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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Wiltshire => Topic started by: bgor on Thursday 11 November 10 02:41 GMT (UK)
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I've recently come across the interesting christening/marriage entry of "Sims or Shipman" for family entries at All Cannings. Sometimes the names are together, sometimes one or the other, and it seems to happen across 17th, 18th and 19th century entries. Could anyone tell me if this is peculiar to just one family and/or what it means?
In particular I am looking at Thomas Sims or Shipman, christened in 1823 and married in 1844, and his father William Sims or Shipman, married 1821.
Many Thanks
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I came to the conclusion this had something to do with copyhold leases 'on lives' held of the Manor of All Cannings. As and when the leases went into reversion, i.e. reverted back to the Lord of the Manor [upon death of the last 'life' or surrender], the need to record the alias no longer existed and the practice fizzled out in the 1850s.
So far as I can tell, the problem appears to have emerged after Joshua SHIPMAN [recorded Josiah in BTs] married Sarah COWARD in 1793. I think it is him holding an All Cannings lease on his own life in 1817 in the Manor sale particulars recorded J. SHIPMAN otherwise SIMS aged 50, which lease subsequently passed to Charles HITCHCOCK whilst Joshua SHIPMAN alias SIMS aged 67 was recorded as the sole remaining life in 1834, after sale of the Manor to Lord Ashburton. The lease was dated 23 March 1784, which pre-dated his marriage to Sarah, and if she survived him she would have been entitled to hold onto the property for the duration of her widowhood. I have a bunch of baptisms for the issue of 'Josiah' & Sarah but the alias does not appear for them until Job & Stephen in 1812 & 1816 respectively, when parentage recorded Joseph/Sarah. I should mention here that the All Cannings registers are a mess, with loads of errors - some ignoring spellings of names in well-executed signatures.
The next generation using SHIPMAN alias SIMS and vice versa appear to have surfaced for marriage in All Cannings from Etchilhampton, but I've not encountered a link between Daniel/Jane & family of Etchilhampton and Joshua. 'Joseph Joshua' SHIPMAN's death was recorded 2Q 1844; with burial as Joseph aged 79 at All Cannings on 7 May. Sadly, this is another occasion when the 'lost' 1841 Census returns might have been useful. There may of course be documents in the WRO archives that throw a different perspective on the subject.
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Thank you for clearing that up for me. In fact I have Joshua and Sarah down as parents for William. His son Thomas, my great *3 grandfather emigrated to South Australia after his marriage to Jemima Grant and the birth of their first son James. I have Stephen, Charles, Job, John and Mary Ann as Thomas' siblings, but may be wrong. I wasn't sure if Joshua was the right father for William or not. Your explanation certainly clears up why the alias disappears and reappears.
I'm currently trying to work out which Grant family Jemima, his wife, came from as her father was John and there are two of them. I think she is the daughter of John and Elizabeth, siblings Eleanor, Martha, Dinah and Sarah, of Rowde. There is another John Grant from further south, but I don't think he is the right one. Could you throw any light on this perhaps?
Many thanks to you.
Bronwyn
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I'd previously extracted these marriage details at A/C:
19 May 1844 Thomas SIMS alias SHIPMAN of full age bach lab otp son of William SIMS lab
Jemima GRANT (x) of full age spinster Maidservant otp dau of John GRANT lab
Witnesses: Charles PAGE, Martha GRANT
FamilySearch provides a dob 10 Jun 1822 for Jemima, dau of John/Elizabeth at Rowde, but I note that the second John in 1851 in Devizes, Greenwich Pensioner, with wife Mary was also born Rowde! However, in my experience the issue of 'old soldiers' tend to record with pride their father's former occupation - sometimes quoting rank and regiment - so I sway towards parentage of John/Elizabeth for Jemima until such time as a Jemima surfaces also in the family of John/Mary, who appear to have had children baptized at Devizes St Mary's.
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Thank you dee-jay
I'll go with Elizabeth Dallimore as her mother then.
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I am researching the SIMS family from Etchilhampton, I have found 7 siblings listed as being born in Etchilhampton from Daniel Sims in 1821 through to Rhoda Sims in 1832 and I want to trace their parents, Daniel and Jane. I know from the cenus records that the father, Daniel Sims was from Etchilhampton born around 1794 and his wife Jane is from All Cannings, born approx 1796.
There is no record of Daniel's birth in the Etchilhampton register, but interestingly the Etchilhampton register has the Shipman family listed who have a Daniel born in 1797 and several of the siblings have similar names to the Sims family. I also know that William Sims (born1822) had Shipman as a middle name from his marriage certificate.
I am wondering if the family changed its name as seems to have happened in All Cannings, but I have no idea how likely this is or how I would prove it. The alternative is that Daniel Sims was born in a neigbouring parish, perhaps All Cannings?
Another Sims connection I am trying to prove is the link to a famous poet and playwright, George Robert Sims born in London in 1847 and died in 1922. In his autobiography he says father is George, then grandfather and great grandfather are both called Robert.
