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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: cannonhill on Thursday 01 April 10 13:14 BST (UK)
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Am looking for information about my great-grandfather Charles Henry Hall and/or his parents Thomas Henry Hall and Eliza Milner. Charles was born in Bradford ~1853 to Thomas Henry Hall & Eliza Milner. Charles went on as a young adult to emigrate to New Zealand.
I have not had any success finding out any further information about the Hall side of the family and no nothing really of the Milners. Any help would be most appreciated.
The other part of the equation is establishing on what ship Charles headed to New Zealand which was no later than 1884, probably a bit earlier.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Cheers
Bill
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Hi Bill,
you say you have the family from censuses but that has confused me already ;)
1861 RG9; Piece: 3322; Folio: 51; Page: 32
has the family with sons Charles Henry and Frederick William and also a daughter Emily aged 4 yrs. Is this your family?
There is also a marriage on Free BMD with possible spouses Thomas Henry Hall and Eliza Milner which if you haven't got would give you their fathers' names.
best wishes
heywood
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This is a strong possibility for Eliza in 1851
1851 HO107; Piece: 2308; Folio: 80; Page: 13
5 Trafalgar Street Bradford
Wm T Milner 25 yrs Grocer and Tea dealer
Ann Milner sister 33 yrs housekeeper
Eliza Milner sister 22 yrs assistant to brother
Elizabeth Pool visitor 18 yrs
all born Leeds
if that is her, then this looks like her in 1841 -transcribed as Elvia
Parents William and Hannah and children of similar ages to above plus a Mary.
I can give you full details of you need them.
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This seems to confirm the above:
1871 RG10; Piece: 4463; Folio: 61; Page: 27
1 Hallfield Street Bradford
Wm F Milner 45 yrs Master Grocer -one man b Armley
Mary Milner sister 51 yrs housekeeper b Armley
Chas H Hall nephew 17 yrs Draper unemployed b Bradford
I can't see Charles in 1881- he is not with William who is a retired tea dealer.
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Possibility for Thomas:
1851 HO107; Piece: 2308; Folio: 47; Page: 7
9 Victoria Street Bradford
Mary Hall head widow 63 yrs b Catterick
Thos Henry Hall 26 yrs Cashier in Timber trade b Leeds
Eliza Jephson 14 yrs house servant b Rotherham
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Hello Heywood
My goodness that was fast response! I posted the message whilst at work to see if there was any information to be had for the weekend. I am attempting to write up our NZ family history and as it all comes from the UK, I wanted to frame it.
My head is hung low in shame. There is another set of grandparents I also have to track down and in that area, the brothers are Charles & William. You are right to point out Frederick William as the brother for Charles Henry Hall. A major booboo on my side for confusing the two families as I typed up. Human error but a frustrating and misleading one nonetheless.
The information you have been providing appears to be my family. I will relook at my family tree when I get home and confirm.
Enormous thank you for your assistance. Having a family ridden with pioneering types is great but also very difficult to track their movements, especially emigration etc.
Will digest this evening and come back.
Many thanks
Bill
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Well at least we're on the right track ;) Have a check up and see what transpires and then please post. :D
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Hello again Heywood
Home now and have access to my tree.
I did have it in my records (advised by a cousin who used to tinker) that Eliza Milner was born in Armley. I assume that is around Leeds. So the Armley/Leeds link sits well. And the other entries you provided (including the transcription error of Elvia) would ring true as well. So that is quite a bit of information on Milners.
As we agreed earlier, the references to Charles Henry, Frederick William and Emily Hall are correct.
I have no record of the marriage date etc you mention is on FreeBDM for Thomas Henry & Eliza. I assume that is trackable online from which I could order a marriage certificate to get parent's names? It would appear that we know Eliza's but suppose the certificate would rubber stamp that. As for Thomas, his mother is Mary (someone) and by 1851 is a widow.
The entry in 1871 showing Charles Henry Hall (my g.g.grandfather) residing with Milners as a 17yo is excellent. Closes the gap on tracing where he was and what he did before heading to New Zealand. To be honest, we don't have a lot of knowledge of him there either except for some addresses, a load of children (10) including my grandfather, and his death. But I am assuming that something either attracted or drove him to NZ. Eventually it would be nice to locate him on passenger list for his travels and from that to see if he travelled alone or with other family members.
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Yes, Armley is Leeds.
I wonder if Charles' decision to emigrate was influenced by his unemployment in 1871?
Yes you can order the marriage certificate:
Free BMD site: http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
General Register Office: http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
will help.
I am assuming that is Thomas in 1851
I can't spot a definite Mary Hall in 1841 so it would be good to have that marriage certificate so that you can confirm the father's name.
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Thanks Heywood
I will take the plunge and order the marriage certificate. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. As to the driver for Charles to go to NZ, I don't think he arrived until around 1880 - some 9 years after that census record. That was a calculation based on his death record where in NZ they used to have to state how many years they had been in the country at the time of death. Could even have been later as the first child born was 1885 (my grandfather).
