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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Inverness => Topic started by: dhalaughlin on Friday 11 December 09 21:16 GMT (UK)
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I am looking for the 1881/1891 residence described as "Culduthel Cottage, at Oldtown, Culduthel."
I am new to the site and have been the beneficiary of very generous and successful help on my first inquiry. Thanks to you all. You know who you are. My first reactions out of sheer exuberant joy have been very effusive. From here forward I will try to be more to the point and brief. However, please know that my brevity does not diminish my gratefulness and appreciation in the least.
Through this site I was able to discover one of my holy grails in the person of our family's legendary "Great Grandpa of Inverness." His name was John SCOTT, born Kinclaven 1824, died Inverness 1896 and buried at Tomnahurich Cemetery together with his grandaughter Roberta Gunn SCOTT and her husband Alexander MUNROE (Ironmonger and Cycle Agent).
In the 1881 census he is described as a 57 year old widower living at "Culduthel Cottage" and residing with 1 son, 2 daughters and a servant. His profession was "Farmer of 230 acres of arable employing 7 men and 1 girl (unreadable) at Oldtown Culduthel."
I would like to identify his "Culduthel Cottage" and his 230 acre farm if possible, if it still exists, and with the grace of someone on this site, get a photo of it.
What I know so far is this: John SCOTT farmed the land and lived there for at least 15 years, probably longer. His son John and/or grandchildren may have continued to farm it after his death. There remains today a "Culduthel Farm" area and also an "Oldtown of Leys Farm" area.
I have also determined that a possible/likely? candidate for my ancestor's cottage is what is now known as "Oldtown Cottage" at Oldtown of Leys, Culduthel IV2 6AE. This cottage is currently occupied by Cunningham Wines, 01463 243524. It is a freestanding cottage right next to and contiguous with Oldtown of Leys Farm. Google Earth has a great satellite image and maps the coordinates as 57 26'23.00 N, 4 13'17.93 W. Are there publicly accessible property registers where the history of deeds can be determined easily? If not owned would the same be available for occupancy or for tenant farmer?
I live in the States and I am not familiar with the area. It is also currently not possible for me to investigate further. Hence my query here to some good souls.
It is important to note that the 1881 census says the cottage had 9 windows (presumably for tax purposes). The 1891 census says the cottage had 10 windows.
Perhaps there are other cottages in the area that could be candidates? I am not qualified to know. It does seem that "Oldtown of Leys" has particularly limited 19th century candidates and I assume the same is true of Culduthel at large.
Many thanks in advance for any assistance or guidance.
David
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Hi David
Sorry, not answering your specific question here but wondered whether you had seen/viewed John Scott's last will & testament. It is available to dowload from Scotlands People - 9 pages:
John Scott - 06/08/1897 - FARMER, OLDTOWN OF CULDUTHEL, INVERNESS, D. 18/08/1896 AT OLDTOWN OF CULDUTHEL, TESTATE @ INVERNESS SHERIFF COURT - Ref. SC29/44/31
I thought it might give you a better idea of location and place.
The address for John Scott in the 1891 census is given as Culduthel Rd Oldtown Farm. This looks to be the general area on www.old-maps.co.uk/indexmappage2.aspx and then add co-ordinates: 266700 and 841500 (from an 1874 map of Inverness area).
Monica :)
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Thanks a mil Monica for taking interest in this for me!
I did pull the will from Scotland's People. It was very interesting to have this document. He was certainly a tenant farmer of the 230 acres called "Farm of Oldtown of Culduthel".
The 1881 census calls his residence "Culduthel Cottage". From an old map I see that there is a domicile named as such, but slightly north of Oldtown and on the west side of Culduthel Road next to the former Sawmill and Culduthel School. But John is described as being a farmer of land at "Oldtown of Culduthel" which is south but nearby. The cottage is described as having 9 windows.
In the 1891 census his residence is described as "Oldtown Farm". The cottage is described as having 10 windows. Was there a previous or current mis-count or did John install a new window or is this a different residence? So it's quite confusing. In 1881 was he living just north of the farm in "Culduthel Cottage" and made a short commute to the farm? Prior to 1891 did he move to a new residence at Oldtown?
Or could the residence situated at Oldtown also have been described as "Culduthel Cottage" even though the map indicates a "Culduthel Cottage" just north of Oldtown? Both locations ARE effectively within the area called Culduthel. Perhaps John always lived at a "Culduthel Cottage (2)" at Oldtown?
So there are 2 possible candidates and I don't know which or if both are the one. Today there is an "Oldtown Cottage" at Oldtown of Leys occupied by Cunningham Wines right where I would expect you would want to manage the farm from. From the Google Earth satellite images I can also see there are several smaller oldish looking houses just off Culduthel Road and just north of Oldtown of Leys that could also be candidates for the home described on the old map as "Culduthel Cottage".
Obviously I am torturing my logic over this. That's why I think I need boots or eyes on the ground unless someone has some further special insight.
