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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: mum mum on Thursday 17 December 09 09:47 GMT (UK)
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Hi
My GG grandmother Jane Wood, born Swan River WA married William Holmes in Sydney 1853.
She died in Granya Victoria in 1919, 95 YO as Jane Clarke, her death cert says that she married Henry or Harry Clarke in Adelong at age 45, William Holmes had died in 1876.
The children that I can't find are listed on the death cert as Mary Holmes,65 YO, Sarah Clarke, 46 YO, Henry Clarke, 43 YO and Joseph Clarke whom I have found, but he called himself Holmes.
All the others I have managed to trace, but I cant find any trace of the marriage to Henry Clarke or his death. He is not the Henry Clarke who died in 1910, already bought that one.
Anyone got any ideas?
mum mum
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Hi mum mum,
Not finding much at the moment
Just so I've got this clear in my head :D
Jane Holmes married Henry/Harry Clarke at the age of 45 years.
She died 1919 age 95, gives birth c1824, so marriage c1869
William Holmes had died in 1876.
Raylen
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I am also very puzzled as Jane E aged 95 years, died in 1919 ie b. c1824
Death in Victoria
CLARKE Jane Elizabeth
Father Unknown Mother Unknown WOOD
95 years at Granya 1919 REg#17417
and you write according to her death certificate the following children where born -
Mary HOLMES 65 years born c1854 - Jane aged 30 years
Sarah CLARKE 46 years born c1873 - Jane aged 49 years
Harry CLARKE 43 years born c1876 - Jane aged 52 years
Joseph CLARKE ? years born ? ?
Surely there is an error with Jane's age at time of death ::)
Had Jane left William HOLMES before his death in 1875 - as Sarah CLARKE was born c1873 and Henry CLARKE c1876.
Who was the informant on the death certificate?
Looking at the NSW bdm's
V1853741 39C/1853
HOLMES William
WOOD Jane E
MF = St Lawrence's Church of England, Sydney
Do you have this parish record/cert?
There are numerous births to a William and Jane E HOLMES but you would have these.
Death
6547/1875
HOLMES William
Age 45 years Died Gundagai
District Gundagai
I also wonder if the children Sarah, Harry and Joseph may have been her grandchildren and raised by her as her own ie possible illegitimate children of one of her daughters, as Joseph used the name HOLMES.
Cando
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Just found in a quick internet search now:
someone referring to "Jane Elizabeth Wood => Jane Clarke, Holmes nee Wood"
who states Jane was born in 1837 in Swan River WA.
That fits your other details & would make her c.82 in 1919 & fit in a little better with the maths Cando showed.
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Some notes I've jotted down so far, better share now before this gets too out of control :*)
The children that I can't find are listed on the death cert as Mary Holmes,65 YO, Sarah Clarke, 46 YO, Henry Clarke, 43 YO and Joseph Clarke whom I have found, but he called himself Holmes.
Now have found an online tree which could help answering part of your question:
Mary HOLMES = b. 1854 [Tumut, NSW]
Joseph HOLMES = b. 24 Dec 1876 [Adaminaby NSW], d. 1963 [Batlow NSW]
They also list a "Harry HOLMES born 1876 in Adaminaby"; Joseph & Harry being the last of the children.
Twins born after their father's death? Who both took on the surname of their stepfather?
Sarah is the only one not accounted for -- was she born later biological dau. of Harry CLARKE? Or even step-dau of Jane?
I cant find any trace of the marriage to Henry Clarke or his death.
In order to pinpoint when Jane & Harry might have married, this is the summary I can figure out,
using that online tree I mentioned (which includes 2 certs: Jane's 1st marriage, no ages on it + William Holmes death cert),
along with NSW BDM index & the information so far on this thread:
(Note #1: You might have to check or verify some references, given some info was from an online tree)
(Note #2: (Jane's age in square brackets at the beginning of each line))
[c. 0] 1837 - Jane Elizabeth WOOD born [Swan Hill WA]
[c.16] 1853 - (27th Dec) marries William HOLMES age c. 23 [Cumberland NSW]
* [c.17] 1854 - + Mary HOLMES [Tumut NSW]
[c.17] 1854 - + John HOLMES [Tumut NSW] (d.1874)
[c.22] 1859 - + William HOLMES [Tumut NSW] (d.1955)
[c.24] 1861 - + Elizabeth HOLMES [Tumut NSW]
[c.28] 1865 - + Edward "Ned" HOLMES [Adelong NSW]
[c.30] 1867 - + Ellen HOLMES [12 May 1867, Adelong NSW] - (m.TAYLOR) d. 21 Aug 1954 [Petersham NSW]
[c.33] 1870 - + Robert HOLMES [Tumut or Gundagai NSW]
[c.36] 1873 - + James HOLMES [Tumut or Gundagai NSW]
* [c.36] c.1873? - + Sarah CLARKE
[c.38] 1875 - (22 Oct) William HOLMES dies [Gundagai NSW] "5 Sons, 3 daus living"
* [c.39] 1876 - + Joseph HOLMES/CLARKE b. 24 Dec 1876 [Adaminaby NSW], d. 1963 [Batlow NSW]
* [c.39] 1876 - + Harry HOLMES/CLARKE [Adaminaby NSW]
[c.82] 1919 - (4 Dec) Jane Elizabeth CLARKE nee WOOD earlier HOLMES dies [Granya VIC]
age 95 "spent 8yrs in WA, 78yrs NSW, 9yrs in Victoria"
- this is where the 1824 birthyear came from
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[cont'd]
So, here is the (possible) picture I have from that info:
In late 1875 William HOLMES age 45 is married with 8 kids.
