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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northamptonshire => Topic started by: PalmTree1 on Saturday 06 November 10 18:16 GMT (UK)
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Hello from a newbie to this forum.
I hope I have posted this in the right place because it is a mixture of Northamptonshire and military… If it would be better elsewhere please feel free to move it.
I would already like to thank contributors to previous discussions on the Northants Regiment that have helped me fill in many gaps already.
I am researching the life of my grandfather Samuel William David Palmer who was born at Pilton on 2nd Nov 1867.
At some point between 1881 and 1891 he became Sergeant William Palmer #1669 of the 1st Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment.
Q. When and how? I assume he must have joined as a private?
In the 1891 census he is shown as Sgt William Palmer age 23 born at Oundle in Barracks at Aldershot with the 1st Northamptonshire Regiment.
Q. Would this be Salamanca Barracks, Wellington Lines, Aldershot where I assume he arrive probably on 28th (or 29th?) Nov 1890?
He married Louisa Norris at the Parish Church, Farnham, Surrey on 3rd Sep 1892.
Q. Would I be right to assume that he and Louisa sailed with the 1st Battalion aboard HMS Malabar from Portsmouth on 4th (or 5th?) Oct 1892 routing via Malta, Port Said and Suez before reaching Bombay on 1st Nov 1892 and that the battalion then moved inland to their new base at Bangalore arriving there on 19th Nov 1892.
Daughter Florence Isabella was born at Bangalore on 21st Jan 1893.
Q. They probably arrived at Secunderabad on 11th Dec 1895. I understand the barracks were actually at Trimulgherry (today written Tirumala Giri) just to the northeast of Secunderabad?
Daughter Ivy Miriam born at Trimulgherry (today written Tirumala Giri), Secunderabad in 1896.
He took part in the Tirah Campaign from 9th Sep 1897 until 31st Dec 1897 and so was entitled to the India General Service Medal 1895 with Punjab Frontier 1897-8, Samana 1897, and Tirah 1897-8 clasps. I have the London Gazette reports on this action but can see no mention of him.
Q. When and how did he and the family return from India to the UK?
In the 1901 census he is shown as Sgt Samuel W Palmer born at Oundle age 33 in Barracks in the Parish of Saint Sepulchre, Northampton with the Northamptonshire Regiment along with Louisa, Florence and Ivy.
Q. I assume that he then went to South Africa, presumably with the 2nd Battalion, as he was entitled to the Queen's South Africa Medal 1902 with Cape Colony clasp for troops who served in the Cape Colony between 11 Oct 1899 and 31 May 1902. When and how did he go to and from South Africa?
He became a Colour Sergeant (when?) and was entitled to the Long Service and Good Conduct Medal.
Son (my Father) William Sidney was born at Northampton on 18th Aug 1904.
Daughter Gladys May was born at Northampton on 9th Dec 1906.
Q. My father and Aunt Gladys were born at the Barracks but was there more than one at Northampton as I have found Quebec Barracks at Wootton but Dad always talked about Weedon Barracks?
In the1911 census the entire family is shown at Daventry.
Q. Does this mean that he has retired from the Army? Dad thought he did some recruiting and maybe training during WWI. Any ideas?
Thank you for taking the time to read all of this. Oh and my avatar is a sketch of this gentleman.
Regards,
Paul
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Hi Paul.
Welcome to Rootschat. :)
Although I can not help with the early history of Samuel there
are a couple of Rootschatters who are excellent on the
Northamptonshire Regiment.
There was a place called Weedon Barracks in Northamptonshire
it is near Daventry although no longer used for Military.
Sandy
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Hi Sandy,
Thanks for your post and your info on the Barracks.
I think I have found the answer to "which barracks" and it is neither Wootton nor Weedon but Northampton itself. Dad's birth certificate simply states "Barracks Northampton" but the birth is registered in the Northampton sub-district of St Giles.
Weedon came under Daventry and Wootton under Hardingstone ???