Good news is, if the cottage is still there we are VERY close to finding it. This is not a needle in a haystack.
Thanks so much for your help.
David
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Hi David
Might be worthwhile you contacting local archivist services such as those indicated here http://guide.visitscotland.com/vs/guide/5,en,SCH1/objectId,INF50670Svs,curr,GBP,season,at1,selectedEntry,home/home.html or,
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/archon/searches/locresult_details.asp?LR=232
From the little I have seen on line, there looks to have been a lot of developement and urbanisation of the general area in recent years. You need local reference material I think to find your way here and be certain you are on the right track (and property!).
Monica :)
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Hello Dhalaughlin
The next time I'm in Inverness, I will search along Culduthel Road, for you, for Culduthel Cottage.
There are still a few very old houses, along Culduthel Road, and I've actually been in the one known as the oldest farmhouse in the area, but don't recall if it was "Culduthel Cottage".
Up until only two years ago, Culduthel Farm was still being farmed and cattle grazing could be viewed from Culduthel Road!
There are still many open, field areas, although the area is develloping fast.
Danchaslyn
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Hi
This afternoon I called at what I estimate to be the dwelling on the map called Culduthel Cottage (ie next to what was Culduthel Schoolhouse). There was no sign to suggest it was Culduthel Cottage and it is now called something else. I spoke to a pleasant young man who probably suspected I was trying to sell double glazing but he heard me out. He knew nothing about the house but said he would speak to his parents when they came home later. I left him a copy of all of this thread to date to provide them with some sort of context. I also left my telephone number in the hope that they might have something to tell me. Having said that we have to recognise that not everyone gets excited by this sort of research and I may hear nothing more.
Imber
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IMBER, likewise, maybe we passed each other?!
For the past three days, I've driven up and down Culduthel Road, and haven't seen "Culduthel Cottage", but did find the original farmhouse in Culduthel Road, but the occupants weren't at home.
Have my family on the look out to and also about to ask the "Postie"?
Cheers
Danchaslyn
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Hi Danchaslyn
I guess we may have passed a few times. The curtains will be twitching in douce Culduthel Road! Actually the further out you go the harder it becomes to visualise everything given all the recent and ongoing developments. When you refer to "the original farmhouse" where exactly is that? Is it somewhere near the IRA? I was beyond where the Southern Distributor Road (SRD) cuts Culduthel Road. Years ago it would have been pretty thinly populated where the road starts to climb uphill and I guess terms like Culduthel and Oldtown covered quite wide areas. There was no phone call last night but then the live football was on TV. I live in hope.
Imber
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Hi IMBER
What a puzzle! Ha ha about the twitching curtains.... the oldest farmhouse is on the right hand side, (with your back to town of Inverness) travelling up Culduthel Rd, between the small convenience store and the larger mini supermarket, on the small roundabout.
Look out for very tall conifers in the garden (again from the age of the house!), then it is below road level, almost obliterated from sight, but what a surprise within.
Of course its of sandstone, and double storey, and you will be amazed to see the original huge farm wing on the back!
So, as its so old, and within the very old, original area of Culduthel Road, could it be the one, especially as it currently has not name.
Cheers
Danchaslyn
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Ran out of space...... my son suggested that possibly its on the remains of Culduthel Farm itself, as you know, bordering the southern distributor road, up past the newish Gaelic School, on the left, on your way down to the road to Dores?
The main white, large Culduthel Farmhouse up there, was in MacKenzie ownership, at least until a few years ago, not sure about now?
I looked out for the Postie, but he wasn't around while I was visiting. I wondered if someone at Strothers Lane postal sorting office might be willing to help?
There's not to far to look, as Scaniport Estates lands soon take over.
Cheers
Danchaslyn
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I had a phone call. The house owner told me that the house used to be called Culduthel Cottage but the name had been changed by previous owners. She had been there about twenty years. The cottage had been built in 1790. She thought nine windows sounded about right. Apparently they get callers from time to time who were orphans who were accommodated there in the early twentieth century. Danchaslyn, I think I know the site of the farmhouse you refer to. I have a copy of the OS map for Inverness for 1867 but I cannot see it on there, although that part of the town is nearly off the map. The National Library of Scotland have a great site which combines the new and old maps. It takes a bit of getting used to but it's well worth it:
http://geo.nls.uk/os6inch/google.html
I spent two hours in the Highland Council Archives yesterday to try and pin this down. I found a few bits but nothing decisive and I'm going to have another go at it tomorrow.
Imber
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YES! ;D IMBER, well done!
Were you able to take any pics and will you please post them here?
So, as I don't know which building was the old Culduthel Schoolhouse, where is this house which in all likelihood IS the former "Culduthel Cottage"?
How amazing about the orphans!
I've been promising myself to visit the NEW archives, so who knows, maybe one day next week!
Thank you so much for the very useful link....
Cheers
Danchaslyn
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Thank you IMBER for an amazing treat your link to the ancient OS Maps.
