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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: cellogirl on Monday 26 July 10 01:30 BST (UK)
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George (b. around 1780) and Letitia Church moved from Ireland to Canada in the 1820's with their 6 children. Two sources indicate that they came from Londonderry. I have found the information on the internet about the Church family in Desertoghill, but have been unable to make a connection with that family. There is a second Church family in Canada that also moved from Londonderry likely around the same time - a William Church (b. 1798 in Londonderry) married to Mary Ann Gass (b. 1802 in Ireland). I have not been able to connect this family yet to mine but strongly feel that there may be one. Can anyone help me make a connection between my Church family and one in Ireland? I think I have exhausted all my sources here in Canada. Thanks!
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Hi Cellogirl
I am a descendant of the Church family of Desertoghill living in Northern Ireland. I can't see a connection to your George and Letitia in my research but I would be very surprised if there wasn't one at some stage. My gt gt gt grandfather had a cousin William Church (b. 1804) who went to St Johns, New Brunswick in the 1820s, but he was married to a Jane Irwin and the family moved on to the US after their first 3 children were born. Otherwise I have no record of family members moving to Canada until the early 1900s.
As far as I know all the Churches in Co Londonderry are descended from Thomas Church who was born in England and died in Kilrea, Co Londonderry in 1654. His second son, George, bought the freehold of a farm in Desertoghill (neighbouring parish to Kilrea) in 1621 and the family have been in the area every since.
Once you have made a couple more postings on this site I can send you some more details by PM (personal message).
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Thank you very much for your reply. You have already told me more than I knew about the Church family and its origins in England - thank you! One item that may help me trace my line is that in 1820 something called the "Waterloo Settlement" was established in Beauport parish near Quebec City for colonists (English, Scottish, and Irish) who participated in the fall of Napoleon in the battle of Waterloo. I don't know if this means that they were given land, but I do know that George and Letitia Church lived there at least until 1829 when their daughter Elizabeth was married. This is confirmed in the record to her marriage to John Quirt. They later moved to the Winchester area south of Ottawa, and my line ended up in the Wellington County area by the 1850's.
I am very interested in exploring possible resources in Londonderry that may help me find a connection.
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Hi Cellogirl
Have you tried military records to see if George is mentioned? The Waterloo link might well give a lead. When you have made 1 most post you will be able to use the PM system.
Good luck.
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Hello akanex2, I attended an Irish Genealogy conference in Ottawa a few years ago, and had the opportunity to search the military section of the Find my past website. I found several Churches listed but no George Church. There may be other sites that I should be searching, and would appreciate any recommendations. Thanks.
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I am descended from Stephen CHURC and Bridget WELSH. Two years ago, a gentleman provided me with the following information in an email message Re: Stephen Church dated Sat, 23/02/2008
"there was a Bridget Church gravestone in Kilrea Church of Ireland graveyard. I looked in up in my files and found the following: To the memory of Bridget Church who departed this life 9th July 1839. Aged 59 years. Also her daughter Eliza who departed this life 12 June 1830, Aged 23 years
He felt it likely this could be Bridget WELSH, Stephen's wife and their daughter, Margaret (b abt 1813- d 1864 Calton, Glasgow). He went on to note: "Church is quite an uncommon name and all the Co Londonderry Churchs descend from Thomas of Kilrea who died in 1656..."
Stephen and Bridget's daughter Thomason (b 1800-1807 / d 13 Feb 1865 in Hutchesontown, Glasgow wife of Andrew DIAMOND. (Will post Diamond information in separate message). Any help in identifying any of these folks would be appreciated.
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In 1861 (Census for Gorbals Glasgow, pg 181, #89), 38 Main Street was the residence of Thomasina DIMOND, household head, widow, age 54, born in Ireland and her children John 22 and Andrew 17---both Iron Moulders; Mary Ann 17 a cotton weaver, Elizabeth 13 scholar---all born in Ireland. John McDonald age 22, an iron molder and Patrick Dempsey a slater---lodgers born in Ireland. On February 13 1865---two years after the death of her son Andrew at 73 Main Street---Thomasina DIAMOND widow of Andrew DIAMOND, mason, journeyman, died at 2h30m pm at 73 Main Street, Glasgow. She was 65. Her parents were Stephen CHURCH, farmer, deceased and Bridget Church ms WELSH, deceased. The informant was John DIAMOND, son, residing at 51 Muirhead Street.
