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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: nelwild on Saturday 13 November 10 20:23 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
im trying to establish what happened to my 3xg grandmother after 1871.
Her birth is registered in Thanet Susannah Sarah Paine 1852.
1861 Susannah Fain b1852 Margate.
1871 Susanah Warner b 1852 Kent (mothers new partners surname)
I cant find a death or a certain fate for her after 1871.
On subsequent census theres this:
1881 Susannah Hart born 1854 Margate(husband Albert)
1891 Susannah Hart born 1851 Margate.
1901 Susannah Hart born 1848 Margate.
1911 Susannah Hart born 1850 Margate.
I can find no marriage between an Albert Hart and any Susannah 1871-1911.The 1911 says married 40 years.
I ve looked at all the other Susannahs born c1850 Margate and eliminated all but one.
Shes Susannah May born june quart 1850.
1851 born 1850 Margate.
1861 born 1848 Margate.
I cant find what became of her after that.There isnt a local death.The only close death for a May in Thanet is Hannah Margaret in 1872 age 22.I know Hannah is sometimes used for Susannah,and i can see no Hannahs born 1850 in the area.Still a bit of a long shot though. The only marriage for a Susannah May in Thanet is dec quart 1879 to a John Stevens.
Looking at the 1881 and after i can see no evidence of a John Stevens married to a Susannah,certainly not connected to Thanet.
If anyone can help me establish what happened to Susannah May id be extremely grateful.If i can eliminate her then id be as sure as i can be without a marriage about what became of my 3xgreat-grandmother.
Maybe Susannah May married John Stevens then went abroad,so if anyone can see any evidence of that id be grateful.
Just any ideas or suggestions would be really welcome,
many thanks,
Nel.
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Hi, Nel
I've just looked at your Paine/Hart posting and I am terribly confused by it.
You say:
im trying to establish what happened to my 3xg grandmother after 1871.
Her birth is registered in Thanet Susannah Sarah Paine 1852.
sounding quite assured that this is your lady. But, then, you go on to say that you are trying to eliminate a Susannah May as a possibility.
I guess my question to you is, 'how are you so certain that Susannah Sarah Paine is your 3x great-grandmother and still be questioning if Susannah May is her, instead?'.
Can you clarify/simplify your query?
Sincerely,
Susan
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I guess my question to you is, 'how are you so certain that Susannah Sarah Paine is your 3x great-grandmother and still be questioning if Susannah May is her, instead?'.
Both Susannah MAY and Susannah PAIN were born in the same area at the same time so Nelwild is trying to find the fate of Susannah MAY to see whether she could be the one who is later with Albert HART thus eliminating the possibility that Ms HART is actually Susannah PAIN if that makes sense.
Casalguidi :)
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Hi Casalguidi,
If you read Nel's initial query carefully, she clearly states that her 3x-great-grandmother - is - Susannah Sarah Paine born Thanet 1852. So, I am wondering how she can be so certain of this entry and still be questioning the possibility of another individual.
Had Nel have said that she "thought" Susannah Sarah Paine was her lady, my request for a clarification of her query would not have been necessary.
I think she has taken a wrong turn somewhere and my query is to serve as a jog for Nel to recheck her findings and possibilities. There is also a death in Elham District during December 1924 (vol. 2a, p. 1235) of HART, Susannah aged 74 which would put her birth circa 1850 - in line with that of the 1911 census, if that information is correct. There is also a death of in Elham District during June 1928 (vol. 2a, p. 1491) of HART, Albert aged 72 which would put his birth circa 1856 and make for a strong contender for the husband.
Sincerely,
Susan
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If you read Nel's initial query carefully
I did read the query carefully and it looks quite clear to me.
Susannah Sarah PAINE is Nel's ancestor last seen unmarried in 1871 ............... Nel is trying to find what became of her after 1871 ie. could she be the one with Albert HART or could that be Susannah MAY or even somebody else altogether.
Casalguidi :)
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Hello,
Casalguidis got it right.I had seen the two deaths in Elham,and given that they were living in Folkstone post-1871,thats probably them.But i still dont know if shes my 3xg grandmother.
The only other Susannah on pre-1871 census born circa right time and place that i havent eliminated is Susannah May,so if i can account for her it would make me more confident that i have the right one,
Nel.
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Hello Nel, Hello Casalguidi,
I am only trying to understand the logical sequence of events in the life of the 3x-ggp so that I may be of some real assistance in possibly identifying the correct solution to the problem. It would do neither one of us any good if I, or anyone else, fills in the blanks in the sequence of life events with a plethora of assumptions, which will likely be proved wrong in the long run. Educated hypothesis, however, will generally work to reveal the correct answers. But to form an educated hypothesis one needs to have a full set of facts and logical sequences upon which to build.
