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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wexford => Topic started by: manus on Monday 12 October 09 20:23 BST (UK)
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Hi all I wonder if someone can help me find a marriage for a John Gowan to Mary Byrne . I found them in the 1911 census and it says they have been married 30 years but first child was born 1880 so it must be more then 30 years both John and Mary were born in Gorey Wexford so have been looking on family search but can not find a marriage for John any help would be great thanks.
Regards Manus
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From 'The Wexford War Dead' to be published on December 5th.
Here are the Byrnes from Gorey that died in ww1.
BYRNE, GARRET. Rank: Private.
BYRNE, JOHN. Rank: Private.
BYRNE, WILLIAM. Rank: Private.
Regards.
Tom.
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Hi Tom
Thank you for your reply and help. I don't Know much about my G-grandmother Mary Byrne. I was hoping to find her marriage certificate so I could find out who her father was but maybe it would be better if I find her birth. I know she was born about 1858. thank you for the information. I will . as they could be related to Mary.
Regards Manus
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Hi Manus,
I did have a look yesterday- Gowan/Gowen/McGowan etc- but now wondering if I am looking for the wrong people anyway! There are lots of Mary Byrne marriages which make it difficult but no cross reference.
Which 1911 census are they in and is the spelling Gowan?
thanks
heywood
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Hi Haywood Thank you for your help. Yes the name is Gowan and the place is Wingfield Gorey Wexford I did find a marriage for a John Gowan on familysearch for 1858 but this I think is John's Father as John was born about 1858 The Gowan's are the only family in Gorey at this time.
Regards Manus
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Hi again,
am confused ???
1911 for Wingfield has Byrnes but no John and Mary Gowan - that I can see.
Have I missed them?
Or, are you saying that the marriage would be there and I have misunderstood.
thanks
heywood
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Is this the family?
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wexford/Wingfield/Hollyfort/684254/
Dara.
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I found this but no Mary Byrne to match:
Name: John Gowen
Registration district: Enniscorthy
Record type: MARRIAGES
Registration date - quarter and year: 1876
Volume: 4
Page: 756
Dara.
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Is this the family?
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wexford/Wingfield/Hollyfort/684254/
Dara.
Thanks for that Dara- I don't know what I was doing but the entries just didn't show when I searched as Gowan or Wingfield. :-\
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I found this but no Mary Byrne to match:
Name: John Gowen
Registration district: Enniscorthy
Record type: MARRIAGES
Registration date - quarter and year: 1876
Volume: 4
Page: 756
Dara.
this Mary could be a cross match to the record Dara found...
Name: Mary Brien
Registration district: Enniscorthy
Record type: Marriage
year: 1876
Volume: 4 / Page: 756
Shane
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Hi Heywood Dara and Shane
Sorry to confuse you I should have said Mary Gowan (nee Byrne)and John Gowan on one of the children's birth certificate's and the name Byrne is how it was spelt and that is the same as the other 3 children's birth certificate's that I have found. The John Gowan for Enniscorthy. I have seen this one but it's the wrong one as he has a different Family. Thank you all so much for your help.
Regards Manus
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If the 1911 census return posted earlier is the correct family, both John Gowan and his wife Mary list themselves as being unable to write.
Bearing this in mind, anywhere their names were written (e.g. birth or marriage certs) were recorded by other people. The 3 children's birth certs may have been recorded by the same person and therefore show a consistency in spelling that may not extend to all written records of their names.
I'm sure you have good grounds for ruling out the 1876 marriage, John Gowen and Mary Brien. If it was me, I'd risk the €4 just to be sure.
Besr wishes,
Dara.
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Hi Dara,
when I was getting confused earlier and couldn't find the right census sheet, I was searching for Gowen ::)
There is a John Gowen, widower, married for 33 yrs. His oldest daughter with him is Mary Ann so his may well be the 1876 marriage :(
heywood
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Hi Heywood
Yes I see that John Gowen he's not my John Gowan. when I was looking at the census it say's he had 9 children 7 was still living at the time of the census so far I have found 4
Ann born 1880
John born 1882
Catherine born 1886
James born 1889 I have got the birth cerificates for this 4. The 3 other children
are Harry born 1892
Molly real name is Mary born 1896 (My grandmother)
Thomas born 1889 I can not find the birth's so he may not have registered them. I guess the only thing I can do now is to find out what church they were baptized in.