In an email message Re: Stephen Church Sat, 23/02/2008 I was advised: As Thomasina Diamond was a householder in Kilrea in 1858...If we assume this is your ancestor who turned up in Glasgow before 1861, then Andrew must have died and been buried in the Kilrea area - sadly before civil registration of deaths here. If he was a stone mason by profession, a gravestone is not an unreasonable assumption... [Suggested trying both Roman Catholic and Church of Ireland graveyards in Kilrea and Desertoghill Parishes...] Any help regarding the CHURCH or DIAMOND families would be appreciated.
Bonnie
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Hi Akanex2,
I'm interested in your knowledge of the Church family of Ulster. I'm an American and was intrigued by seeing Church descendants immigrating into Canada since I have Church ancestors who ended up in Pennsylvania in the 1700s. A greatgrandfather of mine was Thomas Church, born ca. 1743 "at the Grove near" Straton in Londonderry. (Does anyone know where Straton is in Londonderry?) While I know Thomas' mother's given name (Martha), I do not know his father's name. His mother died in Pennsylvania in 1773 and is buried next to Thomas, who died in 1812. For most of Thomas' life in the US, Thomas lived in Lancaster County. But in the late 1790s he moved to neighboring Chester County.
A contemporary in Lancaster County was Paul Church, who died 1765. His wife's given name was Dorcas.
Back to Thomas, however. In the late 1790s when Thomas Church was moving his family to nearby Chester county, a Dr. William and Mary (McAllister) Church settled in Lancaster County. This Dr. William Church was born about 1772 in Londonderry, and "Encyclopedia of Pennsylvania biography: illustrated," Volume 2, by John Woolf Jordan; Thomas Lynch Montgomery; et al states that this Dr. William Church was the son of Sir William Church.
By the way, a given name passed on among Thomas Church’s descendants is Alexander. I’m wondering if someone upline was also named Alexander.
These are the only Churches in this part of Pennsylvania, and I suspect they are all related but am unsure how at this point. Akanex2--do you know who Sir William Church was in Londonderry? Any idea how these Churches fit into the bigger picture in Londonderry?
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As far as I know there isn't a place (townland or otherwise) called Staton in this area. Suspect that 'The Grove near Staton' might be The Grove near Garvagh.
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Hi Ulster Alexander
Cannot identify your Thomas unfortunately. My 6xgt grandparents John & Mary Church lived at The Grove and had a son named Thomas born in 1748, but he died aged 3 so he's not your ancestor. The Grove is the main family farm which has been in the Church family from 1629 so we have pretty good records of each generation living there. Where the records are less complete are for the families of younger sons of the main branch who may have lived in other houses adjoining the main farmhouse. John had a younger brother James Church who did emigrate so this could be a possibility for your line. James lived at Craigmore in Aghadowey parish (although he had been born at The Grove) and was married to Margaret McKnight (who died young in 1737) with whom he had 2 daughters. It is possible he remarried producing Thomas, but have seen no mention of any second marriage here. I have no Alexanders in my direct line and it is a fairly unusual name in the family generally - Thomas, George, Arthur, William and John are the most prevalent male names going back to the early 1600s.
As far as I know there has never been a Sir William Church in Londonderry, although I have heard before of this story from the US (I suspect the family have "promoted" his rank for additional prestige). I'm afraid I cannot fit him into my tree though as all Williams of around the right age are accounted for.
