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Family History Documents and Artefacts => FH Documents and Artefacts => Topic started by: andarah on Friday 23 October 09 00:18 BST (UK)
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I have a representative cap from my great-grandfather's days as a `football' player in Scotland.
It says `GvI 1921' and it is black velvet, with a metal tassle.
Any ideas how I can figure out what it's from? Who he was playing for?
We thought Great Britain vs Ireland??? But, I don't think so.
He was a professional player, if that helps.
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Hi
What was his name?
I can check to see if he's in my book :)
Gadget
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William Bradley
He played for QOS, Pollack, Barrow and Cowdenbeath.
I know that he was with QOS in 1925/26 and Cowdenbeath/Barrow in 1922/23.
I know that he was a midfielder.
He was born in 1895, so he would have been 30 when he played for QOS (not in his prime, LOL).
What book do you have?
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Hi again
I have him born 1st March 1893, Glasgow. Played inside right.
1922-23 - played 48 times and scored 6 goals for Barrow and then played for Queen of the South (Dumfries). Before that he played for Pollock Juniors and Cowdenbeath.
The book only lists the number of caps for Internationals within the British Isles (i.e. England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales) and he's not down as having any so the cap must have been a game against a non-British team.
The game would probably be listed here:
http://www.londonhearts.com/scotland/scotland.htm#sfl
But I'm not having much luck with it - maybe it's getting late!
Gadget
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:)
Just found that Scotland played the following games in 1929:
Wales
Netherlands
Germany
Norway
England
Norther Ireland
http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scotland_fixture_archive.cfm?page=462
I'm thinking that the cap would have been for the game against Germany - an International Challenge Match on 1st June at Grunewald Stadium in Berlin- hence GvI :-\
They drew 1 all :)
Oooops - got the year wrong :-[ :-[ :-[
Only the Home Nations in 1921 and he's not listed :-\
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This is odd - he's not listed as an international player at all on either of the sites that I've given above:
http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scotland_fixture_archive.cfm?page=462
http://www.londonhearts.com/scotland/sea/allres.html
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Could the `G' be Glasgow? Did they give caps for non-international matches?
I cannot seem to find him in either of links you gave me, but I also don't really know what I am looking at.
It is possible he played for Ireland. He was orphaned as an infant, and raised by a series of aunts and uncles in England, Scotland and Irelend - he bounced all over.
Could be Ireland v Glasgow???
What is the cap for? Was it a participation thing? Did the winners get one? What is the significance?
The birthdate in your book must be wrong because I have his birth registration on Jan 24, 1895.
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As I misread the year last night, I missed doing the sums correctly. In 1921 he would have been 16-18 (going by the two birth dates) . Whichever, it would have been unlikely that he would have played a full international for his country at that age.
I'm wondering if it was an inter-schools or some other event - Glasgow versus I ??
I recall that my great uncles's caps have the full name of the country on them.
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Caps were awarded to players who actually took part in the game.
As his career dates from before the introduction of substitutes, he would have played from the start of the game.
Bob.
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Here is a Scottish International cap:
http://www.scotlandforvisitors.co.uk/footballcap.jpg
Does it look like this?
Gadget
PS - Bob - he's not listed as having an International cap in my book - so I don't think the cap is an International one
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This site
http://internationalcaps.webs.com/apps/photos/
has lots of photos of international caps, the Scottish ones for the 1950's look very much like what you are describing, but they have an S, for Scotland.
Bob.
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I keep saying this:
He did not receive a full cap for his country. The book that I have would indicate it next to his name and it doesn't.
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I checked on this site
http://www.eu-football.info/
There is no record of William Bradley having been an international player for any country. Also, the list of matches for 1921 doesn't have any where a "G" is playing an "I"
Gadget, as we no longer get the warning to say there has been a further posting, I sent my reply before I saw yours.
Bob.
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Hi Bob :)
The lack of red notices is driving me mad at times - its like distant echoes ;D ;D ;D
I think it might be a schools cap - he would have been 16-18 and, although soon after WW1, not many of that age would have played for their country.
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Hi
If he was born in 1895 he would be 26 in 1921.