Thank you for your help
Regards Manus
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Hi heywood,
Looks like you are right. Well spotted.
Between 1870 and 1889 there is only 1 John Gowen marriage recorded in Wexford. Looking at the whole of Ireland there are only 6 John Gowan/Gowen marriages during the same period. I can't find a Mary Byrne match for any of the 6 (apart from the Mary Brien mentioned by Shane above).
Sorry I can't be more helpful at this point Manus.
Dara.
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I'm just in the process of looking at 50 pages of John ? marriages and trying to match up but ??? :-\ ::)
I've also tried variations of spellings and Mc prefixes.
Manus
You wrote earlier that both John and Mary were born in Gorey. Are you certain about this? You know about their oldest child being born 1880- do you have that birth certificate? I am wondering if they were always in Hollyfort.
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Dara thank you for taking the time to help me
Regards Manus
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Hi Heywood
Yes as far as I know they have always lived in hollyfort Gorey Wexford some where down the line he is related to John Hunter Gowan maybe his gggrandson Thank you for your help and time.
Regards Manus
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I had found reference JHG - recalled something on here before but didn't think your family as Catholics would be related.
Do you have them in 1901 census? I can't see a birth for Harry aged 19 in 1911 and wondered (I do a lot of that) if that is his name in 1901.
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Hi Heywood
Yes I see that John Gowen he's not my John Gowan. when I was looking at the census it say's he had 9 children 7 was still living at the time of the census so far I have found 4
Ann born 1880
John born 1882
Catherine born 1886
James born 1889 I have got the birth cerificates for this 4. The 3 other children
are Harry born 1892
Molly real name is Mary born 1896 (My grandmother)
Thomas born 1889 I can not find the birth's so he may not have registered them. I guess the only thing I can do now is to find out what church they were baptized in.
Thank you for your help
Regards Manus
Good morning Manus,
I suppose the most important of the birth certificates is the first one for Anne because this would be nearest the marriage.
Are John and Mary living in the same place throughout- from 1880- 1911?
I notice that in your earlier posts, you thought that your grandmother (?) had changed her religion to Roman Catholic but we can see that the family are Catholic in 1911 so perhaps it may be worth trying for baptism records from the local church.
heywood
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Hi Heywood
On Ann's birth certificate it say's place of birth Faraheen but I could not find it in Wexford. I think this is a mistake and it should have been Raheen. The registrar's District was Coolgreany Gorey Wexford This is a copy of the birth certificate On the other 3 it say's place of birth Hollyfort. Thank you for your help.
Regards Manus
Moderator comment: only small portions of certificates may be posted and then only to assist with deciphering handwriting.
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It might be worth ordering a research cert from the GRO to check the original entry. This would be a scan/copy of the register and it might be possible to decipher the correct location.
Shane
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Hi Shane
Thank you for your help. I ordered that certificate over the phone from Dublin office. Would I be able to order a research of the original from the same place.
Regards Manus
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I think you have order these from Roscommon by post (http://www.groireland.ie/apply_for_a_cert.htm)
.. but it might be worth trying by phone. From a search of the Civil index I believe these are the details you need :
Name: Anne Gowan
Registration district: Gorey
Record type: Birth
quarter and year: Jul - Sep 1880
Volume: 2 / Page: 801
if you provide these with your order they will not have to do a search, so it costs much less (I think about €4).
Shane
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Hi Shane
Thank you for your help I will phone them and see what they say.
Regards Manus
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Hi Heywood
On Ann's birth certificate it say's place of birth Faraheen but I could not find it in Wexford. I think this is a mistake and it should have been Raheen. The registrar's District was Coolgreany Gorey Wexford This is a copy of the birth certificate On the other 3 it say's place of birth Hollyfort. Thank you for your help.
Regards Manus
Moderator comment: only small portions of certificates may be posted and then only to assist with deciphering handwriting.