After some Googling I have discovered Gibraltar Barracks at Northampton and not far from the church of St Giles so I think I have my answer to that little piece of my jigsaw puzzle. :)
I've added a photo of my Grandfather taken in India in about 1898.
Looking forward to further posts...
Regards,
Paul
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He enlisted on 20th May 1886. He retired in 1907 having served the maximum* 21 years.
(* The maximum was exceeded in some exceptional cases)
He has several sets of records which I will attempt to untangle and update here later.
That is a corker of a moustache, by the way!
Steve.
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Hi Steve,
From reading other threads I thought you might be the man with all(?) the answers. ;)
Can I be curious and ask where you find this kind of information as apart from your posts here I have been able to find little more than I already knew from his medals and family stories?
Yes it is an impressive moustache but my father told me that at one time it was so long that he could tie it behind his head :o Sounds like a family legend to me though... Sadly I cannot remember him, he died when I was 15 months old.
Much appreciate your efforts to answer my questions.
Best regards,
Paul
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In answer to your questions:
At some point between 1881 and 1891 he became Sergeant William Palmer #1669 of the 1st Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment.
Q. When and how? I assume he must have joined as a private?
He was promoted to Sergeant whilst serving with the 1st Northamptons at Warley on 26th November 1890
In the 1891 census he is shown as Sgt William Palmer age 23 born at Oundle in Barracks at Aldershot with the 1st Northamptonshire Regiment.
Q. Would this be Salamanca Barracks, Wellington Lines, Aldershot where I assume he arrive probably on 28th (or 29th?) Nov 1890?
These were the "Centre Infantry Barracks" at Aldershot according to the Regimental History, page 224. The date of arrival was the 28th November 1890.
He married Louisa Norris at the Parish Church, Farnham, Surrey on 3rd Sep 1892.
Q. Would I be right to assume that he and Louisa sailed with the 1st Battalion aboard HMS Malabar from Portsmouth on 4th (or 5th?) Oct 1892 routing via Malta, Port Said and Suez before reaching Bombay on 1st Nov 1892 and that the battalion then moved inland to their new base at Bangalore arriving there on 19th Nov 1892.
Yes. It is likely, but not certain that William's wife went with him straight away.
Daughter Florence Isabella was born at Bangalore on 21st Jan 1893.
Q. They probably arrived at Secunderabad on 11th Dec 1895. I understand the barracks were actually at Trimulgherry (today written Tirumala Giri) just to the northeast of Secunderabad?
You've got me on that one!
Daughter Ivy Miriam born at Trimulgherry (today written Tirumala Giri), Secunderabad in 1896.
He took part in the Tirah Campaign from 9th Sep 1897 until 31st Dec 1897 and so was entitled to the India General Service Medal 1895 with Punjab Frontier 1897-8, Samana 1897, and Tirah 1897-8 clasps. I have the London Gazette reports on this action but can see no mention of him.
The London Gazette only mentions those who were awarded gallantry medals or mentions in despatches. There may be a list of the casualties as well, that also appeared daily in the Times. William Palmer is not listed in the casualty roll for the campaign. He was however injured on two occasions during peacetime in India. The Rolls for the Tirah Campaign are now on Ancestry.
Q. When and how did he and the family return from India to the UK?
On 19th October 1900, the method of conveyance was usually a troopship during the "trooping season" (rather than a commercial passenger ship).
In the 1901 census he is shown as Sgt Samuel W Palmer born at Oundle age 33 in Barracks in the Parish of Saint Sepulchre, Northampton with the Northamptonshire Regiment along with Louisa, Florence and Ivy.
Q. I assume that he then went to South Africa, presumably with the 2nd Battalion, as he was entitled to the Queen's South Africa Medal 1902 with Cape Colony clasp for troops who served in the Cape Colony between 11 Oct 1899 and 31 May 1902. When and how did he go to and from South Africa?
