RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Christine Lockett on Sunday 13 September 09 10:49 BST (UK)
-
I am looking for decedents of James and Agnes Disher who along with their daughter Elizabeth immigrated to Australia around about 1888-89 ???
-
Hi Christine
As this is posted in the Scotland board, did they have other children who stayed behind in Scotland and so produced descendants in Scotland (of James & Agnes)?
Cheers
AMBLY
-
No they didn't leave any living children behind they had twins that they buried. Just thought that maybe James would of had brothers and sisters as his parents gave him so many 1,000.00 pounds and asked him to leave Scotland. Story goes that it was because he married Agnes Ross who was a Innkeepers daughter.
Just trying to find something. James was an Engineer and was told that his father was a Doctor.
-
Hi Christine
Have you tried searching for a marriage in Scotland for James and Agnes?
Monica :)
-
Not seeing any marriage for them in Scotland Christine :-\ Searching on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk which is the official pay to view BMD site for Scotland.
Monica
-
Hi Monica,
Thanks for doing that I couldn't find one either just thought was looking in wrong place. That is really puzzling, was told that maybe James Disher was Jewish but the marrage should still be registered.
Their daughter name was Elizabeth Sutherland McKenzie and she was born in 8/3/1887 but I can't find any birth registered either. Although my Grandmother (Elizabeth) said that she was born in Gateshead that her mother was visiting her father who was working at Gateshead (that's in England yes?)
Thanks again,
Chris
-
Gateshead is in England, in the county of Northumberland.
Just checking for any info on the family. There is a tree on Ancestry which I think may be this line. It shows:
James Disher and Agnes MacDonald Ross (father x Ross, mother Jean MacDonald). Children:
James Disher b. 1886
Ellen Kelvin Disher b. 1888
Adelaide Disher b. 1890 d. 1892
Agnes Disher b. 1892
Thomas Mann Disher b. 1894
Charlotte Disher b. 1898
All births in Queensland. A possible death for Agnes Ross showing as 23 Feb. 1924
No mention of an Elizabeth in the list of children which sort of throws things off line!
Monica
-
this is getting stranger my Grandmother was the eldest born in 1887 came to Australia when she was 18 months old. Not sure if she was 18 months when they left Scotland or when they arrived in Australia there are 5 other children
James, Thomas, May, Dot (not short for Dorothy) Agnes
Thanks for all you help Monica will just have to keep looking. I can trace my mothers fathers family which is Phillips and when my Grandmother married my Grandfather and when his family (Phillips) arrived in Australia. It is just the Dishers that are proving hard to trace.
Chris
-
Have you tried searching for the death certs for James and Agnes?
...Waiting for Ambly here to come back on line - she's a whizz on Aussie records and could point the way ;D
Monica
-
hi all :)
have had a look on my 1881 discs for james disher's in scotland
there are only 5
only 2 look possibles agewise one a hawker other jute worker
there are none showing in england(1881) on familysearch
ev
-
Monica :)
apart from james all births for children are on the official queensland site
with parents
the names that Chris has aren't that far away ie ellen = elizabeth , dot =
charlotte :-\
ev
-
Hi All
Thanks for the vote of confidence Monica ;D ;D the ladies of the Aussie boards are the real whizzes though! If we can't progress here, I wonder if a new topic on that board may help, linked to this one......
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/3685257?searchTerm=%22James+DISHER%22
James DISHER died in 28 Dec 1898, under tragic circumstance.
Left wife "Aggie" and 6 children.
