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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: jasper2 on Friday 30 October 09 18:34 GMT (UK)
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hi , can anyone shed any light on my soldiers australian roots ? born arthur william nagle 1885 ish stirling east gippsland victoria, his father was thomas , who at the time of his sons death was living in tallangatta victoria ? , arthur also had a sister called margaret , he served and died in the first world war and was killed in action , I found a lot of information on arthur thru the austalian archives but would like to go back farther if possible many regards jasper2
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This is possibly Arthur's birth ...........
Arthur William NAGLE was born 1887 at HAUN
Father = Thomas Patrick NAGLE & Mother = Elizabeth Ann DANIEL
Ref = 3642
Thomas NAGLE and Elizth Ann DANIEL also had
William born in 1885 at GRAN
Ref = 10398
He died aged 1 day.
Ref = 5329
Dee :)
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Jasper, there's the birth of a Thomas Patrick NAGLE in MELBOURNE in 1851 to a William NAGLE and Bridget WOLFE.
Ref = 43909
Roman Catholic St Francis
Fiche = 587
I'm not sure if this is your Thomas Nagle however, as he appears to have married an Elizabeth Ann CLARK in 1884.
Ref = 4224
Elizabeth Ann Clark was born in London.
But the birth reference I found gives Arthur's mother as Elizabeth Ann DANIEL.
Dee :)
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I can't see any more children for Thomas and Elizabeth, however.
Perhaps getting a digital image of the 1887 birth certificate of Arthur William might throw some more light on the background of the family. :-\
Dee :)
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thankyou guys ! I havent got the foggiest which one is correct ! im in the uk ! all I know is that the daughter was margaret ! thankyou both sooo much ! jasper 2
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Jasper,
If you decide you want to order the birth certificate, then the cheapest way for Victoria is to order a digital image.
You can investigate it at
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/home
but I've just seen that they are upgrading the website today!
I'll have a look and see if I can discover anything about Margaret that might throw more light on the situation.
Dee
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Aha!
Margaret HARVEY aged 80 died at PARK in 1963
Father = Thomas NAGLE & Mother = Elizabeth DANIEL
Ref = 18791
Dee :)
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Margt NAGLE born GRAUB married Richd HARVEY in 1911.
Ref = 10725R
Dee :)
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PM on the way concerning children of the above couple, Jasper. :)
Dee
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oooooh brilliant guys !!!! thankyou !!! jasper 2
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Jasper, I've been trying to find the full names for the abbreviations of the places of birth etc.
PARK = Parkville or Parkdale, most likely Parkville.
But I can't find HAUN or GRAN, I'm afraid.
Maybe someone else will come to our rescue. :)
Dee
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I've been looking at Arthur William Nagle's war records, Jasper, and see that he had a wife Margaret and that his father was at one stage listed as his next of kin and was given as being at 13 Corsair St, Richmond.
That's where Margaret and Richard HARVEY are living in 1914. Richard is a labourer, Margaret Home Duties.
In 1919 & 1924 Margaret is at 22 Johnston St , Richmond North.
Richard Harvey is listed in 1919 but not in 1924.
1931 sees Margaret at 58 Appleton St, Richmond North.
1949 sees Margaret at 12 Gardner st, Richmond.
I haven't actually located her on the other electoral rolls available.
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I think Thomas NAGLE, labourer, is at 13 Little Oxford St, Collingwood in 1903. No sign of his wife with him.
By 1909 Thomas NAGLE, Labourer, is at 46 Stephenson St, Richmond South.
In 1919 & 1924 Thomas NAGLE, labourer, is listed at Vaughan St, Sunbury
Dee :D
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I've found the death of Elizabeth Ann NAGLE nee DANIEL
Elizth Ann NAGLE aged 35 died in 1887 at HAUNTED ST
Father = Thos DANL & Mother = Harriet
Ref = 13893
HAUNTED ST helps to explain the HAUN on Arthur's birthplace.
The transcriber obviously thought the DANL was a given name, not a family name, which made it hard to find. ;D ;D
No sign of Elizabeth Ann DANIEL'S birth in Victoria.
