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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Lesley_A on Monday 25 October 10 23:57 BST (UK)
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Hi Chatters,
My 2g-grandfather Frederick HENRY, born abt October 1809, was convicted at the Old Bailey 08 July 1830 of stealing a handkerchief, value 3/-. the property of Mr Lawson. He was given Life, and transported to Australia.
For many years, I have been searching for him, to no avail. He was not your average convict - could read and write, and his Convict Indent gives his occupation as Actor, Hatter (3 years) and Clerk.
According to his NSW Death Certificate, his parents were Thomas HENRY (a Clerk), and Elizabeth JONES. But, I cannot find Frederick's birth in London (or indeed, anywhere else), or the marriage of his supposed parents.
(He and his Irish-born wife Cecilia McGOWAN had 11 children, the eldest being Elizabeth, and a middle son being Thomas).
Help, anyone? I noticed just yesterday that a Queensland Chatter's interests included a HENRY convict who was really HARVEY ... so, I am trying again with my difficult Fred.
(HARVEY? HERVEY? Was his name mis-read, somewhere along the line?).
Grateful for any help with this - I have puzzled over it for more than a decade, now.
Cheers,
Lesley
(In sunny Nundle, NSW, Australia)
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Hi
If he was convicted at the Old Bailey then before and after the trial (before going to the hulks) he may have been held at Newgate prison. The National Archives holds the prison registers for Newgate (there is nothing online) which usually, along with a description of the prisoner, give a place of birth.
The registers for July 1830 are in PCOM2/200 and 201
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=6&CATID=1722048&SearchInit=4&SearchType=6&CATREF=pcom2%2F201
The National Archives in-depth guide
Criminals in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/criminals-18th-20th-centuries.htm
This is a newly revised guide so (like all the new guides) not all the links to documents held at TNA are live.
The National Archives
Looking for a person gives links to court records
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/default.htm
Regards
Valda
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I wonder if he was Frederick Henry X and that he just dropped his surname when we was deported. No-one in Australia would have known any different. I don't know if it's possible to search the Old Bailey records on Christian names only.
Lizzie
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Hi there,
Frederick HENRY was transported on the Lady Harewood in 1831 and received Tickets of Leave # 41/1482 and 42/305 at Dungog (NSW)... then later his Colonial Pardon 30 Jul 1847 # 47/646. I think in 1850 he got land ...
The above info is from online indexes at NSW State Records Office http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/keyname.aspx
I'll see if I can find any more info, as it seems likely that this would be your chap. The T o L or the CP should have his age and place of birth and any alias names etc.
Cheers, JM
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Hi,
The several convict records for my ancestor, which covered roughly the same period as yours, gave only the county as native place. (But I was luckier than you in that his lunatic asylum records gave his actual birthdate and place.) The only other place I can think of for your situation is the birth certificate for your man's youngest child assuming the child was born when civil registration took place and Dad's details are recorded. Otherwise the latest marriage or death certificate of the children should have Dad's details. Regards, Gazania
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Hi there,
Edit to remove reference. Thanks to Moderator for providing the thread, please accept my apologies
1. Middlesex 1830, Henry, Frederick ;D Old Bailey etc
2. Transportation Register, Frederick Henry ;D Convicted at Middlesex, Gaol Delivery to Lady Harewood with Convicted Date 8 July 1830, Voyage date 15 Oct 1830 to NSW ;D
So I think he was tried as Frederick HENRY ;)
Cheers, JM
Moderator comment
please read the topic on the London and Middlesex board about posting Ancestry lookups
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,406223.0.html
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Hi there,
Frederick HENRY's 8 July 1830 trial is online at http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/
The charge : stealing 1 handkerchief, value 3 shillings, the goods of John LAWFORD (not Lawson). He was aged 20, and was sentenced to transportation for Life ...
I cannot find any "alias" mentioned anywhere Y E T ... ;)
Cheers, JM
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Hi Chatters,
Many thanks for all the replies.
I have attached Fred's NSW Death Certificate ... at the end of his life, he ran the Union Hotel in Dungowan Creek, and died of a bad cold. (This, for a man who stole a handkerchief, and pleaded Intoxication as his excuse) :)
It *does* say his birthplace was London - my question being, how much of his own evidence (or that of his family) can be relied on? In particular, his convict past was concealed ... with family legend (and a couple of small published bios) claiming that he was a soldier, who decided to stay in Oz when he should have moved to India.