From the QLD BDM site
DEATH: Adelaide DISHER, daughter of James DISHER & Agnes ROSS, died in 1892 (as Chris has noted above)
So this infers the 6 children who survived their father, includes Elizabeth
DEATH: James DISHER, registered 1899,
Son of Thomas Daniel DISHER and Mary REED
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=404423.msg2730375;topicseen
Someone else is searching for :
Elizabeth Sutherlan McKenzie Phillips - nee Disher, but unknown father
Married name was PHILLIPS - Note repeated reference to middle name as "Sutherlan" - no "d"
Cheers
AMBLY
-
IGI Extracted record:
Thomas Daniel DISHER and Mary Ann REID
married 4 Dec 1848, Glasgow
Cheers
AMBLY
-
Children showing to this couple:
1. ADAM REID DISHER Birth: 28 FEB 1860 Calton, Glasgow
2. JOHN SWANSTON DISHER Birth: 31 JUL 1861 Calton, Glasgow
3. MARGARET REID DISHER Birth: 22 JUN 1863 Calton, Glasgow
4. ANDREW DISHER Birth: 21 FEB 1856 Calton, Glasgow
5. THOMAS DANIEL DISHER Birth: 23 FEB 1858 Calton, Glasgow
So son James born before 1855?
Monica
-
The family's 1861 entry (struggling with the other years at present) - all the children born in Glasgow:
Thomas D Disher 32, Accoucheur ::) - as transcribed, b, USA
Mary Ann Disher 37, b. Ireland
William Disher 11
James Disher 7
Andrew Disher 5
Thomas D Disher 3
Ross Ann Gallacher 54
Address: 81 London St, Calton, Glasgow
Monica
-
And in 1851:
Thomas Disher 22, Silk Hat Body Maker, b. USA
Mary Disher 22, b. Glasgow
William Disher 1, b. Glasgow
Address: 105 Stockwell Street, Glasgow
Monica
-
OOh, that's interesting! Dad born in America!!
Just found another interesting entries on QLD BMD:
DEATH: 1889 - Alexander Sharp DISHER
Parents: Thomas Daniel DISHER and Jane Smith HUNTER
DEATH: 1908 - Thomas Daniel DISHER
Parents: Thomas Daniel DISHER and Mary Ann REID
Picking the 1889 death is infant son of the man who died 1908
So, James was not alone in (supposed) exile ;D
Cheers
AMBLY
-
Hmm, Nothing like a Doctor* ;) & looking increasingly unlikely James' father paid him good money to go away with his unsuitable wife!
*stand corrected if he was a "male midwife" (see below) ! but I still bet he wasn't well off.
It would also seem, Elizabeth was less than truthful about her age - if the 6 children born to James and Agnes in Australia started in 1886. More than likely she was older than she made out? The only other thing I can think of is that she was Agnes' daughter but was concieved after James DISHER died - but would make her a good 10 years younger than Chris knows her to be?
Cheers
AMBLY
-
1871: Brae, St Ninians, Stirlingshire
Parish 488, ED 11, pg 29, HS 169
Head: Mary Reid DISHER 46, Winder, b Irl (Ireland)
Son: Andrew K DISHER 15, Head Stever??, b Glasgow
1871: 165 Stobcross St - Anderston, Barony Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Parish 644/8 - ED 64, Pg 9, HS 54
Alexander SHARP 35, Night watchman in factory, b England
Wife: Elizabeth SHARP 36, b Ireland
Cousin: Thomas DISHER 12, Scholar, b Glasgow
(his son - well assumed son of TD DISHER jnr - who died 1889 QLD was named Alexander Sharp DISHER)
Cheers
AMBLY
-
That's great Ambly :) So, possibly a death for Thomas Daniel Snr between 1861-71. I'll see if anything shows on SP...
Monica
-
Thomas Daniel Disher died in 1867 in Calton, Glasgow with a birth year of 1830. Has to be the correct entry, specially with the use of the middle name.
Monica
-
Oh, Ambly, I've just gone back and read that newspaper link you put up regarding James Disher's death....poor man....poor family :'(
Monica
-
I know, isn't is so sad! :'( What a thing to happen - imagine the horror for his poor Aggie.
