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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Cornwall => England => Cornwall Lookup Requests => Topic started by: BCC on Saturday 14 August 10 14:39 BST (UK)
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Is there anyone who is able to help me as I have no living relatives left on this side of the Courtis family to enquire. From what I have found out already, Jas G and Rebecca Courtis sailed to South Africa with two of their grandchildren Lillian and Hilda Courtis - from Liverpool I think. I was lead to believe that the whole family originated from Cornwall. I need to know what Lillian (my dad's mother) and Hilda's parents names where. Both my late dad and his mother Lillian had the second name of St John. I would be grateful for any information. Thanking you.
BCC
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat
What sort of dates are we talking?
FreeBMD has a birth for a Lillian Courtis in Cornwall
Jul/Aug/Sep 1890 Truro 5c 141
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1901 (RG13 2221 7 6 ) census indicates that girls parents are Edwin and Margaret - but I see no sister Hilda, so unlkikely to be the right girl
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Hi
Welcome to rootschat
There is this possible marriage on freebmd
September quarter 1878
Falmouth registration district - reference 5c 219
Campbell Margaret
COURTIS James Goldsworthy
HANLEY Joseph
John Rebecca Dusting
These are the four names listed under that reference
You refer to him as James G ???
ADDED perhaps the John as a surname has something to do with the St John
Rosie
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Hi
on the 1891 there is a Rebecca D Courtis living in Gwennap, Cornwall, with her children. Her husband is not with her but she is marked as "married"
The children with her are:-
James P, aged 11, born Bay of Biscay
Catherine L, aged 10, born Africa
Ellen M, aged 8, born St Michaels Mount, Cornwall
George E, aged 4, born St Michaels Mount
Walter P, aged 3, born Gwennap
unnamed, 2 day old girl, born Gwennap
so Hilda and Lilian could be children (so far) of James, George or Walter.....
Edit : Rebecca is 31 in 1891
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Hi
The 1914 sailing from Liverpool to South Africa gives James G Courtis age 59, Rebecca age 54, Hilda age 16 and Lilian age 13.
There is a Lilian Beatrice Courtis bn Plymouth in September qtr 1901 so she wouldn't be on the 1901 census.
Rosie
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the Lilian Beatrice in 1901 is a child of William C G & Annie Courtis
so we have Hilda born around 1898 and Lilian around 1901....
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I wonder if this is Hilda and her family? RG13 2221 9 10
Edwin Courts 34 Waggon driver bn Maugan
Lily 29 bn Truro
Gladys 8 bn Truro
Hilda 6 bn Tr
Florence 4 bn Tr
Cyril 1 bn Tr
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OR
she could be
Rg13 2244 121 16
Camborne
Frederick Curtis 37 bn Chowan
Annie 35 bn Camborone
Hilda 3 bn CAmborne
Elizabeth Eathorne mother in law 57 wid bn St Erth
Julia Eathorne sis in law 25 bn Camborne
William Eathorne nephew 18 bn Camborne
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Thank you all so very much for the replies ... very sweet of you all
To Lizdb ,, see dates below
To rossie99 ,, The date of marriage could have been correct for my GG Grandparents but only name which meant anything was James.
To rutht22000 ,,, No ,,, those names don't mean anything .. sadly ... though it was instilled in me that St Michaels Mount is 'my family history' what-ever that was meant to mean. History passed down is that centuries ago, my family used to live on St Michaels Mount.
Lillian (my gran) was born either in 1900 or 1901 in October ... have no idea of the date. Gran had two sisters, Audrey, the eldest and Hilda, the youngest and as far as I know two brothers ,,, could be Jack and James. I was informed that one of these brothers was drowned on the causeway in Cornwall ,,, have no idea when or how old he was. Audrey married Ernst Wright before they left to live here in South Africa. None of the children returned to the UK.
The name I was given was Jas G ,,, this could be short of Jasper. Lillian, Hilda and grandparents left in 1914 from what memory serves me, Liverpool.
I feel helpless as I am the only family member left from this side of the family and no documentation therefore any info is greatly appreciated.
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Do you know Audrey's approximate year of birth as may be able to find them that way...?
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Lillian (my gran) was born either in 1900 or 1901 in October ... have no idea of the date. Gran had two sisters, Audrey, the eldest and Hilda, the youngest and as far as I know two brothers ,,, could be Jack and James. I was informed that one of these brothers was drowned on the causeway in Cornwall ,,,
Hilda was younger than Lilian? Voyage details Rosie found had Hilda age 16 and Lilian age 13 ...
