001, pp. 26, 27, 30).
Perhaps you can find out more about him in Chesterfield's Town Archive and in local business directories of the time, e.g. the addresses of his shops or also old adverts in the newspaper.
Regards
Histres
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Yes thank you very much!
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Sorry GeorginaO,
In one of my previous posts I mentioned the talk I once gave at Surrey University. There is a mishap in my post: The talk took place in 2009 and not in 2019!
Regards
Histres
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Haha I saw that I thought maybe you were a time traveller !!
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Hi Bryan,
I've stumbled into your post from last year and I'd be really interested to read more on what you know of the Meyer's both from Wellingborough and Northampton. I'm a descendant of them (more from Northampton) but ironically work 2 doors down from where they had one of their shops in Wellingborough.
Thanks in advance.
Phil
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Phil, welcome to RootsChat.
I have a lot of info for you, but first you need to reply to this message <i>twice</i> so that you can send/receive private messages and we can arrange things. (The forum rules say you have to have made 3 posts before you can PM)
Bryan
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Great, thanks for your prompt response Bryan, much appreciated.
Phil
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My second reply!
Cheers
Phil
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Hello Phil,
Welcome to the thread. I'm sure Bryan can help you a lot with his information. You know, the Meyers originated from Künzelsau in Hohenlohe. If there is any need to get information from there, going back into the early 19th, late 18th century, I could tell you which institutions are the right ones to turn to on the German side.
Best wishes
Histres
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GeorginaO, the attacking and looting by mobs during WW1 on your Great Grandparents and Grandparents was a recurring theme in Britain and Ireland, very sad >:(
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Hi Histres,
Thank you for the message. That's really helpful thank you! The family did keep in touch with the German side of the family until just before WW2 and then unfortunately lost contact with them. I've always been intrigued as to what happened to them!
Our understanding was that the family originated from a place called Schorndorf, so it's interesting to read of Hohenlohe. I'll have a read up!
Phil
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Hello Phil,
At the beginning of the 19th century the Meyers definitely lived in Künzelsau. The Wellington pork butchers emigrated from there. I'm sure that the material you get from Bryan will give you some evidence. However it may well be that descendants of the Künzelsau Meyers or even retiring English Meyers had moved to Schorndorf in or before the 20th century.
Regards Histres.
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Hello Everyone,
I was delighted to find this online resource which looks extremely useful. I am the great grandson of Friedrich/Fred Plank born in Hollenbach, Baden Württemberg in 1884. He was the younger brother of Carl/Charles Plank (b 1876) and the two brothers came over to the UK sometime around 1898. Both were pork butchers in Sheffield, with my grandfather I believe working for Gibbard's near Bramall Lane.
Looking at the database, Richard Funk has entered some data for a Charles Plank which is definitely Fred's brother. I was intrigued to see the entry : -Assisting Friedrich SCHONHUT (c.1868) - 1891. This must have been prior to leaving Germany which I would be very interested in hearing more about. Also, I wonder if the Friedrich Plank entered by Histres is my greatgrandfather or a distant relative? Happy to pass on what information I have.
We are visiting Hollenbach in a week's time so any further information on the Plank Brothers would be much appreciated.
kind regards, James
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Hi and Welcome to the forum James. I believe, if you are new to Rootschat, as per Rootschat.com rules, you may have to make 3 posts, before people can send you pm's etc. Just reply back to this post mate to make it your 2nd post
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Thanks for that- just one more post then I can PM people!
James
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Hallo James and welcome.
Frederick Plank was born 25.12.1884 in Hollenbach to Friedrich and Katharina Plank and was baptised in Hollenbach on 18.1.1885. Ancestry has the Baptism details but I couldn't read Katharina's maiden name.
Charles Plank was naturalised and the names of his parents were Friedrich and Katharina. I will check the baptism records for him, too.
I will get back to you later in the day.
Best wishes
Gill
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Good morning SwissGill,
Will it be possible for you to send me a copy of the Ancestry document on Katharina Plank's maiden name? I could also try to decipher it as I am perhaps more familiar with names that occur in the Hohenlohe area and also with the script that was used at the time. I'd be happy to help you.
Regards Histres
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Hello Gill and Histres, Many thanks for your efforts. I have a little data from Ancestry on 5 Plank family members. They were the offspring of a George Michael (Friedrich) Plank (1852-1894) and Katharina Margaret Busch (1843-?).