Does it say anywhere that the cap was awarded to William Bradley? and does it say it was for football?
Andy
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Ooops - my Maths are no better this morning ;D ;D ;D
All we know is that he played football both amateurly and professionally as stated and it looks as if he was playing for Cowdenbeath in 1821 and there is a cap which andarah assumes is for football.
However, there is no record of him being capped for any International football matches.
How's you football knowledge, andy?
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Hi Gadget
My football knowledge is not too bad. The G has me puzzled because whilst he was born in Glasgow, none of the clubs he played for are. In 1920-21 Cowdenbeath didn't play in the Scottish league but in the Central League. In 1921-22 they were in the Scottish second division.
Do you know if there is a list of professional footballers and the clubs they played for? It would help to confirm who he was playing for in the latter half of the 1920-21 season and the first half of the 1921-22 season.
Andy
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Do you know if there is a list of professional footballers and the clubs they played for? It would help to confirm who he was playing for in the latter half of the 1920-21 season and the first half of the 1921-22 season.
My book has a complete list for Football League first team players (see my old thread on the Occupations Board) and it shows that he didn't start playing for Barrow until 1922-23.
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Hi
In 1921 Pollok Juniors were playing in the Glasgow Junior League. Its possible that a league representative team played another league but was he playing for Pollok Juniors then is the question
Andy
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Andarah says that the cap has GvI on it - I wonder if that refers in some way to the Glasgow Junior League (say the I is really and L or something) or Glasgow JL played an Irish JL eleven.
Alternatively, and only an idea ~ Glasgow v Inverness ::)
Can't think of any other large places in Scotland beginning with I!
But why would they be capped?
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The cap looks very similar to one that was posted.
My father has it hanging on the wall at his house. I just called him and he said that it is solid black or dark navy blue hat, with silver braiding and silver writing. He doesn't know if the tassle is cord or metal, but it feels like metal, but it be cording that wasn't reserved well. It is very similar to the one posted, but there is nothing on the bill. The date is directly under the GvI on the front of the cap.
Yes, he would have been 26, he was married and my grandfather was born. So, I don't think it was high school.
My Dad said the date is 1920-21 (not 1921, like i thought) and he had always been told that it was Glasgow vs Ireland.
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Hi Andarah :)
The dark blue and silver sounds very like Scotland's colours
Junior League doesn't necessarily mean a schoolboy league. it could well be an International between those who played in the league below the top one - as I said
Glasgow JL played an Irish JL eleven.
Gadget
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Just a few suggestions, as Google can't provide the answers.
GvI, if it means Glasgow versus Ireland, is obviously not a full international match for which caps would have been awarded to Glasgow players. They MAY have been awarded to the Irish players, though - and, coincidentally enough, the Irish team played in blue during 1921. So, maybe he played for Ireland but, as it was not a full international, it hasn't been listed in Gadget's book.
1921/22 was the year of Irish partition, and security was a huge concern. A 1921 Irish cup match replay was moved from Dublin to Belfast purportedly for that very reason. Possibly - only possibly - the match in question was also moved to Scotland for security reasons. In which case (although if this were true, I'd have expected the cap to say IvG) the G may not mean anywhere in Scotland at all, but rather an international team beginning with G.
Just food for thought.
Mike
EDIT: A further thought. It's only an assumption that Scotland is involved in any way. How about Germany v Ireland with the match being played in Germany (would that have happened, I wonder, so soon after the war?) Of course, then we'd have the problem of the non-inclusion in Gadget's book all over again.
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IS there any directory for the junior league?
Interesting thoughts about Ireland. Like I said, he lived in Ireland, Scotland and England growing up, so I would think he had no real allegiance to any of them over another. He could definitely have played for Ireland and not Glasgow.
another thread to tug at...
Thank you all so much!
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Hi
or Glasgow JL played an Irish JL eleven.