The Hilda I found in 1901 are looknig less likely as no older sister Audrey there.
And dads in both case are too old to be children of the marriage that Rosie found ...
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To Lizdb,
Hilda would have been younger than 14 when they left the UK. She was married out here and had one child Beryl. Thankyou for coming back to me, but I know that is not the correct Hilda.
BCC
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Hi Lizdb .... you could be correct in that Lillian was the youngest ... but .. big question to that as I have always understood Hilda to be the youngest. I stand corrected.
Thank you
BCC
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To rutht22000
I have no idea of Audrey's dob nor how much older she was than the other siblings.
Thank you
BCC
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To Rosie,
That is my family.
Lillian, Hilda and from what I was told their grandparents. I have no idea what Lillian and Hilda's parents names where. All I have is a photo and the family always referrd to her to me as GG Courtis.
Thanks a Million
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Hi Ruth ,,, you have now given me the names of my G Grandparents whose names I never knew, nor did I ever meet.
Thank you so much
BCC
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Lillian (my gran) was born either in 1900 or 1901 in October ...
If she is the Lilian Beatrice Courtis registered September qtr 1901 her birthday would not have been October.
Rosie
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Yes Rosie that is my gran Lillian. Her birthday was in October.
Thank you
Bren
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Yes Rosie that is my gran Lillian. Her birthday was in October.
Thank you
Bren
If she was born in October the birth should have been registered in the 4th quarter ending December ::)
Perhaps the entries over ran ...
So if this is your Lilian then she did not have St John registered as part of her name, there are certainly no other candidates on the registers.
Rosie
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Hi Rosie,
It is definitely the Lillian I was looking for. The St John could have been the parish they were from in Cornwall. I have no idea though as my dad (born out here in SA) did have it registered in his name and I always thought Lillian had St John in hers. So strange.
Thank you
B
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How would I go about obtaining info on the marriage cert for William and Annie to take this further down the line.
My late father (Dudley) had an older brother (Reginald) who was killed in action during WWII ,,, Both Hilda and Audrey only had one daughter each ,,, both of which passed away decades ago ,, so there is no way I am able to obtain anything furhter down the line other than from William and Annie's marriage cert and or dob. I don't even know how or when they arrived here in South Africa.
Thanks
BCC (Bren)
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Am not sure William and Annie is our connection
William C G Courtis was born in 1874, which was prior to the marriage of James Goldsworthy Courtis and Rebecca in 1878.
James Goldsworthy was born in 1855, making him about 23 and Rebecca was about 17 or 18 on marriage. James would have had to been married before and a father at 19 (which is possible...)
I wonder, as James and Rebecca's eldest 2 children were not born in England if they were back and forth all the time between the UK and SA which allows for them to be missing on the remaining census returns; even with all different spellings of their names I can think of.
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Rosie
Which ship was it that you found the family going out to SA on in 1914?
Only because I think I've got them coming back in Plymouth from Capetown in May 1914. Miss H Courtis aged 16 and Miss L Courtis aged 15 (reversing them around from the voyage out?) Last permanent residence was Cape.
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Hi
I wonder if they were even sisters ::)
There is a possible marriage on freebmd for William and Annie
June qtr 1901 Devonport 5b 694
CHAMBERLAIN William James
Courtis William Charles
Kyle Annie
NICHOLS Jane Elizabeth
RYLE Annie
Rosie
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Something that also occurred was whether they were James and Rebecca's own children rather than grandchildren. Rebecca would still have been young enough in 1900 to have Lilian then but if they were grandchildren they could only really be James Jnrs, but I can't find him getting married in the UK.
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Rosie
Which ship was it that you found the family going out to SA on in 1914?
Only because I think I've got them coming back in Plymouth from Capetown in May 1914. Miss H Courtis aged 16 and Miss L Courtis aged 15 (reversing them around from the voyage out?) Last permanent residence was Cape.
Sorry I only had the year as I only looked on the index, it was Liverpool to Cape Town
Rosie
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Hi there and once again thank you to all who have helped me.
I am certain of the following:
- Audrey, Lillian, Hilda and James were brother and sisters - I met them all.
- Lillian and Hilda arrived in SA 1914 with adults.
- Audrey married Ernst Wright in the UK and travelled together to SA landing in Algoa bay. They had one daughter named Billy.
