RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Jamesk10 on Tuesday 03 August 10 18:08 BST (UK)
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I'm desperately looking to find out more about a relative. I've got really stuck with this part of the family tree.
Unfortunately I do not know many details on the relative Frederick Prinz, beyond the information in the England Census records and marriage/death records, all of which I've found on Ancestry.com.
The 1861 England Census, which is the earliest record I can find, states Frederick's birthplace as Grünebach, Altenkirchen, Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany. Later Census records from 1871 through to 1911 just state for his place of birth as Prussia, Germany, or along the lines of being a Naturalized British Subject. To be honest it's a bit confusing, but I'm going on it being around the Grünebach area using the first record.
Not sure on his exact birth date, again due to the inconsistencies between the Census records, and the marriage and death records. But I believe it is between 1838 and 1840, going on the records.
I found out he married on 29 March 1863 and died in June 1915. Both events in London. He also had several children. The records show the family remained living around London.
I'm hence really looking to find out more information about his early life, before he moved to England. Ideally I want to find out when and where he was born, when he moved to England, and any other details such as his parents.
I've already had brief correspondence with two persons in Germany, however their services for finding the records and more information are around £50 an hour, and I simply can't afford to spend a few hundred pounds on using their services. I'm really hoping there is a cheaper way forward somehow.
Any advice and help will be greatly appreciated. :)
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It might be a good idea to post your query here ...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,135.0.html
... and see if that helps ! More likely to be seen by someone who knows German resources
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Ive moved the topic - I hope you get some assistance here!
:)
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;D ;D ;D
You get everywhere AR !! ;D ;D ;D
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;D ;D ;D
You get everywhere AR !! ;D ;D ;D
Only in a good way, lol!
;D
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Thank you both Lydart and Arranroots for redirecting this thread. I wasn't sure where to post it initally.
Now just hoping someone will be able to help me out here! :)
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Berlin Bob will see this soon I expect ...
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Berlin Bob will see this soon I expect ...
.. that sounds a bit mysterious! ;)
.. well, I'll wait in eager anticipation then! :)
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=655
He's the all-knowing, all-seeing, all-doing RootsChat Uncle B-Bob ! And he lives in Berlin ... so knows useful German things.
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Hi all :)
JKeen - just wondered if you'd seen that his father is shown as 'George Prinz, Baker" on the marriage cert.
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Hi Tati :)
I do actually remember now that there was a record I found that apparently stated his father. Unfortunately since my Ancestry.com membership has now expired, and the record wasn't found through FreeBMD, it now won't let me view the details on the record. This is annoying. Unfortunately I don't know how else I can view the marriage certificate, I can't even order it from the GRO since I can't look up the source details. >:(
Yes so his father is potentially George Prinz, or rather I'd say more likely to be 'Georg Prinz' just like it's likely to actually be 'Friedrich' on the German records. So sorry I didn't mention this before.. thanks! :)
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Sending PM :)
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OK Tati just PM'd you back, thanks for the help sorting out the marriage record for Frederick. :)
I'll wait now to see if Berlin Bob or anyone else can help me out with finding out some more information.
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I have now found out a bit of basic information about the birth place:
"Grünebach is situated in the District of Altenkirchen, Rheinland-Pfalz (= Bundesland of Rhineland-Palatinate)
This Region belonged during that time to the kingdom of Prussia. Today the village is part of the municipality of Betzdorf. Before 1886 Grünebach/Altenkirchen was part of the parish of Kirchen. The church records of Kirchen 1645-1927 are in possession of the Bistumsarchiv Trier (= Diocesan Archive in Trier)."
I'm still no further forward as far as actually finding/obtaining records and information on Frederick and other relatives, though at least this seems to be a step forward. :)
If anyone can provide any more information, help or advice that would be great. :)
ps .. Berlin Bob where are you? ;)
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Berlin Bob is busy today - he should be back before long though - patience!
:)
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(See ! AR knows EVERYTHING ... its uncanny ! She must have Irish ancestors with second sight ... or something !)