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I am also interested in Daniel Sims (b. ~1796 in Etchilhampton). I believe that he was the father of a base born child with Alice Naish (Henry - b. early 1815), before marrying Jane Merritt (spellings differ) later that year in All Cannings on 20th November. I have eight children for Daniel and Jane - Joseph (1818), Daniel (1821), William (1822), Elizabeth (1825), Thomas (1826), John (1828), Jasper (1830) and Rhoda (1832).
I believe that Jane was herself base born and the daughter of Elizabeth/Betty Merritt, baptised 30th Jan 1796 in All Cannings. Elizabeth later marries a Grover (but I can't find where) and is found in the 1851 and 1861 Censuses staying with different parts of the Sims family. Her parents are Joseph and Mary and she is born in 1775.
Having looked at it, I think your theory about Sims = Shipman is very plausible and it would account for an otherwise invisible person in an area that otherwise has very good records. Certainly it was happening in All Cannings and Bishop Cannings, so it is natural that it should also hold in Etchilhampton.
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I am descended from Alice Naish who was born in Etchilhampton and who reportedly had an illigitimate child with Daniel Sims (Henry Naish born 1810 in Etchilhampton), before she married Richard Hall and Daniel married Jane Merritt. I too have tried researching Daniel Sims further back but to no avail so the information you have provided here is most helpful and will give me something further to look in to.
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I've been ploughing through correspondence of the late 1990s concerning the SHIPMANs and SIMS folk when I was assisting an Australian contact who made these comments:
In respect of Thomas SIMS alias SHIPMAN bap. 23 Jan 1795, marr. Elizabeth COWDREY -
The Sims/Cowdrey info was sent to me many years ago by an elderly Sims researcher. I have just rechecked my files and found the bap. of Daniel took place at Stanton St Bernard in 1823 as did several of his siblings. The remaining children having been bap. at All Cannings.
I have a copy of the banns for Joseph Joshua and Sarah Coward and the marriage entry from the Parish Register. He made his mark, while Sarah signed her name.
When J.J. died in 1844 his youngest son Stephen was present, so I imagine the old fellow was living with the family.
His son William SHIPMAN alias SIMS bap. 10 Feb 1797 marr. Catherine (nee Sheppard) had a son Thomas SHIPMAN alias SIMS marr. Jemima GRANT 1844 and arr. in Aust. in 1847 listed as SIMS on his shipping papers .....
I hope that's of some use.
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Thank you Dee Jay. That certainly gives me a clear line to follow. Hopefully I can work my way back further now.
Best Wishes
Bronwyn
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HELLO, i AM ALSO DESCENDED FROM THOMAS SIMS & JEMIMA GRANT, THEIR SON JOB SIMS WAS MY GREAT GRANDFATHER, HE MARRIED MARY JANE DELAHUNTY AND THEIR DAUGHTER ELSIE JANE SIMS WAS MY GRANDMOTHER.
IF ANY "COUSINS" WOULD LIKE TO MAKE CONTACT PLEASE EMAIL ME
CHEERS JOANNE
;)
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I am the great grand-daughter of Job Sims - one of Job's 9 children was my grandfather Arnold leslie Sims, he married Violet Olive Warren and they had two children my dad Leslie James Sims & a daughter Beverly Ann Sims (Hargreaves). leslie married Ann Blaby and had two children me (jackie) and my brother Anthony James. Beverly had three children (Vicki Ann, Cheryl Lee & Christopher John).
Thomas Sims ran the Clarendon Hotel SA in the 1850's and there is a photo around showing the SIMS name on the photo along with a listing of owners one of Which was Thomas. The Reynella Cemetery Main South Road Reynella has records for Job & his wife (sorry I forgot her name) and other SIMS relatives.
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Hi Joanne,
My grandfather was Arnold leslie who would have been Elsie's brother. I guess we are related. jackie
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Hi Jackiem,
Thankyou for your reply ...Yes we are related we are second cousins.. thanks for the info on your family, my grandmother Elsie Jane Sims was born in 1900 she married Charles Edward Taylor, my father Ronald Taylor their son.
Jemima Grant was our great x2 grandmother, Thomas Sims wife,she is buried at O'halloran hill cemetery..I have a fair bit of information that i can share including cause of death etc..i think after 4 posts you can message privately i havent been on here for awhile...again lovely to hear from you ....
Joanne
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Hi Joanne,
My Mum has been doing a fair bit of research on the SIMS arm of the family. I am sure she would be interested in any information that you might have. She has gone back as far as Thomas' grandfather I think. She probably hasnt covered off all families and has probably gone back on our direct line. Your Dad must be my dad's cousin. is your dad still around? If yes, you could ask him if he remembers my dad, I dont know whether they saw each other in their early years or not. My dad passed november 2010 after a short battle with the dreaded cancer. My aunty bev is still around though. I have attached a photo of the Royal oak Hotel in Clarendon. The sign on the balcony on the right hand side has the name SIMS although it is difficult to reach.
