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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Anglesey => Topic started by: Amlodhi on Wednesday 14 July 10 14:07 BST (UK)
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Hi - another topic.
This time the Burnell (I'll use just this variant of the name) family. I have the family traced from 1841 onwards, but I need to concentrate on Jonathan Burnell, a boilermaker c1800 - 1875. The 1841, 1851 and 1861 censuses all have his birth place as in Holyhead (1841 saying just "born in county"). However, having rifted the records in Llangefni office, I can find no trace of his birth. One contact has told me that he may originally have come from South Wales but I can currently find no way of researching that. Besides, that contradicts 3 censuses in a row.
Also on the 1841 and 1851 censuses is an Abigail Burnell, born c1797 also in Holyhead (died in 1853), who is listed in Jonathan's household as a servant. She may be a family member - a sister or sister-in-law.
Can anyone help shed some light on this?
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Hi there!
I'm also searching Jonathon Burnell - who was the father of Jane Ann and Mary (to name but 2). Mary married John Rich of Surlingham, Norfolk. I think I've got Jonathon as far back as 1851. The only one I could find for 1841 was a farm labourer, living at Pen y Bonc South Stack Rd,Holyhead.
Any chance they're the same ones?
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You definitely have the same family as me! Good to hear from you.
John Rich of Surlingham (born 1855), and Mary Burnell (born 1867) are my great-grandparents, their first child together (my grandfather) also John(born 1895) - my mother was Jean Rich (born 1922 in Liverpool). Mary already had a son, Edward Owen, before she met John. Edward's father was apparently lost at sea. John adopted him.
I presume Jane Ann is Mary's older sister (born 1852). If that is correct, I am in touch with her descendant who lives in Kent. I have not heard before that Jane had a second/middle name Ann. Whatever, we can pursue that later.
Both Mary's and Jane's father was Jonathan Burnell (born 1826 in Holyhead). I can find no record of his actual birth - baptisms were more important in those days, and he didn't get baptised until 1873 when he and almost all his children did in a mass session! Interesting story we can discuss later, perhaps. But the one you have working as a servant in Pen Y Bonc, Holyhead, in 1841, is definitely the same one. Jonathan married Ann Jones in Holyhead on 20 June 1845.
Jonathan's father was also a Jonathan, and this, as I've already said, is where complications set in - spellings of his surname vary through Burnal/Burnall/Burnel to Burnell. There may be other variations - only by trying all possibilities do you see the fuller (but possibly not FULL) picture. Jonathan Senior was born anywhere between 1798 and 1801 apparently in Anglesey, but neither I nor any other researchers can find a record. He was already a widower in 1841. One descendant of the Burnell family, a distinguished (and retired) member of the Holyhead community, believes he originally came from South Wales, but there is currently no way of checking this out online. Other sources believe there were TWO Burnell families in Holyhead, one of them being Irish. I can find no trace of any other Burnell family, so the other alternative is that Jonathan Snr himself was in fact Irish. Further research may turn up something.
Are you on Genes Reunited? If so, let me know your details and I'll contact you and open up my tree to you - we can then take this further. Looking forward to hearing from you.
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Good afternoon Amlodhi! & thanks for getting back to me so quickly.
Yes I am on Genes Reunited....but only just!!
Jane Ann was my GGGgarndmother, and Mary's elder sister. The person you're in contact with in Kent is my 2nd cousin(?)...our mothers' are 1st cousins.
To my knowledge there are 3 'sets' of Burnell- or variations of- around Holyhead.
The estate agent, the guy that works at the maritime museum and the ex-teacher. I'm hoping to see the estate agent next week so I'll ask him a few questions... he is one of 'our' Burnells!
I plan to dig deeper re the 1841 census Jonathon via parish records and/or the archives office in Llangefni, and se if there's anything in the local cemetary in Maeshyfryd. So if you have any tips they will be gratefully received.
Also if I can do any research for you at this end, being Anglesey, please let me know.
Hope to hear from you soon :)
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Kent Lady and you are my 4th cousins (or something like that), our common denominator being Jonathan Burnell, born c1826, the father of Jane and Mary.
The maritime museum guy is apparently descended from Robert Burnell, Jonathan's slightly younger brother. So he's "one of us". I'm not currently in touch with him although I met him in Holyhead last May). Is he a 5th cousin? I'm not sure. But the common denominator for all of us is Jonathan Burnell Senior (1798 to 1801). Tracing his birth is going to be fun, as Kent Lady, Maritime Guy and I already know.
I have had no contact with the estate agent or the ex-teacher yet - it'll be fascinating to know their ancestry, although I'm reasonably certain they will be descendants of Jonathan Snr as well.
I found the story of the "Irish Connection" in a forum some time ago. I'll need to find it again to check it out against the information I've gathered since.