William Palmer actually served with the 3rd (Militia) Battalion in South Africa. They embarked aboard the S.S. Harlech Castle and S.S. Manilla on 8th and 9th April 1902 and arrived in South Africa at Cape Town on 1st May 1902. They were given responsibility for guarding the road from Victoria Road to Carnarvon garrisoning a series of blockhouses along 82 miles of road. The 3erd Battalion returned to England on the S.S. Scot on 3rd September 1902, arriving back in England on 19th October 1902.
He became a Colour Sergeant (when?) and was entitled to the Long Service and Good Conduct Medal.
He seems to have been a Colour Sergeant during the Great War period.
Son (my Father) William Sidney was born at Northampton on 18th Aug 1904.
Daughter Gladys May was born at Northampton on 9th Dec 1906.
Q. My father and Aunt Gladys were born at the Barracks but was there more than one at Northampton as I have found Quebec Barracks at Wootton but Dad always talked about Weedon Barracks?
In the 1911 census the entire family is shown at Daventry.
Is their an address for them?
Q. Does this mean that he has retired from the Army? Dad thought he did some recruiting and maybe training during WWI. Any ideas?
He retired from the Army in May 1907, but there is a fragment of his WW1 service record showing that he enlisted on 8th October 1914 and was transferred to Class Z Reserve on 27th March 1919. He suffered from rheumatism in his shoulder and elbow which was treated in Northampton during 1920. There is a Regimental number - 61656 - but that is of 1919 vintage. He would have had another number in 1914, possibly a 3/10000-ish number. I shall dig a bit further.
Thank you for taking the time to read all of this. Oh and my avatar is a sketch of this gentleman.
I thought that was him! It's very good, even at that size. Can we see a larger version, please?
Steve.
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Sergeant William Palmer appears in three pictures of the 1st Battalion taken at Secunderabad in late 1896 - in the line up of the Sergeants and also in the NCOs of "D" Company group and a whole company shot of "D" Company.
Young Florence (age 5 and a half) appears in the School picture looking somewhat unimpressed!
This is an outline of William's (first) career in the Northamptonshire Regiment:
Enlisted at Northampton on 18th May 1886
Age 18 years and 6 months
A labourer prior to enlisting
Joined the Northamptonshire Regiment at Northampton on 20th May 1886
Terms of enlistment: 7 years active service & 5 years on reserve = 12 years
Training at Northampton Depot (Barracks) from May to November 1886
Joined 1st Battalion at Aldershot on 20th November 1886
Appointed as Provisional (unpaid) Lance-Corporal on 18th February 1888
Moved with the 1st Battalion to Warley on 15th March 1888
Granted 1st Good Conduct Badge (chevron on arm) and pay after 2 years service on 18th May 1888
Sent to the Tower of London on 1st June 1888 (as a Guard whilst the Yeoman Warders were training)
Returned to Warley on 25th July 1888
Appointed as Lance-Corporal on 18th January 1889
Sent back to the Tower of London 27th April 1889
Promoted to Corporal on 29th May 1889
Gained 3rd Class Education Certificate on 24th June 1889
Returned to Warley on 25th July 1889
Extended his service to 12 years active service and none on Reserve on 14th November 1889
Hospital from 1st January 1890 to 17th February 1890
Gained 2nd Class Education Certificate on 18th March 1890
Hospital from 19th March 1890 to 1st May 1890
To London (the Tower again) on 1st May 1890
Returned to Warley on 2nd September 1890
Promoted to Sergeant on 26th November 1890
Moved to Aldershot with the 1st Battalion on 28th November 1890
In hospital from 12th April 1892 to 29th April 1892 with a gashed hand caused by a bottle bursting
Married to Louisa Norris on 3rd September 1892
To India aboard H.M.S. Malabar on 4th October 1892
HMS Malabar drops off and picks up troops from other Regiments at Gibraltar on 9th October 1892
