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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: Mrs Dalloway on Thursday 11 March 10 21:52 GMT (UK)
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On 30 Nov 1869, Bryan Carty, a coal porter, was accidentally drowned while fishing in Kingstown harbour. According to the inquest report published 2 dec 1869 in the Irish Times, the jury foreman said that immedite consideration was needed for the ' helpless condition of the widow who was left with four small children totally unprovided for..' This man was my Greatx3 grandfather.
What happened to his family in the immediate years following his death?
His daughter Ann was married to James Daly 9 sept 1873 in St Michans Church St Anne St, North Dublin.
A witness at this wedding was Mary Carthy (possibly a sister or mother?) Her address on her marriage cert was : 8 Flynn's Cottages x Gunns. Is this CrossGuns - as in Phibsborough? Where is this and in what Parish is it?
By 1901 she was living in Crumlin - giving her age as 46 years on the census. (DOB 1856?)
So, is there any way I can find out where they were living when Bryan Carthy died and what happened to his family when he died? Any idea where to go from here would be really appreciated .
Thanks,
Clarissabell
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'x Gunns' sounds like Cross Gun's in Phibsborough to me, but I dont see anywhere named Flynn's cottages in the area at the moment. (sometimes cottages are not listed in street directories)
The location seems a slightly unusual address for the bride if she married in Sth Anne street on the other side of the city... maybe that was a temporary address at the time of the marriage and her actual parish was St Michans ?
I am assuming that Bryan's death cert did not mention his residence, so it might be difficult to find out where the family were based in Kingstown/Dun Laoghaire. Were any of their children born in the area between 1864 and 1869 ?
Shane
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The marriage cert says, I think, that they were married in St Michans on Saint Anne Street... which I think is a different one from South Anne Street off Grafton St.
On the 1901 census it says that both she and her husband, James Daly, are from Co Meath.
I dont know ANYTING about Anne's siblings or her mother's name - although there is a Mary Carthy who was witness at Anne's marriage.
I got a typed transcript of the report from a distant family member - who may no longer be living... and it says nothing about where he lived. It just says that his wife says...
'her husband left their dwelling at 5pm after supper with the avowed object of securing work on board one of mr Ted Castle's ships, which was hourly expected with coals.... was sober... and by {7:45 } cries of distress were heard by coastguards. '
It is difficult to judge from this if he lived close by the harbour or not...
I am uploading the death cert of Bryan Carthy - I cant make out much of the writing. Perhaps the death was registered in Rathdown because that is where he died... and not where he lived?? Do you know anything about the procedure of registering accidental deaths?
Michelle
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I suppose I could try to find his grave... where were poor people buried in Dublin in 1869...?? WOuld the body have been returned to his wife or would the authorities have taken care of the burial?
I seem to have more questions than answers with this family... ???
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Births, Marriages and Deaths were registered in the district in which they took place... so Rathdown would fit with Dun Laoghaire.
I dont think he could have live that far away at the time if he was expecting a ship 'within the hour' and walked to the harbour. That possibly places his home address somewhere within 4 or 5 km of Dun Laoghaire ... so probably South county Dublin or suburbs.
cant help with place of burial.. that would probably depend on where the family lived and if they had a plot.
what I see on the death cert :
Cause of Death : accidentally Drowned by falling into Kingstown Harbour
Informant : Information received from the Coroner of the County of Dublin
Shane
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St. Michan's Church on (Old) Church Street near the Four Courts, would be close to Phibsborough (about 1.5 km) and is in the Civil (CofI) parish of St. Michan
I am not sure what the 'St Mary' reference is on the cert..
The Church would be in the registration district of Dublin North
Shane
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That is really helpful - At least I can place them on the Northside of the city in 1873... but by 30 mar 1876, they are living in Crumlin, south Dublin at the baptism of their son John Daly.
There is a 'witness: Mary Carthy' on the marriage certificate of Anne and James Daly.
The report on the inquest talks about starting up a collection for the widow... and said something about mentioning it in the paper for contributions - it ends by noting, 'the inquest was then terminated, may members of the jury subscribing towards the immediate wants of the bereaved family'.
That sounds like the family were in dire straits... I mean how far would such charitable donations get them? They were probably destined for the workhouse. Anne was 14 at this stage by my calculations, so she was probably at an age to start working, but as for the others??
If they were married in St Michan's, were they CoI?
Thanks for taking an interest Shane :)
Michelle
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The grooms residence on the marriage cert looks like Crumlin to me.
St. Michan's is CofI..see http://www.dublinchurches.com/
what is the priest/ministers name on the marriage cert ?
Shane
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there is an RC St Michan's ... but cannot remember where it's located at the moment - presumably in the same general area, will check that...
S.