You should have my other contact details now, so we could discuss in more detail there.
Cheers ;D
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Hi again Blodynbach
Just found the forum mentioning the Irish Connection: http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/surnames.burnell/11.100.102.2/mb.ashx.
Maritime Guy posted on it as well. It goes back to 2000-02 but should all still be relevant. It looks at first glance that Jonathan Burnell Snr's father William may have been the one who crossed from Dublin with a brother around 1780.
Cheers :)
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Hello and thanks for all this info....I was told that the Maritime Guy wasn't related to us...but then some of the info I've had from her is a little confusing!!
I don't know how interested Estate Agent will be....but I'll ask him when I see him. I might try and pop to the Museum too...see if I can fill in some of my gaps!!!
I don't seem to have any other contact details for you... but I'll PM my details ;D to you......Cheers ;D
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Hi to you both, cousins, between the three of us we should be able to resolve this question of Jonathan Burnall b. 1799 or 1801, I was told he originated from South Wales, I know if you check Holyhead Census 1851 on Google you will see the Welsh and Irish Burnells listed.
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Hi Blodynbach & Draigcoch
Good to have you on board - now we are three!! Everyone wade in with whatever you know.
Personally, I'm quite mystified by this claim of Irish and Welsh Burnells - just about every name I have found on the censuses so far relate to the family originally sired by Jonathan Snr (born c1800). I have found nothing to suggest there is a separate Burnell family. But it's quite possible I've missed some vital point. Can you give us a few forenames to help differentiate between the two?
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Cheers
Amlodhi
(Incidentally, Draigcoch, do you live anywhere near Holyhead?)
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Hello Amlodhi & Draigcoch.......I was brought up believing there were 2 'strains' of Burnell's in Holyhead. Not necessarily an Irish one & a Welsh one though.
However, I was told that we weren't related to Maritime Guy, but were related to the auctioneer. I will probably be seeing him (auctioneer) over the week end so I hope to get some names from him....see if there's a connection.
I hope to contact the ex-teacher too, who we are related to apparently.
Watch this space .....as they say ;D
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Just twigged who you are, Draigcoch! Heavens - I'm slow sometimes!
OK - I've found the Irish Burnell family (and spelt this way) - they lived in Harp Street for the 1851 census so you were perfectly right. The whole family is recorded as being born in Ireland. They are John (66, stonecutter), wife Mary (48), Elizabeth (20), William (19, a stonecutter), Caroline (15), Samuel (13) and John (11). Given that John was born in Ireland and was only 11, they could not have arrived in Holyhead before 1841. They did not appear on the 1861 or 1871 censuses, so they probably moved on - no further appearance from them.
Oddly, I had not seen the entry for them before. But that, I believe, now closes the issue of the Irish Burnells, and we go back to wondering where Jonathan Snr came from.
Welsh Burnells in 1851 are recorded living in Hibernia Row (William Burnell b1825, Jonathan Jnr's older brother, & family) and Upper Mountain Row (Jonathan Burnall Jnr & family).
There are no other Burnells of any spelling in Holyhead in 1851.
Interestingly, the 1841 to 1871 censuses all record Jonathan Snr as being born in Holyhead (the 1841 one says "born in county" which is good enough!).
So - thoughts, please?
Cheers
Amlodhi
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Hello again all interested parties :)
I agree, and think there was/is now only one 'strain' of Burnell's in the area. Originating from Jonathon(1801). Although didn't Maritime Museum man say he wasn't related to the Auctioneers? I didn't get a chance to speak to him over the week end, but I'm sure I will do soon.
I'm writing to the ex teacher his week, so I hope to have some info from him by next week.
I'm going to the Archives office in Llangefni, in a couple of weeks so if if either of you have anything I could look up for you, let me know.
Happy hunting ;D
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Glad you agree, Blodynbach. Although it's not impossible that Jonathan's roots may hold a few surprises when we find them.
In the meantime, as you are going to Llangefni, and if you have time, could you have a look at the Holyhead parish registers between 1795 and 1801 to try to find Jonathan and also Abigail (oft spelt Abigal) - she is about 3 years older than Jonathan. The surname was always seems to be spelt Burnall. I'm not sure if Draigcoch already checked these out, but possibly worth a second attempt.
Looking forward to hearing what your teacher may reveal.
Have a good week all.
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Anything you can find on Janes 1st and 2nd husband would be a breakthrough, birth marriage death, I have spoken to Maritime guy a couple of years ago and he sent me his tree, which is not a direct connection to ours. I will have to dig it out and let you know.
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Yea - another mystery! I've searched high and low for details of Jane's first husband's death and her second marriage, but nothing. However, I've only looked in the Holyhead area for traces - is it possible he died and she re-married away from Holyhead or Anglesey?