I just got back too - waking children ::)
I've found Andrew DISHER, James brother, and he's in Northumberland in 1901 I think.....his age is a bit out but I think it's him; naming pattern of his 1st son, 2nd daughter fits his parents as being Thomas and Mary:
1891: 13 Newton St Private House - Partick, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Parish: 646/3, ED 1 , pg 31, HS 138
Head: Andrew DISHER 52 **,Iron Driller, b Glasgow (**as transcribed - probably a mis-read of 30-something)
Wife: Helen DISHER 27, b Kingstown, Morayshire
Dau: Jeanie DISHER 2, b England
1901: 19 Coventry Street - Byker, Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland
RG13 / Piece: 4792 / Folio: 26 / Page: 44
Head: Andrew DISHER 47, Driller Boiler [worker], b Scotland
Wife: Helen 38, b Scotland
Dau: Jane J 13, b Scotland
Son: Tom 10, b Scotland
Dau: Mary 5, b Scotland
Dau: Jessie 3, b Scotland
Uncle: John Alexander (John A) ADAMS 14, H?eater, Shipyd, b Scotland
Boarder: Thomas HALL 56, mar, Coal Hewer at mines, b NK England
Boarder: Mary J HALL 44, marr, b NK England
The "Uncle" is clearly stated as age 14 - and there is a notation next to his name "W.J.W.W." - no idea what that means - it's not written by the enumerator, possibly by his supervisor, and maybe it's some kind of statistical code. I wonder if John was the Nephew and Andrew was the Uncle (or Uncle in law).
Tree on A**
Andrew DISHER married Helen GEDDES - 2 Feb 1888, Glasgow
Son: Tom DISHER born 10 Jul 1892 in Partick Lanarkshire (Glasgow), died 1930 Dennistoun Lanarkshire
married 1917 in Alloa, Calckmannanshire to: Annie Smith GOLDIE b Larkhall, Lanarkshire, died 1971 Alloa
3 children, 1917, 1919, 1921 (won't name for privacy)
Cheers
AMBLY
-
Hmmm - have a read of this:
http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/SCT-FIFE/1999-01/0917214806
says in part about Thomas Daniel DISHER snr:
Thomas was a Surgeon-Accoucheur - which we suppose to be some kind of gynaecologist.
The Glasgow Property Register for, I think, 1860, shows him as having a
shop/consulting room and a house, but I have no note of the address. The
Property Register is available at the Mitchell Library - Family
History/Local History Floor - in Glasgow, which is a fantastic family
history resource. I do not know whether it is on line.
Cheers
AMBLY
-
He was a male midwife??
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Accoucheur
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=2105
and yikes....
http://www.fcgapultoscollection.com/antique.html
Cheers
AMBLY
-
That's an interesting link Ambly :)
Also, from your post before that, there is at least some Disher connections with Northumberland. Just thinking of Chris' comment:
Although my Grandmother (Elizabeth) said that she was born in Gateshead that her mother was visiting her father who was working at Gateshead
Can't link that up to fact as yet but at least there were some Disher family members in the right part of the country!
Chris, don't suppose you have been able to verify your Grandmother Elizabeth's birth place from any document?
Monica :)
-
Wow, I've just seen your last entry......and I've got to rush off on the school run for which I am already late 8) Catch up later!
Monica
-
Got to tear myself away and to bed - Antipodean time! Or else it'll be me late for the school run in the morning 8) not that that's never happened before ;)
Cheers
AMBLY
-
Children in bed, had supper and brain has re-engaged ;D
I think I have found Thomas Daniel Disher's family. The family look to be Scottish and travelled to the US in 1827 on the 'Brig Tom' arriving in New York on 2 July that year, port of departure shows as Greenock, Renfrewshire. From the manifest we have - everyone born in Scotland:
William Disher 30, joiner
Dianna Disher 31
Margaret Disher 6
William Disher 3
James Disher 1
Then back in Scotland for the 1841 census we have - everyone showing as born in the county:
William Disher 45, Journeyman Joiner
Dianna Disher 40
Margaret Disher 21
William Disher 17, trunk maker
James Disher 13
James Disher 10...two James? maybe on Jane or something similar
Thomas Disher 7
Andrew Disher 5
Janet Disher 3
George Disher 1
Address: High St, Glasgow St Pauls
There is one of the children's births showing on IGI www.familysearch.org which gives mother's maiden name as SHORT (there may be more entries showing on the Old Parish Registers on Scotlands People).
