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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: AH on Thursday 06 May 10 11:48 BST (UK)
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Hi
I think I have located some of my ancestors living in an area which I think was near the dublin docks. I am trying to find out whether their adresses gives me any clues one their occupations and general life. They are all in the Parish of St Andrews Dublin and the addresses are Clarence Place , Sir Johns Quay, and Learys place?
I have tried googling Dublin Docks but just come up with modern stuff. I did a search through the posts in roots chat and came across some older postings by Christopher but sadly the links were broken. I know absolutely nothing about Dublin as a city but Im guessing the dock area would be like a dock area in any big industrial city?
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If you post the years your ancestors lived at those addresses I can possibly look up some details on the residents and types of business etc in the area at the time
Shane
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Hi
That would be great! I have only births from between 1869 and 1875. Basically Thomas Cassen married Sarah Carter on 24/01/1869 (He was of 6, Leary's Cottages, she of 34 Sir Johns Quay).
Their children were:
Anne Casson 1869; 7 Leary's Place
Hanna Cassins 1871; 34 Sir Johns Quay
Sarah Cassin 1874: 16 Clarence Place
Patrick Cassin 1875: 16 Clarence Place.
Thomas, Annie and Patrick (and possibly Sarah?) then end up in 1894 in Salford Manchester.
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Both Clarence Place and Sir John Rogersons Quay still exist and are very close to each other - see 1885 map below and modern google map - Sir John Rogersons quay to Clarence Place (http://www.google.ie/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=sir+john+rogersons+quay&daddr=Clarence+Place,+dublin&hl=en&geocode=FeX-LQMdJs2g_ylpxHdJ7Q5nSDEBsXXhf4nJOw%3BFcnvLQMdxr6g_ylD2_5ykw5nSDHU-9Kypc-H2g&mra=ls&sll=53.342114,-6.272912&sspn=0.041508,0.117416&ie=UTF8&ll=53.343865,-6.240277&spn=0.005611,0.015643&z=16).
The 1885 map gives some idea of the type of area. I havn't found the location of Leary's Place yet, but will have further look this evening when I check the street listings.
Shane
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Hi
Thanks for the map! :)
The area looks quite industrial (with gas works etc) do you think it would be a sort of inner city slum area like you see in Victorian Manchester and Salford?
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I'll have to check the details for the other addresses but at most times Sir John Rogerson's Quay was a mix of businesses (trading, shipping, ship supplies etc), tenements, day-to-day businesses like shops, pubs, dairies etc mixed in with a few more wealthy occupants.
Shane
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hi Shane and ah my grandparents lived in the same area i believe is it possible to show the area their names were James fewings clarence st /bridget masterson grenville st i understand they married in april 1899 and a kathleen fanning 1899 north cumberland st any info please :)
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AH,
If you're interested in the social and industrial history of the area I can recommend a book, A History of the Port of Dublin by H.A. Gilligan, ISBN 0-7171-1578-X.
The best indication you will get of your rellies occupations will come from birth and marriage records or for later years, the 1901 and 1911 census.
Dara.
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hi Shane and ah my grandparents lived in the same area i believe is it possible to show the area their names were James fewings clarence st /bridget masterson grenville st i understand they married in april 1899 and a kathleen fanning 1899 north cumberland st any info please :)
Grenville street is just off Mountjoy Square on Dublin's northsdie and North Cumberland St is close-by and near to Parnell St (frmly Gt. Britain St) see modern google map Grenville street to North Cumberland st (http://www.google.ie/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=north+cumberland+st&daddr=grenville+st,++dublin&hl=en&geocode=FawbLgMd9oKg_yn1Kd1Jhg5nSDGlYMR6wNVQhQ%3BFd4jLgMdboCg_ynFhc-Whw5nSDGmWHpdCBtEKg&mra=ls&sll=53.355265,-6.258667&sspn=0.005609,0.015643&ie=UTF8&ll=53.354528,-6.258076&spn=0.00292,0.007854&z=17)
see map below for the locations in 1885. (South Cumberland Street was on the south side of the city off Gt. Brunswick St, now Pearse St)
do you know house/building numbers for either of these ?
Shane
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thanks shane i beleive james fewings lived at 44 clarence st bridget fewings nee masterson lived at15 grenville st kathleen fanning lived at 16 north cumberland st born 1899 adopted or taken in by my grandparents not sure they were married in dublin about april 1899 a mystery to me cheers :)
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....Thomas Cassen married Sarah Carter on 24/01/1869 (He was of 6, Leary's Cottages, she of 34 Sir Johns Quay).
Their children were:
Anne Casson 1869; 7 Leary's Place
Hanna Cassins 1871; 34 Sir Johns Quay
Sarah Cassin 1874: 16 Clarence Place
Patrick Cassin 1875: 16 Clarence Place.
....
Leary's place is listed as being off Townsend St, but no details are included in Thom's ('77). The Townsend St listing does not mention where the junction with Leary's place was located. I suspect Leary's cottages would have possibly been near to this. Townsend St - mostly businesses and shops (all kinds)
The 1877 listing for no. 34 Rogerson's Quay/Sir John Rogersons Quay has P. Slevin, boot and shoe maker. Other nearby addresses include a corn merchant, ship smith, grocer & spirit merch, timber & slate stores, patent rope manuf. & Russian merch., ship broker, oyster merch. etc. I dont see any tenements on the street at that time, so it does appear to be a reasonable (but probably very busy) area to live.