So, there needs to be some logical sequence of events laid out tracking the trail from the 2x-ggp to the named 3x-ggp, Susannah Sarah PAINE - census, marriage certificate, and/or birth certificate of the 2x-ggp.
Nel, if you believe that your 3x-great-grandmother is Susannah Sarah PAINE then what is your proof of that circumstance that leads you from your 2x-ggp back to your 3x-ggp?
Or, do you have a 2x-ggp who had been orphaned and you are attempting to move forward in time from a possible 3x-ggp to your 2x-ggp and just randomly settled on Susannah Sarah PAINE?
Do you have a birth certificate for your 2x-great-grandparent that specifies that Susannah Sarah PAINE is the next generation back? What date was that child born? Where was that child born?
Under what surname was the birth of your 2x-ggp registered? PAINE, as would be the case if your 2x-ggp were illegitimate, or, under the surname of HART, or, under some other surname?
If you have no certain fate for Susannah Sarah PAINE following 1861 then how are you so certain that the 1871 entry of Susannah WARNER is your Susannah? Were there other known siblings of your 3x-ggp still living in the household or was your 2x-ggp living in the WARNER household?
What leads do you have emanating from census and/or marriage or birth certificates of your 2x-ggp that could possibly help to trace the movements of your 3x-ggp over the ensuing years from the time of the birth of your 2x-ggp? For example, on the marriage of your 2x-ggp was there a witness whose name you didn't immediately recognize as being family, e.g. S. SMITH, who could possibly have been your 3x-ggp, Susannah Sarah PAINE. Is there a neighbour on a census near to where your 2x-ggp was living who could have been a candidate for your 3x-ggp?
If you are able to shed a bit more light on this problem, I will take a look at it again to see, what, amongst my multitude of resources, could possibly hold the answer for you.
I would say that I wasn't the only confused by the lack of logical sequence in the original posting as when I had looked at it, it had received over 200 viewings but not one response.
Sincerely,
Susan
P.S. There is a Susannah Sarah PAIN who died at Greenwich District during June Qtr. 1862 (vol. 1d, p. 412) yet the Susannah Sarah PAINE whose birth is registered in Thanet 1852 is the only birth from 1845 to 1950 with that precise combination of Christian names under any surname spelling variant. (I am ruling out the marriage at St. James Dec Qtr 1861 but there is a marriage Dec Qtr 1888 in Ipswich District of a Susannah Sarah PAYNE. So you see, there are also many other possible outcomes for Susannah Sarah PAINE that took place farther field. These are just a sampling of the possibilities.)
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Hello Zacktyr,
thanks for such a detailed response.Ill give you what i have,im afraid its a bit messy though,and not all that easy to follow.Ill start from the top and work down.
4xgreat grandparents Richard Holtum Pain/Jane Elizabeth Spain.
married Parish Church St.John,Margate on 12/10/1845.
Hes full age,labourer,living in Margate,father William Pain,mariner.
Shes minor,living Margate,father John Spain,labourer.
both made their mark with a cross,witnesses W H Spain/George Dixon.
the first confusion comes from 1841 census:
1841 in St Peters.
Richard Holton b1785 Kent.
Susannah(nee Pain) b1809 Kent.
Richard Pain b1828 Kent.
Bartholomew Pain b 1830 Kent.
class HO107 piece468 book19.
freebmd has baptisms for a Richard and Barth Hood Pain circa right dates and place,but as sons of Elizabeth Pain.
Richard Holtons wife Susannah Pain had a brother William b1790 St Peters and Elizabeth b1803.
So the baptism shows Richard as son of Elizabeth Pain,his marriage cert has him as son of William and the 1841 shows him with Richard Holton and Susannah Pain.
One possibility that occured to me is that they were the sons of William and a possible wife Elizabeth,but for some reason were raised by Richard and Susannah,possibly orphaned.
1851 census:
Richard H Pain b1825 Margate
Jane E b1826 Margate.
Richard J b1847 Margate.
George W b1848 St Peters.
John T b1850 Minster.
class HO107 piece 1629 folio287 page6.
I think Richard H died between 1851-61.Their are two deaths in Thanet,one in 1855,another in 1856.
1861 two entries:
In Thanet Workhouse:
Richard Fain(Pain) b1846 St Peters.deserted child.