MARGARET DISHER Birth:06 MAR 1820 Glasgow
Parents: WILLIAM DISHER and DIANA SHORT
The parents' banns/marriage show on 21 AUG 1818 also in Glasgow.
Chris, with Thomas Daniel (likely) having died in Glasgow, his death certificate, if you view it on line on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, will include his parents' names including mother's maiden name and father's occupation if known to the informant.
Monica :)
-
Just been trying to find the family in 1851 but no joy :-\
Showing in Glasgow are Thomas and Mary, the entry we have from earlier and likely entry for brother (we think!) William:
William Disher 28, Packing Box Maker b. Glasgow
Eliza Disher 24 b. Glasgow
William Disher 3 b. Glasgow
John Disher 1 b. Glasgow
Austien Disher 17, brother, tin smith, b. Glasgow
Elizabeth McGee 19, servant b. Ireland
Agnes Meighan 15, servant b. Ireland
Patrick Fagan 31, lodger, mason b. england
John McKay 33, lodger, policeman b. Ross
Address: 76 Gallowgate Str, Glasgow
There is a tree for William above, showing as son to William and Diana Short. Married to an Ann Maria Macreadie who I think may be a second wife. From 1861:
William Disher 37, trunk and packing case maker
Anna Maria Disher 37, b. Ireland
Elizabeth Disher 11
Mary Disher 2
Hugh Disher 4
Margaret Sibbald 30, servant
Address: 184 Gallowgate St, Calton Glasgow
This tree on Ancestry is quite sparse. William Snr is showing as having died in 1845 and mother Diana in 1843 - the source of the info is not shown.
Monica
-
James Disher's mother Mary Ann Reid, looks to have lived to a fine age, dieing in Scotland, from general searches, in 1905 (birth year of 1825). A Mary Disher/Reid shows as having died in Galashiels, Selkirkshire that year.
Ambly has already posted her entry in 1871, a few years after husband Thomas' death in 1865. This looks like her in 1881, transcribed as Disker on the index I am looking at:
Jane Morton 65, Winder In Woolen Mill, b. Ireland
William Morton 24, tweed weaver b. Glasgow
Eliza Morton 30, tweed weaver b. Glasgow
Jane Morton 29, tweed weaver b. Glasgow
Mary Disker 56, sister, Winder In Woolen Mill, b. Ireland
Address: Galashiels, Selkirkshire
Mary alone in 1891:
Mary Dishart, 67, Woolen-Winder, b. Ireland
Address: 13 Elm Row, Galashiels
Life not so good by 1901, not long before her death in 1905. She shows as living at the Mossilee Road Combination Poor House in Galashiels. Her entry somewhat messy in the way it has been transcribed (name and age), the original would hopefully be clearer:
Mary Reid Dislur, 44, Woollen Yarn Winder b. Ireland
Monica
-
Wow Monica - that's some good finds; certainley them, I'd say. (William & Dianna) So there's certainley a lot of DISHERs now for Chris to try 'follow' down. :)
No closer to dechiphering Elizabeth Sunderlan McKenzie ROSS though....or her mother. Can't find a thing that even resembles a bell ringing!
So this is what we have and haven't found with James DISHER and his siblings, I think?
1. William DISHER b abt 1850
1851 with parents in LNK
1861 with parents in LNK
Post 1861?