This may be on the right track, the link below has refernce to a proposed Inter-League fixture with the Irish Junior League (it is towards the bottom just after a white highlighted section). Even though this relates to the late 1890's it does show a connection between the leagues.
http://benburbfc.blogspot.com/2009/01/bens-on-up-and-uppers.html
Maybe the best option is contacting the Pollok Football club (website link below). They may be able to confirm when he played for them, and indeed if he was selected in a League reprentative side. If they can't then they may know who to contact for information on the Glasgow Junior League.
http://www.pollokfc.co.uk/
Andy
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Hi Andarah
The standard of the clubs he played for doesn't equate to playing at anywhere near an international level. It is possible that if he was playing for Pollok FC in 1920-21 that he could have been selected in an Inter-League match between two junior leagues such as the Glasgow Junior League and the Irish Junior League if there was such a match. Your best bet would be to contact the club and see if they have any information on him.
http://www.pollokfc.co.uk/
Andy
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Just as an aside, I suspect that a "representative" game was not an "international" game, in the strict sense. I can remember, just after the war when the Football League played representative games with the SFL. That of course was WW2! I suppose one might say that if the FA was not involved, then that would be classed as a representative game and not an international.
Bill
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I got a response from Pollack and the man who answered me thinks that William played for them 1918-1921. He said that one of the history buffs would contact me and they would do what they can to tell me about the cap.
I think I am onto something!
Thank you all so much!
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another William Bradley? :D ...this one seems to be the "other' one with different birthdate...
http://www.answers.com/topic/william-bradley-footballer
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Hi JJ :)
That's the birthdate in my book but everything else in the biog relates to andarah's William - clubs, etc.
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I don't think that's him, but 2 of them?
He didn't stay with one team. He moved around.
I was told by QOS that he played midfield and Gadget's book says inside right. Not goal.
I would love for it to be him because it would give me a direction to go in for locating him growing up.
QOS has his birthdate as March 1, 1896, which is deifintely not his birthdate, but March 1, 1893 would only be a slip of one digit. I wonder if he lied about his age to play `under 21' or some such league like that. So, the birthdate would support this being him.
I have him being born in Glasgow, but he was gone from Glasgow very quickly with family since his parents were both dead, so....??? I have heard that he spent time in Darlington, England. That would lean towards someone considering him English.
Don't you ever wish you could transport back in time and spend an afternoon having a cup of tea with some of these people?
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Have you got his birth cert, andarah - there's a possible on Scotlands People for 1895, Glasgow but, because my book said 1st March 1893, I didn't investigate further
Also, did he die in Scotland and, if so, where?
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I have his birth and death extracts.
He was born Jan 24, 1895 in Glasgow and he died 16 Aug 1948 in Glasgow. From that, it would appear as though he stayed put! But, he didn't.
I also have his mother's death extract and she died March 16, 1895, so I know that there isn't a mistake on the birth - she wouldn't have been alive to have him.
However, she was living with the father prior to the baby. Maybe they lied on the birth to make sure they were married? They were married in Dec 24, 1894. A 21 month old child is hard to hide though.
After soccer he was pensioned by the football team/league to a whiskey warehouse (I know it was alcohol and I think it was whiskey). My Dad says it was common for football players to be `pensioned' into soft/easy jobs.
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Not sure about 'soft, easy jobs'. My Dad did his knees playing in the 1930s and then had to work as a coal miner until he retired in the late 1960s.
Again, another relative, Billy Meredith, ran a hotel/pub in Manchester but had very little money when he died in ?1958.
Gadget
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could it be a cap for playing a rep game for a regional or school team.
neil
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Thanks everyone for the guidance!
I just got an email back from Pollack, and they said he competed in an Irish League vs Glasgow League game on Dec 31, 1920 at Shawfield (Clyde). The score was 1-1. There's a photo of the team in the Daily Record the next day, so now I have to find the archives for that. It's great to have the actual history of the cap and possibly a photo/article from the game.
I wasn't expecting to get this far when I posted this thread. Thanks so much!!!!
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Here's the picture and caption from the newspaper. My great-grandfather is in the middle row, last player on the left.
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Glad you got the answer. I just love the picture on the right, from the referee, in his jacket, to the ball and their boots. Today's players would never have managed ;)
I remember playing on pitches looking like that, but later than 1920!!
Bob.
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Really good news on this :D
Gadget