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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: hurley42 on Wednesday 28 April 10 09:09 BST (UK)
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Hi
I recently discovered that a relative had served with the Royal Artillery in Ireland during the 1870s. I have a photo of him in uniform in a Dublin Studio c1868-70 (attached).
Do personnel records still exist for that period ?
I had a quick look at the UK Archives site and it seems they are digitising many military records but I was unable to verify the survival of specific records that probably contain details of my relative. I need to uncover his attestation papers as I have no 'hard' information on his life - definitive Irish BDM records are hard to come by for the 1840s.
Has anyone searched for this period for former Royal Artillery members ? Any tips ? as I live in Sydney Australia I am unable to 'drop in' at Kew !
Cheers
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Welcome to Rootschat Hurley42
What an excellent photo.
What's his name ? We can check and see if his papers have been released online yet
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Hi Shaunj
His name is John Nixon.
Possibly born in the late 1840s and his family was living in Rosmead near Delvin, County Westmeath, by late 1850. He is reputed to have migrated to the USA.
How long would he have served with the Royal Artillery ?
His fathers name was John and mothers name was Mary Ann (Nee Robinson). He had a younger brother named Henry who went to NSW in about 1875. Hence my interest 160 years later !
Thats all I know about his early life.
If his military record has survived it may shed some extra light on his background.
Cheers and thanks for your interest.
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So far we only have 1883-1900 service records available online and I don't see him there. 1873 to1882 are scheduled to be online by June 2010 so we can check again when they are available.
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ShaunJ
OK thanks ShaunJ. I look fwd to June !
Do you know how long British Army soldiers had to 'sign up' for the 1870s ?
Cheers
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just some info about the photographers and studio in case it assists ...
Lauder brothers (later the business was named Lafayette) started operating in Dublin by the early 1870s, and had several studios in Dublin City. I've been unable so far to locate when they had a studio in Kingstown, County Dublin, which can sometimes help date photos.
Kingstown, now named Dún Laoghaire is a town to the south east of Dublin city and was a major port for traffic to England, and was where the mailboat was based. I've seen a few newspaper reports indicating that often soldiers arrived and departed from here to England.
I'll keep an eye out for detail of their Kingstown studio, and let you know if I find anything
Shane
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Hi: Hate to butt in onto this discussion but I had googled Royal Artillery Dublin as I have just discovered some info turning up in an obituary regarding my ancestor's brother. She was living in Australia (my line stayed in England) - it was mentioned that he had joined the Royal Artillery and got a Home Government pension and lived in Dublin. My question for you is was the relative you are talking about Irish? - my man was from Essex, England so I am a little puzzled why he would be in Ireland....or maybe it was Dublin, Australia. I saw the pension records are on myfamily but was hesitant to join for a record that might not show up (I have ancestry.com). Oh dear, long story short, was your man Irish? Many thanks, josh.
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Hi
Thanks shanew147 for the Studio info. Yes every little fact helps ! Kingstown was a transport hub - thats not surprising ! Are shipping records available for Irish ports for people emigrating ?
Yes josh jones John was most probably Irish as his brother (Henry - subject to a post on the Irish section of this website) certainly was.
I am yet to track birth details for John - thats why I need to see his military record. I think I have traced a likely marriage entry for the parents in 1839 at a town only 12 kms or so from where Henry was born ..... Rosmead.
If you need to track information in Australia a good place to start is the digitized newspaper record on the National Library site. For births, deaths and marriages in NSW there is an excellent search function on the official site as well - at no charge. Not sure about the other states.
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....Are shipping records available for Irish ports for people emigrating ?
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Kingstown would primarily be used just for ships travelling to England, and since Ireland was part of the UK then there are no records of these. I dont know of any specific Irish port records and as far as I know for destinations further afield, these are usually just listed with other UK records.
Shane
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Hi Hurley42. The Army "pensioners" records 1873-1882 are now released on FindMyPast but I don't see your John Nixon there. There is one of that name born circa 1842 in Newtonbutler, Fermanagh, but he was in the 83rd Foot.
Josh Jones - what was your artillery man's name ?
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Hi: His name was Samuel Dudley (his father's surname was Dudley alias Bright, so sometimes they go by Bright). He was born 1799 Essex, England. I also wonder why I cannot find any trace of him on any census reports for England, again, something to do with Ireland do you think? I'm already with ancestry...can reciprocate. Many thanx josh
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Hi Josh,
I tracked down that newspaper article which said that this was an "East Hammingford" family, and that there was a brother who had joined the Royal Artllery very young, was discharged on a pension, and had died in Dublin around 1872.
I can't find a Samuel Dudley (or Bright) that fits the bill but per the IGI for East Hanningford there was an older brother William baptised in 1792.
I am wondering if this is him (papers at National Archives, due to be released for viewing on FindMyPast sometime in 2011):
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=7&CATID=-4054534
"WO 97/1215 Royal Artillery: Bot - Bro
WILLIAM BRIGHT
Born EAST HAM, Essex
Served in Royal Artillery
Discharged aged 41
1806-1832 "
This suggests a birth year circa 1791 so fits with the William Dudley baptism.