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(I guess Berlin Bob must still be on holiday 8))
Just to say I've now obtained a copy of Frederick's death certificate. States that he died in 1915 at the age of 77.. hence year of birth around 1838. Not really any more information than knew already but thought I'd mention I now have the record. So death sorted, marriage sorted, just birth to sort out.
Also I've searched right through the IGI and I can find no record of him, despite searching all of Germany. Found a few Frederick's, Freidrich's, etc.. but none with father of George. It's really puzzling me.. he's being very illusive. >:(
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Patience ... B-Bob or someone who knows and can help will eventually appear ...
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The IGI isn't at all a complete database. Do you know whether the place and time frame you're looking at are indexed on the IGI at all?
Here's an index to the Batch numbers for Germany
http://www.igi-index.de/index.php?seite=batch8&lang=de
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I don't know if the place and time frame are indexed on the IGI or how I find this out? The place is around the area of Grünebach, Altenkirchen, Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany and the date is about 1839±2 years. Also, I don't understand the index of batch numbers thing.
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Just search the parish in the alphabetical list. If it's not in the list, then it isn't on the IGI at all. If it's in the list, then check what time frame and which church denomination is covered.
:)
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I just sorted through by village to 'G' to look for Grünebach. The closest I could find was 'Grumbach' listed twice as 1752-1798 and 1761-1798. So it's not looking good. :(
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At least it explains why you can't find the family on the IGI and you can move on :)
Have you already looked here?
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=localitysearch&columns=*,0,0
This will show you films that the mormons hold, and that you can order to view at the nearest LDS center.
(Don't ask me for the details, I've never done it myself but they have FAQs here if you're interested
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=localitysearch&columns)
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Yes it does make more sense now :) even if it does make the search more difficult :-\
No I hadn't already looked there..
.. I have just now, there is no records for 'Grünebach' but there is some for 'Grumbach' and 'Grunbach'.
Not sure what to do now though :-\
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'Grumbach' gives place search result of 'Germany, Preußen, Rheinland, Grumbach' which seems good since that's the area. :)
'Grunbach' gives place search result of 'Germany, Württemberg, Grunbach (OA. Neuenbürg)' which doesn't seem likely to be useful.
Using 'Grumbach' it then lists the church records, which only have one result of 'Kirchenbuch, 1752-1798 Evangelische Kirche Grumbach (Kr. Sankt Wendel)' .. which is outside of the time period I'm searching. :-\
Any advice? :)
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Sorry, I"ve never done any research in Germany.
I saw your thread on the German forum and seem to remember that they told you Grünebach belonged to a different parish back then. Did you try the alternative names they gave you?
Then of course he may not have been from Grünebach at all - I don't find the place name on the English census very clear actually :P
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Hi JK,
I'm not on holiday, but I'm very busy at the moment.
I've been following your topic here, and on the german forum too,
http://forum.genealogy.net/forum/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=42788
and I can't think of anything to add to what the others have said.
And, as has been said already, Prinz is a fairly common name in Germany and the IGI is not complete, so it's a question of adding every tiny bit of information together to help you tie in what is available, so you can eliminate the "improbables".
regards,
Bob
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OK Tati that's fine, I appreciate your help so far. :)
Hello Berlin Bob, I appreciate you taking a bit of your busy time to give some advice. :)
The England census records don't seem to agree very well with each other on his birthplace so that doesn't help much especially with my lack of researching through the German records! :-\
I've just checked the thread on the German forum and searched for the village of Kirchen which I was told Gruneback was part of there before 1866. There is a result for the church records from 1645-1927. So I think there's a good chance that Frederick's birth could be listed here. I've already contacted Bistumsarchiv Trier which I think are who I should contact to try and get access to these records, but I've yet to hear back from them. :(
I'll post this find on the German forum as well, they might be able to advice some more.
It's a good think I'm persistant ;)
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I contacted the Bistumsarchiv Trier and their response was that they do not have records for this time/place relating to my research, and hence were unable to help with my enquiry.
