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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Radnorshire => Wales => Radnorshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: k.whigham on Friday 11 March 05 13:22 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone supply further info on John Lloyd (farmer) and wife Hannah Dyke who had a daughter Margaret at Cwmbrith, Cefnllys in 1842;
or on Thomas Evans (labourer) and wife Elizabeth Morris who had a daughter Elizabeth at Wainadam (?), Nantmel in 1841.
Thanks, Kate
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Hi Kate,
Elizabeth Morris is in my direct Morris line. I'm afraid I don't know anything about Thomas Evans yet. I have a lot of Morris info I can share, if interested.
Seattle
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Hi again Kate,
Here's some info on John Lloyd from the 1841 Census for Cefnllys.
LLOYD, John, 40, Farmer, Y, Upper Cwmbreeth, f6/p6
LLOYD, Thomas, 35, Y, Upper Cwmbreeth, f6/p6
LLOYD, John, 15, Y, Upper Cwmbreeth, f6/p6
LLOYD, Edward, 15, Y, Upper Cwmbreeth, f6/p6
LLOYD, Thomas, 12, Y, Upper Cwmbreeth, f6/p6
LLOYD, Benjamin, 3, Y, Upper Cwmbreeth, f6/p6
LLOYD, Isaiah, 1, Y, Upper Cwmbreeth, f6/p6
LLOYD, Ann, 15, Y, Upper Cwmbreeth, f6/p6
LLOYD, Hanah, 10, Y, Upper Cwmbreeth, f7/p7
LLOYD, Mary, 8, Y, Upper Cwmbreeth, f7/p7
LLOYD, Eliza, 6, Y, Upper Cwmbreeth, f7/p7
LLOYD, Elizabeth, 5, Y, Upper Cwmbreeth, f7/p7
VAUGHAN, Jane, 15, F.S., Y, Upper Cwmbreeth, f7/p7
1851 Census:
(This one only gives Name, Age & birthplace)
Ann 23 Cefnllys folio 224
Benjamin 13 " "
Edmund 3 " "
Edward 25 " "
Elizabeth 14 " "
Hannah 20 " "
Isaya 11 " "
James 7 " "
John 27 Llandegley "
John 52 Llanfihangel "
Margaret 9 Cefnllys "
Mary 18 " "
Naomi 3 " "
Thomas 22 " "
I can't be sure this is all the same family, because the names are listed in alphabetical order, rather than in family groups. Hopefully, you'll be able to sort them out?
Do you have them in 1881? If not, I can give that to you, too.
Cheers,
Seattle
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Hi Seattle
All these Lloyds are certainly confusing! My g-g-grandmother was Margaret Lloyd, who would be the 9 year old in the 1851 census. But there seems to be no record of the mother Hannah? (What does the "Y" denote?) I have traced Margaret's descendants to the present day, and I knew of Naomi, but found nothing more on John and Hannah on any census.
I'm now not sure about Thomas Evans and Elizabeth Morris being my ancestors. My g-g-grandmother Elizabeth Williams (nee Evans) had a father Thomas, but according to census info was born at St Harmon, not Nantmel, though this could of course be an error. Do you know if Thomas and Elizabeth ever lived at Bwlchgwyn farm, St Harmon? Elizabeth Evans was living there in 1865 when she married William Williams, and the farm is still in my family. I would be interested in finding out who lived there and when it first appears on any records.
Any info you have on any of this would be of interest.
Thanks, Kate
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(What does the "Y" denote?)
Y means born in the county.
N, born outside the county.