(I spent *years* fighting through thickets of false information - even a copied Marriage Transcript had an extra witness, Thomas COOK JP, tossed in).
Multiple ironies - this same Thomas COOK actually appears on Fred's record of Pardon.
(So, definitely a knowledgeable cooking of the books) ;D
Cheers,
Lesley
Moderator comment
Certified copies of certificates are copyrighted. It is alright to place a section of the image online to help with deciphering for instance, but not the whole image. Please transcribe the full information found on certificates instead.
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Hi there,
Following on from gazania's suggestions re NSW civil registrations ;)
Do you have transcripts of either of these birth registrations?
1858 William HENRY (parents Frederick & Cecilia) registered Murrurundi ref 9706 (possibly born 28 Jan as per an online submitted tree)
1861 Cecilia HENRY (parents Frederick & Cecilia) registered Tamworth ref 13164 (possibly born 29 Dec 1860 as per same online submitted tree)
I realise you are looking for Frederick's origins, ;) so several more questions :
Could he be born to non-conformist parents (ie not C of E) ... I'm not sure if non-conformist baptisms are easily found online.
He could read and write ... perhaps he had been apprenticed in London .... have you considered looking for apprenticeship papers
Re "relying on" information from 'official records' .... well I think he was aged 20 when tried in July 1830, as the court recorded that ... but it would be info he gave at that time (as well as his surname etc) ... After the ceasation of transportation to NSW (C 1840)society tried to hide details about convict origins ... to the extent that NSW official records were frequently ordered to be destroyed (hence the scant archival material which is only found through searching at many different locations) ... So it would be unusual if oral history passed down through 187-'s to mid 1960's that actually included ANY reference to convict forebears ... so don't be worried about family legends etc ...
Have you searched online recently at the pilot site ... it has extracted records not sure if non-conformist churches are included... here's the link http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#start
Cheers, JM
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No, I don't have the birth records of either William or Cecilia. One record I *do* have is the convicts on the "Lady Harewood", where he is again listed as age 20, and his native place given as Middlesex.
(Although others on the same page have their NP given as London).
Could he be a Nonconformist? Anything is possible ... although I have searched the Nonconformist records, too, and not found him. I can say that their daughter Mary Jane HENRY (my g-grandmother) was baptized (in Clarence Town) as a Catholic ... whether because of her Irish mother, I am not sure.
She *was*, all the same, married by a C of E minister (in her father's house, in Woolomin), and in other records I have (such as parents of children at Dungowan Lower Public School), Fred is listed as C of E.
Apprenticeship papers ... yes, I have thought about that as a possibility (if he was trained as a Hatter), but have not managed to find anything. (Any guidance on that would be much appreciated) :)
I believe age 20 is *probably* correct - at least, it accords with the age on his Death Certificate (entered by my Danish great-grandfather, John ALBERTSON).
And yes, I *have* searched those Family Search Pilot records, as recently as yesterday. Sadly, no Frederick HENRY within cooee ... the published bio has him as born in the area of St Giles Cripplegate, which I think comes from the Frederick HENRY (son of Elizabeth) who was christened there.
But really not possible - the age of *that* Fred is way out ... old enough to be my Fred's father ;D
Cheers,
Lesley
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Some more thoughts
a) He came under a Life sentence ... and married in NSW 1842 ... perhaps he still needed permission to marry as his Colonial Pardon came in 1847 ... Would his permission to marry have recorded his origins, could it be indexed online?