Details of Clarence place are not listed, but the street it is off (Gt. Clarence St South) looks to me like nice mix of private houses, shops and businesses. The Grand Canal Street end has a grocer, a few stone masons, carpenters etc. Most of the rest of the street is occupied by private residents including an inspector with the DMP (police). Quite a few do not have occupations listed which usually means they are well off.
The streets which are not listed in Thom's directories were usually the slightly less well off side streets, with just smaller tenements or cottages, and no businesses, shops or prominent residents.
Shane
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thanks shane i beleive james fewings lived at 44 clarence st bridget fewings nee masterson lived at15 grenville st kathleen fanning lived at 16 north cumberland st born 1899 adopted or taken in by my grandparents not sure they were married in dublin about april 1899 a mystery to me cheers :)
There's actually two Clarence streets, one on either side of the Liffey and some distance apart.
North Great Clarence St - from North Strand to Summer Hill
South Great Clarence St - from Grand Canal St to Brunswick St
The Nrt Gt. Clarence St would be nearer to the other locations you mentioned. You may be able to tell which one applies as the registration district on any certs will either be Dublin North or South to match the street.
Shane
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attached an extract from the 1885 map showing Grenville street and North Cumberland st along with North Great Clarence St
Shane
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... i beleive james fewings lived at 44 clarence st
....bridget fewings nee masterson lived at15 grenville st ........
....not sure they were married in dublin about april 1899 ...
there's possible marriage for James and Bridget on the Civil index in 1899, that might be worth a try :
Name: James Richard Fewings
Registration District: Dublin North
Event Type: Marriage
Quarter and Year: Apr - Jun 1899
Volume : 2 / Page : 476
Name: Bridget Masterson
[same index details]
Shane
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Leary's Place was just by No.92 Townsend Street (per Thoms 1911). I have no entries of interest to you except general property entries but the following from my Irish Times source work may be of interest:
4/2/1876 Page 3 Law Report Thomas Casson - granted alchol licence
27/10/1876 Page 3 Law Report Thomas Cassin - denied alchol licence and see 19/1/1877 Page 3 Law Report
Both the above entries relate to No.16 Clarence Place. The following may be of interest to you but the only address I have is Cumberland Street (North or South ??)
12th December 1866 Mr Fanning- arrested for Fenian Activity.
Regards Quaxer
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thanks quaxer and shane could you point me in the right direction to obtain b/d/m certificates in Dublin thank you :)
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.... could you point me in the right direction to obtain b/d/m certificates in Dublin thank you
see the Topic : 2 Minute Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html) for details on searching the BMD index, ordering certs etc
Shane
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Hi
Thanks so much for all the info. Its fascinating! The area sounds really lively and interesting! Its nice to imagine people living positive lives!! I think I'll see if I can find books with any old photo's of the area
I had a look for the book Oaks and Acorns suggested but it was £82 on amazon which is a bit more than I can afford! I'll have to keep my eyes open in second hand bookshops
The news about the alcohol license is really interesting. I wonder why a license was granted then revoked 8 months later?
Im afraid I havent come across and Fewings, Mastersons or Fannings in my family tree yet. I dont know much about the history of Dublin either (although Im determined to find out more!) so Im afraid I cant contribute much Nathansgrandad :(
Thanks to all ;D
AH
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...Thanks so much for all the info. Its fascinating! The area sounds really lively and interesting! Its nice to imagine people living positive lives!! I think I'll see if I can find books with any old photo's of the area....
The National Library of Ireland has a great collection of historic photos online that could include some of the area - see : http://digital.nli.ie/
Shane
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Hi
That would be great! I have only births from between 1869 and 1875. Basically Thomas Cassen married Sarah Carter on 24/01/1869 (He was of 6, Leary's Cottages, she of 34 Sir Johns Quay).
Their children were:
Anne Casson 1869; 7 Leary's Place
Hanna Cassins 1871; 34 Sir Johns Quay
Sarah Cassin 1874: 16 Clarence Place
Patrick Cassin 1875: 16 Clarence Place.
Thomas, Annie and Patrick (and possibly Sarah?) then end up in 1894 in Salford Manchester.
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Thomas Cassin (also spelt Casson, Cassins) and Sarah Carter are my Great Grandparents. I have lots of information I would be happy to share...Shaun
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attached an extract from the 1885 map showing Grenville street and North Cumberland st along with North Great Clarence St
Shane
That is an interesting looking map you are using. Is there a name on it and where can I find a copy?
Gerry ;)
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That is an interesting looking map you are using. Is there a name on it and where can I find a copy?
