RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Inverness => Topic started by: the pretender on Tuesday 29 September 09 09:52 BST (UK)
-
The two attachments contain the birthplace of Angus McDonald which I have struggled to decipher, could someone familiar with Sky please have a look and maybe familiarity with the area will make it a lot easier than it has been for me and my daughter. The best we have done is Inver????? Kilmuir and ????? West Islands. The Kilmuir I am 90% certain but not 100. Is McDonald common on Sky as well as MacDonald?
Thanks.
Alan.
-
I have just realised by reading another post on the Inverness board that this could be Uist but need a more experienced person from this area to verify.
Alan.
-
Top one I read as
Inverness Shire, Kilmuir - the first s of the double s is a long one
see http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/INV/index.html
genuki shows there are two Kilmuirs on Skye
http://www.genuki.org.uk/cgi-bin/gazplace?CCC=INV,GR=NG380700,PLACE=KILMUIR
http://www.genuki.org.uk/cgi-bin/gazplace?CCC=INV,GR=NG250470,PLACE=KILMUIR
2nd one could be Ouist, or S Uist, West Islands - (South Uist)
http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/areawestsouth/index.html
Barbara :)
-
Hi Alan
Was Angus's wife Margaret Baird? I can see a John, aged 6, in the 1861 entry. There is a birth showing for a John to an Angus MacDonald and Margaret Baird (likely marriage/banns in Falkirk on 24 MAR 1850):
JOHN MACDONALD Birth: 03 APR 1855 Milton, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Parents: ANGUS MACDONALD and MARGARET BAIRD
Hopefully, although John shows as born in Laurieston, Stirling in 1861 it could be that birth in 1855 above. 1855 certificates, the first year of official registration in Scotland, contained a lot more info than in later years. For births, it should include details on parents' marriage, where the parents were from and ages, how many children the couple had (girls/boys, alive/deceased),
Monica
PS: Don't worry about the variant entries regarding MacD and McD. It is down to how people wrote down entries for censuses or registrations. When searching for Mac names it is always worthwhile searching with and without the 'a' :)
-
Ecneps, many thanks for you efforts the problem is obviously that there are a few Kilmuirs in Invernesshire and the handwriting on census is so bad.
Monica, spot on this is the family and it is the John you have born in Milton, Glasgow that is my primary interest. There seems some confusion as to where he was born as he gives Glasgow on his marriage cert to Janet Stewart in Edinburgh in 1884 and Laurieston comes up in some census returns but obvious moved back and forward to Glasgow. Will have a good look next time in Edinburgh or Scotlands people. Would have been nice to have the McDonald roots but will probably have to settle for Kilmuir, Invernesshire which could be one of a few, Uist is favourite but cant decipher what looks like an O before it on census. His wife was a widow on 1881 census and believe he have died in Glasgow just after the 1861 census so no info available other than the 51 and 61 census as per attachments. His (Angus) wedding cert does not give parents.
-
Hi Alan
I would have thought that the 1855 birth cert for John in Glasgow would help (if you haven't seen one before, they ran over two pages of the register for that year only) and hopefully what is showing on there for Angus' birth place will help.
Also, Angus' death certificate should include the names of his parents' including mother's maiden name, and father's occupation. They should also have been recorded as alive or deceased which may also help in trying to find out info on them.
Angus and Margaret's 1850 marriage entry was pre official registration. Parish Register entries unfortunately as you have found, seldom include much detail.
Monica
-
Did John marry Janet Stewart? This looks to be her line (and another 1855 birth cert for her! - 29 JUL 1855 Athelstaneford, East Lothian) http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=REG&db=alanhstewart&id=99552841
Monica :)
Added: Just noticed that with the user name for the above link, this may well be your entry :)
-
Barbara,
Do you know if Ouist is an old name or some sort of area name in Uist, I suppose the census taker could have had trouble spelling Uist but to put a cap O before it is strange if it is a phonetic guess at Uist.
Monica,
yes the alanhstewart is me, you have been a help with the tree but there are a lot of Mc/MacDonalds around in that part of Scotland which is probably why there are so many Kilmuirs to accommodate them. Just hope his death cert (when I find it) has a couple of unusually named parents.
Alan.
-
MacDonalds from the Highlands are a big part of my line.....fingers crossed that it will be an easy road for you - unlike me!
Monica
-
Hi Alan,
Uist is across the water from either of the Kilmuirs, so I'm wondering if it's not that at all, and is a small village nearby one of them. If you go to the links I gave and click on 'nearby places' at the top there are lists of places near Kilmuir, I had a quick look but couldn't see anything resembling Ouist. Western Isles is the outer Hebrides, while Skye is the inner Hebrides.