Thank you once again for all your help. Most appreciated.
Bill
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Hi Bill,
I just had another look and still can't spot him in 1881. Could he have gone to New Zealand via Australia or somewhere else perhaps?
Did he marry in New Zealand?
I think the marriage certificate is worth getting- for its historical value if nothing else but hope that it supplies us with a father's name. There is a possibility for Thomas Henry in 1841 as, it looks like, an apprentice to a Grocer which fits in with the whole scene- both Milners and Halls being in that kind of trade.
good night
Kath
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Hi Kath
Many thanks for the address of FreeBMD site. I will go on and order that marriage certificate this morning.
With regard to heading to NZ, Charles married Mary Alice Spillard in NZ in 1883. How or when he got there I do not know, but it was in time for him to find and marry Mary. Whether Thomas Henry Hall and Eliza Hall (Milner) also went I don't know, but doubt. They would have been getting on a bit to start a new life. However, in saying that, I have yet to track down their deaths here in the UK at this point.
As for potential location of Thomas in 1841, you are right, there is every chance at that age he would be apprenticed in the family business. He would be about 16 at the time. Later he has gone on to work in the cashier roles. Would appreciate that entry to evaluate.
I had set myself a year to write this family-wide history book (a not for publication version) but having delved into our UK ancestors the information deepens and commitment to getting answers almost hypnotic. Most fascinating. So thank you.
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He's not in a (his own) family business but he is the only Thomas Henry Hall in a search and is the right age and area. Obviously people did not always use their middle name so it is a bit tenuous.
I have just had to look again at the meaning of the slashes on the census sheets and always have to check ::)
"a single slash between households within a building and a double slash separating households in separate buildings."
1841 Class: HO107; Piece 1314; Book: 9; Folio: 33; Page: 1
Kirkgate, Otley
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Bathsheba Kitchen 30 yrs Female servant born in county
Thomas Henry Hall 15 yrs Ap
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It's not very informative - not even whether born in county but the single and double slashes indicates that these two are in the same building as William Forster, Grocer and his family.
However, the next entry is a Draper and family so suffice it to say, that somehow this Thomas seems to be bound up with trade. :)
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Well now - I am sure that all this makes sense to you but here is a surprise for me. I was looking at the Family Trees on Anc. and there was a public tree which is inacessible but had your family names in Manchester. I have just seen it now in 1871 :-\
1871 RG10; Piece: 4007; Folio: 24; Page: 40
Manchester
There is amongst the 'new' children another Frederick William aged 4 yrs so presumably the older F W dies 1861-1867.
1881 RG11; Piece: 3938; Folio: 9; Page: 11
Eliza is a widow.
The only death I can see in Manchester is Thomas Hall 46 yrs in 1876 :-\
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1891 RG12; Piece: 3199; Folio 145; Page 39
21 Portman Street Moss Side Manchester
Eliza Hall head widow 62 yrs living on own means b Armley
Blanche Hall 29 yrs
Frederick W Hall 24 yrs Stock Broker's cashier
Florence M Hall 22 yrs
Clarissa E Hall 19 yrs
children all born Manchester
1901 RG13; Piece: 3672; Folio: 108; Page: 11
17 Hartington Road Chorlton cum Hardy
Eliza Hall 72 yrs Living on own means
Blanche Hall 39yrs living on own means
Frederick W Hall 34yrs stock broker's cashier
Free BMD has a death for an Eliza 73 yrs in 1902 :-\
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Dear Kath
My goodness, that is an impressive list of family members and information about their lives. Thank you. Interested to see that Thomas Henry Hall seemed to be billeted out from what would appear to be as soon as he was of working age. So searching for him amongst a family load of Halls would not necessarily have worked.
Was a little unsure if the death notice you found in Manchester in 1876 was him if the death age was 46. If he was born in 1825 then he would have been 51 rather than 46. Do you think there might have been a bit of an age issue or perhaps was this someone else.
I now have a much greater idea of Thomas's life and that of Charles leading up to when he emigrated. That is marvellous. I get the impression that this particular arm of the family (only one) was not completely up against it financially. Nice to read.
Might now, apart from trying to find Charles heading off to the colonies, find out more about this plethora of Halls that I am related to here in the UK. Interesting for me is that virtually all the names that appear in the information you provided me, are repeated in the next generation down in NZ. Thank you once again so much.
Bill
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Hi Bill,
that's what bothered me with the names at first. Sometimes you see that people 'adopt' a whole load of family and at first I thought that this was what had happened and the tree for some reason has been removed.
Then, when I did a further search, they turned up in Manchester. The air on the other side of the Pennines (the right side ;D) obviously breathed new life into Thomas and Eliza and they embarked on a whole new family.
Kath ;)
I agree with the death -wasn't sure at all but I think it was the only one in the time frame- you could check again.