If you look in Inverness, along Culduthel Road, on the ancient OS Map, and have Lower Slackbuie "underneath", with Balloan to the right and above you have the "red oblong", the original farmhouse is about to the left of the red oblong.
I see where it says "Sch" is this the old Culduthel School? I know its roughly in the vicinity of the current IRA, but I know that the original IRA was at the site of the current campus of the Inverness College in The Crown.
Cheers
Danchaslyn
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Yes, I see the building you mean. Are you looking on the coloured map? That seems to date from the 1920s. What you need to do is zoom in further and wait until the black and white map appears. I think that's about 1875. That building doesn't seem to be there. Yes, the "sch" you refer to is the Culduthel Schoolhouse but if you look at the b/w map it is spelled out, as is Culduthel Cottage. I think what you need to do is imagine yourself driving along passing the bowling place on the left and the IRA on the right until you come to the roundabout on the Southern Distributor Road. Go right across the roundabout on to the Inverarnie Road. That is still Culduthel Road. The old schoolhouse and Culduthel Cottage are the first buildings on the right, although construction of the new roundabout has shunted them into a little cul de sac.
I didn't take any photos because the cottage is completely screened by large bushes and I couldn't just wander in and start snapping away. However, the answer is to use Google Streetview. Go on to the UK site, type in SL2 6AE and when the aerial view opens up head north up the B861 until you arrive at that roundabout I mentioned. Then pick up the little orange man from the left of the map and drag him to the cul de sac. Once there you use the white arrows to proceed along the road etc. You can use the controls to move him around through 360. The cottage is the one with the yellow Highland Council lorry parked outside in the street. There's another parked in the schoolhouse which is still used by the Council to house various community services etc.
Imber
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Oh I know exactly where you mean, IMBER, "above" the roundabout and now made into a little cul de sac. I'm back home, further north, but next week will take a close look and see if I can get a pic, ..... I'll chance it no one is home!
I have google streetview but as I've well exceeded my wireless limit, its refusing to load......
Thank you so much to for the tip on the better use of the ancient OS Maps! That is so kind of you to pass it on.
I'm assuming then that Culduthel Cottage, IS on what used to be Culduthel Farm, as its bordering what remains of the original farm.
Cheers
Danchaslyn
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Hi again
I went to the archives - and found it closes on Fridays. However, the family history search room was open so I had a nose around there. When I was in the Archives the other day I looked at the Valuation Rolls and found John Scott listed as a "Contractor" whose lease covered 230 acres at Oldtown, Milton (of Culduthel?) and Upper Slackbuie and an unnamed Farm House. All the land in that part of Inverness was owned by the Baillie family of Dochgarroch. Anyway, I had to do something while I was there again today so I took a look at the microfiche for the 1881 census. I found John at Culduthel Cottage. More importantly the next entry was the schoolhouse. That to me is sufficient proof that the cottage I went to the other day is the one John Scott stayed in. Looking further at the census I found that the dwellings at Oldtown were occupied by farm servants, shepherds and the like.
Imber
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IMBER, that is all so positive! (Excepting of course the Archives being closed on a Friday, who would have thought?!).
The Baillie lands certainly extended far and wide! Currently I've always meant to go to one of the Dochgarroch House's Open Garden Days, have you been?
What a great result, IMBER, well done! Am sure dhalaughin will be very happy.
Cheers
Danchaslyn
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Hello Imber & Danchaslyn,
I am so sorry I have been out of touch with the site for a while. I had no idea the 2 of you were doing such diligent research on my behalf. You have absolutely confirmed for me my conviction that genuine altruism exists! Thank you thank you thank you!
This is just my initial knee jerk response to both of you. I am going to thoroughly read your comments again and review my own research materials. I will post more information again very soon. It's been a while since I considered and studied all this. As I recall there were 2 possible candidates based on the 1881 & 1891 census. He may even have lived in 2 differnet homes over that period. Do you know anything about the cottage where Cunningham Wines is located? I am pretty sure it is either that one or the one you have visited and spoken about in your text near the old schoolhouse and sawmill which may be gone. This is sketchy to me just now and I may confuse you so let me study again and I will revert coherently.
You are really great people. I so much wish I could be there to help you and enjoy the discovery along with you. Impressive the way development wipes out history so quickly.
Thanks also to Imber for the alert message. Without that I may have neglected to look at Invernesshire when I checked in today after many weeks away.
All the best,
David
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Hi again
I went to the archives - and found it closes on Fridays. However, the family history search room was open so I had a nose around there. When I was in the Archives the other day I looked at the Valuation Rolls and found John Scott listed as a "Contractor" whose lease covered 230 acres at Oldtown, Milton (of Culduthel?) and Upper Slackbuie and an unnamed Farm House. All the land in that part of Inverness was owned by the Baillie family of Dochgarroch. Anyway, I had to do something while I was there again today so I took a look at the microfiche for the 1881 census. I found John at Culduthel Cottage. More importantly the next entry was the schoolhouse. That to me is sufficient proof that the cottage I went to the other day is the one John Scott stayed in. Looking further at the census I found that the dwellings at Oldtown were occupied by farm servants, shepherds and the like.
