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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Cambridgeshire => England => Cambridgeshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Moonraker55 on Saturday 11 September 10 21:29 BST (UK)
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I wonder if someone is able to check on the parish registers or other local documents to identify a missing link in my family. This particular link is also with the Munns family and possibly the Normans as well.
I am trying to discover the family of Martha Mary Munns of Soham who married James Taylor of Isleham. They married in the Soham area in Q1 1877 and were living in Brixton Hill area after 1880. Their first known child was William Taylor (born about 1880 in Soham), their second was Rose Anne, born 19 November 1882 and baptised in St Saviour's Brixton Hill on 7 January 1883. They were then living at 18 Elizabeth Street, Brixton.
James, Martha Mary and William were a significant part of my family in that they were not in my direct ancestry but my great grandparents were married from James and Martha's house at 39 Bartley Street, Brixton Hill in 1895. My great-grandparent's eldest daughter was sent to stay with them in 1905/06 and it was here that she developed TB and died as a consequence; it was to William that my grandfather was sent to train as a decorator, which led to his later business and others went to Brixton on similar missions at other times. My grandfather was close to Stanley William Taylor when he lived with the Taylor's in 100 Brixton Hill after the Great War, and this was the son of William Taylor and his wife Rose. We know that they were referred to as Uncle Jim and Aunt Polly (which is confusing) and also Uncle William - although of different generations. We knew that the connection came through my great grandmother who was Lucy Pleasance of Soham who went into service on Brixton Hill. Lucy was the daughter of Thomas Pleasance (1839) of Soham and his wife Phoebe (1838)(nee Munns).
These are the things that I know - what I cannot find is the direct link from Phoebe Munns to Martha Mary Munns - I am only guessing that there is one, but it seems far to coincidental that all these people should come together in Brixton from a small town such as Soham and be quite so close without a familial connection.
The marriage between James Taylor and Martha Mary Munns is in the index as Q1 1877 Newmarket 3b 702
The only birth that I have found that seems likely is in Q1 1858 registered in the Newmarket district of Martha Mary Elizabeth Munns.
As an aside Bartley Street on Brixton Hill (it is immediately adjacent to St Saviour's Church and close to the north of Brixton Prison) was Little Soham - in the 1901 Census, Rutter Norman of Soham and his family lived at 31; William Taylor of Soham and his family lived at 35; James and Martha were living at 39 and in 1904 according to the baptismal register in St Saviour's the residents at 33 were William and Rose Hannah Taylor and their children.
In the 1911 census, James and Martha have moved to 110 Brixton Hill and in addition to their remaining homebound children there is Stanley William Taylor aged 5, their grandson; there is also Mary Norman (James's mother who having been widowed from William Taylor remarried William Norman of Isleham; additionally there is a Sophia ( and the surname is unreadable but it may be Geohegan) who is James's aunt, a year older than Mary Norman and also a widow.
This is a problem that is just stumping me and the parish records may shed light that is unavailable to me here in Yorkshire.
Thanks
John
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Hi John
Trying to get to grips with all of this! I have found another possible birth reg
Martha Munns 1857 Jan-Feb-Mar Newmarket Vol 3b Page 539
Linda
PS welcome to RootsChat
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Thanks for the welcome Linda and also for the information.
I wonder if Rootschat works by osmosis too, because since making the posting here, all of three and a half hours ago, I have been contacted by a distant cousin in Queensland who has filled in many of the gaps. This birth reg is still eluding me, so your informationmay clinch it.
My distant cousin is sending me a huge file of information so I hope that there may be a baptismal record (she has copies of the parish register entries relevant to our families and with any luck this may give me a birth date too. If not, and your GRO index clue fits it roughly (i.e. the index date for the birth is not after the baptismal) then I shall make full use of the details as a signpost to confirm.
Regards
John
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Hi John
Glad to have helped. Come back if you need anything else after you've looked at the other information.
Linda
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Hi John,
Welcome!
Martha Munns Christenings from Familysearch Pilot;
Martha Elizabeth Mary MUNNS, 24 February 1858, Exning, Suffolk, England
Parents, THOMAS and HARRIOT
(Mother Harriet has remarried by 1871 Census to a Jackson)
Martha Mary MUNN, 22 December 1861, Exning, Suffolk, Mother PHOEBE
(This one seems to be Reg as Martha Ann)
Both are on the IGI also.
I have found something interesting, back soon :)
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Hi Linda,
I need a second opinion.
