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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: michelleh144 on Sunday 31 October 10 23:47 GMT (UK)
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Edward James Douglas Walker, born 4 May 1911 in Glasgow, Scotland, and his brother Samuel Walker born 28 June 1913, Glasgow, Scotland. I have had no luck finding their birth certificates on Scotlands People. Their parents are (we believe) Ellen Wright and John Walker, however no marriage certificate has been found for this also. We are wondering if the boys are illegitimate, but surely there would be proof of their birth somewhere. Both parents were born in Ireland. Ellen went on later to marry a Mr Jackson in Glasgow (found a marriage cert for a Ellen Walker marrying a Thomas Jackson in 1919 on Scotlands people so that could fit, but still need to know about the 2 boys and their dad John.
Please help! I'm stuck.......
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Marriage on SP
1912 WALKER JAMES and WRIGHT ELLEN at KILBIRNIE /AYR
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Yes, I've seen that one before, and at first glance it looks great, except for the fact that it lists Ellen as having different birth parents to the Ellen who married Thomas Jackson. So I do't know which marriage certificate to believe.
Any other ideas gratefully appreciated......
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How different are the names?
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Unfortunately I didn't bring that info in to work with me today, so I'll reply to that tomorrow. If I remember rightly, the names are completely different. However according to the wee notes I have here today, The Jackson marriage cert says her parents are James Wright and Elizabeth (nee Kerr), If I recall rightly the other one says Samuel and Elizabeth McFadzean.
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Does the marriage say she is a widow?
There is a death on SP
1964 WALKER ELLEN Not Permissible other name WRIGHT Female aged 77 PAISLEY /RENFREW
Unfortunately it can't be viewed online unless someone can look it up for you on a visit to Edinburgh
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Yes, she was a widow when she married Mr Jackson.
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Hi
SP has a birth for Samuel Walker in 1913 registered in the Anderston District, Glasgow has quite a few districts in it so you need to use Glasgow City in the County/City/Minor Records section.
Unfortunately it cannot be viewed online
Andy
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You are an angel!
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I've had a look, and unfortunately it's one of the ones that I've already checked out. I've got a copy of this one at home, wrong parents unfortunately.
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Just a wee bit more on my message sent seconds ago. None of the birth certificates on SP (that I have found so far), match either by birth dates or by parents name. Is there anywhere else that a child in Scotland's birth details could be listed? It seems crazy to me that in 1913 that two boys could not have birth certificates. Surely they must exist!
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Hi
Did the boys marry in scotland, if so do you have their marriage certificates to establish parents names?
How sure are you of the place and date of birth? One person we were researching was supposed to have been born in Liverpool, England but he was eventually found born in Scotland and moved to Liverpool when very young
Have you checked under mothers maiden surname? In the case of an unmarried couple a father could only be included on a birth registration if he was present at such registration. Scottish birth certificates at this time included place and date of parents marriage so the question would have been asked, mind you, as many of us have found out, parents often fibbed and invented a marriage.
Andy
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Both boys married in NZ (they moved there (without their parents) as part of a immigration scheme in 1928/29. as the parents were born in Ireland and moved to Scotland, maybe the boys were born there instead of Scotland. Any documentation the boys have in NZ always notes Glasgow as the place of birth, but maybe that's not right.
I'll have a play around with Ireland and see if I have any better luck, thanks for your help so far.
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Hi
Sancti pointed me in the direction of your thread as I was going to the record centre today.
I tried to find the births of the two boys for you, but I couldn't find it. Lots of Edward's and lots of Samuel's, but none with the parents mentioned.
The dealth of Ellen Wright o/w Walker in Paisley in 1964 isn't the same person as married Thomas Jackson in 1919. The person who died in 1964 was the widow of James Walker and had a daughter called Jane B***man (couldn't read it all).
The lady who married in Thomas Jackson on 29/10/1919 was Ellen Walker, a 39 year old widow, who was the daughter of James Wright and Eliza Kerr.