HMS Malabar sails from Malta to Bombay on 15th October 1892
HMS Malabar leaves Port Said on 19th October 1892
HMS Malabar reaches Suez on 21st October 1892
1st Battalion landed in India at Bombay on 1st November 1892
Arrived at Bangalore with 1st Battalion on 19th November 1892
Florence Isabella born at Bangalore on 21st January 1893 (Christened 15th February 1893)
Arrived at Secunderabad with 1st battalion on 11th December 1895
Ivy Miriam born at Secunderabad on 9th September 1896 (Christened 7th October 1896)
Allowed to extend his service to 21 years on 20th April 1897 whilst at Secunderabad
A Sergeant in “D” Company in the photograph taken at Secunderabad in late 1896
The Tirah Expedition from 9th September to 31st December 1897
The incident at Saran Sar on 9th November 1897
Arrived in Peshawar after the Tirah Campaign on 25th December 1897
Awarded the India General Service Medal with three clasps – Samana 1897, Tirah Campaign 1897-98 and Punjab Frontier 1898
Arrived at …………… on 19th June 1898
Hospital at Mahahad from 20th September 1899 to 23rd December 1899 – operation for the removal of foreign bodies
Arrived back in England on 19th October 1900
Posted to the Northamptonshire Regiment Depot on 20th October 1900
Transferred to 3rd (Militia) Battanion on 8th March 1901 (EDITED)
To South Africa with 3rd (Militia) Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment on 8th April 1902
Awarded the Queen’s South Africa Medal and two clasps – Cape Colony and South Africa 1902
Arrived back in England on 20th September 1902
Promoted to Colour Sergeant on 19th April 1904 (EDITED)
William Sidney born at Northampton on 18th August 1904
Gladys May born at Northampton on 9th December 1906 (Christened 20th January 1907)
Discharged on Termination of Terms of enlistment after 21 years service on 17th May 1907
Also passed Musketry course at Hythe
Next of kin: Bartholomew Palmer, Pilton, Northamptonshire
Sources:
WO364:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1114&iid=miuk1914a_086021-01506&fn=William&ln=Palmer&st=r&ssrc=&pid=790257
(Images 17411 to 17418 of 21188)
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1114&iid=miuk1914a_119896-00585&fn=William&ln=Palmer&st=r&ssrc=&pid=970272
(Images 21066 to 21070 of 21188)
History of the Northamptonshire Regiment 1742-1934, by Lt. Col. Russell Gurney
WO100 Medal Rolls:
India General Service Medal 1895 - Tirah campaign:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1686&iid=31794_221437-00444&fn=W&ln=Palmer&st=r&ssrc=&pid=2477244
Queens South Africa Medal - 2nd Boer War:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1686&iid=31794_221478-00816&fn=W&ln=Palmer&st=r&ssrc=&pid=361396
Steve.
(Edited to correct omission of promotion to Colour Sergeant).
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The main Regular army barracks (Gibraltar Barracks) was in the fork between St Georges Street and Barracks Road (shock!) and is now gone. The Militia Barracks (now the T.A. Barracks) is still on Clare Street at its western end.
As you say, it is likely to be Gibraltar Barracks.
Looking at a 1900 map, the Barracks School building still stands and is now Northampton Chiropractic Clinic on Barracks Road (You can see it on Google maps and Google Streetview)
Steve.
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Hi Steve,
What can I say ??? Amazing amount of details, more than I had hoped for, thank you so much.
From the Aldershot Museum website, Salamanca Barracks is another name for the Central Infantry Barracks, so it seems we are both right on that one ;)
Q. I understand the barracks were actually at Trimulgherry (today written Tirumala Giri) just to the northeast of Secunderabad?
You've got me on that one!
On the Northampton Museum Flickr pages is a postcard labelled "The First Battalion, Northamptonshire Regiment, on parade at Trimulgherry, India" and Ivy Miriam is shown as being born there (British Army Returns Page 331) so I think it is a reasonable assumption.