Here's a list of placenames in the Western Isles:
http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/scotgaz/councils/councildetails32.html
Barbara
-
Got the birth certificat of John the son of Angus Mc/Mac Donald and yet another stinker, probably even more difficult to decipher than the census certs.
From his birth cert I get nearly everything on it except the place in Invernesshire his father Angus was born which is what I was after. Could it be N Uist or is it just because I want it to be.
Info I get is April 3rd, 1855. 177 Bains Court, Maitland Street, Milton, Glasgow which is spot on as John gave Gayfield Street on his marriage cert which was just a few streets away. The father is Angus McDonald (carter) ?????, Invernesshire. Make it 2 boys and 1 girl living but dont know if this includes the John on the certificate. All is not easy but eventually legible just the ????? with Invernesshire. To make matters worse the death of Angus McDonald is not the one I thought (1861, Clyde, Glasgow) and cant find anyone on the 1771 census making it necessary to wait for Edinburgh visit and trawl through them there. How unlucky can it be to get so many bad images.
-
Ahhhh....the hunt goes on :-\
I actually don't think it gave a place name in Inverness-shire. I think is simply states, Angus MacDonald, Carter, then the bit you can't make out and think possibly is a place name, I think is his age 25 years maybe and then Inverness-shire.
Re, number of children, I would say John was her 3rd child. So you have James b. 1850, then probably a girl and then John.
You should contact SP on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/contactus/form.aspx?issue=24 regarding an illegible image and they will send you back an enhanced image/sections as required via email. They are very good on these types of queries which as you can imagine are not infrequent with these registers. It helps to include the GROS ref on your email to them. Response is normally 24-48 hours for this type of enquiry.
All hopes rest on his death entry. Have you found Margaret Braid as yet in 1871 to try and narrow down Angus' death dates?
Monica
-
I think this might be Margaret and son John in 1871. The transcription I am looking at on Ancestry can often mistranscribe but given John's occupation in 1881, I think the original could well confirm the name as Margaret.
So, we had Angus and family in Falkirk Landward in 1861. Margaret and son, as you say, show there in 1881, John occupation shows as a moulder. I think this might be them in 1871, with Margaret's name mistranscribed:
Mary Bandon McDonald 56, laundress b. Falkirk...Margaret also shows as a laundress in 1881
John McDonald 15, moulder b. Falkirk
Address: George St, Falkirk Landward
Alan, why do you think that Angus may have died in Glasgow. You get the feeling that the family didn't really move away from Falkirk over the years.
There is a death showing on SP for an Angus McDonald in Falkirk in 1864. Now I think this may be one of those entries for that period where the age shows as unrecorded on the index but once you look at the image it does actually include the age of the person. (Try searching with an age parameter of 0 to 110 and you get zero results, take off any age and you will see you get one entry).
Fingers crossed it may be the right one.
Monica
-
Monica,
you are hot on the genealogy, you have got them on the 1871 census and I wonder why on Scotlands people I got nothing searching Falkirk and Glasgow for John the son and his mother margaret. Also agree that is probably Angus death you have found and thank you for your experience and time in locating him, I am sure I would not have found it.
I thought Angus may have died in Glasgow as his son John was born there as per certificate and John on his marriage certificate gave his address as a few streets away from where he was born in Glasgow so there was a link in that area. John an iron moulder on his wedding cert.
I have an advantage on you with the birth cert. of John as I can manipulate it easily and the birthplace of father (Angus) is reasonably clearly marked Invernesshire with what could (with some imagination) be N Uist above it but that line is nearly illegable though as I say, no doubt about the Invernesshire.
Thank you so much (everyone) for your time and trouble as I am sure I would not have got there alone. If I find the place of birth I will post it on this thread.
best wishes,
Alan
-
Monica, you have done it again, agree it is '39 years' and then Invernesshire.
Daughter thinks you are amazing.
Alan.
-
Just too long looking at images of BMDs ;D
Likely in 1871 that Margaret has been entered as Marg. Baird McD and it's been indexed as Mary Bandon McD.
Let us know how you get on!
Monica :)
-
Have just noticed this trail. At a glance, going back to the original question, the problem does not seem to have been resolved. The entry was evidently Ouist, a phonetic attempt at spelling by the enumerator and, setting aside speculation about a Skye connection, there is a Kilmuir in North Uist so the entry would seem to make sense.