I've taken down the full details of the marriage cert so if it is the right one let me know and I'll send you all the details.
Sorry I couldn't help further.
Julz
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Thank you for that, I really seriously appreciated it. Unfortunately I have already paid for and received copies of all those birth certificates and marriage certificiates and none of them have panned out. (I've kept copies of them all in case something pans out in future). Yesterday I checked out the Irish website RootsIreland.ie to see if the boys were possibly born there instead (Maybe they weren't actually born in Glasgow after all), but nothings panned out there either. I've already checked England in the past and couldn't find anything in that country that matches either. So I'm now getting to a point past my experience, and I don't know what to do. Any help truely appreciated.
The only new detail I can add to this is that according to family John Walker (the boys dad) apparently was a ships captain and went down with his ship. This would have been about the same time as WW1. So maybe he was in the war? No one in our family knows. We don't have any birth dates for him. The only thing I know is that he was (supposdly) born in Ireland. Any help truely appreciated.
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Just to add I looked at birth certs under Wright 4 years +/- the birth years just in case John and Ellen weren't married, but there was nothing with the middle names mentioned (I didn't have time to go into everyone this time, sorry).
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The only new detail I can add to this is that according to family John Walker (the boys dad) apparently was a ships captain and went down with his ship. This would have been about the same time as WW1. So maybe he was in the war?
If so, try the Commonwealth War Graves Commission web site http://www.cwgc.org/
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Hi. I am Chris Walker, daughter of Samuel, grandaughter of John and Ellen, neice of Edward and Andrew. Are you still seeking info? Edward and Samuel emigrated to NZ under a post WW1 scheme for sons of those in merchant navy who lost their lives - as did John and his son Andrew when the SS Normandiet was torpedoed on 21-04-1918. Happy to share what I know.
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Hello michelleh144,
Thanks to the link posted by Forfarian re: Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) and information posted by Chris Walker I found the following. (Very sad reading I'm afraid)
WALKER, JOHN. Bosn (Boatswain) and Lamps. SS "Normandiet" (London)
As a result of an attack by an enemy submarine. 21st April, 1918. Age 44.
Son of the late Andrew Graham Walker and Jane Walker; husband of Ellen Walker (nee Wright),
of 9 Lumsden St., Glasgow. Born at Belfast.
Also, on the same page:
WALKER, ANDREW. Slr (Sailor) SS "Normandiet" (London)
As a result of an attack by an enemy submarine. 21st April, 1918. Age 18.
Son of Ellen Walker (nee Wright) of 9 Lumsden St., Glasgow, and the late John Walker.
Born at Islandmagee, Co. Antrim.
Very faintly, under John Walker's listing in the Register is written what looks like:
Now commemorated at Cobh old Church Cemetery, Co. Cork, Ireland.
(There is a Cobh Old Church Graveyard in Cork)
Both names are included on the Tower Hill Memorial in London.
End of the month and had a few spare credits on Scotlandspeople (unusual) so, now knowing John's age, had a look for the family on 1911 Scotland Census. Luckily, only one match for a John Walker, age 36-38 with second person Ellen living in Glasgow City came up. I think it's the same family. I can't post details on RootsChat (Copyright) but I could Private Message them to you.
Hope this is your family.
Regards, Dod.
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Glad I could be of help.
Dad (Samuel) served for the NZ Forces as a Gunner (Number 1972). He died in January 1970 of cancer. We are not sure what happened to Ted (Edward) - claims are he married a NZ Maori lady and moved 'up north'.
Meanwhile Sam married 3 times - Vivienne (2 daughters produced - Marion Ellen and Jennifer), Maureen (my mum - son John, me, twins Anne and Andrew), Elizabeth (no children). Sam was a bit of a lad and also produced a daughter by my mothers sister (Thelma) before John was conceived.
Dad visited his Mum (Ellen, by then Jackson) during the war and Ellen wrote to the NZ Defence Forces after the visit hoping to get some sort of pension / funding.