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It's Roman Catholic... it says' Married in the Roman Catholic Chapel of St Michan's St Anne St....' (same as photo I uploaded earlier..) James Roche C.C. is the priest's name.
It must be in the same area though? If there is a South Anne St... maybe there was a NORTH Anne St too?
The children were all baptised in the RC church in Crumlin, although there was a CoI chapel there too and I think Anne Carthy was actually buried in the graveyard of St Mary's CoI.
Michelle
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St Michans R.C. is in Halston St, south of N King St
eadaoin
PS - I think N Anne St is at the back of this Church - map not very clear
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Thanks Eadaoin - I thought I read somewhere last night that Anne st was contiguous with North King Street... but havent a clue where that is. Will google it.
THANKS!
MICHELLE
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from Thom's 1880 :
Halston St - from Mary's Lane to North King St
Civil Parish - St. Michan's
St. Michan's R. Catholic Church
(at the junction of of Ball's lane)
next to this is the Presbytery and among the clergy listed is Rev. James Roche C.C.
Mary's Lane is listed as running between Little Green St and Church St
slightly closer to Phibsborough than the CofI St. Michan's. You can see the areas in the 1880s on this map - North Dublin - c1880 (http://roots.swilson.info/dublinnorthcountyc1880/dublinenvirons_c1880_N.html) (some of the churches are highlighted)
Shane
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This is great Shane - I could spend all day just looking around this map! Your site is a fantastic resource.
I think I have to go digging around for some certs so that I can find some more names and addresses.
There was another man, Cooke, who was pulled from the water in time & survived. It was only when they went back to pull in the 'lines' that they found Bryan Carthy. There was also a fellow caol porter, Mr John McCabe who gave evidence at the inquest. Maybe I will find some information on these neighbours or friends of Bryan Carthy and they might give me a clue to his family's address.
There is one thing I am sure of ...this will be an ongoing investigation.
Michelle
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found a bit more detail about Anne St and the area around ... see the maps below from 1863 and 1912.
Halston Street was known in the 1860s as Newgate.. you can see Anne St just to the west. Modern google maps name Anne St as a continuation of Ball's Lane, which is the street the goes from Newgate/Halston St and crosses Anne's St.
Shane
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Brilliant! You really have earned your Marquessate Stars on this one.
How these smaller streets seemed to have been swollowed up or forgotten over time. Does the 1868 map say anything about crossguns?
I wonder if the cottages were in anyway assoiciated with the working of the canal?
Thanks M
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I have all these maps are online at : http://roots.swilson.info/
Some of the county maps (usually called the Envorons of Dublin..) show Cross Guns as the name of the area around the Canal Bridge (Westmoreland), near Phibbsborough. The 1880 north County Dublin map have the best view of the area. The other City maps cut short near the canal..
Shane
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In 1851 (Index to Townlands) there were 3 Crossguns townlands.
All in Dublin North
Crossguns in Glasnevin
Crossguns North or Daneswell - in parish of St George
Crossguns South - in parish of St George, and in Dublin Municipal Borough
all very close in the area Shane mentioned. Ask any Northsider where's Crossguns Bridge and they could tell you! Though it's not marked on the current Dublin street Atlas.
eadaoin
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Thanks Eadaoin,
I've been looking at the maps and trying to find where those cottages might be. It is maddening that those in tenements or living on the edges of society, labouring or working as domestics, are omitted from directories etc... like they didint exist. It makes our job a little bit more difficult.
Thanks for taking an interest.
Michelle
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I would suggest Dean's Grange as place of burial. It started in 1865 and plots there are for humble folk. The grave might have been reused after a 20 yr interval and probably no headstone. But the records there would give details of address etc. You are lucky you have exact date of death. A telephone call might give you the information.
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Thanks Annie - I am afraid I had no success in Deans Grange... but I will go down the cemetery root and take advantage of the information that I have.
:)
Michelle
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Hi
Regarding you're search for 6 Flynns Cottages.
I live in Phibsborough, and the Flynn's Cottages you are looking for still exist but are now derelict (if I'm correct on the location), and they are next to the pub at Cross Guns Bridge. On the map its the junction of Royal Canal Bank and Phibsborough Road.
A 'Mr Flynn' and family lived in number 6 'Flynn's Cottages' and is listed as a master carrier as his profession on the census form. There is a great photo of ...believe it or not....'Mr. Flynn's' transport wagons at the canal bridge on the 1911 census webpages.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/exhibition/dublin/waters/L_RoyalCanalD2911.html
This is a very well know area, you can see the chimney of Mountjoy prison in the background.
hope this helps. very interested in your posting as coincidently I was a county councillor in Dún laoghaire (Kingtown) untill last year
regards
Ruairí
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Michelle,
Would these possibly be siblings of Ann?