Regards
kmo
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Hi Kate
1861 Census:
St. Harmon
EVANS Jonah B, h, m, 55, BD Vicar of St Harmon, BRE Llywel, Bwlchgwyn, /f30/p3
EVANS Eliza, w, m, 53, Clergyman's wife, CMN Pengarreg, Bwlchgwyn, /f30/p3
WILLIAMS Sarah, ml, w, 75, Fund holder, CGN Llanvairlydyn?, Bwlchgwyn, /f30/p3
LEWIS Sarah, sv, u, 17, House servant, RAD St Harmons, Bwlchgwyn, /f30/p3
1881 Census:
Dwelling: Bwlchgwyn
Census Place: (St Harmon) Clas & Rhiwrhaid, Radnor, Wales
Source: FHL Film 1342316 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 5475 Folio 100 Page 15
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
William WILLIAMS M 40 M St Harmon, Radnorshire, Wales
Rel: Head
Occ: Farmer 150 Acres
Elizath. WILLIAMS M 39 F St Harmon, Radnorshire, Wales
Rel: Wife
Occ: Farmers Wife
Elizath. WILLIAMS U 15 F St Harmon, Radnorshire, Wales
Rel: Daug
Occ: Scholar
Maurice WILLIAMS U 13 M St Harmon, Radnorshire, Wales
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Mary Ann WILLIAMS U 11 F St Harmon, Radnorshire, Wales
Rel: Daug
Occ: Scholar
William WILLIAMS U 9 M St Harmon, Radnorshire, Wales
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Naomi WILLIAMS U 7 F St Harmon, Radnorshire, Wales
Rel: Daug
Occ: Scholar
Thomas WILLIAMS U 5 M St Harmon, Radnorshire, Wales
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Clara WILLIAMS U 3 F St Harmon, Radnorshire, Wales
Rel: Daug
James Walter WILLIAMS U 1 M St Harmon, Radnorshire, Wales
Rel: Son
David FRANCIS U 17 M St Harmon, Radnorshire, Wales
Rel: Serv
Occ: Farm Servant (Indoor)
Dwelling: Bwlchgwyn (II)
Census Place: (St Harmon) Clas & Rhiwrhaid, Radnor, Wales
Source: FHL Film 1342316 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 5475 Folio 100 Page 15
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
John DAVIES M 43 M St Harmon, Radnorshire, Wales
Rel: Head
Occ: Plate Layer
Hannah DAVIES M 22 F Sirhowy, Monmouth, England
Rel: Wife
Occ: Plate Layers Wife
John Walter DAVIES 1 m M St Harmon, Radnorshire, Wales
Rel: Son
Jonathan HOPE U 15 M St Harmon, Radnorshire, Wales
Rel: Serv
Occ: Farm Servant (Indoor)
I couldn't find Bwlchgwyn on the 1841 Census. There was a Bwlch....
Will look further and get back to you soon.
Seatte
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Hi Kate,
I've just found this entry in the 1841 Census for Nantmel.
EVANS, Thomas, 45, farmer, No, Upper Bwlch, f8/p9
EVANS, Charlotte, 35, Y, Upper Bwlch, f8/p9
EVANS, Elizabeth, 75, independent, No, Upper Bwlch, f8/p9
EVANS, Thomas, 20, Y, Upper Bwlch, f8/p9
EVANS, John, 15, Y, Upper Bwlch, f8/p9
EVANS, Sarah, 14, No, Upper Bwlch, f8/p9
EVANS, Theophilus, 9, Y, Upper Bwlch, f8/p9
EVANS, Daniel, 5, No, Upper Bwlch, f8/p9
EVANS, Eliakim, 3, No, Upper Bwlch, f8/p9
EVANS, Ann, 2, Y, Upper Bwlch, f8/p9
EVANS, Naomi, 1, Y, Upper Bwlch, f8/p9
EVANS, Hannah, 25, female servant, No, Upper Bwlch, f8/p9
According to my info, Thomas Evans and Elizabeth Morris married 11 Jun 1841, which would have been just after this census was taken.
Does anyone know what Bwlchgwyn means? Could the son Thomas (and Elizabeth) have named their farm after Upper Bwlch? Just a thought, as I don't see Bwlchgwyn farm in 1841 in St. Harmon.
Will get back to you again.