From a copy of the letter she wrote re the above, Ellen also claims to have had a daughter who 'signed up and went to Manchester'. Ellen lived at 13 Watt Street, Greenock at the time she wrote.
I have been over to Scotland to try and trace rellies (no luck) and to see the known places Dad was. Any contact from relatives would be most welcome.
Cheers,
Chris Walker
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Hi all,
My name is Iain Hodgen.
I am trying to trace my mums family (Violet Jackson), all iv'e got to go on is my Brother and sister were born at 13 Watt St Greenock (1945/47).
I do know her brother emigrated to NZ and married a Maori , don't know his name.
She did have sisters called Mary and Renee.
I was looking at you post and there are similarities,
Cheers,
Iain
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Do you have a copy of the marriage certificate which will give her parents names
1940 HODGEN GEORGE and JACKSON VIOLET at GREENOCK WEST RENFREW
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Hi Iain,
The brother who 'went to New Zealand and married a Maori' would be my Dad's (Samuel Walker) brother Edward (known as Ted). Both boys came to New Zealand under the NZ Sheepowners Acknowledgement of Debt to British Seamen Scheme (known as the 'Flockhouse Scheme) - open to sons (and later daughters) of those in the Merchant Navy who lost their lives in WW1, as the merchant navy looked after the wool interest of NZ's farmers during the war. Am keen to know more - I don't know much about any of Dad's family except names of his Mum, Dad and brothers (Andrew, killed with his father and Ted's name). I have brothers John and Andrew - strong family names I gather. Love to hear from you.
Cheers
Chris
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Hi Chris,
I think we on the same person here, My mother Violet Jackson married my dad George Hodgen who was from Prestwich Manchester. I have a vague recollection of my Grandmother and do have photographs of her.
As a coincidence my sister was call Vivienne and was born at 13 Watt St and the name Ellen definitely rings a bell.
I do have contacts with the family up there, but its been a while.
Mums sister Mary lived and died in Inverkeithing and the rest of her family live in Dunfermline.
I have ordered the marriage cert and have copies of my brother and sisters birth certificates.
They married on the 19/12/1940,
Cheers,
Iain
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Hi Chris,
Another thing I remember is that mum also had a brother (cant remember the name) who was in a Japanese prisoner of was camp and died from complications this used to upset her greatly on remembrance day.
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Edward James Douglas Walker, born 4 May 1911 in Glasgow, Scotland, and his brother Samuel Walker born 28 June 1913, Glasgow, Scotland. I have had no luck finding their birth certificates on Scotlands People. Their parents are (we believe) Ellen Wright and John Walker, however no marriage certificate has been found for this also. We are wondering if the boys are illegitimate, but surely there would be proof of their birth somewhere. Both parents were born in Ireland. Ellen went on later to marry a Mr Jackson in Glasgow (found a marriage cert for a Ellen Walker marrying a Thomas Jackson in 1919 on Scotlands people so that could fit, but still need to know about the 2 boys and their dad John.
Please help! I'm stuck.......
Hi,
I think you are talking about my uncle (Edward), my mother Violet Hodgen nee Jackson was his sister and used to talk about him a lot. I only have an approximate DOB for her sometime in 1921, I can find no record of her anywhere as seems to be a problem with the part of the family. My brother and sister were born at 13 Watts St 1945/1947.
Any info on trying to trace Edwards family would be great,
cheers,
Iain
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Could this be the marriage
1912 WALKER JAMES and WRIGHT ELLEN at KILBIRNIE AYR
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Wow, here we are talking about my Dad (Samuel Walker) and his brother Edward (born 1911) who both emigrated to NZ - Samuel in 1928 on the SS Rotorua and Edward a year or so earlier. Dad was only 15 at the time. They trained as farm cadets. Both served in the NZ army in WW2, Dad was Gunner 1972 and was shot twice (survived both). During the war Ellen (Dad's mother who had remarried - Thomas Jackson) was living in Watt St as she wrote to the NZ Army seeking funds. Dad visited her during the war.