If you check for Thomas PLEASANCE Marriages 1855-1871 there are these;
Dec 1858, Stow, 4a 1131
1 female spouse missing
December 1863, Newmarket, 3b 1260
Only Susan Rust on page
But if you do the same for Phoebe Munns this comes up;
December 1863, Newmarket, 3b 1210
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1841 Census
Brook Dam,
Soham, Cambridgeshire
HO107/73/14/Soham
Thomas MUNNS, 40, Labourer
Ann, 40
Robert, 15
Jonas, 12
Betsy, 10
Sophia, 5
PHEBE, 3
All born in County
1851 Census
Meer Side
Soham, Cambridgeshire
HO107/1763/256/1
Thoma MUNNS, 55, Head, Mar, Labourer
Harriet, 33, Wife, Mar, born Brinkley
Sophia, 17, Daug, Unm
PHOEBE, 13, Daug, Unm
Mary, 11 Days, Daug
All others born Soham, Cambridgeshire
Marriage;
Thomas MUNNS/MUMS, September 1847, Newmarket, 14 156
On the same page is Harriet FROST
1871 Census
Soham, Cambridgeshire
RG10/1600/107/17
William JACKSON, 51, Head, Mar, Ag Lab, born Soham
HARRIET Jackson, 50, Wife, Mar, born Brinkley
Henry John MUNN, 16, Son, Unm, Ag lab, born Soham
MARTHA M Munn, 15 Daug, Unm, born Newmarket
Robert JACKSON, 65, Lodger, Ag Lab, born Soham
Marriage;
Harriett MUNNS, December 1858, Newmarket, 3b 1224
On the same page is William JACKSON
So looks like PHOEBE Munns born c 1838 who married Thomas PLEASANCE was the Half Sister of Martha Mary MUNNS.
I havent found the 1861 Census yet but will post if I find it.
Trish :)
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YEHA ;D
1861 Census
Soham, Cambridgeshire
RG9/1035/102/3
William JACKSON, 42, Head, Mar, Ag Lab, born Soham
Harriet Jackson, 41, Wife, Mar, born Brinkley
Henry J Jackson, 6, Son, born Soham
MARTHA M Jackson, 4, Daug, born Soham
John HILLS, 89, Lodger, Wid, Ag Lab, born Soham
Possible First marriage for Thomas;
Thomas MUNNS
Ann HORSLEY, 23 October 1818, Soham, Cambridgeshire
Death;
Ann MUNNS, March 1842, Newmarket, 14 74
Death;
Thomas MUNNS, 2 possibilities between 1851 census when he is alive and Dec 1858 when Harriet remarries.
1) Thomas Wing Peek MUNNS, December 1856, Newmarket, 3b 329
Also under Thomashina Peek Munns!
2) Thomas MUNNS, March 1858, Chesterton, 3b 329
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Cheaper by the dozen ;D
Mass Christening of MUNNS Children;
JAMES, 30 July 1833
BETSEY, 30 July 1833
JONAS, 30 July 1833
Also;
ROBERT, 13 June 1823,(may have died as another Robert later)
ROBERT, 10 May 1827
SOPHY, 28 February 1836
All Christened, Soham BT's, Cambridge, England to THOMAS and ANN
(Source Familysearch Pilot)
Possible Child;
ELIZA, 31 October 1819, Loham, Cambridge to a Thomas/Ann
As James does not appear on the 1841 it is hard to know when he was born.
Also on there;
Death/Burial;
Thomas MUNNS, Age 61, Born 1797, Burial 08 February 1858, Chesterton, Cambridge.
Matches Thomas's Age from 1851 Census pretty well ;)
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Hi Linda,
I need a second opinion.
If you check for Thomas PLEASANCE Marriages 1855-1871 there are these;
Dec 1858, Stow, 4a 1131
1 female spouse missing
December 1863, Newmarket, 3b 1260
Only Susan Rust on page
But if you do the same for Phoebe Munns this comes up;
December 1863, Newmarket, 3b 1210
Hi John
The original entries are handwritten and not easy to read. Phoebe's could be Page 1260. Also if you search on
December 1863, Newmarket, 3b 1210
you only get Phoebe Munns
Linda
PS Well done trish1120 - someone else hooked by this family :D
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Thanks Linda ;D
Something strange is going on there too.
But it is too late here to search anymore.
Thomas may have been married twice. First daughter Eliza, aged 11 in 1871, is the clincher.
Esp. as we now think Thomas and Phoebe didnt Marry til 1863.
If they married 1858 as a couple of Family Trees have they should appear with Eliza in 1861 Census but I cant find it.
I think I have him with another Wife and daughter Eliza a little older in 1861.
Back tomorrow night.