b) He was in London in June 1830, aged 20 (was this an approximation after reading dc giving 62 years 11 months 5 Sept 1872)... could he be working in the area when he was arrested ... the trial gives the name of the owner of the handkerchief, and also the business partner of that owner was a witness because the owner was away in Ireland on business. So what was their business, where was it located and what nearby businesses would have needed someone who could read and write... and have sufficient coin to become intoxicated on say late 2nd June 1830 and not remember what he did on 3rd June until the next morning ;)
Historic Directories online http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/
Handkerchief owner : John LAWFORD
Business Partner (witness) : John MABSON (could be MARSON)
c) Have you found Thomas HENRY and Eliza* (nee Jones) on the 1841 or later UK census ... where born, other siblings for Frederick, etc (thinking of any naming patterns in the children of Frederick & Cecilia)
EDIT TO ADD 3 June 1830 was a Thursday
Cheers, JM
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Here's mention of his CP in the newspapers
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/37130639
The Australian Tuesday 19 October 1847 (Henry, Frederick) ;)
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/694552
Maitland Mercury Wed 20 Oct 1847
You mentioned he was a hatter ... I'm presuming this would be from the newspapers giving his description, and noting his place of trial as Middlesex ... http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2212623 after he absconded 12 June 1833, aged 23
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM,
To answer your last question first ... no, I can *not* find any plausible Thomas HENRY (in particular). Nearest I found was a canvas merchant listed in the India Office records ... not exactly a *Clerk*, and his wife was not Elizabeth :P
Many Elizabeth HENRYs, including this one mentioned as a witness in a case 11th April 1821. Mary Kallard was the defendant:
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/
(But, I suspect the appeal is St Giles's - which I have already declared to be a red herring) :P
Others of that name, of course ... I have recently been down a track with an Elizabeth HENRY of St Pancras, with investments in the West Indies ... she even had sons who were Clerks, and had the right given names.
But, no! Husband was *not* Thomas ... I just can't find a pair with the right names married to each other <sigh>
So, were they not married to each other? *Elizabeth* seems, from the children's names, to be more important - the first Elizabeth died, and then another child was called Elizabeth ... while *Thomas* was down in the pecking order (and was also the given name of Cecilia's father, Thomas McGOWAN).
(But, if Fred did not have a father, who paid for his education?).
Cheers,
Lesley
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Speculations from me ::)
After re-reading the trial
June 1830, Freddy and his mate were both (apprentice) hatters and John Lawford was perhaps a legal eagle with John Marson, perhaps they were associated with the Drapers Guild etc ... and that would perhaps include Master hatters .. 3 June, Lawford and Marson were walking along, Freddy and his mate were staggering along same street ... Freddy stumbled, grabbed the coat to stop himself hitting the un-even road, and only latched onto the hanky. Lawford grabbed Freddy and held him and got a constable's attention (perhaps Lawford or Marson were well respected and known to the constable), letting the other intoxicated lad stumble off into the shadows.. What was Marson doing ... standing still or what !
Freddy's father was a clerk ... perhaps a legal clerk or the like... Freddy was being taught a lesson by his father, so Thomas did not stand up to attest his son's intoxicated mischief ... WHY ... what else had Freddy done previously ... Was Freddy the younger son, if Thomas was alive and in London when Freddy got caught, then perhaps Thomas had older son to carry on the family name .... The other lad does NOT get caught, no one even looks for him, the hanky is not ever "lost" and quickly returned to its owner ... yet one lad gets life and the other gets no apparent punishment ... Is this because Freddy at some stage in London had a duel with some as yet unknown person ... Freddy had a long scar near his mouth by 1833 ... was it earned in UK or in NSW ...
There's a Sir John LAWFORD mentioned in the historic directories, and he has legal practice with his brother (Edward) and they represent the Drapers Guild and are London based ... but its from 1841 ....
Freddy accepts his sentence and has an escape from his London origins ... to a better life in NSW ..
I'm intrigued, so I have speculated ;) please take it with a grain of salt ;)
Cheers, JM
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Attached is a pic of Fred HENRY and his wife Cecilia.
His Convict Indent says he was 5ft 5-1/2, with a ruddy complexion and brown hair. Also has the comment *Long diagonal scar along left side of mouth and wants point of left forefinger*.
(Definitely *wants* - others have the word as *warts*).
Finger in this photo much studied in the long debate over whether or not he was a convict - but IMHO, it is truncated :)
Cheers,
Lesley
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Hi
Having extensively used criminal records both in this country and Australia, the one record which might give an exact birthplace, where other records have not, is as stated previously the Newgate prison register (down to the parish). Sadly the information is not online and often overlooked because it is more difficult to obtain. Prisoners were held before their trial at the Old Bailey as it was the prison adjacent to the court and had a below ground passage way along which prisoners walked to the court.
http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/IST/IST537/1192779.jpg
There is some indication Frederick Henry was held at Clerkenwell House of Correction - most likely 'New prison' and not Cold Baths Fields, the Middlesex House of Correction also at Clerkenwell. Registers for these prisons do not survive, so you have to hope he was transfered from Clerkenwell to Newgate before the trial. This may not be the case.