William contracts pneumonia & is taken to Gundagai Hospital. He dies Oct 22 1875.
Wife Jane is left with the massive task of caring for 8 children.
She then has at least 3 more, two said to be born the next year in 1876.
A little maths though -
If the birthdate of child Joseph HOLMES, for example, is correct (24 Dec 1876),
someone else (Harry?) must be the biological father?
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I would suggest that it is preferable to link the online tree unless of course it is a private one to which you have access or only available on a subscription based website.
Cando
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subscription based unfortunately :'(
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Thanks,
I have linked up with the online tree, I also have private tree on there which I have shared with the others tree owners. I spoke to one on the phone last Sunday and she hasn't been able to pin down the marriage or the missing children either.
Yes I think that there is some discrepancy in Jane's age at death, I am starting to think that the Clarke children may not have been his.
I wil go back and check for any Holmes born with father unknown, hadnt actually thought of that.
The three who were supposedly Clarke's on the death cert have an estimated birth year from their age at her death.
The informant on the death cert was Jane's son in law, her daughter was still alive and well at the time so I guess she provided names and ages but there could have been some guesswork involved.
mum mum
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Phew, excellent re: the tree! :D
Sorry for detailing the kids you knew about, just wanted to make a bit clearer where Jane was at (geographically and otherwise) once William had died, in hopes of narrowing down a 2nd marriage date & place.
Hope this is not stating the obvious, but you mentioned you "found Joseph", does this mean have you managed to sight his birth cert?
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Hi Lin
Joseph is on the Ancestry tree, I can't get a reply from the tree owner who put his actual date of birth so I don't know where she has got that info. i presume he was her Grandfather so they know his birthday.
I have had a search on NSW BDM for possible illegitimate births, Mary and Elizabeth would be they only two possibilities [based on their age] and nothing shows up.
I have searched NSW for marriages and deaths for Mary Holmes of William and Jane.
Also searched for Sarah Holmes or Clarke, Henry or Harry Holmes or Clarke not having any luck.
The other children were all born arund Tumut/ Adelong so I have contacted the Family History group there to see if they can find anything. Maybe I need to put some letters into local papers looking for descendants.
i will be off line for most of the evening after about 6.30 as I have to work tonight but will get back to this over the weekend.
mum mum
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Great idea Mum Mum re: contacting the local family history group! Do hope you have some luck with that avenue.
In the meantime: some notes about Joseph John HOLMES that I've found --
(pieces to the puzzle in case)
Not sure whether you have seen the private Ancestry 'tree'/notes that come up in a search there for "Joseph John Holmes d. 1963" the one with the title that says "Joseph John Holmes Clark // 'who is father is'"? Maybe someone to contact if you've not seen it.
Checked the NAA website and it seems Joseph also served in WW1, you can see his service record on the NAA site http://www.naa.gov.au/
According to that, he was 39yrs + 1 month on 1st Feb 1916.;
that gives his birthdate as roughly 1st Jan 1877, which supports the earlier 24th Dec 1876 birthdate.
Interestingly, he gives next of kin there as his mother "Jane HOLMES, Bethangra VIC" - in 1915.
Wonder why not Jane CLARKE...?
(More about him also by the way on the AWM website: http://www.awm.gov.au/research/people/all/?Name=joseph+john+holmes&ServiceNumber=&Unit=&Conflict=All+conflicts)
However, according to the NSW BDM index (deaths):
10552/1963 HOLMES JOSEPH JOHN WILLIAM JAMES JANE ELIZABETH TUMUT,
so this death cert says his father was William, who died 1yr+2mths before 24th Dec 1876.