Imber
Hi Danchaslyn,
This is my follow up post to yesterday. I only read page 2 after posting those comments. That is some fantastic research you have done on my behalf. Again, thank you and well done indeed! Understanding the excitement that comes from the positive result of dogged research I am happy for you for the satisfaction you too must have gained. Certainly I am happy for the result.
I agree entirely with your conclusion as to the location as the 1881 census puts the location next to the schoolhouse.
My only unresolved issue now is whether he still resided at this location in 1891. That census locates him at address "Oldtown Farm". Instead of 9 windows the home is described as having 10 windows. I realize this may be one and the same home. Then again perhaps not. Perhaps he moved closer to the actual farm and Oldtown into another cottage. Or perhaps he remained in the old home and added a window, or perhaps the window count in 1881 was not accurate. As I recall from previous research through google Earth I believe the place where Cunningham Wines is now located in Oldtown is today described as "Oldtown Cottage" or some such thing. I have just wondered whether this may also have been inhabited by John Scott in 1891? However, my guess is he stayed put in the original Culduthel Cottage next to the schoolhouse. But if possible I would like to know categorically. The only way to know I guess is to understand the context of the 1891 location to the previous, next, and surrounding entries in the 1891 census. I can't tell anything from the copy I have. So I am asking if I could beg your further generosity the next time you visit the archives to have a look and see if you can determine either that he moved to the Oldtown farm proper or he stayed put at the original Culduthel Cottage.
To support the "stayed put" theory his 1896 death register states his location of death as "Oldtown, Culduthel, Inverness". His estate documents also put his address as "Oldtown of Culduthel, Inverness". It just seems a contradiction from the way things are placed on the map. John leased "Oldtown Farm" (230 acres), Culduthel and Oldtown are in different locales on the map. As a farmer would he want to commute that distance to the Oldtown farm on a daily basis? Perhaps it's not that far, or perhaps the 230 acres was actually pretty close to Culduthel.
I am attaching some macro images of the surroundings from the old maps. Sorry I don't recall what years but they are old enough. Mostly they are self-explanatory and you and Imber will already be familiar with them. In Culduthel I believe we are talking about the cottage that is shaped like a letter "T" in the macro image next to the schoolhouse.
The macro image of Oldtown seems to show larger buildings and perhaps does not indicate a cottage or home. These images are just to help you confirm your conclusions or arrive at new ones.
It appears we are very close to closing the chapter on this investigation. I will look at the google earth street view instructions you indicated. Somehow once we have tied the ribbon I am hopeful to get a picture of the cottage. If we have an address and an inhabitant if necessary I would be happy to write or contact them for permission for someone to take a few snapshots.
I will post the Oldtown macro separately.
I am extremely grateful for the time and energy both of you have put into this investigation.
Warm Regards,
David ;D
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Here is the Oldtown macro. David
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Yes, I see the building you mean. Are you looking on the coloured map? That seems to date from the 1920s. What you need to do is zoom in further and wait until the black and white map appears. I think that's about 1875. That building doesn't seem to be there. Yes, the "sch" you refer to is the Culduthel Schoolhouse but if you look at the b/w map it is spelled out, as is Culduthel Cottage. I think what you need to do is imagine yourself driving along passing the bowling place on the left and the IRA on the right until you come to the roundabout on the Southern Distributor Road. Go right across the roundabout on to the Inverarnie Road. That is still Culduthel Road. The old schoolhouse and Culduthel Cottage are the first buildings on the right, although construction of the new roundabout has shunted them into a little cul de sac.
I didn't take any photos because the cottage is completely screened by large bushes and I couldn't just wander in and start snapping away. However, the answer is to use Google Streetview. Go on to the UK site, type in SL2 6AE and when the aerial view opens up head north up the B861 until you arrive at that roundabout I mentioned. Then pick up the little orange man from the left of the map and drag him to the cul de sac. Once there you use the white arrows to proceed along the road etc. You can use the controls to move him around through 360. The cottage is the one with the yellow Highland Council lorry parked outside in the street. There's another parked in the schoolhouse which is still used by the Council to house various community services etc.
Imber
Hi Imber,
Forgive my exuberance on all this. I didn't mean to leave you out in my thanks for your efforts. You obviously did more than your part in dogged detective work too.
I had a look at the google earth street view. Got right to it. Brilliant! I see what you mean about being overgrown. Very bushy! On the old map (1875?) there is also a rectangular cottage behind this 2 story home that is also close to the school house. Do you think we can categorically rule that one out? It could just as easily be the next entry on the registry after the school house. But I would guess if John Scott controlled 230 acres he would live in the larger of the homes and others would be occupied by farm help etc. Or perhaps the rectangular building isn't even a cottage. Could it be a barn? Anyway, would appreciate your opinion. Thank you so much!