The Guildhall Library information leaflet on apprenticeships
http://217.154.230.218/NR/rdonlyres/23C47909-11A8-419D-8E1C-EE39C6FA7627/0/18ApprenticeshiprecordsVHMarch2010.pdf
Regards
Valda
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Hi there,
The London Gazette is online http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/ and so I have looked for John Mabson (the hanky owner !)
Very interesting ... at the trial in June 1830 John Lawford states he is the business partner for John Mabson... so I wonder why the London Gazette Issue 18518 of 28 October 1828 has them dissolving their business ... something is NOT adding up the chronology is reversed ::)....
26 July 1828 ... two entries, one immediately after the other my summary as follows:
a) Abraham Lawford and Son, Blanket Manufacturers, at Mill Bridge near Leeds, York, dissolve their business, witness Abm Lawford and John Lawford
b) John Mabson and Co, Merchants, at Mill Bridge near Leeds, York, dissolved, and the partners listed were : John Mabson, of No. 30, Alderruanbury, London, and Abraham Lawford and John Lawford, of Mill-Bridge, near Leeds
I'm probably side-tracking, sorry Lesley, perhaps John Lawford and John Mabson commenced a partnership without Abraham Lawford involved ... BUT ... at least there's a possible address for the crime scene ... 30 Alderruanbury London ... which I think would be near the Guildhall ... hopefully there may be hatter manufactories in that vicinity in the 1820's :D
Cheers, JM
PS I have edited my earlier post to remove reference to where I was looking at an image...
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Hi Chatters,
First of all, *many* thanks for all the responses you sent yesterday. Just great - and you got my braincells stirring again, after my HENRY research had taken a back seat :D
So, what next? I think there is something not standard about Frederick's birth, but what is it? Could Frederick HENRY have been a stage name, if he was an Actor? Did his mother re-marry, so that Thomas HENRY was his stepfather, not his father?
(I have been down that track as well, without finding anything useful).
Or, was he perhaps born in another country, but sent back to London at an early age, to be educated?
Here is *one* record from the 1851 Census that might fit those ideas ... it even brings in an alcohol connection (and the siblings have the right names):
***
1851 census
173, Brick Lane, Christchurch, Tower Hamlets
HENRY, Thomas Head Unmarried 36 Brewer Hanbery & Cooper Dermerer West Indies
HENRY, Eliza Sister Unmarried 33 St George Middlesex
PATTENDEN, Barden Servant Unmarried 22 General Servant Wednesbury Kent
HO107 1543 Folio: 317 Page:30
Moderator comment: Edited for content because of copyright issues
Please read
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,282820.0.html
The muddled accounts I have of Fred also say that he played the violin ... to which is added that it was a *Strad*, which got smashed to pieces by a cricket ball while it was hanging on the wall.
(In Dungowan Creek? Errr, I don't *think* so) ;D
Cheers,
Lesley
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Hi there,
Re RG107; 1543; 317; 30
Somethings don't make sense to me... Frederick was 20 in 1830 at his trial. The Thomas Henry and his sister Eliza in that 1851 record may be candidates to be Frederick's brother and sister judging by their ages, far too young to be his parents (or step parents) ... Eliza would have been born eight years AFTER her son, and she's recorded as the SISTER of Thomas Henry :-X :-X :o However, do you think the West Indies town could be Demerara (as in the sugar ;D )
And have you looked for births on the IGI for Frederick Henry and or Thomas Henry born in the West Indies ? From his indent papers etc, what was his complexion or colouring ...
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM,
Sorry, I went from one thing to another >:(
I really want an Elizabeth JONES to marry a Thomas HENRY (as per Fred's Death Cert). but there's no such marriage in Family Search. (I've just been looking *again*).
The Thomas and Elizabeth from the West Indies I thought could be Fred's younger brother and sister (named after their parents). I have been down a track with an Elizabeth HENRY from St Pancras who had West Indian investments and children (with the right names, right occupations) born there - but her husband was *not* Thomas.
(Drats!).