Dee :)
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Jasper, do you have a copy of the Will of Arthur William NAGLE. If not, you can see a digital image at
http://proarchives.imagineering.com.au/index_search.asp?searchid=54
Dee :)
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You can also see some information about the son of Margaret Harvey, nee Nagle, whose info I sent by PM, at
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/
Dee :)
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Haunted St is Haunted Stream in Gippsland. I recall reading the name amongst the surveys of my ancestor who was a mining surveyor based at Bairnsdale.
A little local history
http://www.heritage.vic.gov.au/admin/file/content2/.../HauntedStream.pdf
http://www.smh.com.au/news/victoria/omeo/2005/02/17/1108500206885.html
......Haunted Stream (35 km) is named after its connection with the murder of Ballarat Harry;
A little about the local cemetery
http://www.ozgenonline.com/aust_cemeteries/vic/eastgippsland/stirling.htm
I have read Arthur W's WW1 record. Quite odd that his sister Margaret waited until 1940 to try and collect his pay from WW1. ::) Arthur's wife Margaret M NAGLE was entitled to 20/- per fortnight from 28.4.1917 to 15.12.1932.
Wonder where Arthur married. I can't find anything on Freebdm. Wonder if he went to Ireland during his period AWOL in 1916. :-\
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I can't find anything about either Thomas Patrick Nagle or Elizabeth Ann Daniel before the birth of the children, either, Cando.
Nor can I find the death of Thomas. :-\
Dee
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Some more births to a Margaret NAGLE
NAGLE Elizabeth Ann
Father Unknown Mother Margaret NAGLE
At Richmond 1900 Reg#29311
NAGLE Richard Robert
Father Unknown Mother Margaret NAGLE
At Carlton 1903 Reg#8793
NAGLE Minnie
Father Not recorded Mother Margaret NAGLE
At Richmond 1907 Reg#5814
and two births post 1908 in the name of HARVEY with mother Margaret NAGLE.
You would need to sight Margaret's death certificate to see if these children were hers.
There are no NAGLE marriages with the above names but there are HARVEY marriages for an Elizabeth Ann and Minnie. Will post them if you think there is a possibility they are Margaret's children.
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I wonder if this is the birth of his son mentioned in the probate document? Arthur died intestate.
Births Dec 1916
NAGLE Arthur W Mother's maiden name BUTLER
Pancras 1b/97
and the mistranscribed and incomplete marriage details ::)
Marriages Mar 1916
BUTLER Margaret M
HAGLE
St. Martin 1a/1216
Will need to see the images for the Mar qtr but pretty sure it is Arthur W's marriage.
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Possibly father Thomas' death. Dee detailed the birth as a possibility in reply#5.
NAGLE Thomas
Father Nagle William Mother Bridget WOOLFE
At Northcote 80 years 1931 Reg# 15859
http://www.fcmp.com.au/
Fawkner Memorial Park advises that the location of the buried remains of the late Thomas NAGLE aged 86 are located at Roman Catholic Compartment G Grave 381. Service on 26 Dec 1931.
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I'm not totally sure about that Thomas Patrick Nagle, Cando.....because of the Clark marriage. I can't see any children born to a Nagle/Clark combination however.
I've searched to try to find a Daniel/Clark link, but haven't found one yet.
Dee
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A transcription of the birth certificate of Thomas Patrick NAGLE born 1851 can be obtained v ery cheaply from
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~mgfhs/dawncowleysbdm.htm
Could be worthwhile in the long run. :)
Dee
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Dee my thoughts are there is a strong possibility it is the right Thomas. Of course the death cert would be helpful. I find many mistranscriptions on the Vic bdm's...very frustrating at times. Also he is buried alone. I have trawled the NAGLE bdm's....a bit NAGLE'd out at the moment.