Oh, by the way. John the "contractor" had worked as a railroad contractor before going into farming. I think this means he was building the railways. His son John also became a successful railroad contractor in Stirling. He was in that business his whole life. I also found his beautiful sandstone home on google street view right next to the rail road station in Stirling! His sons also seemed to have joined the rail road development business first in Scotland and then on to South Africa and the Congo. Almost all died or disappeared in Africa. I am beginning my search for their residue there. Wonder if I will find anyone?
All the very best!
;D
David
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Imber & Danchaslyn,
I must be going dotty!
Obviously I am getting the 2 of you mixed up. In my hurry to reply coherently I got tied up in a knot!
Now I have it sorted out. You have both been teammates on this and I got mixed up on who did what.
I think I should have been asking Imber to have a look at the archives next time. So the long message to Danchaslyn is actually meant for Imber. So sorry to confuse you both! And thanks again to BOTH!
::)
David
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Imber & Danchaslyn,
Sorry for so many posts. Yes, I am obsessing, and yes I am asking too much! I am sure you are partners in crime with me in that sense. I hope it doesn't all confuse. But today is Sunday and I have time to respond.
There might be something to my notion about John Scott living in a different home in 1891, and thereafter until his death in 1896.
From the 1891 census John Scott is schedule number 116 and listed as living at "Oldtown Farm". The next entry is 117 (unreadable MacDonald) living at "Ashie Cottage". If you go to Google Earth and enter "Old Town of Leys", "Ashie Cottage" or "Oldtown Cottage" followed by Culduthel you will see that all occupy the same location. This leads me to believe that the possibility is strong that John Scott later lived in a cottage at Oldtown after having occupied Culduthel Cottage in 1891.
Here is the info on Cunningham Wines:
CUNNINGHAM WINES
OLDTOWN COTTAGE, OLDTOWN OF
LEYS
IV2 6AE INVERNESS, HIGHLAND REGION
Phone: 01463 243524
Fax: +44(0)870 132 0309
I am going to check the old maps for Ashie Cottage (Oldtown) and see what I find.
David
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Meant to say 1881 in the last sentence of previous email. Couldn't find Ashie Cottage on any maps but the NLS map site is fantastic!
And aha! After studying the 1891 census again I see that schedule number 115 just before John's 116 reads "school". It is occupied by Jessie(?) MacPherson (40) a "teacher in a public school". But the more I study it the more confused I get. I need help! It is hard for me with my American perspective to divine the context of these addresses and people. But I think I'm leaning back to the "stayed put" theory...until tomorrow... Am I close to clarity?
David
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Hi
You're certainly making up for lost time! I'm not sure where to start. The easy bits first perhaps. The Inverness water supply from Loch Ashie was opened in 1877 and so I tentatively suggest Ashie Cottage, which housed the Water Superintendent or whatever (the main man!) can be dated from about then. That would explain why you can't see it on the oldest NLS map. It's still there, about 250 metres west of the Oldtown group of dwellings. From the aerial photo you can see a large square earthworks next to Ashie Cottage. That belongs or belonged to Scottish Water and I imagine received water from Loch Ashie. It is currently being infilled. I suppose I had better mention that the water supply to Inverness was designed and built by a John Scott. Is all this too much of a coincidence? You mentioned he had connections with railways? Is this another coincidence?:
http://www.hi-arts.co.uk/Default.aspx.LocID-hianewqkz.RefLocID-hiacg5005.Lang-EN.htm
As I know nothing at all about this chap I may be getting totally carried away but you will no doubt be better placed to decide whether there is any connection with YOUR John Scott.
If you wish to contact the current owner of Culduthel Cottage then the address is:
Mrs Catriona Murray
Weigela
198 Culduthel Road
INVERNESS
IV2 6AE
More later,
Imber
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I should have said that I asked Mrs Murray if it would be OK to give you her details and she said she would be quite happy to hear from you.
Imber
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Some further tentative thoughts. While I think that the 1881 situation is now resolved because of the proximity of the schoolhouse I don't think the same argument can be used for 1891. Yes, the schoolhouse is still there at schedule number 115 and, yes, Oldtown Farm is there at 116 but if you look at 114 it's Culduthel Cottage occupied by William Cooper of the Highland RAILWAY. Just a coincidence? Leaving that aside and accepting there are not two Culduthel Cottages it seems that John has moved to Oldtown, although it is no distance at all. Take a look at the following using the keys to navigate, zoom etc:
http://wam.highland.gov.uk/wam/propertyDetails.do?action=showMap&lpiKeyValue=ITNC5XIHLI699
This shows the current position at Oldtown. My conclusion is that most of these buildings are "modern". I think John was in the largest house, the current Oldtown of Leys House, although this has been hugely extended to a very high standard and I think is the home of possibly the wealthiest person in Inverness. I think Oldtown Cottage is an old building but I would put money on it being a line of farmer workers homes knocked into one. It's seems a long narrowish structure and it is quite common in Scotland to see such modifications. Take a trip through Oldtown using streetview, panning left and right to look at each building. (Note the water company sign en route). Eventually you will find the road barred by a gate and if you look down at the lower land you will see Ashie Cottage and the earthworks of the reservoir or whatever.