Sorry I can be of more help
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Thanks Akanex2 and Aghadowey--just getting info from someone who lives in or near Londonderry helps a lot trying to get a picture of who lived where and knowing that these names and places weren't just fabricated. The fact that "the Grove" is mentioned, and learning that there is a Grove in Londonderry is quite helpful. Several of my main lines go back to Londonderry or nearby--the Alexanders & Brawleys (American spelling of likely Brolly) seem to be in Londonderry, possibly near Donegal and Tyrone; & then there are the Arbuckle and Clark parents from Antrim who married in Coleraine, Londonderry; & the Arbuckle who married McCoys in Dunluca, Antrim along with the Jarvises and Arbuckles, the latter being also closely connected to the Alexanders. And then there are the Churches, who I'm just doing the more difficult research on. Actually, out of all these, I've found out more information about the Churches from both of you than I've been able to get on all the other family names. So I very much appreciate your input, insights, and suggestions.
As for given names in the downline of Thomas Church's family, there are, as you mentioned Akanex2, a number of Williams and several Thomases. When I find out who Thomas' parents are, I'll perhaps have something better to go on.
Akanex2, you wrote that the records for the main Church family living at the Grove/the main branch are pretty good from 1629 on. Do you know of a book or anyplace online where I might see what there is for that part of the Church family? I’d like to have it for future reference as I get more into the details of this family. It would be very useful. Right now I'm very much in the dark as to the Church family in Ulster.
Again, I appreciate everyone's help, input and insights.
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Hi,
Considering the terms "the Grove near" I wondered if this might have been "Grosvenor" pronounced with an Ulster accent. I am not aware of a Grosvenor in Londonderry and cannot find one so this may be a red herring.
Regards
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In response to Ulster Alexander's post at 03:51 regarding "...a Dr. William and Mary (McAllister) Church settled in Lancaster County. This Dr. William Church was born about 1772 in Londonderry, and "Encyclopedia of Pennsylvania biography: illustrated," Volume 2, by John Woolf Jordan; Thomas Lynch Montgomery; et al states that this Dr. William Church was the son of Sir William Church.", while looking for clues to my own Church ancestors, I found the following which may serve for further research regarding William born in 1772.
228 THE SCOTCH-IRISH IN AMERICA.
Dake, Mrs. Elizabeth Church, 216 Yine Street, Nashville, Tenm First year.
Born at Pittsburg, Pa. ; father, Dr. William Church, a leading physician of Pittsburg, Pa., was born at Coleraine, Ireland; mother, Elizabeth Taggart Church, born in North Ireland; wife of Dr. J. P. Dake, and mother of five children ; Manager of Protestant Orphan Asylum, and of the Woman's Mission Home, Nashville, Tenn.
Dake, Dr. William Church, 218 North Yine Street, Nashville, Tenn. 1892.
Born in Pittsburg, Pa., January 28, 1852; became a resident of [continued on next page...LIST OP MEMBERS. 229] Nashville, Term., June 22, 18G9; eldest son of Dr. J. P. and Elizabeth Church Dake; mother horn in Pittsburg, Pa., August 19, 1S26; mother's father, Dr. William Church, Jr., born in Coleraine, Ireland, August 1, 1795; mother's mother, Elizabeth Taggart Church, born in County Down, Ireland, December, 1795; mother's grandfather, Dr. William Church, Sr., born in Coleraine, Ireland, August 19, 1772; mother's grandmother, Margaret McAllister Church, born in Ireland in 1770; mother's grandparents came to America in 1797, and settled in Strasburg, Lancaster County, Pa.; removed to Pittsburg, Pa., in 1805; physician; President (1S92- 93) Southern Homeopathic Medical Association; President (1891- 93) Homeopathic Medical Society of Tennessee; member American Institute of Homeopathy, and of American Obstetrical Society.
Source: http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/scotch-irish-congress/the-scotch-irish-in-america--proceedings-of-the-scotch-irish-congress-toc/page-22-the-scotch-irish-in-america--proceedings-of-the-scotch-irish-congress-toc.shtml
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You might be interested in looking at the online Northern Ireland wills for the years 1858-1900 on the PRONI website (although to late for anything directly applicable to Ulster Alexander)
http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearch.aspx
This is the will of James Church who owned the main house of the Grove until 1884
http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearchImage.aspx?id=184060
which may be of interest - also for bshewmach here is the will of Mary Ann Church of Kilrea (she was the widow of Thomasina Diamond's brother Edward)
http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearchImage.aspx?id=190039
The site also gives administration details (i.e. no will left) for Stephen Church (Edward's brother) and Elwood (Edward's son).