FamilySearch Rcord Search has the death registration of a William Bright in Sligo in 1870, aged 80. Might be him
http://www.rootschat.com/links/08nv/
There's also a William Dudly who died in Cork in 1866, aged 74. Another possibility.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/08nu/
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Very many thanks for your help. You've made me realize a couple of things...the Irish question, looking at the archives I see that Kilmainham(spelling) Hospital is in Dublin, which takes care of that part. I had looked at the archives, at the time I shrugged off this Bright from East Ham (there is an East Ham in Essex - I come from Essex), but then it could be East Ham. (as in short for East Hamingfield) - I could see how that could happen. I have not found their parents marriage, so yet another alternative could be that he was born in East Ham (all supposing here...) and baptized in East Hanningfield. I'm curious enough that I've ordered it in. I should add that I have ordered records from the archives before that had been entered incorrectly, that I had ordered anyway on a hunch and it turned out good. I did have the baptisms (went through the actual parish register on film years ago with obviously poor notes) but had dismissed William as his father was also called William, and there was a burial record for a William but no age given and I had inadvertently added the death date for both father and son (and then never bothered to look at it again). I don't seem to see a William Bright born East Ham on any census reports at ancestry, which helps with the idea that this may be my man. Looks like the records will be coming online...eventually...story of my life! You've helped enormously...thanks so much.
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ShaunJ
Many thanks for looking for Henry's record. I suspect it may turn up when the preceding decade is placed on the web as the photo is judged to be from c1870.
If it does not surface then I gather that his record has not survived or that the interpretation of the uniform could be incorrect.
What do you think ?
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This is such a long shot. My grandmother’s birth certificate gives Infantry Barracks Waterford as place of birth 7/3/1878 (do. Bapt. Cert). Father’s name John Smyth, occupation soldier. Mother’s maiden name, Smith ( how bad can it get?). I knew great-grandmother well – she died aged 104 – but as she remarried about 1905 no mention was made of her first husband. Grandmother did not like children, and I was pleased to keep out of her way so have no information from that source.
I think Waterford was home to a unit of Royal Artillery at that time – Google has not been helpful. Is there a realistic way forward to get information on John SMyth, or should I just forget it?
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Findmypast may have his service record online. There would have been artillery in Waterford, but as the name suggests the barracks would have housed infantry as well.
You should also check the regimental BMDs on Findmypast. They are not complete but they include lots of home events. They give regiment in the index. It would help if you gave her forename, together with that of her mother.
Ken
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I am very grateful to you KM. I took the subscription to FindMyPast and found HIM. You were also right about infantry being at Waterford. John was not RA but infantry. His marriage to my great-grandmother, Sarah, is recorded in his service papers and, for once, family myths had some substance, he was twice posted to Aldershot. Nine pages of service record with extensive detail will need to be scrutinised carefully.
It was Rootschat that helped locate my other great-grandfather and put me in touch with relatives I did not know I had. As I said then, the grand tradition of dedicated, knowledgeable amateurs thrives and demonstrates that the lovers-of-wisdom don't do it for the money.
Many thanks
E
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Which regiment was he in? Waterford was in the district with headquarters in Clonmel, and the Royal Irish Regiment (18th of Foot) were the local infantry. But it could be another regiment on station.
Ken
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59th Foot, which towards the latter end of his service became the East Lancs - his transfer is noted. This is my first view of Service Records of this period and they are not exactly models of Pitman's Office Practice. I have not yet loaded the enhanced reader which may improve things but will not compensate for my contextual ignorance. Where he served is a bit higgledy-piggledy but has him in Ireland at the critical time for the birth of daughter, Margaret. The marriage to wife, Sarah, is recorded with clarity. He does not seem to have been with the 59th in all the places recorded on the Wiki entry for that regiment. His service in NewZealand is very clear but I will need to get a paper chart to get the rest of the ducks in line. I noticed, when I first Googled, Muster Rolls were mentioned. These might help with location, but I am not sure.
E
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Does anyone know when the military records for persons prior to 1873 might be released ? As my John Nixon was not present in the 1873-1880s Royal Artilllery batch I am keen to follow up as and when ?
Cheers
Robert
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Hi Robert...
You may find this site particularly interesting and helpful,....i did!
http://www.victorianwars.com/index.php?sid=fb36216c62bc9c8665d24aa7d9887606
As i recall (and I think it varied from regmnt) a typical sign up was for 12 years. Generally the soldier would serve 6 years active, followed by 6 years in reserve, where he would assume a normal civilian life but be subject to recall. Some soldiers had a 7/5 arrangement.
I'm not 100% sure of the specifics of the above, but that's my recollection.
Anyway, best of luck, you'll love the Victorian War Foum site.
Darren
p.s. the there is a similar site for the Great War Forum ; if you should ever need it
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The records for 1760 to 1872 are online at Finfmypast now. Those for 1855-1872 have been online for a little while and 1760-1854 were released a couple of days ago
Mean_genie
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Many thanks for advice DarrenMW and Mean_genie.