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Shame her first husband's name was Jones really. As you know there are one or two about! The info I previously sent to re. Thomas' family was wrong I'm afraid. Went back a fair few years before I realised it couldn't be.
However, I was in Maeshyfryd on Saturday, and I think I might have a lead. Have done some searching, and I might have found the family- again. I'm going to the archives next week, and will hopefully have some results after my visit.
Jane's 2nd husband could have been from Caernarfon.
Will let you know my findings :)
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Yup - the traditional naming convention in North Wales is a nightmare.
My ggrandfather married Jane Evans from Cerrigydrudion. Jane's mother's maiden name was Jones. His son, my grandfather, was also born in Cerrifydrudion - he married Anne Evans from Llangwm (just 2 miles down the road from Cerrifydrudion). Her mother's maiden name was Jones! It makes you wonder ......!
Whatever, we'll be grateful for anything you can turn up while you're in Llangefni.
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When you say Thomas' info is wrong can you elaborate more, also regarding Maeshyfryd, or are you waiting for more records Blodyn
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Well, all was well untill 1881, when there was a Thomas living with the Jones' in Baptist St, and with the same family in 1891 living in Thomas St. The census says he's single.
But, our Thomas was, on both occaisions living with Jane and the children. In 1881 in Porth y Felin, and in 1891 in Liverpool. So I don't think John & Margaret were our Thomas' family.
However, I was in Maeshyfyrd on Saturday, and came accross what I'm hoping is another lead. If the family I'm following now has a Thomas that could be ours, I'll let you know, and fill you in on the details :)
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I have found Jonathan Burnal 's grave hope its your relative he is buried at the Capel Bethel (b) Edmond Street Holyhead death 1875 aged76 also there is Jane daughter of R & M Lewis Bryngwyn hope that will help you there is another grave there with a JaneBurnal daughter of Robert Burnal died 1852 if you check with the chapel administrator they might help to fill in some gaps for you the old chapel books are kept in Bangor and aberystwyth good luck
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That is fantastic, thank you for that Cae Howell we will certainly look into this further, as one of us lives nearby Holyhead, not a problem I'm sure.
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Hi Cae
Little doubt that this is the correct guy - fantastic piece of work there! Many, many thanks for your help - we owe you a few beers!
Amlodhi
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If you enter the cemetary via Edmond Street walk down towards the wall near Upper baptist Street the grave of Jane Burnall which is half way down second row left side Jonathans grave is toward the wall behind Janes grave hope that helps
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Again, Cae, this is really helpful. I think Draigcoch, Blodynbach and I will be looking very closely at the chapel records when we next visit Holyhead (me, hopefully, in May or thereabouts). However, Blodynbach lives very near Holyhead so may be able to get there sooner.
Something of interest I've just uncovered: the present Capel Bethel was founded in 1895 which is a bit late for the interment of Jonathan Burnal in 1875. Do you happen to know if there an earlier chapel of the same name on the site?
Amlodhi
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I believe there was another chapel built there before this building and before that they met opposite Pump Street in the fields there the chapel have no old books they are deposited in Bangor but you never know someone might help you. You could contact Bangor University ask them about the books you can do this on line hope that helps
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That's interesting - hopefully we will be able to trace other members of the Burnal family there. Looks like a trip to the Bangor Record Office is in order! :)
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Many thanks to Cae Howell for the info I'll try and pop there on Saturday. I didn't even realize that there was cemetary there!
I think I've found Thomas' family. Might be a bit long winded so I apologize. His parents were John & Anne. John was a small ware dealer born In Flint c1820. Anne was born Caernarfon c1809. I have them living in Swift Sq Holyhead in 1851.
I lose the family then.....but in 1871, John pops up married to Catherine and living in 26 Market St. By 1881 they'd moved to Birmingham House, and were still there on the 1901 census. By then John had died, and Catherine was 71 years old.
It looks as though Catherine had been married previously to a Mr Harding and had a son William.
She and John had 4 sons...Jonathan (c1857) Robert (c1858) John (c1861) & Samuel/ Lemual (c1863).
Thomas had 3 brothers (upto 1851 anyway) John (c1837) Edward (c1844) & William (c1846).
So it looks as though the 'Curly Jack' connction was right...except that John Snr died in 1898....and my grandfather remebered being taken to the shop by his grandmother (Jane ) to see him...so it must have been one his uncles.
Anyway, I'm going to the archives again on Tuesday, do some more 'digging'.
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Brilliant work Blodyn you have been busy, can't wait for the next update.
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Looking up Jane Burnall she was the daughter of Robert Burnall and died in 1852 aged 6 years old hope that helps you
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Many thanks.....with so many Janes, Roberts' and Jonathoans' in the family every bit of info helps :)
Am I right that the gates to Bethels cemetary are only open on Sunday. I was there on a Monday afternoon recently and it was locked :(
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Something of interest I've just uncovered: the present Capel Bethel was founded in 1895 which is a bit late for the interment of Jonathan Burnal in 1875. Do you happen to know if there an earlier chapel of the same name on the site?