From FamilySearch.org
Catherine Carthy b April 1867 Kingstown
Eleanor Carthy b Sept 1865, Kingstown
Parents Brian Carthy and Margaret Murphy
Siobhan
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Thank you Ruairi and Siobhan for your posts. I had run out of leads on this line of the family, but you both have refuelled my interest. I am honoured that your first post, Ruairi was in connection with the sad Story of Bryan Carthy and his family. The photo is just wonderful. They could have lived there! I will have to take a trip to Phibsborough and get a photo of the cottages before they are demolished and lost forever. Thanks for that.
Siobhan, those records could indeed relate to Ann's siblings. I'll look into it - thanks a million of doing the search and for sending me on the details. It was just the inspiration I needed.
Many thanks!
Clarissabell
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Siobhan,
It just occurs to me that Ann had a daughter named Catherine Daly - Katie as she was known, was my great grandmother... so it is a family name! Also, she had another daughter named Margaret... so perhaps she was named for Ann's mother... going by your information. It's looking very hopeful. I'm very excited about these records. Thanks!!
CLarissabell
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Just for clarification regarding Cross Guns Bridge. Technically, I suppose it is Phibsborough. It is the double (railway & canal) bridge that takes Prospect Road from Finglas to Phibsboro cross roads.
I mention this because in the days when I way young there was a branch of the Royal Canal that cut away from the main line and went under the North Circular Road at what used to be Blacquiere *sp???) Bridge. The canal then ran along the back of Gldsmith street, fed Blessinton street Basin and ended in a terminus at Broadstone Harbour. This branch is nor a linear park, and there is little to show that there was ever a canal there.
However to be clear, Cross Guns Bridge is next to where the old St. Vincent's Orphanage used to be.
Is there not a possibility that as the death occurred in the Kingstown/Dunlaoighaire harbour that the inquest and death certificate would issue from Rathdrum. I am not clear that the burial should necessarily have taken place in that area. Cross Guns might suggest Glasnevin cemetery, which has a good search engine on line. Here's the URL
http://www.glasnevintrust.ie/genealogy/
Good luck with the search!
David.
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Bryan Carty Death 1869
Rathdown, not Rathdrum. It's in the BMD index
I don't think the online Glasnevin records go back beyond 1890, but they're on the way
eadaoin
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Hello Eadaoin,
Rathdown is, of course right. A stupid mistake on my part.
Apologies to all.
David
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found Flynn's cottages near to Westmoreland bridge on the 25" map on the OSI website : Flynn's Cottages, Cross Guns (http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,715063,736271,7) Right in the location described by Ruairí and near to the branch of the canal that Xotan described.
(when viewing the map press '8' or click on the Historic 25" option, to view the correct map version )
Shane
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Thanks a million Shane - this is so clear, I'll easily be able to locate the area today. What a great site. Brilliant!
Clarissabell. :)
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Hello my great grandfather was named john flynn of 'Flynn's cottages' Cross Guns
Several members of his family lived in the cottages by the canal. My grandfather was born there and lived with his siblings.
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Hello, My maidan name Rose Flynn I was born to my Parents Alice and William Flynn who lived in 6
Flynns cottages, My grandfather was John Flynn who was the owner of the Carrier business, I was born in Jan 1942, and in Jan 1943 all the cottages were knocked down , Most of the residents moved to Cabra West or East, the Names are my family Flynns, Mc Mahon, Allans, Murreys to east Cabra, I remember the name carthy being on the census but not sure where this family moved to. I still live here in Cabra
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Re the original posting for Bryan Carthy he may not be the man who died in Kingstown.
I just found Anne Carthy's marriage to James Daly transcribed as Daby on Irish Genealogy
Anne's parents were Brian and Mary from Longwood ,Co Meath, at the time of the marriage Brian was decd but Mary was alive in Longwood.
James Daly's address was Crumlin.
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=st.michans_mf_1856-1888_ma_0482
there were two other Brian Carthy's living in Kingstown
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F55L-9X1
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FPBQ-QS4
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Hello, My maidan name Rose Flynn I was born to my Parents Alice and William Flynn who lived in 6
Flynns cottages, My grandfather was John Flynn who was the owner of the Carrier business, I was born in Jan 1942, and in Jan 1943 all the cottages were knocked down , Most of the residents moved to Cabra West or East, the Names are my family Flynns, Mc Mahon, Allans, Murreys to east Cabra, I remember the name carthy being on the census but not sure where this family moved to. I still live here in Cabra
Hi Rose. I am so sorry that your reply went unanswered for so long. Thank you so much for your reply. I am only now getting back into the family tree - If I find anything on this branch of the family I will let you know. Regards, Michelle