I will follow up the leads you have mentioned.
Cheers
Robert
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Hi
I recently looked at the UK 1871 Census for Woolwich London and found a person of interest - he may well be the John Nixon I 'seek'.
A John Nixon aged 24 Corporal Royal Artillery and born in Ireland c1847 is present for the Census. I assume he might have traveled there for a course - is there any way of pursuing this lead with any
surviving records ?
I have attempted to find a service record for my John Nixon without success - I assume it has been lost.
Any suggestions would be welcome.
Cheers
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Hi All
Well its a year on from my last post and I have found out that John Nixon was born on 1 August 1846 and baptised in St Marys Church, Delvin, Co Westmeath. I visited Ireland in May and managed to track down the Church of Ireland records in Dublin.
Beyond this fact I have no further information on him so his life remains a mystery !
Pity I could not locate his military record.....
Cheers
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Hi All
I have now managed to trace John Nixon in UK military records at Kew with the help of an expert researcher:
John Nixon’s military career with the Royal Artillery (RA) lasted 7.5 years from May 1868 to November 1875. During this time he held four ranks as he was promoted from Gunner to Bombardier to Corporal (1869) and finally to Sergeant (1871). He appears to have spent most of his time on the Isle of Wight and was also present at Woolwich Depot.
The first trace for John as a Bombardier is in late 1868 at Portsmouth attached to the 6th Brigade. He had joined that unit in May 1868. His trade at the time of his enlistment was registered as a carpenter born in Castletown Delvin, Ireland. Later that year this unit was merged with the remnants of the 21st brigade (Ex Indian Army) which had recently returned from Bombay. He held the rank of Bombardier (7th Battery) by the time the first muster was held for the reformed 21st brigade in April 1869.
In April 1871 he was present at Woolwich barracks and recorded as an Irish ‘stray’ in the UK Census. This fact has enabled his military career to be traced as units present at Woolwich then are known and can be researched. The fate of his actual service record can now be established – he was never a ‘Chelsea Pensioner’ (ie never received a military pension) consequently his service record has not survived. Nevertheless the War Office muster, pay and nominal roll records and the married establishment records permit a reasonably detailed description of his military career.
Further research indicates he was promoted to Cpl on the 16th of Sept 1869 and promoted to Sgt. on the 19th of December 1871. During that period he'd been detached to the 2nd Divisional Depot Brigade at Woolwich. So it is now clear that the studio photograph of him taken in a Kingstown studio in Ireland, must date between September 1869 and December 1871.
In early 1875 he married Emma Blandford (probably on the Isle of Wight) and the marriage was duly noted on the battery records as from 12 January 1875. Emma was the daughter of James Blandford, publican of the Kings Head tavern, Quay St Yarmouth IOW. A local newspaper reference dated 1860 indicates that James had once been assaulted by 4 corporals from the Royal Artillery. This reference confirms that the tavern was a favourite meeting place for the local RA personnel and perhaps it is not surprising that 15 years later a marriage between John and James’ daughter Emma eventuated early in 1875.
In November 1875 he left the Royal Artillery by purchase. This would have required a substantial amount of cash, perhaps 3-4 month’s salary. It is the reason his service record has not survived. The most probable reason for John’s departure from the Royal Artillery was the impending transfer of his unit to India in January 1876.
Interestingly John’s departure from the Royal Artillery coincided with his brother Henry joining the NSW Government Railways in November of the same year. It is not clear if they managed to maintain contact with each other at this time but family stories refer to them travelling to the US and to Australia. It is possible that John settled in the US but no direct evidence to confirm this has yet been located in the US historical record.
Further research in UK records may establish whether or not he remained in the UK and if so for how long.
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The marriage was at the parish church in Yarmouth on 12 January 1875. See http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=7&CATID=-6451403&j=1
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Thanks Shaun J
I have ordered a copy from the UK GRO.
Cheers
Robert
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HI All
I have now narrowed down the date for John Nixon's studio photo to the period April 1871-December 1871 using his military records.
He was paid 1d extra per day from the beginning of April 1871 for good conduct and he became a Sgt in December of that year.
As the studio shot shows him in a corporals uniform with an inverted chevron on his lower right arm he is receiving the 1d extra per day. Hence the photo is post 1 April 1871 and pre 19th December 1871 when he was promoted to Sgt.
Cheers
Robert
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Hi,
Have just come across this post and wondered if you could find any mention of a Charles Alfred Nicholl in the service records. He was at the Brompton Barracks of School of Military Engineering in 1881 census age 21
He seems to have disappeared into the mists of time and I have placed a separate post on the London Board in an attempt to find him before finding this more specific subject.
Any help would be appreciated in finding his service records.
Alan
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Hi,
Just found some records -
Service Number 5495
4 Brigade Royal Artillery
Discharged 1888 - To Reserve
Believe he attested 3 May 1878 Woolwich, spent a year in India 1886/87
Alan