2. James DISHER b abt 1854; Engineer
1861 with parents in LNK
1871? (not with mother, who is in Stirling with brother Andrew)
1881?
1882-1886?
1886-1898 children x 6 born in Australia
1898 Died in Australia
3. ANDREW DISHER Birth: 21 FEB 1856 Calton, Glasgow
1861 with parents in Lanarkshire
1871 with mother in Sterlingshire
1881?
1888 married Helen Geddes in Lanarkshire
1891 Partick Lanarkshire with wife
1901 Byker Northumberland with wife/children
4. THOMAS DANIEL DISHER Birth: 23 FEB 1858 Calton, Glasgow
1861 with parents in Lanarkshire
1871 with cousin, the Alexander SHARP's in Lanarkshire
1881 boarding with the SHARP's in Lanarkshire
1886 Married in Australia
1887-1900 Children x 6, born in Australia
1908 Died in Australia
5. ADAM REID DISHER Birth: 28 FEB 1860 Calton, Glasgow
1860 - prob died Calton Glasgow (SP Index search)
6. JOHN SWANSTON DISHER Birth: 31 JUL 1861 Calton, Glasgow
1865 - prob died Calton Glasgow (SP Index search)
7. MARGARET REID DISHER Birth: 22 JUN 1863 Calton, Glasgow
1871?
1879 Poss died age 15 in Lanarkshire (but not registered Calton Glasgow)
and Elizabeth's mother, not much luck with her either:
Agnes McDonald ROSS
Born abt 1861 Scotland(from Death registration 1924 age 63)
Father : ROSS (ditto)
Mother Jean McDONALD (ditto)
Supposed to be an Innkeepers daughter
Supposed to be in Gateshead visting her husband James, when Elizabeth was born 8 Mar 1886 - Agnes & John had a son born in Australia in that year - technically possible to have had another child by the end of 1886 - what was James's exact dob in 1886?
Supposed to have come to Australia, with her husband when dau Elizabeth was 18mnths old.
Supposed to have buried twins prior to coming to Australia (unknown if these twins were born after Elizabeth or not).
Hmmm - Chris, I wonder, if any of the full BDM's on any of Agnes' Australian born children, do they contain any information at all on their mother that might differ from what's so far supposed? Have you got her actual death certificate to see what else it may contain?
Cheers
AMBLY
-
Hi Ambly
Great summary :)
This might be daughter Margaret in 1871, with the surname down as Diker:
John Swanston 48, Cotton Farm Double Master Employ 90 Perple, b. Glasgow
Margaret Swanston 16
William Swanston 15
John Swanston 12
William Swanston 72, father, Cotton Farm Doubler, b. Glasgow
David Swanston 46, brother, Cotton Farm Doubler, b. Glasgow
Jane McDowal 28, servant
Margaret McDowal 23, servant
Margaret R Dicker 8, resident b. Glasgow
Address: 1 Grafton Sqr, Glasgow
We had the son of Thomas Disher and Mary Reid b. 1861 called John SWANSTON Disher. I am guessing that the John Swanston Snr. above was Mary Reid Disher's brother in law. Some IGI birth entries showig for the children above to a John Swanston and Margaret Reid - also the name of Thomas and Mary's daughter, Margaret Reid Disher, born in 1863.
Monica
-
The only Agnes Ross showing in Scotland on IGI with mother a MacDonald (so happens first name Jane) is this one:
AGNES ROSS Birth: 07 APR 1858 Anderston, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland - parents Thomas and Jane McDonald (married on 11 DEC 1857 in Anderston, Glasgow).
This census entry made me think she may have died young - however I cannot see a death for her on SP up to 1861:
Thomas Ross 26, cabinet maker b. Ayr, Ayrshire
Jane Ross 23, b. Glasgow
Margaret K Ross 1, b. Glasgow
Jane Ross 6 Months b. Glasgow
Address: 43 South Coburg St
For a young couple, the last child showing to them as born in Scotland is Jane in 1860. Perhaps either parent died or they left Scotland.