As far as I can determine, in order of age the siblings were:
Maria Margaretha Plank (b 1875 - ?)
Carl Plank (1876-1972)
August Plank (1890-1882)
Georg Plank (1881-1883)
Friedrich Plank (1884-1956) - my great grandfather.
Carl and Friedrich came to the UK together around 1898 and were Pork Butchers in Sheffield by the 1901 and 1911 censuses. I had always assumed they were farmers prior to arriving in the UK but may well be wrong. Of particular interest to me is what became of the eldest sibling Maria Maria Margaretha and her mother Katherina after the boys left Germany. I cannot find much at all to go on there.
I have a number of marriage and baptismal records form Ancestry but find the gothic script a little difficult. There are two ladies called Katherina M Busch which complicates things, born in 1843 and 1846 respectively. I have baptismal records for both (Weikersheim) and also a marriage record for another (Hollenbach)
with very best wishes,
James
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Hello Histres and James
Before opening up my messages again, I found the maiden name of Katharina Plank - Busch.
It looks as though Johann C Plank came over 1890 and his brother in 1898.
On the 1939 Register, Frederick gives his occupation as Journeyman Butcher and Johann (John Charles) was living on independent means both in Sheffield.
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Alright Gill, that corresponds with the datails that James has sent. So my offer to help deciphering is obsolete. Have a nice day in Switzerland. Histres
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I am looking for any informations or descendants from the Gronbach or Grombach butchers.
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I am as well looking for any informations or descendants from the Jaag / Yaag / Jag butchers.
Thenks for any reply
Patrick
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Good evening PatrickMartin, welcome to the thread. I am sure you will find some people who can help you here. The only thing is that you should perhaps give the forenames of your Grombach/Gronbach forefathers. This is useful as there were quite a number of pork butchers with these names in Britain.
Best wishes
Histres
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Thank you for the quick answer.
Yes, I found a lot of Gronbachs and Jaags in the database, even my own ancestors. I do know their own descendants, but would be interested in finding any descendants of their sisters and brothers.
My ancestors are:
John Grombach *4.4.1882 Sommerberg +21.1.1945
oo Sophia Jaag *27.10.1881 Cumberland + 11.5.1955
Johns sisters and brothers are
Johann Friedrich *8.1.1872 Zottishofen (He stayed in Germany, I know the descendants)
Catharina *25.3.1875 Sommerberg + Cowdenbeath
Rosina * 24.1.1877 Sommerberg
Georg *10.5.1878 +12.12.1956 Cowdenbeath. Butcher in Cowdenbeath (8 childs, I am contact to some of his grandchildren)
Magdalene *7.1.1880 (She married in Edinburgh a Johann Frentz, I know the names of their 5 children and some grandchildren)
Heinrich *13.4.1884 Sommerberg (I know just the names of his 3 children Elsa, Irma and Wills)
Gottlieb *Weidersbach (I know the name of his son Karl)
Karl (I know the name of of his son Richard)
Sophias brothers and sisters are
Jaag, Karoline, * 27.03.1878
Jaag, Friedrich Georg, * 26.03.1880
Jaag, Johann Christian, * 30.12.1882
Jaag, Johann Georg Friedrich Heinrich, * 09.09.1885
I will be thankful for any answer.
Patrick Martin
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'The Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Advertiser', available online, has advertisements for the Haags shops in Chesterfield and reports of the Pork Butchers' Association Annual Meetings.
Carol W
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Excellent Thanks Carol - Ill look at that- to find more stuff re my Great Grandpa George Haag
I'm also looking into some family recipes - I don't have any written down but I think I might be able to find some somewhere.
Georgina
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An update on my gt gt uncle, Leonard William Schmidt.
He committed suicide in his shop at 12 Strutton Ground in 1903 (see thread here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=764359.msg6160984#msg6160984) His children appear on the 1911 census with the surname Schmidt, but by the 1920s (as per electoral rolls, then reinforced by 1939 register and probate index) the children have changed their surname to COLE (their mother's maiden name).
I guess that their name change was not due to their father's suicide (reasoning being that they appear in 1911 as Schmidt) but due to increasing anti-German attitudes.
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Wonderful! I have recipes that I know by proportions. They are ones from my mother and grandmother. I look forward to receiving yours. The more the merrier.
Carol
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sent yesterday did u receive ?>
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sent PM so check your messages
Moderator Comment: Topic locked as it's getting really long (66 pages!). Topic continued as new post:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=766837.0