They advised that I instead contacted the Historisches Archiv des Erzbistums Köln with an enquiry for more information on the records.
The archive did not reply, however a helpful local researcher I also spoke to did who said that they phoned the archive of the diocese at Cologne to aks if they keep Altenkirchen records, which they don't.
I also spoke with another researcher who visited the Boppard archive to view the index of church books of Kirchen, but unfortunately the birth records for 1838 and later they do not have but should remain in the parish itself.
I was was advised that the Archiv der Evangelischen Kirche von Hessen-Darmstadt should also have records from Altenkirchen so I have contacted them.
I was then advised to also contact the Standesamt Betzdorf to enquire whether they hold the records for this time period. Their response was that they do not, and that civil records earlier to 1886 are in the possession of the churches.
So now I'm not sure what to do. I just seem to be going around in circles from place to place and not getting anywhere. :(
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Hello! ;D
I have traced my family tree back to an ancestor, Frederick Prinz, who was born in Germany.
I am hoping for some help with tracking down the details of his emigration from Germany to England. So far I have been unable to find any information on this. I have so far only been able to narrow down that he moved to England sometime after his birth around 1840 and before 1861 which is the first England record I have found for him. I don't know if he travelled alone or with other family members.
According to the England census records from 1861 through to 1911, as well as his marriage and death records, the information is that he was born around 1839-40 in Grünebach, Altenkirchen, Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany.
I have been trying to track down the birth record for Frederick, but despite correspondance with several different German archives and assistance from several researchers in Germany, the search for his birth record is still slowly continuing. So I'm not sure that the stated place of birth is definitely completely correct, and other records provide no more information on his birth place.
As far as his life in England, he married Harriet Sarah Bradford (10/5/1840-5/9/1916) on 29/3/1863 in St Mary's Church, Newington, Southwark, London. They had several children and the family remained living around London. Frederick died on 20/6/1915 in London. I know that his father was George Prinz, though I don't know any further details beyond his name and I have no information whatsoever on Frederick's mother or other close family.
I'm hopeful that I can get some help with finding out any more information on his move across the pond. :)
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Reply from Landesarchiv Nordrhein-Westfalen. Apologies that the translation from German isn't great.
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Genealogy Research - Prinz Family - 29.08.2010
Of the villages named by you, that as a place of birth of Friedrich (Frederick) Prinz, the village lain in the vicinity by which Grunebach to our jurisdiction belongs solely. For certification of the inhabitants of the village, Grunebach was at that time time the registry office Waldbröl responsible. Because your statements according to the sought Friedrich Prinz about 1838 was born, we looked through the birth indices of the registry office Waldbröl for the years around 1838 after the birth document of the above-mentioned. The looked for birth document not found. It is to be noted noticed in that the surname "Prinz" in the birth indices of the registry office Waldbröl to the questionable time does not occur. I regret that also our archive cannot help along you.
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A researcher recently visited the church archives at Boppard and whilst there conducted research on my behalf. They were able to find Friedrich Prinz, his parents and also 3 more siblings. Unfortunately there was no baptism entry for Friedrich, I guess this means either the pastor was too lazy to enter this or the parents were unable to register the birth, due to ill health or whatever. Instead found was the confirmation, which gives his birth date as well. Also obtained was the marriage entry of Georg Philipp Prinz, though unfortunately it has not been possible to decipher all that was written. I have tried to attach a scan of the church book entries to this post, but received an error, if anyone would like a copy to look at then can do this through PM.
This is the information obtained:
Source: KB No. 84/2 Fiche 3, Page 225, entry 2.
Confirmations Grumbach (Lutheran) 1852:
Friedrich PRINZ,
born 16.08.1837 Grumbach
Parents: Georg Prinz, baker and Dorothea Fehres.