Then, I did a Google search for "Holmes, Joseph John", and his record came up here:
http://www.monaropioneers.com/Descendant-reports/AIF%20Volunteers.pdf
... giving his birth details as "1873, Gundagai NSW"! Also says there he died April 15 1963, buried in Batlow cemetery.
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Thanks,
Yes I have been able to contact one of the tree owners, unfortunately the one who seems to be closely connected to him is no responding.
I had a look at his war record which I had not searched for yet, he won a Military Medal for bravery as a stretcher bearer.
I dont think that Jane ever m arried Henry Clarke, perhaps Joseph was estranged from his mother.
Maybe Henry Clarke had deserted them or something like that and Joseph used his mothers name.
Joseph certainly didnt know where his mother was living when he enlisted. She was living at Granya, not Bethanga, close but different towns.
Next step is to try to find agrave inscription from Batlow or buy his death cert to check his children.
Lin up a tree, I see you are researching Holmes also. Where were your Holmes from?
Our william who die in 1876 came from Norfolk but I haven't been able to pin down exactly where or who his family were.
mum mum
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Such a shame re: the tree owners not replying yet :'( Keeping my fingers crossed for you.
That was very cool to read about Joseph's medal, wasn't it! Think you may be onto something re: the story surrounding the family.
Re: Holmes --
My line originated in Devon in the mid-1700s, though before that don't know. My gx2-grandmother (also Jane Holmes :*) ) was born in London but went back to Devon for a while & then out to Sydney on her own to meet up with + marry her sweetheart when she was 22. (She married him 2 days after getting off the ship! :*) )
Re: Your William (James?) HOLMES --
Ah, I see! I wonder, do you have any extra clues other than those on his death cert? (i.e. Born Norfolk England, emigrated to NSW c.1845)
On those rough details he would have been young, aged about 15 when he came out here...
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Hi again,
My William Holmes is still a mystery, I did find on ships record for a plough boy who arrived from Norfolk about the right time. I have seached the English census for a William Holmes in Norfolk who was on the 1841 census and disapeared after that. it left me with two possibilities. One of Francis and Mary in Upwell looked promising as William named his first daughter Mary but there is no way of being sure. I am hoping that if I get some of the childrens birth certificates they may give a place of birth in Norfolk.
I have just sent a etter to the editor of the Tumut and Adelong Times hoping to find some connections up that way.
mum mum
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Hello Mum Mum, just stumbled across this site.. I have been researching my partners family tree for a while with limited success until recently. I befriended a distant cousin of his on Facebook who has been researching with her father. Anyway my ancestor's name was William Saddler who married Esther Vincent. I have been looking for Saddlers and unable to find anything. My informant then solved some of the mystery for me by saying that Williams mother was Ellen Saddler and she gave her name to her son.. He said she had then disappeared and William was raised by his maybe father Edward "Ned' Holmes.
I have since been researching the Holmes family and found on Rootsweb where someone has written that Ned Holmes found an Aboriginal child in the Gundagai floods of 1888 and raised it as his own. Now I am totally confused. It also shows where Ellen and Ned had numerous children together so she obviously didn't disappear.... This Aboriginal child has got to be my William I am sure but I don't know what to believe anymore :) Any help anyone can give me will be gratefully received.
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Hi Nat,
Rootschaters can be very helpful in finding lost people and sorting out family mysteries.
I suggest that you start a new topic about your William Sadler and his family.
Go back to the forum, to the Australian board and at the top of the board is a tab for 'new topic'. Use his name and date of birth as a topic perhaps, then give what details you do know about him and what you can't find. Try to be as clear as possible and don't be insulted if people give you information you already have or ask heaps of questions. They all mean well and some of the people are fantastic at finding information.
mum mum
P.S. I look forward to seeing your post.
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Hi again Nat,
I was just looking at my family tree and see that my Edward Holmes died in Condobolin, I do have a contact address for a cousin who's Grandfather is over that way and may remember something about the family. I will send you a personal message with my email address and we can talk privately about it.
mum mum
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Just updating this post to bring it up to date, I am hoping that someone will come across it when looking for Sarah or Henry, [Clark/Holmes/Lim Sue]
I have Sarah's birth certificate, Sarah Dim Sue, born 1877, father Joseph Dim Sue, Chinese Doctor who was born in Amoy Province in China. I can find no trace of Sarah after this, she is listed as living at her mothers death in 1919. She is not the Sarah who married John Taylor at Bombala or the Sarah who married a Quinnell at Gundagai.