West Indian records on the IGI are the pits - although the name HENRY certainly occurs there. Clutching at straws ... but on the other hand, where *are* Fred's parents? Or any relatives?
Only other search that has been this hard involved a Danish sailor who used the name Charles LAWSON in Oz (and whose Irish wife had mangled the Bible entries). But, we found him in the end ... birth name Nils Christian LARSEN.
(Withnames reflected in his children's names - *once* you knew the answer) 8)
Cheers,
Lesley
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Butting in, Sorry
Re Violin and rural NSW in 19thC .... entirely possible that fake "Strads" were plentiful, and perhaps backyard cricket too!
I recently attended 100th birthday celebrations for my Violin teacher, whose father, grandfather and great grandfather all were violin teachers, and all born up around Armidale NSW. My teacher was also concert violinist and lots of info on professional performances online Aust newspapers for my teacher and HER father.
I have just phoned teacher and asked about Fake Strads. She thinks these were very popular in her father's youth and were apparently made in a workshop in The Strand Arcade in Sydney and sold by commission agents touring NSW in wagons (cheaper and easier to transport than pianos etc) Apparently the varish was very poor quality and shrank after exposure to the dry arid air west of the Blue Mountains, this would make everything brittle and frail and the bridge was poorly constructed....
I feel Frederick Henry was most likely his real name, its the name under which he was tried when aged 20. If it is not his real name, then it seems to me that it was certainly his KNOWN BY name.
Have you checked for any births for HENRY around Leeds circa 1810 in case John Lawford or John Mabson were 'settling a personal score' against Freddy afterall Freddy stated in court that he had NO memory of the offence, and no one asked him to name his associate in the crime, and no attempt recorded to find the associate. If you got a Life sentence, and your mate got off and away, would you not try to appeal the sentence or anticipate being asked about your associate and at least ASK questions in the court ... there's a month between the offence and the trial, plenty of time to find your own witnesses or at least advertise in the London newspapers for same ;D ;D....
Teddles
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Hi Teddles,
I would believe that about the violin ... the comment I read says "A Strad according to the label in it" (and I doubt that genuine ones - of which there were apparently *two* in Australia - came with a stick-on label) :)
Cheers,
Lesley
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hi there,
I'm new to this site, so i don't know that much info about it, but the reason I'm here is my grandfather is john Henry Morgan and i believe i could be a very distant relative. If not its all interesting anyway. I was looking thru my 85 year old grandfathers old photos and cleaning up the house ready to sell and came across a family tree.
some of the information matches up with the Frederick Henry you are talking about and I believe his sister Elizabeth is my great great grandmother.
In the list of the family i have; (this is line for line as written on the paper)
Thomas HENRY m Elizabeth Jones begot
Frederick HENRY born London 1809 m Cecilia McGowan b Ireland 1826
James m Mary White
Edward m Sarah Asbery, Sarah Hansaker, Mary Noyes, nee Asbery
Fredrick bachelor, 1856-1926
John died young, twin of Frederick
Mary Jane m 1852-78 m John ALBERTSON
Elizabeth married John MORGAN
Thomas m Elizabeth Davidson
William m Janet White
Cecilia Jane m James HYDE 1st, James BLAKE 2nd (moree peop.)
My great great grandmother is Elizabeth m John Morgan they had 14 kids and my great grand father was Martin Morgan who was a police officer. He married Florence Feild and had one child John Henry Morgan. J.H.Morgan married Thelma Jean Jones
They had 4 kids my mother the Youngest Catherine has 2 children me and my younger sister.
Anyway I have more dates and information about all the extended family. I'm sure there is someone with some information in the family, unfortunately my grandfather is not the best person to talk to about this as he is starting to suffer dementure and has always been difficult to talk to. I do know that his origins are from Ireland, the Meath and possibly the Cork area. I only found this out from a text message from my mother while i was in Ireland last year.
I don't know if this is relevent or if I'm even on the right track but some of the names mentioned in your post were matching the information i have.. also i have loads of old photographs of family members which may match up or resemble if you have similar.. I just thought it was all interesting and thought id say hi.. let me know if it matches up.
any questions feel free to ask.. and if you really want to talk to my grandpa on this he love to talk about himself and his family on and on... so much no one in our family listens.. sad.. but old age will get the best of him soon so maybe now is the time to start digging on the family history...