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Hi Jackie, yes my father is still alive,ill ask my brother to see if he remembers his cousin Leslie or uncle Arnold, he doesnt remember much when i have asked questions but you never know!!! there was also another child born to JOB SIMS & MARY JANE DELAHUNTY in 1908 OLIVE MAY SIMS was born at Morphett Vale,sa bdm's number 807/81, so they had 10 children. i will private message on the chat to give you my email Thomas Sims was a wood cutter at the time of his death in 1877 he died from disease of the brain dying in a fit ..... and the pic is great, we have lived interstate for many years and upon return have been to Claredon..cheers for the photograph sorry about your dad.
Joanne
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Hi Jackie and Joanne,
Thomas Shipman/Sims and Jemima GRANT were my 3xgreat grandparents too. I am descended from your Job SIMS' brother William John Henry SIMS. I'd love to hear more from you with any information you may have. Perhaps I may have something of use to you as well; it's some years since I've done any genealogy, but have lots of files!
best,
Natalie
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Hello, all! I'm new here, Sherry from America.
I can prove my ancestry back to William Syms/later Sims, who immigrated to Virginia in 1658, wrote his will in 1710 and died as a very old man in 1725 in New Kent County, Virginia. He owned land in both James City County and New Kent County. His will (which is only available because of a law suit in Louisa County, where the early records weren't destroyed) verifies that he is the father of my John Sims.
I've been trying to find out where in England William Syms came from.
From another site, I've found a William Syms who was baptised January 6, 1642, at Steeple Ashton, Wiltshire, England, the son of a Williams Syms. This birth date would have been about right for my William. Most of the immigrants to Virginia in the 17th century were from southwestern England, so I'm looking there first. This is strictly a stab in the dark, but does anyone have any information on this William Syms?
There are numerous wills of Sims' in Wiltshire listed on another site from the 17th century. Does anyone live in Wiltshire and have easy access to them? Most list Sims alias Shipman or Shipman alias Sims. In Virginia and South Carolina in colonial days, the term 'alias' was used, but it appeared to relate only to illegitimacy. For example, my husband has an ancestor who arrived in S. Carolina in 1725 and lived in the backwoods. He eventually took up with Elizabeth Hains, didn't marry her in the Church of England, but when proper clergy was available, he did so. The birth of their son and their marriage certificate from The Register Book for the Parish Prince Frederick Winyaw reads -
Godbold, John (alias John Hains) natural son of John Godbold and Elizabeth Hains born July 24th, 1739. Baptized April 24th, 1740. The said Godbold and Hains married the same day.
So, it's interesting to see 'alias' used in relation to a 'hold' on people. Were these Sims/Shipmans the children of a man named Sims or Shipman? Were they named Sims, but someone named Shipman sort of 'owned' them?
By the way, my brother's Y-DNA shows he's in the R-M269 group.
I would love to hear from anyone who has anything to share about the Sims/Shipmans of Wiltshire.
Thank you,
Sherry
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Hello, all! I'm new here, Sherry from America.
I can prove my ancestry back to William Syms/later Sims, who immigrated to Virginia in 1658, wrote his will in 1710 and died as a very old man in 1725 in New Kent County, Virginia. He owned land in both James City County and New Kent County. His will (which is only available because of a law suit in Louisa County, where the early records weren't destroyed) verifies that he is the father of my John Sims.
I've been trying to find out where in England William Syms came from.
From another site, I've found a William Syms who was baptised January 6, 1642, at Steeple Ashton, Wiltshire, England, the son of a Williams Syms. This birth date would have been about right for my William. Most of the immigrants to Virginia in the 17th century were from southwestern England, so I'm looking there first. This is strictly a stab in the dark, but does anyone have any information on this William Syms?
There are numerous wills of Sims' in Wiltshire listed on another site from the 17th century. Does anyone live in Wiltshire and have easy access to them? Most list Sims alias Shipman or Shipman alias Sims. In Virginia and South Carolina in colonial days, the term 'alias' was used, but it appeared to relate only to illegitimacy. For example, my husband has an ancestor who arrived in S. Carolina in 1725 and lived in the backwoods. He eventually took up with Elizabeth Hains, didn't marry her in the Church of England, but when proper clergy was available, he did so. The birth of their son and their marriage certificate from The Register Book for the Parish Prince Frederick Winyaw reads -
Godbold, John (alias John Hains) natural son of John Godbold and Elizabeth Hains born July 24th, 1739. Baptized April 24th, 1740. The said Godbold and Hains married the same day.
So, it's interesting to see 'alias' used in relation to a 'hold' on people. Were these Sims/Shipmans the children of a man named Sims or Shipman? Were they named Sims, but someone named Shipman sort of 'owned' them?
By the way, my brother's Y-DNA shows he's in the R-M269 group.
I would love to hear from anyone who has anything to share about the Sims/Shipmans of Wiltshire.
Thank you,
Sherry