The son listed on Jane Clarks death certificate in 1919 as 'Henry' or Harry was actually born Julius Holmes, 1883 in Grahamstown, near Adelong NSW, father unknown, mother Elizabeth Holmes, formerly Woods.
Obviously Granny Clark had a short relationship with the Chinese Doctor resulting in two children, Joseph and Sarah. She was then on her own for a while and some man, name unknown left her pregnant with Julius/ Henry. She has then possibly had another relationship with Henry Clark leaving her family believing that Clark was the father of the last three children. Maybe, perhaps it was just preferable to admitting the Chinese connection.
Jane Elizabeth Clark is at Granya in 1909, no Mr Clark with her, I can't find a likely death for a Henry Clark before then though.
I also can't find any likely records for Julius/Henry Clark/Holmes serving in WW1, I even searched under Tumut/Adelong/Grahamstown and trawled through them all, I dont think he served.
mum mum
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Hi,
Sorry to bore you all wth this, another possible development though.
Sarah 'Dim Sue' [Holmes/ Clarke] may have married a Davis, found a private member tree on Ancestry and am hoping that the owner will get back to me. This tree apparently has a photo of Sarah Jane Davis, nee Holmes born 1873 in NSW with Elizabeth Hanley, [my Great Grandmother]. The photo was taken in 1930, so Sarah was still alive then.
I am not having any luck finding a marriage for Sarah Clarke/ Holmes to a Davis or a death for Sarah Davis, mother Jane Elizabeth, father? God knows which one she would have named as her father, but the tree says Holmes.
Why can't my mother remember her Auntie Sarah, after all Mum was 3 years old when this photo was taken, [joking] I just hope the Tree owner gets back to me.
mum mum
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Hi there mum mum.
I came across this posting via a Google search for Jane Wood.
I have traced back our family tree as far as Jane Elizabeth Wood who married William James Holmes in Sydney 1853. These are my 3rd-Great-Grandparents.
My branch comes from their daughter Mary Jane b:1854, who married George Quinnell (at least that is what I can gather).
I have very little information on Jane, but as regards William James Holmes, I have listed that he arrived in NSW as a convict 17 July 1837. According to the Old Bailey record his age was 29 at the time of trial, but other family tree listings show he was born Norfolk c.1819, making him 18/19 when sent to Australia (perhaps a misprint in the court records). If he was indeed born in 1819 he was 56 year old if he died in 1875 or more like 66 if his court records are correct.
I tried searching the Old Bailey records for "William Holmes" but there were a few other entries who were also transported, but only 7 years, not 14 year like the one I have recorded. The 1837 conviction was for 14 years, and he was given his release in NSW in 1851 (approx. 32yrs old), so this seems to fit with him being free to marry Jane 2 years later.
Thank you for the information you provided and if you have any new information about Jane I would be interested to know (especially her ancestors).
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Hello and thanks for the reply, I will send you a personal message with my email address so we can exchange information more easily.
I have quite a bit of information on Jane, where she was born and died, I'm still unable to find out what happened to two of her children. William Holmes is another story, we had given up on finding out how he got to Australia as we hadn't been able to positively identify a convict arrival as being him.
Do you know what ship he arrived on?
mum mum
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Hi I have a picture of Mary Jane Holmes that made me curious of her nationality. I just wanted to check if her father is definitely William James Holmes or if she could be the child of Joseph Lim.
Thankyou,
Wendish001
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Hi Wendy,
I would like to see a picture of Mary Jane, my records show that she was born in 1854 so she would have been William Holmes daughter She married a Quinnell from memory
mum mum
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I have one photo of Mary Jane as an older woman, who looks very much like her mother Jane Elizabeth Wood(s) when she was a very elderly woman, as well as Her daughter Maria Quinnell when she too was elderly.
There were many more siblings of Mary Jane born to Jane and William Holmes before Joseph Lin Sue (Lim Sue), and Mary Jane and her brother John (perhaps twins as they were born the same year) were the first children born to Mary and William Holmes so it is very unlikely it could be Joseph as the father, although it is never a certainty that William was the father.
I also have a photo of Joseph son of Joseph and Mary Jane, who has definite Asian features from his father.
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I know this is old but hopefully someone will get a notification.
Just something to add to this mystery, my family tree has linked me with Jane Elizabeth Wood, Swan River, death Granya, as the mother of Ellen Holmes Tumut 1867
Ellen then married George Taylor and settled in Condobolin.
No one on here has mentioned an Ellen, so could my tree hints be wrong?
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I found she had 3 spouses and 12 children, one of which was Ellen - solved