Nothing detailing the Grove family is online I'm afraid - my details come from the notes made by the grandson of James (whose will I mentioned above) from old wills and family bibles now lost.
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Thank you akane2. It's a shame there is not more information available to researchers. I am slowly piecing together all the bits and pieces here on Rootschat and from various other sites to try to get a more complete picture of the family of Thomasina CHURCH, her siblings, parents (Stephen CHURCH/Bridget WELSH) and ancestors. Haven't found anything regarding Bridget WELSH'sparents yet. If anyone has any additional details on the children of Stephen and Bridget I would love to hear from you.
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Here's what I know of the family of Stephen Church and Bridget Welsh:-
The family lived on a farm called Tullycreggan near the Grove and Stephen also acted as land agent for his cousin James Church who owned the Grove. In the 1831 census the household consisted of 5 males, 4 females and one servant - I presume this is the parents, 4 sons and 3 daughters (unless other relatives lived with them). I can only identify 3 sons and 3 daughters and at least one son had also left home before 1831.
Edward was the son not at home in 1831. I believe he was living in the nearby town of Kilrea where he was a shopkeeper. He married Mary Ann O'Kane and had family (Charles, Elwood, Joseph and Catherine are named in their mother's will).
George emigrated to the USA (possibly with another brother).
Stephen inherited the family farm and lived for a while in The Grove house while acting as agent for his father's cousin, James. He married Elizabeth Morrow and had 3 children, John, James and Alicia. He was murdered on 26th Dec 1874 at the Grove, having recently evicted some of James's tenants, but no one was ever convicted of the murder. His widow and younger children joined the eldest, John, in Texas where he had settled before his father's death.
Elizabeth died unmarried and is buried in Kilrea Church of Ireland graveyard with her mother.
Thomasina married Andrew Diamond and her family moved to Glasgow.
Margaret also moved to Glasgow and married Paul Scullion.
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Thank you. Do you know if Mary O'Kane was related to Peter Murray & Mary Kane whose daughter Roseanne was married to John Diamond (s/o Andrew Diamond and Thomasina Church--mentioned in your post of 1:43 on 21 December) in Glasgow?
Do you have information regarding your Kane connections online anywhere? And, if so, would you please let me know where I could go to view the data?
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I realize I'm back late to the party after everyone's gone home but just in case someone sees this, I'd be interested in any feedback one might have. Last year I posted a query regarding the family of Thomas Church in America. He was born ca. 1743 "at the Grove" in County Derry, Ireland. During the American Revolution, Thomas Church served in the same regiment with an unknown Alexander Church. I suspect that latter was a relative of Thomas since Thomas had a son named Alexander Church. Thomas also had a grandson named Alexander, a great-grandson Alexander and two g-great-grandsons named James Alexander Church. AKANEX2 replied to my query and wrote that the given name Alexander is unusual in the Church family genealogy at the Grove. However, recently I ran across a Church branch in Northern Ireland that almost mirrors my Church family in America. in terms of using the name Alexander as a given name. About 70 years after my Thomas Church was born, a John Church, born ca. 1807. This John died in Loughguile, County Antrim. But among John Church's children was a son named Alexander Church. And downline from this Alexander Church well into more recent times there are 6 other Alexander Churches, two James Alexander Churches, and one John Alexander Church in this particular branch of the family. Given the number of Alexanders downline from John Church, I would suspect that upline from John there are other Alexanders as well. Does anyone have any idead how this particular branch of the Church family (beginnning with John Church, b. ca. 1807) fitd in to the Church clan of Northern Ireland? (SEE www.churchclan.net)
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This might help some of you.
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=wjhonson&id=I46338
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Church-2826
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Thomas Church of Drumbane, Aghanloo in Co Derry died circa 1746
Left legacies to his sons Thomas and Alexander (by his wife Martha).
They had brothers Paul Church & William (probably half-brothers).
Not sure if this snippet helps.