Tested: 2. May 1852
Confirmed: 9. May 1852
1. Communion: 9. May 1852
Source: KB No. 84/3 Fiche 2, page 156, entry 3
Bans and Marriages Grumbach (Lutheran) 1827:
Georg Philipp PRINZ, baker of this parish, legitimate son of ......Mathe(u)s Prinz....... baker copulated on 29. May with Dorothea FEHRES of this parish, Carl Fehres, .......... and leader/member of the church committee in this parish legitimate son. (it definitely says son, not daughter!)
The couple had 3 more children, all male:
PRINZ, Karl Philipp
born 25.02.1828 Grumbach (lutheran)
PRINZ, Philipp Peter
born 24.05.1832 Grumbach (lutheran)
PRINZ, Georg Christian
born 27.07.1834 Grumbach (lutheran)
The researcher said they can assure me that the Prinz family were not shepherds as previously considered but lived and worked in Grumbach (am Glan) for a considerable time, and up until 2004 at least, found were a further two Prinz that were elected to serve as members of the parish council of Grumbach:
PRINZ, Otto - on 09.11.1952, thereafter no further entry for him.
PRINZ, Dieter - on 08.06.1969, 17.03.1974, 10.06.1979, 17.06.1984, 18.06.1989, 12.06.1994, 13.06.1999 and 13.06.2004.
This is the link to where this information was found: http://grumbach.gr.funpic.de/Gemeinderaete.html
The researcher also said that they were sure they spotted a marriage for one Georg Christian Prinz around the time of Georg Philipp Prinz and Dorothea, which they will look for on the next visit to the archives, and also try and find marriage for Mathe(u)s Prinz, in order to find his wife, but just unfortunately hadn't enough time on this visit.
... it's good to know that finally have a breakthrough after so long ;D
Kind regards,
James
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Hi James
I've just found this thread via Google. Frederick Prinz is my great-grandfather's uncle. My great-grandfather was Georg who also came to London and lodged with Frederick. His father was Georg Christian.
I noticed that this thread is quite old so wondered if you had found any further information?
I plan to visit Germany in a couple of weeks and to visit Grumbach, Callbach and the records offices so any pointers would be great.
Thanks
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Hello dbones! Great to hear from a relative! :)
It's been a while since I've done much more research on the Prinz family *dusts off folder of info*.
Yes, I have quite a bit of information regarding the family of Frederick/Friedrich and George/Georg and their ancestors. If you have access to Ancestry.com I have posted on there quite an extensive tree of the Prinz family. I will message you directly to discuss more so we don't go off-topic here.
Regarding this topic, I have still not been able to find a immigration/emigration record for Frederick (or George). It is an important bit of info that sadly I cannot make any progress with finding out about. I don't even know what port they left from, or what port they arrived at. I only know that Frederick was born 1837 in Grumbach then he's on the 1861 UK census, so he would have moved sometime between those dates. Perhaps someone else reading this thread again can shed new light on finding this information.
You say you're planning to visit Germany soon. I have sadly not yet had the chance to be able to. Be aware that the stated places of birth on UK records I've seen have all sorts of misspellings. The origin of the Prinz family is Grumbach (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumbach). On the census it showed Georg was from Callbach (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callbach) which is about 10 miles north-east, but his father and the family were all originally from Grumbach.
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Hi.
Frederick Prinz born 1837 is my 2x great grandfather. I have so far gone back to my 7x great grandfather Johann H Prinz, born 1667. The family seemed to stay in one place in Germany, Grumbach until a member moved over here to England, I seem to having trouble finding the exact time they moved here. I was always told that they were journeymen and this seemed to be the case for a while as Bakers.
Perhaps we maybe able to help each other out through research.
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Hi JennyAnn
Nice to hear from a relative. Will send you a PM to chat more.
I have similar research done of the Print(z) family in Germany around Grumbach going back several generations same as you've got to ~16c. And for later family in London. I have it all on Ancestry I'll send you a link to share/view it, if you're on there. If not can email you it. Will be good to compare what we know/don't know.
Missing piece for me has always been finding an immigration record/date for Freidrich/Frederick est.1840 from Prussia to England.
Indeed he was a baker, that's the story passed down to me also. I've searched for some information on when/where he worked but not really found anything.