Gerry ;)
I've put a digitized Google maps version of it online - see Dublin City 1885 (http://roots.swilson.info/dublin1885/Dublin1885.html)
Shane
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M father's family Dolan were living in 45 Clarence Street South Docks for the 1911 census now Macken Street iI understand Anyone got a details map for that are a and time
Jim
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Clarence Street (South) ran north from Grand Canal Street and across Gt. Brunswick St. (Now Pearse St.), and was just west of Grand Canal Dock - see :
Gt. Clarence Street (South) (http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,717102,733908,7,9) (OSI Map)
Select the 25" option, which dates from about 1890.
you can also see the street on this slightly later map :
Dublin City - 1912 (http://roots.swilson.info/dublin1912/dublin1912.html)
Number 45 was located on the west side of the street, just south of the junction with Gt. Brunswick St.
Shane
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Shane ,
Thanks for the location and the 1912 map Do you know are there any pictures available of the area or Street around th this time 1900 ish
Regards Jim
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A good place to try for old photos is the online collection at the National Library Website.
See : NLI Catalogue (http://goo.gl/yiyHr)
Shane
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hi
I am looking for details of a Bridget Murphy who was born in 1877. She had a sister and brother who were born in 1878/76. with an address of 19 Sandwith Place. This was her Mother's 2nd family.
Her Mother married a James McKeon in 1868, he has an address of 23 Sandwith Place, the Mother Margaret Darcy has an address of 27 Gt. Clarence place, and a year later an address of 1 Clarence Place, where bridget's stepbrother Michael was born.
I find your details about this area very interesting, and wondering would you have ant insights on these addresses. Thanking you.
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Sandwith Place was off Sandwith Street, but unfortunately it's not listed in the street listings on Thom's 1877 or 1879, which sometimes happens with the smaller side streets and lanes, especially if there were no businesses, public buildings or prominent individuals living on the street.
You can see Sandwith place just north of Gt. Brunswick Street (now Pearse St.) on the c1890 OSI map - Sandwith Place (http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,716823,734079,7,9) (select the 25" historic option for a c1890 map)
The earliest details I've found for Sandwith Place are from the building returns on the 1901 census - although the street could have changed a bit by then. In 1901 there were about 39 buildings, most of which seem to be smallish houses with 1, 2 or 3 windows in the front, many of which are shared by 3 or more families.
There doesn't appear to be any businesses or shops on the street at that time. In 1901 there are total of 62 families living on the street consisting of 304 people.
Great Clarence place was off South Great Clarance Street (there's another Clarence St northside) off Grand Canal street. It's the opposite side of Gt. Brunswick Street - so very close to Sandwith Place. see Great Clarence Place (http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,717028,733873,7,9)
Shane
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Sandwith Place was off Sandwith Street, but unfortunately it's not listed in the street listings on Thom's 1877 or 1879, which sometimes happens with the smaller side streets and lanes, especially if there were no businesses, public buildings or prominent individuals living on the street.
You can see Sandwith place just north of Gt. Brunswick Street (now Pearse St.) on the c1890 OSI map - Sandwith Place (http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,716823,734079,7,9) (select the 25" historic option for a c1890 map)
The earliest details I've found for Sandwith Place are from the building returns on the 1901 census - although the street could have changed a bit by then. In 1901 there were about 39 buildings, most of which seem to be smallish houses with 1, 2 or 3 windows in the front, many of which are shared by 3 or more families.
There doesn't appear to be any businesses or shops on the street at that time. In 1901 there are total of 62 families living on the street consisting of 304 people.
Great Clarence place was off South Great Clarance Street (there's another Clarence St northside) off Grand Canal street. It's the opposite side of Gt. Brunswick Street - so very close to Sandwith Place. see Gtreat Clarence Place (http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,717028,733873,7,9)
C
Shane
Thank you Shane for that information.
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Shane
Thank you for that information.
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Funny you should mention Clarence and Sandwich. My family (Kenny & Mulville) was listed at those addresses as well.
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M father's family Dolan were living in 45 Clarence Street South Docks for the 1911 census now Macken Street iI understand Anyone got a details map for that are a and time
Jim
https://www.dublinhistoricmaps.ie/boundaries/1901-1911-census-divisions/index.html
to check electoral divisions, float mouse cursor over area of 25-inch map to identify its DED
Heh, didn't realise I was replying to a 21-year-old post! Oh well, if you see it and if you're in Dublin, maybe take the Old Liffey Ferry Tour - they bring groups around the docks in the little ferryboat that was used to cross the river until recently, with local people doing the guiding.
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Heh, didn't realise I was replying to a 21-year-old post!
My maths says its a 13 year old thread ;D ;D
Thomas Cassin (also spelt Casson, Cassins) and Sarah Carter are my Great Grandparents.
Thomas CASSAN married Sarah CARTER on 24 January 1869 in south Dublin.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1869/11410/8190475.pdf
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Heh, didn't realise I was replying to a 21-year-old post!
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My maths says its a 13 year old thread ;D ;D
Maths isn't my strong point! Quote from: dolan64 on Thursday 02 February 12 14:08 GMT (UK)
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Heh, didn't realise I was replying to a 21-year-old post!
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My maths says its a 13 year old thread ;D ;D
Maths isn't my strong point! Quote from: dolan64 on Thursday 02 February 12 14:08 GMT (UK)
??? ???
Something got mixed up here.