John b1849 St Peters.deserted.
SUSANNA b1852 St Peters.deserted.
class RG9 piece524 folio71 page2
In a boarding house in Whitstable:
Jane Warman? b1828 Margate
Lenny? Payne b1855 Margate
Elizabeth Warner b1859 Whitstable.
class RG9 piece 524 folio71 page2.
I think Jane Warman could be a mis-transcription of Warner,although it definately looks like Warman on document.
Similarly,i think Lenny is Louisa Payne,although it definately looks like Lenny.
1871 census:
Thomas Warner b1834 Whitstable
Jane b1826 Margate
SUSANNAH born1852 Kent
Louisa born 1854 Kent
Sarah born 1870 Kent(listed as daughter,but shes grand-daughter)
class RG10 piece974 folio30 page15.
1881 census:
Thomas Bennett b1857 Whitstable
Louisa b1854 Minster,Kent.
Thomas Warner b1835 Seasalter,father-in-law.
Sarah b1870 Seasalter grand-child.
class RG11 piece965 folio61 p21
1891 census:
Louisa Payne b1852 Minster married
Sarah A b1870 Whitstable.
Emma J b1886 Whitstable.
Louisa E b1890 Whitstable.
Thomas Warner b1831 Whitstable.single.
class RG12 piece711 folio23 page11
1901 census:
Thomas W Warner b1834 Whitstable.
Louisa E Pain b1855 Margate daughter.
next door:
Sarah A Payne b1871 Whitstable.
Emma J b1886 Whitstable.
Lucy E b1889 Whitstable.
James T b1892 Whitstable.
class RG13 piece800 folio58 p27.
Theres a death for Thomas Warner sept quart 1904 Blean.
A possible death for Jane Payne sept 1879 Blean,although the age is a few years out.
My great-grandmother Emma Jane Pains birth cert shows her born 21/11/1885 Middle Wall,Seasalter,no father shown,mother Sarah Amelia Pain of Middle Wall,Seasalter,registered on 10th Dec.Shown on freebmd.
also on freebmd:
James Thomas Pain sept1892 blean 2a 852
Louisa(Lucy) Eliza june1889 blean 2a 841
her two siblings.
Sarah Amelias birth cert shows her born 14/03/1870 Whitstable,no father shown,mother Susannah Sarah Pain of Whitstable registered 24/03/1870.
Susannah Sarah Paine june quart 1852 Isle of Thanet 2a 543 on freebmd,dont have that cert yet.
Sarah Amelias death cert shows she died on 17/03/1941 at 2 Victoria St,Whitstable,age 71,surname Payne,widow of James Thomas Payne(seaman).The informant was her son James Thomas Payne.
Ive got Louisas marriage cert to Arthur Little on 26/08/1908 and she gives her father as Thomas Payne(deceased) farmer.
My great grandmother Emma Jane married my great grandfather Nelson Camburn on 05/06/1908 Whitstable Parish Church,no father shown for her.
She herself had an illigitimate daughter Margaret(Meg) reg june quart 1903 Blean.We dont know who her father was.She married Sidney Kay dec quart 1904 blean.They had about 10 children and lived their married life in London,where he was from.I believe most of them married around the West Ham/Romford area.
None of all this is helped by the fact that g grandmother never talked about her past or family,and ive found very few people on GenesReunited or other sites who are researching them,none in fact,apart from one relative of Sidney Kay.
Ive really gone on here,but if you or anyone else can dissect what ive got,add to it or take from it,id appreciate for anything at all.
Thanks to everyone whos helped me on this,im reallt grateful,
Nel.
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Hi, Nel,
Many thanks for your informative reply. I've gone through and charted the information and will have a really good look through it and my resources for you. I have to get breakfast on the table at the moment, but will definitely get back to you before the day's end - I'm on EST in Ontario, Canada.
I did find your earlier two postings on this problem the first of which did give me a bit more information to work with concerning the possible connection to HART but still no joy coming from that one:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,459097.0.html
As well as your posting in an effort to eliminate Susanna MAY:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,459786.0.html
I will write again after I have had a chance to pound to books, so to speak, for you. Here's to hoping we'll get it sorted for you. :)
Sincerely,
Susan
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Thanks Susan,
i look forward to anything you might be able to add on anyone in these posts,
regards,
Nel.
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Hi, Nel
I will have to do this in installments as I'm thinking somewhat out loud as I go along.