Alicia
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Hi Alicia,
Definitely the right family - I have your Martin MORGAN in my tree as born in Nundle, NSW (pop. 300), which is where I now live :)
The Elizabeth HENRY you refer to is a daughter, not a sister. I am once again in a cloud of Doubt over Fred and his origins, with the *only* source of information being, as far as I know, the data on his NSW Death Certificate.
(The informant being my great-grandfather, his son-on-law, John ALBERTSON).
If you have *anything* else about Fred, I would love to have it. Much of what was written about him is (unfortunately) garbage, written by the family in the days when a convict past was something to be covered up, rather than flaunted. <sigh>
Lesley
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Hello Alicia,
I am a great grandaughter of Elizabeth Henry and John Morgan - I would be delighted to talk to you privately in relation to the Morgan's. I have information which would be off assistance in your research and would love to swap information etc.
Fantastic to see you post.
Julie
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Hi Alicia,
Cecilia Jane m James HYDE 1st, James BLAKE 2nd (moree peop.)
I wonder, is this marriage actually right? I have Cecilia married 1st to James HYDE, but 2nd to William KNOX in Tamworth (in 1900).
(A descendant of that marriage, Bruce KNOX, has published some articles about Fred).
Also, I think her name was just Cecilia, not Cecilia Jane ... has there been a mix-up here, I wonder?
Cheers,
Lesley
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hey Julie.. and Leslie
yea sounds good.. I downloaded Family Tree Builder from myheritige.com today and have been going thru all the scrappy bits of paper i have about the family to add as much info as possible.. lol what else to do on a rainy day...
my great grandpa is martin morgan, wondering what your relation is,, but yea im up for getting to know the family history... im only new to this site so i guess you can privatly post but i dont know how yet..
I think my aunty has some info and im waiting to hear back from her too..
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as for the cecilia and her marriages, i just coppied word for word from a typed up paper i found in J H Morgans messy garage.. I thought i was lucky to find it.. lol he's a horder. wonder if that runs in the family... lol amounst other things
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Hi Alicia,.
I am James Andrew Morgan's grandaughter - Martin and James were brothers!!!! So Martin was my Great Uncle.. I have been wanting to get info on Martin - you are my link - brilliant.
As for hording - YES it runs in the family - thankfully .LOL I am good at it, but....only the good stuff like family history- which has been a great asset. Can you contact me on (*) for further details - can't wait to share.
Kind regards
Julie
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Hi Chatters,
Well, the Newgate Prison Register PCOM 2/201 has now been searched - and here is the result:
***
Frederick Henry
20
5/7 fairbrohaz Stouth.
St. Martins
Labourer
***
A photo of the record is being sent to me - but apparently, that means 5 ft 7 in, fair complexion, brown hair and hazel eyes, stoutish.
Nothing new there - but a *Labourer* (when his Convict Indent says Actor, Hatter (3 years) and Clerk.
St. Martins is probably St. Martins in the Fields - and there is no Frederick HENRY baptized there, in or around the right date. So, some more sleuthing needed ... was he Frederick someone else, and his mother remarried? Or, so I need to sift through *all* the males baptized in that parish at about the right time, looking for one who has disappeared.
(Not married, not buried, not found in the 1841 Census).
So, progress of a sort - but the puzzle continues :)
Cheers,
Lesley
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Hi
Labourer can be used at this time as a catch all generalistic term - a member of the labouring classes.
Regards
Valda
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Cecilia McGowan remarried after Fredericks death. her death was originally reported as a murder? she dropped dead outside the Marquis of Lorn in Peel Street Tamworth. there was an inquest held and the official finding was "death from excessive drinking". her husband married the "household help" the month following Cecilia's death
Elizabeth and John Morgan are also my great grandparents
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Hi Alyssa,
Funny, that you have come up with exactly the same results, *including*the Marriage Cert that I bought and scanned in for another researcher on 18 January last ;D
You have just made one small error - it was the Marquis of *Lorne* Hotel (not the Marquis of Lorn).
But I guess that is microscopic, in the scale of things - where we have Fred as both a convict and *not* a convict at the same time ... indeed, a policeman and a good pal of Thomas COOK, J.P., who attended his wedding at the Dungog Court House.