Monica
-
;) Just found this in 1861. Could this be Agnes staying with maternal grandparents that year:
John McDonald 56, house painter b. Edinburgh, Mid Lothian
Berthia McDonald 50 b. Spakout (?spl), Dumbarton
Berthia McDonald 27, b. Helsintz, Dumbartonshire
Catherine McDonald 16, b. Glasgow
Agnes Ross 3 granddaughter b. Glasgow
Archibald Love 22 son in law, confectioner b. Glasgow
Euphemia Love 24 b. Helensburg, Dumbarton
John Love 11 Months, grandson b. Glasgow
Address: 8 Pembroke Street, Anderston, Glasgow
Chris, the marriage cert for Thomas Ross and Jane McDonald would let you confirm it is the right family for Jane McDonald (assuming at all times it is the right Agnes!)
Monica
-
Jane McDonald born to John McDonald and Bethia McAuslin March 1838 Barony (IGI)
Looks likely then Monica :)
-
Thanks Kirsty :) Certainly looks possible then.
I am wondering where Thomas, Jane and family got to after 1861. Can't see them in Scotland after this date.
Monica
-
great work Monica ;D
That's made the bells ring!
Cheers
AMBLY
-
Hi Ambly
So where do you think they could have gone - the Ross family?
Either Australia or England you would think. Chris, a lot of the info you have we have been able to find links to so that leaves us with the question of where exactly was Elizabeth born and where did James and Agnes marry.
Ambly, re William and James Disher, cannot see them in Scotland/England as yet in 1871 or 1881. Could they have initially headed off to Australia I wonder between 1861-71? The family seem to be all over the place by 1871 and following the death of father Thomas.
Monica :)
-
Hi Amby
Thanks for looking up those sites for me, read the newspaper article from Courier Mail. I would say that was my great grandfather for sure as he was employed by Evans Anderson as an engineer.
Thanks for all your help that is great. My mother always said that her grandmother Agnes use to drink a bit you think after what happened she would of stayed clear of the alcohol.
-
Hi Monica,
This is so good, so much information. Maybe they weren't married I know that James had a thousand pounds which would of been a lot of money in those days.
He had some of the money invested in sugar or a sugar mill in Bundaberg in Queensland and some in the banks and in the 1800's there was some kind of a depression and he lost the lot.
For them to be living in Bundaberg which I think they did for a short while, they would of entered Australia through Maryborough Queensland which is only half an hours drive away from where I live. My local library (Hervey Bay) has the records for the ships that entered through Maryborough.
Thanks again Monica
Chris
-
Let us know what you find Chris - we get curious here on RC ;)
Monica
-
Has taken me a while, the list of children born to James Disher and Agnes MacDonald Ross all born in Queensland listed as such:
James Disher b. 1886
Ellen Kelvin Disher b. 1888
Adelaide Disher b. 1890 d. 1892
Agnes Disher b. 1892
Thomas Mann Disher b. 1894
Charlotte Disher b. 1898
Ellen Kelvin Disher is my grandmother who I knew as Elizabeth Sutherlan McKenzie and was always told by her that she was born in 1887.
The name change and the date of birth from 1888 to 1887 I would say would because her mother wouldn't give her permission for my grandmother to marry.
She was married in 1908 which would make her 20 and she needed to be 21 so she changed her name, year of birth and place of birth to Scotland which would of been hard to trace in those days.....Oh! she was pregnant at the time too about 6 months which made it all the more urgent.
;D
-
Thanks for the update...and the solution to the puzzle :D
Monica
-
Hi Monica & Ambly,
Just thought you might like to know what I have found on James & Agnes, as you went to so much trouble for me.
Just recently discovered the registration of James Disher Jr. Birth in Kelvin Burgh Glasgow. He was born on 17/10/1885 Mother Agnes Disher M S Ross and Father is Andrew Disher (James Sr. younger brother) it states the year they were married as 1878.