-
Thanks again to all,
Monica, the suggested death of Angus McDonald (Falkirk, 1864) was indeed correct and gave his death as drowning, age 40 with parents Donald McDonald (church officer) and Catharine McLeod. No luck with the marriage and 1841 census has only one fit so far at Hungladder, Kilmuir, Skye with Donald McDonald age 60 and wife Catherine age 40, children: Malcolm 15, ANGUS 15, Ranald 13, Catherine 11 and Alexander 9.
So many McDonalds and McLeods that I now will have to wait until I visit Edinburgh next and trawl through this line, has been one of the most annoying attemps at tracing a line I have come across and a lot of the successes were down to you.
best wishes,
Alan.
-
At a glance, going back to the original question, the problem does not seem to have been resolved. The entry was evidently Ouist, a phonetic attempt at spelling by the enumerator and, setting aside speculation about a Skye connection, there is a Kilmuir in North Uist so the entry would seem to make sense.
Alan, did you notice this reply by angusm, he seems to have solved the birthplace problem for you
Barbara :)
-
I did notice the post advising a Kilmuir on Uist which I was aware of, the gaelic for Uist being Uibhist. Hard to imagine the O being put in as a phonetic mistake though and nobody fits from any census return but thats not to say it cant be so. The O on the census return could indeed be an A and the writing was so inconsistant the consonants could be almost anything. Needs a day in Edinburgh trawling through the Mc/MacDonalds of which there are plenty in the area not to mention a lot of McLeods.
regards,
Alan.
-
Don't wish to make aproblem but there is a Kilmuir in North Uist.
The graveyard includes a stone for Flora Macdonald.
Eruc
-
Sorry, didn't see the earlier reply
Eric
-
Hard to imagine the O being put in as a phonetic mistake though and nobody fits from any census return but thats not to say it cant be so. The O on the census return could indeed be an A and the writing was so inconsistant the consonants could be almost anything.
Hi Alan,
It's really not hard to imagine a phonetic mistake - have you seen many census returns?! :P Particularly at this time (1851) spellings were not set in stone, particularly if the place name was a Gaelic one - an English speaker could write it any way they saw fit.
I don't think the first letter of "Ouist" is an "A" although it is similar to the way the enumerator writes his As...I'm fairly certain, considering where the pen leaves the letter to go on to the "u", that it's an "O". The consonants in the place name (if that's what you are referring to) are quite clear so I'm not sure whether there is really a problem with deciphering this particular place name...or am I getting the wrong end of the stick? ???
Cheers
Prue
-
The problem as I see it is that Ouist does not exist and is not the gaelic for Uist. If you were to spell Uist in a phonetic fashion then you would still end up with Uist. There is also the problem that nothing fits (as yet) and will need a trip to Edinburgh to sort things out, it may well be Uist but at present the Skye Kilmuir is the only one producing a census return in '41 that matches up, strange but maybe possible that the family moved from Uist to Skye but the likelyhood of going from one Kilmuir to another is slight. As I say Edinburgh beckons.
-
Ouist appears to simply be an alternate manner of spelling Uist, as evidenced by these references from 19th century books:
"On the 2nd, they arrived at the island of Erisca, belonging to Clan-ranald, which lies betwixt the isles of Barra and South Uist, or Ouist..." [Forbes, R (1834) Jacobite Memoirs of the Rebellion of 1745. Edinburgh: W & R Chambers.]
"When the herrings have once pushed their way to the southwards of the Ouist Islands they make a shorter stay at Mull, Isla, Jura, and Argyleshire..." [Lifford, JH et al (1861) A collection of tracts and treatises... Dublin: A Thom.]
The fact that it doesn't match up with other stated birthplaces is another matter, but I think everyone would have at least one person in their tree who gives randomised birthplaces in different censuses. My g-g-g-grandfather was born in Woodlands, Dorset, or Bath, Somerset, depending on which census you look at.
All I'm saying is: don't discount it just yet :)
-
PruM,
Thanks for that, I had not been able to find any trace of Ouist being used instead of Uist and must make Uist favourite now.
Alan .
-
Just to correct one thing that could continue to cause a problem. Phonetic pronunciation of the Gaelic in the islands themselves does day by day sound Ooist and would not as suggested above arrive at Uist as yooist.
-
Thanks everyone who responded, now content that it is Ouist/Uist and will proceed to trawl through the many McDonalds in that area to locate them. The father of Angus McDonald was Donald McDonald who was a church officer on the death cert of Angus so though they probably moved around a bit should get them eventualy.
Alan.