- James married a Katie ?? and they had two children Joy and Eric
- Hilda married and divorced a ?? Inkpen ,,, they had one daughter named Beryl
- Lillian married Frank Baker ,,, they had two sons named Reginald (killed in action WWII) and Dudley ,,, who was my late father.
- Children born to Audrey, Hilda, James and Lillian where all born here in South Africa.
- Only Audrey married in the UK.
- Lillian and Hilda married out here in SA.
- Cornwall is the only place I know this familyl definitely came from.
I am uncertain of the following:
- How many other siblings there were in this family ,, I recall there being a Jack-Jack and one other. Jack-Jack (married a Nellie ?? ) and both were murdered here in SA ,,, one of the children drowned in Cornwall.
- James and Katie could have married in the UK before travelling out here
- The adults who accompanied Lillian and Hilda in 1914 ,, grandparents or parents ?
The only possible link to identify the adults who accompanied Lillian and Hilda could be from the marriage cert of Audrey and Ernst Wright. The above is all the history I know of this family as all passed away here in South Africa decades ago.
Thank you
BCC (Bren)
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Hi Bren
I think from the information that we have found the only way to progress on this with absolute certainty is for you to get Lilian's marriage certificate. I presume they give fathers details on them in SA.
I will keep looking at this though but later today. :)
Rosie
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Morning Rosie,
I will try and obtain this and yes both parents info is on the marriage cert over here. The only firm documentation I have is my grandfathers (Frank Baker - born Grahamstown, SA) baptismal cert. This Country is decades behind with the ease of obtaining this sort of documentation and the record keeping of such leaves nothing to the imagation, but I will do my best and revert.
I don't think I'm in for an easy ride with this side of the family ,,, they kept pretty much to themselves and didn't talk much about distant relatives ,,, makes me wonder why ,,, could be there were divorces, re-marriages etc which was taboo to talk about in those days.
Thank you for yours and everyones help so far, it's been much appreciated.
BCC (Bren)
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The children with her are:-
James P, aged 11, born Bay of Biscay
Catherine L, aged 10, born Africa
Ellen M, aged 8, born St Michaels Mount, Cornwall
George E, aged 4, born St Michaels Mount
Walter P, aged 3, born Gwennap
unnamed, 2 day old girl, born Gwennap
so Hilda and Lilian could be children (so far) of James, George or Walter.....
Edit : Rebecca is 31 in 1891
The unnamed child ties in with this birth registration from freebmd
Births June qtr 1891
Audrey May Courtis Redruth reg district ref 5c 195
which would indicate that Rebecca is the mother of Audrey ::)
Rosie
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Hi Rosie,
you could be correct here. I did read this on a previous message sent and the only other name of George sounded remotely like names I had heard in this family. Rebecca and James are definites. The very strong point was St Michaels Mount as all the family had a picture on their wall of this Island and my late sister and I were told that this is where most of the family were born.
I can't remember having heard of an Ellen or Catherine. I do have a number of very old family photos and neither my late sister and I knew who these great aunts/uncles where. My gran passed away when I was 16yo and these photos only came to life when we sifted through dads (Dudley) stuff after he died in 1975 when was I was 25 yo. By that stage, Audrey and Ernest had passed away. Hilda resided in Johannesburg ,,, and only lived another 2 years after my dad passed away.
If I knew how or if possible, I would post a pic of GG Courtis and aunts in case there is anyone else with a pic of the same people. The information you have sent could very well be my family, though not confirmed.
Thanks a ton
BCC (Bren)
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I did wonder if that uunamed child could have been that Audrey which led me to believe that Hilda and Lilian could well have been children and not grandchildren of James & Rebecca as they dates are just that bit too tight.
Gwennap is very near Redruth and it being June Quarter fits entirely with a census that would have been taken in the April with a 2 day old baby on.
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Hi Ruth,
The more I have racked my brain over this, the more I'm inclined to believe that Rebecca and James where the parents and not grand-parents ,,, that the children mentioned in the list are my grans brothers and sisters though I had never heard of some of them.
For instance James P could well be the husband of Katie. (I mentioned above) My late cousins from that marriage where a lot older than I am. Also the name George rings a bell somewhere.