So I look up the registration of their marrage. This is were the story my grandmother told me rings a little bit truer. Andrew was a Hotel Waiter and Agnes a Hotel Barmaid. (bit like innkeeper).
Andrew's father Thomas listed as Surgeon Dental(not sure) deceased and Mary Disher M.S. Reid. (so he was a doctor).
Agnes father listed as Ships carpenter deceased, I can't work out what they have written about her mother with Ross at the end of it M.S. McDonald.
Still can't find any birth registration for my grandmother Elizabeth who was born in Gateshead. The Ellen listed on the Australian BDM have since found out is another sister.
Now I am only guessing here but I think my grandmother was James Dishers Daughter can't find any marriage listed for James and Agnes either
-
Hi Christine :)
Regarding Agnes' mother's details on the MC you have attached, looks like:
Bethia McKenzie, formerly Stewart, previously Ross, maiden surname McDonald
Three marriages for her it would seem from these details I think.
For Andrew's father, Thomas, the word in brackets reads 'deceased'.
Monica
-
I am beginning to have a mad, mad thought ::) ;D
Just the names from that last marriage entry you have found Chris. Re-read all this thread again from scratch.
What are the chances of the two Disher brothers both marrying an Agnes Ross? What if Agnes Ross ran away with James to Australia (may explain why there is no marriage to be found after all the many searches). I am going to try and list down my niggle/alarm bells - try to do it in order although it may not come out at way!:
- We now have an Agnes Ross, aged 21 marrying Andrew Disher in 1878 in Glasgow. She shows as a hotel barmaid......which fits well with reply No.2: Story goes that it was because he married Agnes Ross who was a Innkeepers daughter.
- I cannot see a death for Agnes prior to Andrew's second marriage that Ambly found from an Ancestry tree: Andrew DISHER married Helen GEDDES - 2 Feb 1888, Glasgow Would be interesting to see what Andrew's marital status is on this his marriage entry (widower/bachelor).
- We had a summary from Ambly on post No. 31:
and Elizabeth's mother, not much luck with her either:
Agnes McDonald ROSS
Born abt 1861 Scotland(from Death registration 1924 age 63)
Father : ROSS (ditto)
Mother Jean McDONALD (ditto)
Supposed to be an Innkeepers daughter
Supposed to be in Gateshead visting her husband James, when Elizabeth was born 8 Mar 1886 - Agnes & John had a son born in Australia in that year - technically possible to have had another child by the end of 1886 - what was James's exact dob in 1886?
Supposed to have come to Australia, with her husband when dau Elizabeth was 18mnths old.
The names we have from the 1878 marriage for Agnes' mother: McKenzie, Ross, McDonald, Stewart. Some bells ringing with Elizabeth's name perhaps: Elizabeth Sutherland McKenzie Disher. We also know from Agnes' death details in Australia that her mother's maiden name was McDonald. And then that possible census entry found in post No. 34:
John McDonald 56, house painter b. Edinburgh, Mid Lothian
Berthia McDonald 50 b. Spakout (?spl), Dumbarton
Berthia McDonald 27, b. Helsintz, Dumbartonshire
Catherine McDonald 16, b. Glasgow
Agnes Ross 3 granddaughter b. Glasgow
Archibald Love 22 son in law, confectioner b. Glasgow
Euphemia Love 24 b. Helensburg, Dumbarton
John Love 11 Months, grandson b. Glasgow
Address: 8 Pembroke Street, Anderston, Glasgow
I am wondering whether her mother was Bethia not Jane?
So many clues, am I going madly off track here? ;D
Monica
-
I wonder if this is Agnes following her marriage in 1881:
Agnes Disher, 22, b. Glasgow, House Maid; Dom. Serv. working at the Temperance Hotel, 12 Hutcheson St. Blythswood, Glasgow
Monica
-
A little bit more...and blowing part of my new thoughts!