Amlodhi
The Standard (London, England), Saturday, February 09, 1861
Registered for the solemnising of marriages .
Bethel , Holyhead.
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RE Irish Burnell. John BYRNELL and Maria/Mary Jennens came from Ireland to Wales. He was born 1787 in Meath and I believe she was born abt 1797 in Meath. John was a stonemason. Their children were Elizabeth, William, Ann Maria, Catherine Jane, Samuel and John. Maria died 23, Mar 1867 in Holyhead. John died 27 Feb 1875 in Monks, Coppenhill, Cheshire, England. In the 1871 Census John lived with his daughter Elizabeth Roberts and family in Ruthin, Denbighshire, Wales. His birth place in the Census did vary. Thought that might help clear up the Irish end of things.
I do know there was a Jonathan Byrnell born 2 Oct 1834 in Clonbun, Trim, Meath, Ireland. I don't know what happened to him though. The spelling of the name varied -- Burnell, Byrnell, BRynell, Bonnell in Ireland. :)
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I came across this chat, having entered "Curly Jack" into the search engine. He was an ancestor of mine, as was Jonathan Burnell. All that I know of my family has come through the Ancestry website (except for a visit to Maeshyfryd cemetry). I suspect that one of the participants in the chat is a cousin of whom I am already aware; to her, and to the rest of you - Greetings! :)
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I came across this chat, having entered "Curly Jack" into the search engine. He was an ancestor of mine, as was Jonathan Burnell. All that I know of my family has come through the Ancestry website (except for a visit to Maeshyfryd cemetry). I suspect that one of the participants in the chat is a cousin of whom I am already aware; to her, and to the rest of you - Greetings! :)
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Hi, good to hear from another connection to our family, how are you related?
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Hello, and thanks for the reply. John Jones' grandson, Thomas, married Jane Burnell; their son, Thomas, is my great grandfather, through his daughter, Annie, and her son, Raymond.
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Do you live in Holyhead? My connection is Annie, Jane’s daughter do you know what happened to Jane’s husband Thomas as she remarried. I know Her son Jonathan ( Jonty) lived with my grandparents when he was elderly.
Jane is buried with her daughter Annie.
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Hello, again. I have retired to Prestatyn, after thirty years working in Kent, but visit home a few times a year. I believe that Thomas died in Liverpool, in hospital, and was buried there. I don't think I was aware of Jane's daughter, so must get back to Ancestry and find out how I missed her. :)
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I have your Annie in my tree, but as Elizabeth Anne, and I have borrowed a photo of her gravestone from another Ancestry member.
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Your right she was born Elizabeth Ann.
Thank you for the info on Thomas, that is why I couldn’t find him, I will have to look for him.
What a small world, I have connections with Prestatyn and Kent, where about did you live there.
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We first lived in Upper Belvedere, near Bexleyheath and Erith, then we moved down to Chatham. I worked in Sidcup the whole time. My three sons and their families live in Chatham, still. Speaking to my mum, earlier, she told me that my dad always referred to his great-uncle Jonathan as "Jot".
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Prestatyn is lovely all that coastline is, what a bonus your Mum remembering Jot/Jonty, is your mother living near you, is she elderly? It’s great when you get information from family memories.
How have you got on with your research into “ Curly Jack”.
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We live in a village not far from Prestatyn, and one of my brothers lives in the next village. Mum is 85, now, and lives on the outskirts of Prestatyn, near Meliden. It's not Holyhead, but we like it here. Mum remembers many of the old family; things she has remembered (such as the Curly Jack thing) have helped me to make headway. She remembered my dad's cousins' names, so I have been able to work back from them, or check if I am on a right track. She knew of the Mc Ewan connection. My researches are reaching an end, I think, as going beyond the 19th century requires greater resources or commitment - especially when dealing with Wales, bearing in mind the names issue. I think it was probably John Jones's son John, the ironmonger, who may have been known as Curly Jack. I still have some unanswered questions about the family to resolve, so I shall keep chipping away. I believe that Thomas Harding's mother may have been related to John Jones, but haven't been able to substantiate that, as I cannot find Edward Jones, John's shopkeeper father. On another note, I can walk down to the church where John and his first wife were married at Rhuddlan. I shall keep at it until the frustration outweighs the intrigue! ;)
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Are you on Messenger or can I get in touch on Ancestry, I would be happy to discuss this further with you but not on this open forum if you would want to, we have so many connections in relation to our family.
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No problem. I just use my name on Ancestry. I have done the DNA thing, too.
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Will do. I will be in touch