Interesting that you say he was entitled to the South Africa 1902 clasp to his Queen's South Africa medal as it certainly is not with the medal, only the Cape Colony clasp...
My father's birth certificate shows his father as a Colour Sergeant with the Northamptonshire Regiment so he must have been promoted by August 1904. Do you happen to have Dad's baptism date?
I don't have full access to the 1911 Census to see the address but I would be very surprised if the family were not already living at 1 Ashworth Street in Daventry.
I am at work tonight so will posted the sketch tomorrow or Saturday, once I have reduced its size to something acceptable. His great grandaughter (who is a bit older than me and I'm only his grandson!) has the original. I'll also post the full picture of grandad which includes his wife and the two girls born in India plus two Indian servants (unless that is politically unacceptable these days!)
Once again a very big thank you.
Best regards,
Paul
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My error! Missed a bit:
Transferred to 3rd Battalion, 8th March 1901
Promoted to Colour Sergeant, 19th April 1904
(I have edited my summary above)
William's baptism date is the only one that isn't shown. Typical! :(
Steve.
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Hi Paul.
Good to see all the information that has been noted by Steve.
I did not know that Gibraltor barracks had completely dis-appeared.
I thought it now belonged to the Borough Council for the homeless.
The building I mean is between St George's School and the disussed
Royal Mail building on the Barrack Road.
I am sure I will be rightly corrected if wrong.
Sandy
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Sandy,
As you know I'm not from Northampton, and my local knowledge isn't as up to scratch as it might be! I think part of the old barracks has gone (under the Royal Mail offices?) and part remains - the School, the ATC building and the homeless centre are probably part of the old compound?
But it is not something I have particularly looked into, so I am happy to be corrected.
Steve.
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Hi Steve,
Thanks for the additional bits of information.
Here is the sketch of Sgt Palmer and the full family portrait from India with William, Louisa, Florence, Ivy and the servants.
For anyone interested, there is a photo of his sister on Alan Clarke's website here http://www.northants1841.fsnet.co.uk/sharpe.html and scroll down.
Once again a big thank you. I hope your eyes are ok after peering at those pages on Ancestry, even knowing what I am looking at I have a hard time reading them.
Best regards,
Paul
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Brilliant photographs.
Steve I was not correcting you.
I pop on after a few days away and say something to annoy.
It was not my intention.
I did not know replies had been made so have just asked Scrimnet.
I guess I will leave the experts to answer in future.
Sandy
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Hi Sandy/Steve
I grew up in Wellingborough and thought I knew Northampton fairly well but I never knew Gibraltar Barracks existed! Dad always pointed out Weedon Barracks when we past through on our way to Daventry (visiting Dad's younger sister Gladys and her family at 1 Ashworth Street!) so I supposed that that was the barracks where he was born, etc. The custodian of the sketch lives in Northampton so I will try to pick her brains.
Regards,
Paul
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Sandy,
I am happy to be corrected where I don't know, and in this case I don't!
Scrimnet may well be able to put us both right! ;D
Paul,
Thanks for posting the picture of William in India, and the sketch. It really is very good!
Do you have copies of the other pictures with him on from Secunderabad?
On having a better look at the pictures from the Secunderabad book, there are pictures of:
"The Barracks at Trimulgherry" and "Sergeants Mess at Trimulgherry", so that confirms your thoughts about the location of the barracks in India!
Steve.
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Sandy,
As you know I'm not from Northampton, and my local knowledge isn't as up to scratch as it might be! I think part of the old barracks has gone (under the Royal Mail offices?) and part remains - the School, the ATC building and the homeless centre are probably part of the old compound?
But it is not something I have particularly looked into, so I am happy to be corrected.
Steve.
You are both correct, and dont forget Quebec (Simpson) Bks at Hardingstone ;)
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Steve,
I have no idea who the artist was for the sketch nor when and where it was drawn but I like it too.