Seattle
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Hi Kate,
I've checked the 1861 Census again and found the following:
BRUNT Edward, h, m, 62, Fmr290a, RAD Abbeycwmhir, Bwlchgwyn, /f30/p4
BRUNT Elizabeth, w, m, 69, Fmr's wife, RAD St Harmon, Bwlchgwyn, /f30/p4
EVANS Elizabeth, sv, u, 19, Dairymaid, RAD Nantmel, Bwlchgwyn, /f30/p4
EVANS John, sv, u, 16, Carter, RAD Llandewy, Bwlchgwyn, /f30/p4
PRICE Thomas, sv, u, 11, Shepherd, GLA, Bwlchgwyn, /f30/p4
The Jonah Evans I sent earlier, was also there in 1861. It's a bit confusing because Jonah is in folio 30, page 4, followed by this entry:
FOXTON Frederic J, h, m, 54, CofE clergyman &c, GLS Twining?, Glyngwy, /f30/p3,
FOXTON Catherine D, w, m, 53, , HUN Fletton, Glyngwy, /f30/p3,
PAGE Mary Ann, sv, u, 42, House servant, HEF Thinbottom, Glyngwy, /f30/p3,
DEAKIN Harriet, sv, u, 22, House servant, WOR Stoke Prior, Glyngwy, /f30/p3,
MEREDITH John, h, m, 44, Lab, RAD Nantmel, Glyngwy Lodge, /f30/p3
MEREDITH Eliza, w, m, 40, Lab's wife, RAD Llandewy, Glyngwy Lodge, /f30/p3
HAMER Elizabeth, nc, u, 12, Carpenter's daughter, RAD Llanannan, Glyngwy Lodge, /f30/p3
Then, the entry for Edward Blunt appears on folio 30, page 4.
I suppose it's possible that there were three dwellings on Bwlchgwyn farm? Anyway, according to this census, Elizabeth (1842) was born in Nantmel, not St. Harmon. So, it's still possible that she was the daughter of Thomas and Elizabeth (Morris).
By 1861, I think Thomas and Elizabeth were in Abbey-cwm-hir:
EVANS Thomas, h, m, 48, Fmr 36a, RAD Nantmel, Llanarchdwrion, /f10/p20
EVANS Elizabeth, w, m, 43, Fmr's wife, RAD Nantmel, Llanarchdwrion, /f10/p20
EVANS Edward, s, u, 11, Fmr's son, RAD Abbeycwmhir, Llanarchdwrion, /f10/p20
EVANS Thomas, s, u, 9, Fmr's son, RAD Abbeycwmhir, Llanarchdwrion, /f10/p20
EVANS Jonathan, s, u, 6, Fmr's son, RAD Abbeycwmhir, Llanarchdwrion, /f10/p20
EVANS Morgan, s, u, 4, Fmr's son, RAD Abbeycwmhir, Llanarchdwrion, /f10/p20
EVANS Mary, d, u, 5m, Fmr's daughter, RAD Abbeycwmhir, Llanarchdwrion, /f10/p20
Do these first names run in your Evans line?
I have a feeling that Bwlchgwyn came into your family through William Williams. If you'll notice, there was a Sarah Williams living with Jonah and Eliza Evans in 1861. As Elizabeth was working as dairymaid for them, maybe that's how she met William?
Eureka! Look what I just found in 1841 in St Harmon:
WILLIAMS, Edward, 53, farmer, Y, Bulchgwin, f12/p18
WILLIAMS, Mary, 36, No, Bulchgwin, f12/p18
WILLIAMS, Martha, 18, Y, Bulchgwin, f12/p18
WILLIAMS, Mary, 17, Y, Bulchgwin, f12/p18
WILLIAMS, Jane, 12, Y, Bulchgwin, f12/p18
WILLIAMS, Elizabeth, 10, Y, Bulchgwin, f12/p18
WILLIAMS, Margret, 5, Y, Bulchgwin, f12/p18
Are these William's parents, do you know? This all gets very complicated, doesn't it?!!
Anyway, see what you think about all this and let me know.
Sharon in Seattle
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Hi Sharon & Kate, Have just discovered the above conversation & thought I'd let you know that I have much information on the Thomas & Elizabeth you are discussing. You've probably moved on from the discussion but although you had a few 'red herrings' in your chat you were 'on the right track' Thomas was at Caemerial with his parents just 4 days before the wedding & the Thomas at Upper Bwlch was just there to confuse you! Thomas & Elizabeth's daughter Elizabeth was born at Wainadam 1.nov.1841 & died 30.11.1884 aged 43. Let me know if you are still looking for info as I have a good tree for the Evans side & detail of Thomas' 2nd marriage, his death & the will that caused friction for 100 years!