Ah, call me old fashioned ... but I happen to believe that research should be more than just cobbling together *any* bits of paper with the words Frederick HENRY written on them. Things like engaging your necktop computer in the proceedings - and at least acknowledging the sources of particular items of research, so that you don't make the oops! of announcing it back to the source as something you yourself have found.
(And, presumably, paid for) ;D
Cheers,
Lesley
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Thanks Leslie
A member of ancestry sent me the info on Cecilia and I went back to records and got the coroners report to ensure that is was true.
I am in awe of your work, it is fabulous to see that you take a piece of information and just delve so far into it.
It is incredibly time consuming and expensive isn't it. I have bought so many birth death and marriage certificates and I end up having gone off on the wrong tangent.
it appears that many people doing their ancestry project just grab a fact and run with it, one wrong name or fact then it is all "corrupted"
Shame another person on the forum is only willing to give their information privately though, what can be so bad that you wouldn't share almost ancient family history.
Regards
Ally
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Thanks Leslie
A member of ancestry sent me the info on Cecilia and I went back to records and got the coroners report to ensure that is was true.
I am in awe of your work, it is fabulous to see that you take a piece of information and just delve so far into it.
It is incredibly time consuming and expensive isn't it. I have bought so many birth death and marriage certificates and I end up having gone off on the wrong tangent.
it appears that many people doing their ancestry project just grab a fact and run with it, one wrong name or fact then it is all "corrupted"
Shame another person on the forum is only willing to give their information privately though, what can be so bad that you wouldn't share almost ancient family history.
Regards
Ally
Hi there,
May I presume that this would be Mrs Oldham's death, April 1881 registered in the NSWBDM's district of Tamworth (#10687) ? You could post on the Australian RChat board and receive lots of helpful advice and assistance ;)
Re you question about sharing information privately only, and your suggestion that there could be something so bad that you wouldn't share almost ancient family history. In my view there are many reasons for not uploading family history information to any website. It usually has nothing to do with the "bad" or the "good" of the ancestors. It is usually to do with ensuring that you are not providing details that lead to identifying living persons. In Australia living persons have a lawful expectation to privacy.
Here's the link to the RChat main Australian Board
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,165.0.html
I hope you are not offended by my butting in on your conversation. I was using the RChat search option to look for recent posts re Peel Street Tamworth.
Cheers, JM (NSW centric)
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No probs with your comment. I understand the privacy issues completely, my comment actually said" ancient family history", just if we are all searching for the same info, why would a contributor ask for help with info and then not be kind enough to share what they have for the benefit of all
Cheers
Ally
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No probs with your comment. I understand the privacy issues completely, my comment actually said" ancient family history", just if we are all searching for the same info, why would a contributor ask for help with info and then not be kind enough to share what they have for the benefit of all
Cheers
Ally
:) Actually you wrote "almost ancient family history"
Did you look at the contents of the Coroner's Report, or just at the Image of the Index of the Reports?
One of the reasons people ask for help is to learn further about their ancestors. One of the reasons it is not then shared for everyone to read is simply that there are many evil persons around who if they were seeking to CON elderly neighbours out of say some cash money, they could easily obtain the names of the neighbours deceased parents or deceased cousins etc by using family history information gleaned from the web. Another reason could well be simply that there are copyright issues if sharing documents. The information in the documents may be shared, but the documents or images of those documents may be subject to copyright. Another reason could be that if uploading a family tree to a commercial website, then they may be uploading both their paternal and maternal lines. It seems logical to me that it could then be that lazy researchers could then copy both those lines and insert both into their own tree. Thus linking into their own tree many people who are in no way connected to their own family tree.
I am sure there are many other reasons for not uploading research to the web. I share my own family history research with persons whom I have found to be in my own tree and who have expressed an interest in sharing in return. I do not upload my tree to the web. I tend to enjoy doing my own research, and helping others with their research, by giving them index references or transcribing from my NSW offline reference books.
Also, I tend to think of records as being of two main types. Primary records (for example, birth certificates with the parents and siblings details for the person whose birth is being registered, (marriage, death certs too); official archived records held in recognised Archives eg NSW State Records Office holdings for land grants etc with applicant's details in the applicant's own hand; to Secondary records .... eg newspaper cuttings, or INDEXES eg the NSW BDM online INDEX .... or the Index for the Coroner's Reports....