Finally there is an entry in the following regarding the Findhorn Railway etc which may prove interesting, or not:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:-
Imber
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Hi
That last link is wrong. Try this one:
http://www.steamindex.com/locotype/highland.htm
Imber
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Hi Imber,
That is really great. You give me a really high level of confidence in your diligent research and conclusions. There is no substitute for smart experienced local boots on the ground. I will go with you're judgement, realizing we may never truly conclusively know for sure where he resided in 1891. I have a sense that John knew all of these local people from the census and many may have been on his dole either directly or indirectly.
Perhaps it is also not surprising the new Culduthel Cottage tenant worked for the Railway, as formerly did John.
John seems to have never remarried after his wife died back near Coupar Angus. All his children were born there.
Being a widower, a boss of 230 acres and influential perhaps he floated around the cottages a bit. Perhaps he even subleased some of the cottages or provided them to workers, friends and family.
I did notice that other "Culduthel Cottage" entry and just didn't know what to make of it. Hence my continued confusion.
I believe he was a fairly high level railway contractor. His son John is described as a "railway contractor's manager" and was obviously very prosperous. I think old John sort of retired from the railway to raise sheep in Inverness because he liked it there and wanted a new life in his older age not travelling all the time. It would not be surprising to believe he had the capability to design and manage the construction of the waterworks after so much experience excavating and laying track all over the place through in hospitable terrain.
Here's an excerpt from a MacGillvray family page. I also reccall coming across some other original text somewhere some time ago where our John was cited in the planning stage of the Water Works. I didn't know what to make of it at the time:
"In the 1881 census, she and her family were living at Ashie Cottage in Culduthel, Inverness. From this document we learn that her husband Ewen was manager of the water works at Loch Ashie, which had opened only a few years previously in 1877, after being designed by John Scott as Inverness' first chlorinated public water supply. Also in the house were Christina's three daughters, Catherine, Flora and baby Jane, only 10 months old. Ewen's 23 year old brother, Donald MacDonald, a telegraph clerk, was also in the house on census night, but it is not known if he was living in their house at the time (Cen: 1881/098/21/19)."
Anyway, I really don't know how to thank you enough for your interest, other than likewise be equally generous to other seekers, which I will certainly be as events dictate.
Very Best Regards,
David
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Imber,
Google Earthing around last night I also came across the nice large "cottage" at Oldtown - that is the beautiful 2 story sandstone building, but I had no idea what I was looking at. I would suggest that the "preponderance of evidence" as they like to say strongly suggests that this home indeed is where John Scott resided in 1891. Everything you have said makes total sense. After Culduthel Cottage this home would be a logical step and location for John, and all the addresses we have for him from 1891-1896 say "Oldtown Farm, Culduthel" and not "Culduthel Cottage". It appears they are indeed distinct addressees.
It also somehow makes total sense that his home is situated near the water works and Ashie Cottage if indeed he had a big role in its design and construction. Add to this that he was farming the land. Lastly, perhaps he was working with the railroad, won the water works contract, and decided he liked Inverness well enough to stay and lease the farmland. Somehow this seems like a realistic story of how he may have ended up in Inverness after being widowed in Coupar Angus. In our family lore he is referred to as Grandpa of Inverness. Everyone else hailed from Coupar Angus and it was somehow quite special that he lived and died in Inverness. I think he was well regarded and well thought of by the family.
The Google street view of the sandstone home was obviously taken on a brilliant day. Nice black bimmer sitting in the circular driveway! Could have used the image in an ad slick. I'm sure the home looks a lot nicer than when John occupied it as a farmer! Isn't street view just amazing?
If you are ever prowling about the area I would love to get a photo.
Are there any historical documents on the water works that you know of?
Seems like you may have paid an additional visit to the archives. If so many thanks for that too. And anyway thanks again for everything!
My feeling is this is "case closed", don't you agree?
Cheers!
David
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Hi
Yes, I think case closed. My wife is getting a bit fed up with "John Scott"! But I've learned a lot myself and I'll keep my eyes open and let you know if anything else crops up. I don't know what there is on the water system but I'll bear that in the mind and any possible photo opportunities if they arise. If he was involved with railways up here then he might feature in some of the many books on the subject, but which railway, which book! The possibility he was a bit of an artist intrigues me. If I'm in the museum I'll enquire about those two paintings, although I get the impression they know little about them. Yes, Streetview has its critics but in this sort of situation it is just incredible, if a bit spooky.
Imber
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Imber,
Thanks for the PM. I'll need to see now how to contact perhaps my cousin?
My sincere apologies to your spouse! I fully understand. Let her know her husband has been a very Good Samaritan.