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Hi Kayzee
It's always good to find more info about the past. Elizabeth Evans b.1841 was my g-g-grandmother. Do you know anything of her husband William Williams? I was trying to find out when Bwlchgwyn farm came into my family - I assume it's through the Williams side.
I don't have much on Thomas Evans apart from his parents' names, so anything else would be of interest.
Many thanks, Kate
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Sorry I don't know much at all about William Williams but his father was Maurice Williams & he was at Cochydwst, Llanvihangel Heligan in 1841 with his wife & children. Maurice/Morris was born about 1806 so the Edward who Sharon says was at Bwlchgwyn could have been an Uncle of William I suppose, although williams is an extremely common name. It might be worth checking to see if Edward left a will. However I would have thought that if Edward had owned Bwlchgwyn he would probably have left it to one of his own children & if he had left a farm to a nephew, that nephew would probably have named a son Edward! So I vote that it is very unlikely. If the farm is still in the family perhaps you could consult the deeds. I know that in many areas deeds are being replaced by simple peices of paper & as a result the history of these farms is being lost, so if you have any contact with the current owners I would suggest a viewing asap! Our deeds were very interesting giving details of change of ownership & prices paid. I would think this would give you a very clear picture.
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Hi - Bwlchgwyn is still in the family with a distant cousin, I believe. I'm in Scotland so checking on deeds, wills etc is a bit of a problem. May have to make another trip south.
Details of "the Thomas Evans affair" would be interesting - gossip always is, even if it's nearly 200 years old!!
Best wishes, Kate
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Shame about the deeds. Funnily enough I'm in Wales & need to visit Scotland whilst your in Scotland & need to visit Wales, how mad is that? Have you visited this area at all during your research? How exactly do you descend from Elizabeth?
When Thomas' wife Elizabeth died he was 71 years old but 3 years later he married Ann Vaughan who was then 46 years ( his eldest daughter your Elizabeth was just 4 years younger) whilst he of course was now 74! Anyway Thomas was a wealthy farmer & built a brand new village shop but fell off the scaffolding during the construction & died 4 weeks later of a compound fracture of the tibia, blood poisoning & bed sores
Although he left his land to his 7 surviving children (your Elizabeth had died the previous year), the will stated that they had to pay his new widow £10 per annum for the rest of her life and that she should have the rent from 2 farms and also 2 cows, a colt & all other effects belonging to him. As she was a similar age to his children, the £10 per annum was infact a lifetime for them as although I only have the death dates for 5 of the surviving children, Ann outlived 4 of them!
Needless to say when I visited my grandparents almost 100 years later, they hated me buying sweets at the local shop (which was still run by Ann's descendants) but I didn't know why until I started researching my family history. Sadly by this time my grandparents were dead so I had no chance to ask them about it at all.
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Hi Thanks for the interesting insight into the family's past - some grudges really do last!
Elizabeth Evans married William Williams in 1865, had a daughter Elizabeth in 1866; she married John Probert of Disserth in 1887 and their third child Clara Elizabeth was my grandmother. She married Pryse Evans of St Harmon in 1914. Elizabeth Williams, Clara Probert and my father were all born at Bwlchgwyn. We spent many holidays as children with grandparents in Kerry and visited Bwlchgwyn many times. We returned three years ago to scatter my father's ashes there. I haven't done any research in Wales - it's all been on the net, but I think I'm now approaching the limit of what can been done that way.
Kate
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How far back have you got with William Williams? Although I have not done any research into the Williams family myself, I do have a tree that was sent to me (during my Evans research some years ago) which has great detail of the Williams family. I would be happy to send you details but would have to contact the person who drew it up to ask her permission. However if you already have detail of William's maternal grandparents there is probably little of interest in it for you.
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All I know of William Williams is that his parents were Maurice/Morris Williams and Naomi Price. Any other info would be most welcome, as I thought I had reached a dead end.
Thanks, Kate
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Hello,
I've traced my family back to 1410 and the famil you reference in Uper bwlch farm is were my Great grandfather Theophilus lived. I have mass of information that will be of interest to you I'm sure.
Taffysboy
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Hi Taffysboy
Any info you have would be gratefully received. My email is *
Thanks, Kathryn
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