Trish :)
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Ignore what I said about earlier Marriage, brain not working,
Good night :)
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Hi Trish and Linda
I am very grateful for your swift and thorough response and you have signposted a couple more queries that I hope to solve. In the meantime I have just received the 76 page report from Queensland and it has a real wealth of information in it - including details of Thomas Munns' second marriage to Harriet Frost which occurred at St Andrews' Church in Soham on 12 Sep 1847. There were five children to this marriage but only two survived infancy, including the Martha Mary that I was seeking. She was the second of that name the first died at about two months of age in 1849.
The handwritten GRO index does say 1260 it was mistranscribed, I enhanced it and then searched on the same index reference and came up with Thomas Pleasance. So we know they were married in 1863 in Q4 but there's is one of the few marriages that I have no record of in the parish register details that have been sent to me.
I am intrigued about Linda's postscript to Trish - how many people are there looking for this family? I now have solved the links with all the Taylors and Normans in Brixton and have them all arising from families in Soham and Isleham. I am happy to share what information that I have, but I am conscious that much of the stuff relating to the Munns family is in fact the work of someone else and so I shall not be publicly broadcasting the contents except to do look-ups if needed.
Back to 1891 in Bartley Street: Rutter Norman is the nephew of James Taylors' step-father William Norman - is that a step-cousin? William Taylor in 35 is James's brother; James is married to Martha Mary Munns and their eldest son William (who occupies 33 Bartley Street by 1906) is the father of Stanley William Taylor. I have the baptismal, marriage and other documentation for a large number of these people and the previous generations. Martha Mary signs with a mark the death certificate as informant and aunt of the deceased for my great-aunt Ellen Maud who stayed with Martha and James from 1905 and where she died of TB in 1906.
It is all fascinating stuff and it is a shame that Bartley Street no longer exists because I would liked to have obtained photographs of these houses together. I might ask the good folk of the Minet Library in Brixton if they have anything in their archive.
This is really important to me also because Brixton Hill was where my Cambridgeshire and Wiltshire families got together - without Brixton Hill I would not be here! My parents moved us to the area in 1956 and I have a large number of early memories from around the district, including my first school. My uncle was a postman from the late 40s until the 70s operating out of the sorting office that was close to the end of Bartley Street and covering a beat of Brixton Hill and Tulse Hill. My great grandfather, besides marrying at St Saviours from 39 Bartley Street, first came to London from Wiltshire as a drover with a herd of cattle for Smithfield. He got a job with the wonderfully named Balls brothers Omnibus company as the 'cock horse' man for the buses on Brixton Hill ( he had the spare or cock horse to hitch to the two already hitched to the bus to get them up Brixton Hill), the remnants of their livery stable is still visible; he later became a roundsman with a milk delivery company and that, according to family lore, is where he met Lucy Pleasance who was in service in a house in St saviours Road (adjacent to Bartley Street). So, if I can help anyone with all this then I shall, in the meantime, thanks very much for the efforts that you have gone to.
Regards
John
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PS Well done trish1120 - someone else hooked by this family
I am intrigued about Linda's postscript to Trish - how many people are there looking for this family?
I should have phrased this better :D I can't speak for Trish, but I have no interest in this family except as a challenge. It's one of those where you start pulling at a thread and all sorts of things come with it - great fun!
Glad to have helped :D
Linda
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Hi John,
I am in the same Boat as Linda. I am not related at all to this family but that is what Rootschat is about- going the extra mile to try and help others .
The best thing about all this that anyone searching in the future for info on any of these lines will find this, join Rootschat and contact you.
I found all the background you gave to your ancestors really fascinating and obviously dear to your heart.
Best of luck in the future,
Trish :)
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Thanks Trish
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I have not digested all the references above but..
Thomas MUNNS m Ann HORSLEY 23 Oct 1818 (with consent of parents)
Bapt: 31 Oct 1819 Eliza
13 Jun 1823 Robert, bur 18 Feb 1825
10 May 1827 Robert
17 Apr 1834 James, bur 1 Oct 1834
28 Feb 1836 Sophy
10 Jun 1838 Phebe
Burial 4 Feb 1842 Ann MUNNS
Thomas MUNNS wdwr m Harriet FROST sp, 12 Sep 1847
Bapt: 18 Jul 1849 Martha Mary, privately baptised
9 Sep 1849 Martha Mary - both were dau of Thomas and Harriet, was there a public baptism too?
Burial 23 Sep 1849 Martha Mary, infant
23 Jan 1850 William MUNNS, Infant (related?)
Phebe/Phoebe MUNNS bapt 1838 m Thomas PLEASANCE in 1863, don't know where but not in Soham, though both were born there.