The Andrew Disher that we had earlier who married a Helen Geddes is not connected to this line I think. His parents on his MC show as James, a cooper by trade, and an Elizabeth Morrison, both deceased. He shows as 29, a bachelor, and a knitting machine labourer.
The big problem I am having though is trying to find anything on anyone at present that we have seen on marriage certs.
Can't see this Andrew who married in 1888 in the earlier censuses at all (from 1881 back) and as for Agnes Ross, who married in 1878, struggling to see anything on her reported mother and her many marriages with all the surnames we have :-\
Monica
-
Hi Monica
Glad you could read it I could pick out the surnames funny thing is my maiden name is Stewart.
You were wondering if Bertha was Agnes mother not Jane, if you look through some of the previous information you sent Agnes's fathers name is Thomas not William and you also mentioned you couldn't find them again after 1861.
Maybe something happened to them Thomas and William could of been brothers or could be same person Thomas William Ross or vice Vera.
James was born 1885 (not 86) (will attach birth certificate)
Elizabeth b. 1886
Ellen Kelvin b. 1887 (Kelvin is listed as the District on James birth registration.
Been in touch with a relation of Ellen's and pointed out that on her death certificate that her middle name is Mangin not Kelvin (we knew of her as Auntie May) different sort of name have you heard of it before.
Have looked for children born to Andrew & Agnes between 1887-1885 seven years is a long time for such a Young couple to be married and not have other children especially in those days????(IE. twins) what a tangled web...
Chris
-
Hi Chris
Attached is an 1858 birth cert not James' 1885 one...
Monica
-
Hi Monica,
Sorry hope this better
Chris
-
Thanks Chris :) An Engineer's Crane Keeper for occupation for father Andrew. Wish we could get a better steer on him :-\
-
Re your question on the surname Mangin, there are some entries coming up for it on IGI in Scotland, spelt either Mangan/Mangin/Mengin etc.
Monica
-
Chris
There are a couple of death entries on SP which might be connected to children of Andrew and Agnes:
1884: Jeanie McDonald Disher aged 3 in Anderston, Glasgow (can't easily see a birth entry for her).
1884: Ada Mary Disher aged 2, Anderston, Glasgow (birth showing in Anderston in 1882).
Monica
-
Hi Monica,
I would say they would be the twins my grandmother always spoke about they died of hooping cough nine days apart so I guess when you a little and hear these stories they get a little bit distorted.
Dying around the same time isn't quite the same a being born on same day
How sad can see why their marriage didn't survive.
Have attached certificates
Chris
-
So, current thinking is that Agnes Ross was the wife of brother Andrew, which then gives substance to the stories of what you have heard about Agnes? Also, that son James was the son of Andrew, b. 1885 in Glasgow, but was raised by brother James and Agnes in Australia?
Monica
-
Have tryed to send photo of Elizabeth with husband and son too big had to crop down to Elizabeth thought would try this one of Charlotte (Dot) and husband had to crop it too. Elizabeth 1908 and Dot 1918.
will send Dots later still too big
Chris
-
Thanks for posting Chris - always great to see photos of the people we have talking about :)
-
Only recently discovered that we are related albeit distant cousins. Poor James poisoned himself in 1898 by mistaking carbolic acid for whiskey. When seeing babies or young children's death notices you often wonder what happened. By reading the comments here - it was determined that James and Agnes' little girls passed away due to whooping cough. After James death, their children popped up elsewhere so possibly being taken in by kin. Bit by bit, it paints a picture of life back then.
-
Hello from Australia - I might be able to help with Disher family information. I am a descendant of Agnes McDonald Disher (nee Ross) and James Disher. My great-grandmother was Elizabeth Sutherlan McKenzie Disher who married Percy Phillips.
I am researching the travel from the UK to Australia and the US.
I will happily share any information I have.