I seem to have missed something about the artist and his paintings??? Didn't see it in the dialogue?? Can you clarify?
However, it would not be surprising that he was an artist. His granddaughters were all accomplished artists and we still have some paintings by auntie Mabs in the family. His GOW grandaughters were all in the very first wave of female graduates from St. Andrews. I find that many engineers (and I presume he was a kind of lay engineer, perhaps even professionally trained) are also quite artistic.
You may also like to know that John Scott was one of the 3 Holy Grails of my research (still working the other 2). Not long ago we knew nothing of him, even his family name. He was just known to us as Grandpa of Inverness. I really appreciate that you have done so much to help paint a better picture of him for us. He's buried right up at the very top of Tomnahurich. You could probably even see Oldtown from there.
Cheers!
David
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I think you must have missed the link in Reply 24?
Imber
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Oh Wow! Thanks. Yes, I missed that. Our John is almost certainly the artist. He would have been 45 in 1869.
He really appears to have been a very energetic, industrious and talented man. Same with the son and the granddaughters.
Next trip to Inverness, whenever that is, should be a very fun and interesting one.
Best,
David
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Hello David and IMBER
My sincere apologies, but my planned excursion to Culduthel and Milton of Leys, Oldtown, on Sunday, a round 150ml trip, did not materialise.
I've watched in awe as IMBER has has so nimbly and ever so competently navigated this very interesting family saga.
The "find" of the two paintings in Inverness Museum & Art Gallery is a triumph!
Grandpa John Scott of Inverness, so evidently was a wonderful man.
Good luck to you David in your future searches. And, IMBER, well done.
Cheers
Danchaslyn
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Hear! Hear!
Yes, awesome!
;D
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Hello David
As IMBER will vouch, just to stir your "pot" a little more........ we have several Gow family members in our area!
How are you getting on with the "Gow" side of your family history?!
Cheers
Danchaslyn ;)
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There are registers of tenancies in the Archive Centre at the Bught address which I see you have already been given. I was able to check recently on the past occupancy of a building I own on Ness Bank.
Culduthel Cottage is clearly shown on maps on the old maps website but it is difficult to relate the position to anything on the ground today. I live about a five minute walk from the location and can't say that I recognise the name but, then again, I've never looked.
If you can identify location more precisely I would be happy to take a picture for you. From the position on the old maps the cottage would appear to be between what is now the Leys roundabout and the road out to Lower Slackbuie but I can't see anything there on Google Earth. There's been a lot of road building/realignment in that area so it may have been a casualty.
Good luck
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Hello Anysdogsbody
Is the location you mention the same as the road which goes up to Invernarnie?
How interesting that old tenancies can be checked at Bught Park.....what a treasure trove, can hardly wait to visit.
Cheers
Danchaslyn
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Reading through this thread a bit more fully I think I am just confirming what you already know.
Looking at the first series Ordnance Survey maps Culduthel Cottage is clearly shown a little to the SSE of the school building. I took a few minutes to go and look this afternoon.The school still exists and I would guess from the style that it was built later than Culduthel Cottage. From the scale of the maps Culduthel Cottage is only about 25-30 yards from the school and in that position is the house you have been told about i.e. Weigelia, 198 Culduthel Road.
At first glance the house looks fairly modern but a closer look reveals a very old cottage as the core building and there has been some extension work over the years. I really don't think that there is much doubt about the identity of the house and it's good to have learned something I didn't know about Inverness.
With it being in private ownership it's a bit difficult to take pictures but perhaps the owners would oblige if you made contact with them.
On the subject of registers of tenancies, I'm not sure how extensive those are but I was certainly lucky with my research. I was actually looking for something alse and came across it; that's how it goes sometimes.
Kind regards and good luck with your further researches.
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PS It is the road to Inverarnie or, at least, it used to be. That section of Culduthel Road is now a cul de sac following recent road realignment.
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Thank you Danchaslyn and Anydogsbody for taking interest and weighing in further on this story. This has certainly been another clear success story for RootsChat. It is nice to have even further confirmation of John Scott's 1881 residence. I will contact the owner by mail in hopes of getting a photo. I Google Earth zoomed in on the cul de sac neighborhood again near the roundabout. Culduthel Cottage still appears as a "T" shaped residence just as it did on the old (1875?) map. There's no doubt about this being the one and at least the footprint, roofline and exterior walls appear to be in the same position they were in 1875.
Danchaslyn, I will follow up on Orr's as time allows, but probably on a new thread. I am pretty deep into it. My Orr's so far have been clustered around Kettins and surrounds near Perthshire. I'm well into the 18th century. The Gow's are my maternal grandmother's family. I also PM'd you.
Cheers!