There is a Lahareen (very difficult to find anything about it online) but I found it on seanruad site - then looking at a map on Askireland Griffiths - it's very close to Hollyfort. However can find nothing about registration districts.
It's very frustrating this but enjoyable. ;)
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If you check www.thecore.com/seanruad the Poor Law Union is Gorey and that will also be the registration district.
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Hi Heywood
Laraheen could be the place I am going to send off for a copy of the original and see what that say's but I will keep looking for Laraheen. Thank you very much for all your help.
Regards Manus
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Hi all sorry about the certificate it won't happen again
Regards Manus
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Just doing a general search gives nothing for Lahareen but looking for Hollyfort on a map shows it ???
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&rlz=1R2SKPB_enGB342&q=hollyfort%20wexford&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl
I just thought that Lahareen was similar to Fahareen.
However, I don't understand re Coolgreany. :-\ I can see that Coolgreany is not far away so I feel ok now. ;)
Again by looking for Catholic churches (as I said earlier they are Catholic in 1911) I saw that there is a church at Kilanerin which may be the parish.
Maybe Shane would know more or be able to figure this out.
I am only trying to make some sense of this- hope you don't mind.
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Now this is interesting.
Manus, you refer to John Hunter Gowan - the (in)famous one lived long before this John but there is a death in the indexes for John Hunter Gowan 1865.
This site: http://www.irelandoldnews.com/obits/obidxg.htm
indicates that there was an obituary - JHG was 28 yrs at death in 1865 so can't be the father of your John but it does say Hollyfort.
Unfortunately it is not online. :'(
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Hi Heywood
On Ann's birth certificate it say's place of birth Faraheen but I could not find it in Wexford. I think this is a mistake and it should have been Raheen. The registrar's District was Coolgreany Gorey Wexford This is a copy of the birth certificate On the other 3 it say's place of birth Hollyfort. Thank you for your help.
Regards Manus
Laraheen sounds like a strong possibility to me - only require misreading of one letter when the GRO transcribed the details for the official cert you have.
I believe Coolgreany is the sub-district for the birth, part of the Registration District of Gorey. Coolgreany town is less than 10km from Holyfort, and a little closer to Laraheen.
the locations on a google map : http://www.rootschat.com/links/07a1/
I'd say the next step is to examine a copy cert to confirm both the location and mothers maiden name and see what that reveals.
Manus - are the other certs you have the same format as Ann's ? (i.e. transcripts )
Shane
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Good morning,
I thought I would just mention this- not sure if it has been looked at before. I saw it yesterday.
IGI submitted record (no source at all)
"Marriage About 1873 Of 1874 Births, Civil,,, Ireland" (what does that mean ???)
Mary Burns and John Spear Gowan
I wonder if Spear is a play on Hunter - very odd. :-\
It might fit in with the other John Gowen marriage if he married Mary Brien :-\
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I have a Sarah Hunter who was listed as Sarah Hawk at the baptism of her 1st child!
The IGI record is submitted (by person unknown) and it looks like they got John and Mary's names from an 1874 civil birth record and are thus assuming (as people sometimes do ::) ) that John and Mary were married a year before the child's birth.
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Thanks aghadowey,
I wondered about that.
It may be then that this is the other couple :-\
It's like a word association game perhaps ;D
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I've looked through the list of townlands included in the District of Gorey, Sub-District of Coolgreany and see that it includes maybe 100 townlands, including Holyfort and Laraheen.
The only placename in the sub-district beginning with F is Fortchester (uppper & lower). Two placenames include 'heen' and they are Laraheen & Laraheenhill, which are both in Kilcavan Civil Parish.
Shane
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Hi All
Thank you all for your help and time
Shane 2 of the other birth's certificate's are the same as Ann's but the one for son John born 1889 is a copy from the Original register and other then Ann's the other 3 all say birth place Hollyfort Gorey Wexford birth's all registered in the district of coolgreany. I think that Laraheen is the right name and as you say it is only one letter wrong . The registrar was the same person for all 4 birth's a James Metge also John and Mary could not write they just made the mark x
Thank you all again for your help
Regards Manus