Agree we need to find the DANIEL/CLARK connection...if there is one :)
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Please forgive me if I have duplicated this
but from the information on the AIf site
http://www.aif.adfa.edu.au:8080/index.html
show this and I quote
cemetery records Son of Thomas NAGLE; husband of Margaret M. NAGLE, 38 Gulistan Cottages, Rathmines, Dublin, Ireland
Jenn
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Thanks to Cando, we've proved that Thomas Patrick NAGLE born 1851 to William Nagle & Bridget WOOLFE is the father of your Arthur William NAGLE, Jasper.
Hopefully Cando will let you know about that. :D :D :D
We also think that Elizabeth Ann Clark and Elizabeth Ann Daniel are one and the same person, and that she was a widow when she married Thomas Patrick NAGLE.
Dee :)
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http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1602449?searchTerm=Nagle
Newspaper listing of A. W.Nagle's death in WW1
Jenn
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This could well be the Elizabeth Daniel/ Clark link.........
Children born to David CLARK & Elizabeth Ann DANIEL
Rose Mary born 1876 at GRAR
Ref = 9758
Thomas James born 1881 at GRAN
Ref = 3182
Harriett Elizabeth born 1879 at GRAN
Ref = 3123
Margaret born 1882 at GRAN
Ref = 23495
Dee :)
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The plot about Elizabeth Ann DANIEL thickens.....she appears to have married before she married David CLARK......
Elizabeth Ann DANIEL married William Henry MANUEL in 1871
Ref = 3596
Matthew MANUEL parents William MANUEL and Elizabeth Ann DANIEL was born in 1874 in GRANT
Ref = 9212
Surname: Elizabeth Ann MANUEL born LONDON married David CLARK born TORONTO in 1875.
Ref = 4071
Mathew MANUEL aged 8 died in 1883 at GRANT
Father = William MANUEL and Mother = Elizabeth Ann Clarke DANIEL
Ref = 1772
Dee ;D
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The deaths of her two husbands......
William MANUELL aged 40 parents unknown died in 1874
Ref = 92
David CLARKE aged 40 parents unknown died in BDALE in 1 884
Ref = 61
Now that's taken some unravelling..... ;D ;D
Dee ;)
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Here's the death of Thomas Patrick NAGLE'S mother......
Bridget NAGLE born London aged 35 died in 1856.
Father = Michael Woolfe & Mother unknown.
Ref = 2024
Dee :)
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Well Done Dee
a lot of time and unravelling that is for sure
kind thoughts Jenn
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Thanks Jenn. It's been a challenge....and it needed Cando's input with mine to finally put it all together. :D :D
(I won't mention what I haven't got done today though. ;D ;D ;D )
Dee
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William MANUELL aged 40 parents unknown died in 1874
Ref = 92
Inquest Index
MANUEL William at Sale 1874 Ref#122
Drowned. Notes...found drowned.
So Margaret is David CLARK's daughter not Thomas NAGLE's - no wonder we couldn't find her birth. ::)
Cando
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thankyou once again for all the help guys ! (cando thanks for the death by the way ) you lot have been like little elves and pixies ! never would have sorted this out from over here ! jasper 2
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Some information on Elizabeth DANIEL and family.
Marriages Mar 1852
DANIEL Thomas Bethnal Green 1c/ 360
NEWITT Harriet Bethnal Green 1c/ 360
Births Mar 1853
DANIEL Elizabeth Ann Bethnal Green 1c/281
Arrival in Melbourne Vic of Elizabeth Anne with mother Harriett.
DANIEL Elizabeth Anne 3 years Arrived Jan 1857 on the APPLETON Fiche 11 Page 305
DANIEL Harriet 25 years Arrived Jan 1857 on the APPLETON Book 11 Page 305
I can't locate Thomas arriving before Harriett and dau Elizabeth. There is this electoral roll listing -
1856 District Gippsland
DANIEL Thomas Mewburn Park - fencer Wages One hundred pounds.
Deaths -
DANIEL Harriett
Father Newitt Mathew Mother Elizabeth DAVIS
47 years Born England 1878 Reg#5391
Possibly Thomas's death.
DANIEL Thomas
Parents unknown
79 years at Bairnsdale Hospital 1905 Ref#11310
I noticed this marriage on the indexes for Elizabeth Ann's brother. His birth does not appear on the indexes.