There are 3 families with the name Courtis in South Africa ,,, one lives in Cape Town and it was in trying to locate family members that I found him. Without doubt, we believe we are cousins as he also has a pic of the Isle of Mount Michael in his home ,,, inherrited from his parents. As to how we are related is difficult as his late father never spoke much about his family. He has just mentioned to me that he recalls Spain coming into his family somehow ,,, from what dates or how, or even if this helps me, we have no idea. This cousin is 51yo and I am 60yo, so his G.father could well be one of Lillians older brothers, though he never knew his G.father or his G.fathers name. We believe something happened within the family which split them apart ,, hence the "silence" within this family ,,, so sad for us, the descendants.
Thanks a mil
BCC (Bren)
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The Spain bit could be James P - the Bay of Biscay is just north of Spain.
Just had a look at James P seems to have been born on 22 June 1879 on board a ship called "Pretoria". Mum & Dad are named James G Courtis and Rebecca D (Johns). Looks like Rebecca and James went out not long after they married. Do you know what James G did for a living by any chance?
On other things - Rebecca Dusting John was the daughter of Thomas John & Catherine (Kitty) Dusting, born 1860 at St Michael's Mount.
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There is a Lilian Beatrice Courtis bn Plymouth in September qtr 1901 so she wouldn't be on the 1901 census.
Rosie
The more I think about this I think that this is not your Lilian and that both she and Hilda were not born in England. ::)
As for Audrey, I do believe the 1891 registration is yours though I can find no trace of her going to SA, married or unmarried - nor can I find a marriage for her in England.
There is always the chance that Lilian and/or Hilda were illegitimate children of Catherine or Ellen.
Rosie
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Reply to Ruth ,,,
Thanks for info re Spain. Explains what my "cousins" mentioned and for the info on James P.
I was told by my gran (Lillian) that both she, Audrey and Hilda where born in the UK ... These sisters where pretty close to one another ,,, they had other siblings but I don't ever recall them mentioning them much bar the one who was drowned ,,, and I don't remember his name.
The St John could very well be linked to Rebeccas's maiden name ,,, by the way I was told it was pronounced 'sinjun' and not Saint John. I distinctly remember seeing a piece of paper once on her table and she had signed it as Lillian St John Baker .... strange as to how the St John was not registered ,, could also be that she added for some reason.
Audrey definitely did marry in the UK and sailed with Ernest to South Africa landing in Algoa Bay. That info was given to me by my late cousin (her son, much older than myself) about 8 years ago when I started looking for this family.
LOL ,,, your explaination of Hilda and Lillian could very well explain a huge family "hush-up" and the reason I didn't know that a Catherine or Ellen ever existed ,,, seeing as the other 'sisters' where so close. This made me smile as this family definitely had 'skeletons' lurking as it's been a nightmare for me to locate and match them. Could also explain why it was instilled in me that "family secrets remain family secrets" and why my sister and I had such a victorian upbringing ,,, NEVER allowed to see males until we reached the age of 18yo etc etc ,,, lol (sorry, my sense of humour)
To Rose99
What of the William and Annie mentioned earlier ? If as I strongly suspect some family secret, could William have been the brother of James Goldsworthy Courtis ? and Hilda and Lillian perhaps their children ? and for some unknown reason been 'adopted' by James G and Rebecca ?
Thanks again for the hard work everyone is doing in looking this all up. I honestly do appreciate all the information.
BCC (Bren)
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Sorry the explaination re Lillian and Hilda was from Rosie and not Ruth.
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I know its slightly backwards but I may have a hit on James Goldsworthy Courtis' parents so we may be able to go sideways and see if William was his brother. Edited: his parents are John Richard Courtis and Louisa Goldsworthy, married 1852 in Redruth. They are however as "Curtis" on the census. They are all living in Gwennap and James G is born in Gwennap.
John Richard & Louisa have (in 1861) - John (8yrs) , Martin (4), Richard (3) and George (1). No William as yet.
I can't find James and Rebecca in 1901 no matter how many different ways I can think of spelling Courtis and the 1881 is the only census I can find James on so far. Going to see if I can locate via the possible parents ;D
Another thought: Could Hilda and Lilian been born with St John as a surname and Courtis got added?
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Hi Ruth,
The name Louisa rings a strong bell ,,, from where I don't know but it was a name I had heard them mention often. Thanks for the info on James parents ,,, have added it to Rebeccas info in my family tree ... temporarily ,,, until we are certain this 'spiders-web' has been resolved.
There seems to be a shroud of mystery around James and Rebecca and their movements to and from here and the UK. They must have stopped in at the Bay of Biscay for James to be born before going on to Africa. After Catherine was born here, they must have returned to the UK as the other four children where all born there.