I have living relatives who were born before and during WWI. They are very much alive and alert and are very insistent on making sure that their names and other identifying details are not uploaded to any family history website. This is because they wish to protect their descendants from Identity theft or other privacy invasions. Yes, their names and addresses are on the Electoral Rolls that Ancestry has made available online, so too am I on those rolls. Some of my "almost ancient" living relatives have resided at their current address since their births. They would of course be offended if I said to any of them "Hello you almost ancient relatives".... They much prefer me to phone and say "Well you can hear that I haven't kicked the bucket, and as you have answered your phone, I can hear that you haven't yet either"... :)
Cheers, JM
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hi
thanks, I get all that and respect your opinion, just in our family we have a member that thinks he "owns" all the family history and that he has intellectual rights around it, which means the rest of us struggle when it could be so easy. for example he insists that a relative John Morgan died in Qld when in fact I have now proved at great cost that he died in Queens Park in WA
Anyway (lol) there is in every family one of his type
I will just keep plodding along as I was before
Ally
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From an Index to Inquests and Magisterial Inquiries page 5804
Name of Deceased: Oldham Cecilia
Age : 55 years
Where born: Ireland
Location where death occurred : “Marquis of Lorne Hotel”, Tamworth
Cause of Death : Excessing drinking
Value of property possessed by the Deceased: Deceased was married. It did not appear she had any separate estate.
Other Remarks : (nothing recorded)
Source : NSW Government Gazette 1882 (exact page number cited above)
When there's someone who thinks he/she "owns" it all, don't keep banging your head, move on as though you have knocked over a slight hurdle. He has legal rights to his own published works, but no one owns the information in the official records that are made available to members of the general public. It is up to you if you share your research with him, but that does not mean he has to share his research with you.
But do remember to carefully study the original records, or at least aim to get to those original records for yourself. I have such very happy memories of being at NSW Archives and carefully studying original records. My interest in family history is of many decades duration, it is a hobby for a lifetime. I am always keen to find new things to do with my forebears. And in my experience you will come across persons who think they are the only person qualified to be the owner of the information. Neither you nor the other researchers OWN the information. But as a hobby, it is not worthy of any family history buff to get offended by the unwillingness of others to share their own research. Afterall, it is your chosen hobby, just as it is other persons' chosen hobby. How we conduct ourselves when at our own chosen hobbies is our own choice.
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
Noticing that the Marquis of Lorne Hotel definitely had "e" in that spelling at that time.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/70955026 Australian Town and Country Journal 23 April 1881
“Tuesday, April 19
It is reported in Tamworth that a woman named Mrs Oldham was robbed and murdered last night in the vicinity of the Marquis of Lorne Hotel. An inquest on the body is to be held this afternoon.......
The inspector of police reports to the head office that Tamworth is singularly free from crime; yet every issue of the local papers records some new crimes”.
I think the report of the apparent robbery and murder of Mrs Oldham may be caught up in the Journal’s editorial comment re crimes at Tamworth, as the cutting has detailed another apparent crime as well.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/816811 Maitland Mercury 23 April 1881 “Mrs Oldham, formerly Mrs Henry, of Dungowan, died also on Monday last very suddenly. She has been a resident of this district for a large number of years, and leaves a large family all in the years of manhood to mourn their loss”.
Cheers, JM
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Thankyou, some very wise advise and food for thought.
Thanks kindly for the information
A :)
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Hi all new to this site very confusing re frederick henry i have a original family tree done in 1956 by mary jane power and cecilia knox granddaughters of fred and cecelia Elizabeth Henry was their mother Fred died in tamworth Elizabeth married john morgan and he buzzed iff somewhere Elizabeth died 1932 buried rookwood cemetry i have photos of her and most if the morgan family mary jane morgan married andrew albert power she is my great grandmother if u can give me any help or i can give u pls pass on info my grandmother is Leila power married sid clarke Andrew power buzzed off too hes buried at bingara cemetry
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Hi,
Frederick is my third great grandfather and I have been looking into his history as well. I have found some things on Ancestry but have not been able to locate his grave. My father remembers stories about him saying he was in the Army as a cover story for him being imprisoned as a convict and that he was an educated man. He also thought he was in the police force but I can't find any record of that. Does anyone know where he might be buried?