David
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Hi all,
I know you have finished this one but I just came across it. I lived on Balloan Farm in the mid-1960s and went to Culduthel Primary School. I had friends at both Culduthel and Lower Slackbuie Farms. One of my friends lived in one of the houses that we called Culduthel Cottages which are next to the School. Obviously the single had become plural by that time.
regards
Bob
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Hi David,
Just stumbled across this one so in a good position to fill in a number of gaps for you on the family side. John Scott of Oldtown was my great-great-grandfather. I still have in my possession a hand-engraved whisky goblet presented to him by one William Mowat of Thurso in 1877, with, of course, railway scenes. He was the chief railway engineer for the building of the railway up to Inverness - there were photos of one of my Mum's cousin's at the ceremony for the 100th anniversary of the completion.
My great-grandfather was John Scott of Stirling - there is a family memorial in the graveyard next to Stirling Castle that gives details of where all the children ended up. My grandfather was William (Bill). His elder brother John had gone out to Rhodesia in with BSAC Police in 1897 and died of blackwater fever soon after (He is buried at the foot of Old Fort Hartley). Grandpa went out to the Boer War with the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders in 1900 and stayed on to join the Scottish Horse for the latter phases. His brother Charlie followed soon after and joined Lovat's Scouts. After the war, they stayed on and were joined by Pat, Walter and the father, and they continued with building railways in the Cape Province, before going into farming in the Ugie area. Uncle Pat died in 1905 and is buried in Ugie. Grandpa signed up for the First World War with the Scottish Horse, which was then merged into the Black Watch, serving at Gallipoli, Salonika (where he received the MC and was twice mentioned in dispatches) and the Western Front. Uncle Walter also joined up and was seriously injured on the Somme with the machine-gunners. He never really recovered, but did well up Kenya way (not the Congo) but passed away from after-effects of war wounds in the 1930s. He is buried on the banks of one of the Great Lakes. One son remained in Scotland (will need to confirm the name) and the daughter Poppy(?) married into the Wotherspoon family.
Grandpa died in 1968 but told my mother stories of going up to visit his grandfather John in Inverness as a young boy. I understand the old man was on his own by then and appreciated the visits from his grandson.
(BTW, with regards to one of your other posts on this one, John Scott's mother's maiden name was Menzies.)
Best regards
Iain
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Hi Iain!
Now I just stumble across YOUR message. I hadn't checked messages until today December 29, 2012!!!
I sent you a PM.
Thanks for your summary!
David
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Hi David
Iain's Private Message service (PMs) is not activated until he has posted a couple of times here on the main boards. He should get an email notification of your recent post.
Iain, welcome to RootsChat :)
Monica
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Have just found your "story" and note that it is complete. I am the owner of the property in Inverness that John Scott lived in ie Oldtown of Leys House. If you want any more info \ photos ,please get in touch. The correspondence has been very interesting!
Anne
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Hi Anne
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Incredible that one property has attracted such interest!
Monica
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Have just found your "story" and note that it is complete. I am the owner of the property in Inverness that John Scott lived in ie Oldtown of Leys House. If you want any more info \ photos ,please get in touch. The correspondence has been very interesting!
Anne
Hi Anne
What a small world! Remember Denis from coaching kids at Inverness Harriers? I am Imber. Trust you are keeping well. This was a really enjoyable thread as are most on this fantastic forum.
Regards
Denis
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Hello Denis
It is a small world! Never thought I would know "Imber"! I,m new to this -not even sure how I stumbled on this John Scott story.
Anne
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Have just found your "story" and note that it is complete. I am the owner of the property in Inverness that John Scott lived in ie Oldtown of Leys House. If you want any more info \ photos ,please get in touch. The correspondence has been very interesting!
Anne
Hi Anne,
Very nice of you to reply to the posts. Sorry it has taken me so long to reply. Since all was I thought "completed" I haven't checked back in a while. As we all know life has a tendency to take over from our hobbies.
Denis was extremely helpful and generous with me and with his time (and a bit of curiosity) to help us unravel the story of my gg grandfather John Scott. Almost caused him a divorce! ;-) No, really, he is a true gentleman and a scholar and I hope to meet him one day. Altruism exists! In our family lore John Scott was only known as Grandpa of Inverness. Almost nothing else was known of him. With the help of others (they know who they are) this multi-year investigation has unraveled the mysteries surrounding him and now perhaps we know more about him than of most others of his era. If I can ever get back to Inverness I will be sure to buy at least a nice dinner and a few wee drams for all. Should be fun!
If you ever get about Tomnahurich and you are curious, John Scott's grave site is at the very top somewhere. I have not been to it but I have photos and I know the exact plot and the detailed directions.
Your home is absolutely beautiful and you must enjoy it very much. Of course we would love for you to share whatever you wish with us. I will try to share a PM with you but I don't know if you are set up for that yet or not.
Again, thank you for your kindness in weighing in and responding. I am sure we will be in touch soon.
David
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Only recently found this site and these threads whilst investigating John Scott whilst on holiday. My great grandmother is Roberta Scott, daughter of John Scott of Stirling, son of John Scott of Inverness.
If any of the original posters are still active on this forum, then I would be happy to exchange histories.
Heather.