I only have a very poor copy of a head shot of him at Secunderabad probably scanned and cropped from one of the photos you refer to.
After all this help I'll just pop over to Sandy's thread on Northamptonshire men/women that served in WWI/II as I have a couple of pictures that fill the bill.
Best regards,
Paul
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I'll try and sort some pictures tomorrow. Do you want to PM (Personal Message) your e-mail address to me?
Steve.
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PM sent
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Hi again Paul.
Thanks for photographs on the other thread.
As I go pass the building in question on the way home (further
away) I thought I couldn't remember it not being not there still.
That's why I asked Scrimnet to confirm as we are both Northamptonians
although neither of us still live in the town.
Also if you would like me to send you one of my remembrance cards
please send me a P.M.
Sandy
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Hello Scrimnet,
Just to say thank you for your interest and also for your detailed account of the Tirah campaign in another thread that I came across last night. Real helps put into perspective the dangers that they went through.
Regards,
Paul
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Paul,
Just to clear things up a bit, the Quebec barracks at Wooton did not start to be built until 1938, and was not fully finished until the end of WW2 when it really started its association with the Regiment. It became a Pioneer Corps barracks in the 1960s being renamed as Simpson Barracks.
Thus, it does not seem to have been involved in William Palmer's history with the Northamptons.
Steve.
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Steve,
Thanks for the info on Quebec Barracks. I was led astray by my father's frequent references to Weedon Barracks and by the fact that my initial Googling for barracks in and around Northampton never turned up Gibraltar Barracks! Strange...
Paul
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Paul,
Just to clear things up a bit, the Quebec barracks at Wooton did not start to be built until 1938, and was not fully finished until the end of WW2 when it really started its association with the Regiment. It became a Pioneer Corps barracks in the 1960s being renamed as Simpson Barracks.
Thus, it does not seem to have been involved in William Palmer's history with the Northamptons.
Steve.
I know, it was just to remind readers that there was aoothetr bks in Northampton
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Paul,
Just to clear things up a bit, the Quebec barracks at Wooton did not start to be built until 1938, and was not fully finished until the end of WW2 when it really started its association with the Regiment. It became a Pioneer Corps barracks in the 1960s being renamed as Simpson Barracks.
Steve
I'm reading through all your postings as suggested and will be in contact later about WWI and Daventry Memorial project ! But thought you may like to be aware that houses were built on simpson bks site and some MQs were updated - The HQ is now flats. It was in Pioneer Close that the tragedy occured last month of a chinese family (parents & 2 daughters) being wiped out by one chinaman from Coventry who is currently UK's most wanted.
Phil
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Sandy,
As you know I'm not from Northampton, and my local knowledge isn't as up to scratch as it might be! I think part of the old barracks has gone (under the Royal Mail offices?) and part remains - the School, the ATC building and the homeless centre are probably part of the old compound?
But it is not something I have particularly looked into, so I am happy to be corrected.
Steve.
I know bit off-topic but just to follow-up: I am local (but mostly housebound). You are correct Steve, however, the Royal Mail have moved out some while back into swanky new building near M1 J15A Rothersthorpe, and after laying empty barracks will now become another Tescos!
These original barracks (on Barrack Rd A508) were built just outside town northern boundary which ran down Grafton St to river and across The Mounts down to Derngate (A428 to Bedford).
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Couldn't help but join in on this conversation. .. must say that reading this post whilst I was go ogling the history of Gibraltar Barracks in Northampton made me join the site.
Has I write this post I'm sitting in Gibraltar barracks.... it is still pretty much here, the outer building which was once a jail is now housing but the main building is still on use. It's now the home of 'A' Company LNR Army Cadet Force.
Just thought I would let you know.. if you want to know anything else just ask.
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Hi ceejay1304,
Thanks for your interest. I'm surprised to hear that part of Gibraltar Barracks still exists. Dad, sadly long gone, was born there back in 1904!
Regards,
Paul