At some stage they could have returned to Africa then back to the UK to collect Hillda and Lillian in 1914 ,,, thus not being on the 1901 census. That would then automatically make Rebecca and James not Lillians or Hildas' parents ! Though Audrey, Hilda, Lillian and GG Courtis ,, (Rebecca as we know now) all looked alot alike.
The theory of the surname being St John and Courtis being added ... I have no idea on that one. I wondered whether the St John didn't come from their church parish they attended.
But why only on Lillians name (not sure if it was on Hilda's) and not the other supposed siblings ? Also why did they embark in Liverpool not from a harbour near Cornwall ?
Thanks Ruth
Bren
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Lillian (my gran) was born either in 1900 or 1901 in October ...
If she is the Lilian Beatrice Courtis registered September qtr 1901 her birthday would not have been October.
Rosie
It is definately not this Lilian, she got married as per freebmd
Marriage March qtr 1921 Plymouth 5b 584
Lilian B Courtis (spouse Marshall)
Marshall James H (spouse Courtis)
Rosie
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Thanks for confirmation Rosie. Back to the Rebecca / James theme of who Lillians parents where.
Bren.
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Hi
I really feel you need Lilians marriage certificate to establish who she says her parents are (hopefully she knew).
It looks as though a Mrs Courtis and family went from Southampton in 1892 - they could well be Rebecca and children. Jas, Rebecca, Hilda and Lilian came from SA to England in May 1914 and returned in September 1914. Perhaps they had stayed there from 1892, if the 1892 family were them.
I can find no trace on UK records of a birth registration for Hilda or Lilian or a marriage for Audrey all of which I find quite strange, particularly the marriage.
Rosie
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Thanks for this interesting info Rosie ,,, well, well, well ,,,, this now changes part of the so called history, which my late sister and I were lead to believe ,,, that Lillian (my gran) was born in the UK .. ! Why the secrecy or misleading info is beyond me. Somehow, I will find out ,,, as the truth always comes out. Also could explain why they were not recorded on the 1901 census.
I am already in the process of trying to obtain the marriage cert of Lillian. Now I am going to test the waters and ask for the birth cert of both Lillian, Hilda and the marriage cert of Audrey. Be interesting to see what turns up.
I feel like a pilot who has lost his flight path with this side of the family ,,, lol
Thanks again for this info.
Bren
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Hi Rosie, please let me know what all the relevant ships names where ,,, needed for my records.
thank you
Bren
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Now I am going to test the waters and ask for the birth cert of both Lillian, Hilda and the marriage cert of Audrey.
Have we found these then?
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Hi there Liz,
No not found as such ,,, I am aplying for copies of these from our Home Affairs Dept. As I don't know where Lillian and Hilda where born, nor where Audrey was married (due to it not being found in the UK records) I am going to assume that it was all here in South Africa, apply and see what they come up with. Just a chance I am taking.
Thanks for enquiring
Bren
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Hi there, I received a message from Rosie which didnt seem complete so I closed it.
For info ,,,, I think I may have worked out where the John or St John came from in both Lillian and her son (my dad) names. Both Rebecca and James P had a John in their parents names (surname and christian) and following on from the way they used to have their names given to them, so far it does seem the only likely possibility.
Thanks
Bren
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Hi there, I received a message from Rosie which didnt seem complete so I closed it.
I have PM'd you again ;D
Rosie
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Thanks a ton for the info Rosie, much appreciated.
Bren
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Hi, my name is Kristen Courtis. Aged 15. In the doccuments it ened at 1904 or something after that. The latest history of Courtis is my grandfather who is in his sixties and married with 3 kids.
That is the last generating so far.
Please reply to this message thanks.
Moderator comment: edited for content, please see next reply
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Hi Kristen
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
I'm sorry but I had to remove all the names of living people you listed as we have a 'no living people' policy here.
If you haven't already done so, please take a moment to read the guidelines for posting here
http://www.rootschat.com/help/posting_guide.php
As soon as you have 3 posts, you can use the personal message system to exchange details like this and your email address with other people.
Now, this topic strarted in 2010 and the original poster, BCC, hasn't been online here since 2011. As long as their email address hasn't chenged they should receive email notifications that we have posted and hopefully come back soon.
Hope this helps.
Dawn
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Hi Kristen,
I am sorry but BCC's emails are no longer working so we have been unable to pass on your message to them :'( I have done a search on their details but was not able to find them.
Regards
Sarah