So, I now know there was Dad and Edward (came to NZ), Andrew (killed when SS Normandiet was torpedoed on April 28, 1918, aged 18) and their father John (also on SS Normandiet - as bosun) and mother Ellen (nee Wright, a hosier). There was mention of a sister in Ellen's letter, so perhaps these 4 children were all to Ellen's 1st marriage (to John) and Violet, and possibly others (Renee?) were to Thomas Jackson, her 2nd marriage.
Dad had 7 children over 3 relationships / marriages; Julie, Marion Ellen, Jennifer, John, Christine, Anne, Andrew.
My e-mail is * I would love to know more! Please!!!
* Moderator comment: personal e-mail address removed in accordance with RootsChat general guidance, to prevent it from being abused or spammed. Please use the personal message system to exchange e-mail addresses. Thanks
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I think you are probably right about the children and which marriage they came from, my mum's had at least two sisters, Mary was significantly older than my mum at least 15 years, Renee was of a similar age, actually met up with her 6 month before she died, remembered when she lived from when I was about 13, went to her funeral in Dunfermline. Mary's husband was called Sidney, can't remember his surname and he worked at Rosyth dockyards, he was from the south of England. This could possibly make us first cousins - mental, I'll email you some photographs
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Well, hello 1st cousin! So, Mary would have possibly been the Walker daughter that Ellen mentioned in her letter. Violet and Renee probably from (2nd) marriage - to T Jackson.
Thanks - would love to see photos. I have a photo of Dad and some of us kids, so will send those to you.
So there is you and a sister Vivienne born to Violet (nee Jackson) and George (Hogden). Did you say you have a brother too?
The NZ Army may hold records of Edward's service during WW2. I have Dad's, along with his war service medals.
I look forward to getting to know you and our family better. Cheers for now.
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I am the youngest (54), Vivienne was born in 1947 now deceased and Douglas born in 1945 and still going strong at 70.
There was their first born child that died during the birth before we were all born.
Doug's children from his first marriage live in Proserpine in Australia having emigrated 10 years ago.
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Thanks for that. On our side:
Marion Ellen -born 1947 ish
Jennifer Jean -born 1949 -52 ish
Julie Gail -born 1952-3
John Michael -born 1954
Christine Robyn -born 1957 (that's me!)
Twins Anne Evelyn and Andrew Edward (nicknamed Sindy and Sandy) -born 1959
Dad (Samuel) died January 1970 from cancer of the throat. He and Mum were divorced at the time and Sam had remarried (Esther Card). His first wife was Vivienne Grindell and Marion and Jennifer are from that marriage. Marion has 4 kids and Jennifer had twins. While still married to Vivienne, Sam had a relationship and Julie was the result - born to him and Thelma (nee Anderton, sister to my own mother). Thelma raised Julie, Sam hooked up with Mum, she got pregnant with John, he divorced Viv and married Mum. The marriage ended in 1960. All rather dramatic.
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Blimey it's sounds it! So pleased to have found you, been looking for years, it's was viv and dougs Birth certs and that address at 13 Watt St that finally did it, lots of gaps to fill in! I'm on Facebook as are most of the family.
It's 00:37 and up at 5.50 so better bugger off, Iain
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Hi there. I haven't checked into this page in a very long time.