DANIEL Thomas Newitt born Maffra
GUY Sarah Ann
1882 Reg#3171
Death
DANIEL Thomas Newitt
Father Daniel Thomas Mother Harriet NEWITT
At Ferntree Gully 70 years 1928 Reg#10018
Austalian Electoral Roll
1924
DANIEL Thomas Newitt, Deptford Road, Lucknow Sleeper-hewer
DANIEL Sarah Ann, Deptford Road, Lucknow Home duties
Cando
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Following on from Cando's post
Banns were called for the marriage of Thomas DANIEL and Harriet NEWITT on Dec 21st and Dec 28th 1851 and Jan 4th 1852 at St John, Bethnal Green.
The marriage took place 17th January 1852 at the same place. Both were given as single, of full age of 14 York St, and Thomas was a Mariner. :)
Fathers = John DANIEL, weaver, and Matthew NEWITT, labourer.
Dee :)
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Elizabeth Ann DANIEL was born Feb 12th 1853,
and baptised 29th May 1853 at St Jude, Bethnal Green.
Parents = Thomas & Harriet DANIEL, he's a mariner.
Dee :)
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I've found the baptism of a John Thomas DANIEL, parents John and Ann, with John being a weaver. This is a possibility for Thomas DANIEL, father of Elizabeth Ann.
John Thomas DANIEL was baptised 25th January 1830 at St Leonard's Shoreditch.
If this is indeed Thomas DANIEL, he had a number off siblings, including
Mary Ann baptised 26th November 1827
William baptised 11th May 1834
Alfred baptised 6th June 1936.
Dee :)
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I now have the transcript for the birth of Thomas Patrick NAGLE. Unfortunately, it's a baptism record and as such, doesn't have the information that actual birth records have from a few years later.
Reg no = 43909
Born 11th March 1851 St Francis Church, Melbourne
Father = William NAGLE
Mother = Briget WOOLFE
Baptised 14th April 1851 in the Parish of Bourke, Roman Catholic Rites, Co. Bourke, Melbourne.
Notes from the transcriber = Very early record, so limited information.
Dee
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This is my first attempt at posting so excuse errors. I am very interested in the Nagle family and in particular Arthur W Nagle whom if we have it correct married Margaret M Butler sister to my Great Grandmother Catherine. We know that they married in St Martin London in 1916 and that they had a son Arthur W but after that she returned to Corloughan Kilkenny for the remainder of her lifeand we know nothing more of her husband or son. If we have the Same Arthur W as you then this would help in solving the puzzle.
Tp
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Welcome to Rootschat Tp. :)
Jasper2 hasn't been on here since June last year, but hopefully he will have got an email regarding your post and will check back.
If you ordered a copy of the 1916 marriage certificate of Arthur W Nagle and Margaret Butler, it should show you the father of Arthur W Nagle.
If his father was given as Thomas, then this is indeed relevant to your research.
Dee :)
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Many thanks for your reply I think we are on the right track and will keep working on it and posting Ta
Tp
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Thomas NAGLE and Elizth Ann DANIEL also had
William born in 1885 at GRAN
Ref = 10398
He died aged 1 day.
Ref = 5329
Hi,
'Gran' was most likely Granya which is near Tallangatta in Vic, if the family were at Granya they were most likely gold miners.
mum mum
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This is my first attempt at posting so excuse errors. I am very interested in the Nagle family and in particular Arthur W Nagle whom if we have it correct married Margaret M Butler sister to my Great Grandmother Catherine. We know that they married in St Martin London in 1916 and that they had a son Arthur W but after that she returned to Corloughan Kilkenny for the remainder of her lifeand we know nothing more of her husband or son. If we have the Same Arthur W as you then this would help in solving the puzzle.
Tp
Hi!!!
I know I'm replying many years after this is posted, but Catherine is also my great grandmother. I'm currently doing my family tree and looking into the nagles and seen this comment - am I ok to message you?
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Hello Shayes and welcome to Rootschat.
You need to make a couple more posts to be able to access the personal message system on this board.
Jasper2 last signed-in in 2010.