I am the daughter of Samuel Walker, who came to NZ under a scheme set up by NZ farmers for the sons and daughters of the British Merchant Navy men who lost their lives in WW1. Dad lost his father John and his brother Andrew when the ship SS Normandiet was torpedoed. John was the bosun, Andrew a sailor. Dad's brother Edward also came out under this scheme before Dad did in 1928. When their mother Ellen was widowed, she later married Thomas Jackson and lived at 13 Watt Street, Greenock. Andrew was born in Islandmagee, Antrim, Ireland. There was also a sister (Mary or Jean) born as Walker. Perhaps the Walker children were all born in Ireland - I haven't been able to find the birth records yet. Ellen had 2 daughters to Jackson - Renee and Violet. Sam had 3 marriages and 6 children. I am from his 2nd marriage (along with brothers Andrew Edward and John Michael David, and sister Anne Evelyn) and Marion Ellen and Jennifer Jean were to his 1st wife Vivienne. Please feel free to email me. Would love to share info. Christine Walker
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Haven't read through all 4 pages of this thread yet so not sure if this has been posted yet but there is a birth for Eileen Jane Walker. parents John Walker & Ellen Wright, in 1910 at Mullahgboy townland, Islandmagee-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1910/01586/1638194.pdf
Also a son John in 1905 at same place with same parents-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1905/01799/1705514.pdf
I can't see any birth for an Andrew Walker in Larne registration district from 1864-1921
Please remember that we aren't allowed to post details of living people. You can remove such details from your post for 24 hours but after that you'll need to use "report to moderator" to do so.
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Marriage of Ellen Wright and John Walker Graham in 1898 at 2nd Islandmagee Presbyterian Church-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1898/10415/5792332.pdf
John Walker, wife Ellen and daughter Mary Elizabeth-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Islandmagee/Gransha/990081/
Mary Elizabeth Walker Graham born 1899 Mullaghboy, Islandmagee-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1899/02055/1786207.pdf
Andrew Graham born 1902 Gransha, Islandmagee
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1902/01926/1745950.pdf
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Birth of John Walker Graham in 1873 in Belfast, parents- Andrew Graham & Jane Walker-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1873/03213/2178338.pdf
Added-
Earlier son named John born 1871
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1871/03288/2205048.pdf
Daughter Matilda Graham born 1869
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1869/03376/2237613.pdf
Andrew Graham & Jane Walker married Feb.1869 Belfast-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1869/11407/8188927.pdf
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Chris, glad the details posted were of interest and following on from the clues with John using both Walker and Graham as surname I was able to find birth registrations on Scotland's People for Edward John Douglas Walker & Samuel Walker- both registered under Graham but with Walker in their names-
GRAHAM EDWARD J D W M 1911 644/11 558 Anderston
GRAHAM SAMUEL WALKER M 1913 644/11 758 Anderston
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Hello to anyone still following this thread.
I now have more info:
John (Graham) Walker (born 1873 at Belfast) and Ellen (nee Wright, born 3 October 1880) married on April 6, 1898, at Islandmagee, Antrim, Ireland. Their daughter Mary was born 27 January 1899, followed by Andrew (born 19 February 1902 at Islandmagee, family listed as Graham);
John (born 19 February 1905 at Mullaghboy, Islandmagee, family listed as Graham, died aged 3 years on 20/2/1908 of bronchitis, address listed as 10 Killwood St., Belfast);
Eileen born (24 January 1910 at Mullaghboy, Islandmagee, family listed as Walker, birth witnessed by Mary Walker, died of bronchitis on 16/3/1910, aged 7 weeks, death witnessed by Mary Walker);
Daniel (born 1910 at Glasgow - listed on Scottish 1911 census as aged 1, son of John Walker and Ellen Walker); Edward (born 4 May 1911 at Glasgow); Samuel (born 28 June 1913 at Glasgow).
Edward and Samuel were registered with the surname Graham on the Anderston (Glasgow) Registry:
GRAHAM Edward John Douglas Walker 1911
GRAHAM Samuel Walker 1913
However, it seems the use of the Graham name disappeared.
Edward (Ted) married Arapera Ngauarehurehu. He adopted Arapera’s 15 month old daughter, Anita Takurangi Hapi and had no children of his own. He died 31 July 1987 at Whangarei.
After being widowed by the torpedoing of John's merchant navy ship SS Normandiet, Ellen married Mr Thomas Jackson and Violet and Renee appear to have come from that union.
Sincere thanks to this forum - I am now in touch with descendants of the Jacksons.