On the birth certificates of the children of Sarah Amelia PAIN there is no father recorded. As of 1875 a father's name could only be recorded on the certificate if he was present at the time of the registration or had provided a proxy statement granting his permission. In the case of married couples this meant that they usually both attended the registration with only one being chosen to "sign the registration". In the case of illegitimate children, unless the father was present there was no chance for his name to be included. If the mother had been married at the time of the birth registrations then her surname would be shown as Sarah Amelia PAIN formerly #SMITH#, for example. This step might have been missed on one of the registrations but not likely on all three. The absence of the "formerly" statement on all three registrations would make me seriously consider that Sarah Amelia had not been married to any of the children's father, nor married to any other man. The inclusion of the name of a father on a marriage certificate was generally done so as to minimize or "hide" the illegitimacy of one of the parties to a marriage.
So, my question to you is, do you have a marriage certificate for the James Thomas PAYNE, the seaman, to your Sarah Amelia PAIN. If not, and you haven't been able to locate such a certificate, then I would have to go with the evidence that no such marriage existed and it was simply an invention on the part of Lucy for her marriage to Arthur LITTLE.
Next, is there any "formerly" statement included in any of the three birth certificates for the child of Sarah Amelia PAIN that would indicate that Sarah, herself, bore a birth surname different than PAIN?
If not, then we would have to take it that Sarah Amelia PAIN was her birth name and you say you have her birth certificate showing that birth name. Certainly, when I checked the birth registration index there is a Sarah Amelia PAIN registered March Qtr 1870, Blean District, v. 2, p785.
There is no corresponding death registration up to 1891 so this is a good sign.
There is also no marriage registration for a Sarah Amelia PAIN anywhere in England up to 1930. This, too, is good and tells me that the Sarah Amelia PAIN born 1870 is likely your lady BUT that she was not married at the time of the birth of her three children.
This now allows us to move the next step up the ladder to the mother named on Sarah Amelia PAIN's own birth certificate - Susannah Sarah PAIN.
Asking the same question in relation to Sarah Amelia PAIN's birth certificate - was her mother, Susannah Sarah PAIN shown as "formerly" somebody else or just simply surname PAIN? The only registered Susannah Sarah PAINE anywhere in England and Wales is the one in Thanet District in 1852. So, if Sarah Amelia PAIN's birth certificate provides no "formerly" surname for her mother then we would have to work with the hypothesis that her mother is this Susannah Sarah PAINE born during 1852. There is a death of a Sarah Susannah PAINE registered during 1875 in Camberwell District.
I am going to have to leave off here for tonight as another posting I was building at the same time concerning Thomas WARNER I have just inadvertantly erased and will have to reconstruct that one, tomorrow.
Sincerely,
Susan
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Hi, Nel
Installment 2:
There are 2 Thomas Warners born within a few years and miles of each other and each has a Louisa and a Sarah closely associated with their respective families. Both also married at Blean during 1856. So, here it goes!
The first Thomas Warner:
First Marriage
Mar Qtr 1856, Blean District, vol. 2a, p. 670, spouse Fanny Maria WALTER
as also confirmed by KCC website:
Name: WARNER , Thomas , ,
Year of Marriage: 1856
Entry Number: 321
Register: 42/1
Location: Kent County Council
Name: WALTER , Fanny Maria
Year of Marriage: 1856
Entry Number: 321
Register: 42/1
Location: Kent County Council
Death of first wife
Fanny Maria WARNER, Dec Qtr 1859, Blean District, vol. 2a, p. 351
1861
Whitstable, RG9/524, ED 2, fol. 27. p. 22, FHL film #0542655, household schedule #20, Marine Street, north side:
John Warner, head, mar, 54, mariner, born Kent, Whitstable
Mary Warner, wife, mar, 56, mariner's wife, born Kent, Whitstable
Thomas Warner, widower, [status left blank] 25, mariner, born Kent, Whitstable
John Mears Warner, son, unmar, 21, mariner's son, born Kent, Whitstable
Sarah Warner, daughter, unmar, 16, mariner's daughter, born Kent, Whitstable
Sopha Ann Warner, daughter, [unmar], 12, scholar, daughter, born Kent, Whitstable
Fanny Maria Warner, grand-daughter, 4, scholar, born Kent, Whitstable
Second Marriage
Thomas Warner married Mar Qtr 1869 2a, 847
Susannah Shilling - Blean District
and confirmed by KCC website listings as following:
Name: WARNER , Thomas , ,
Year of Marriage: 1869
Entry Number: 2
Register: BL/4
Location: Kent County Council
Name: SHILLING , Susannah , ,
Year of Marriage: 1869
Entry Number: 2
Register: BL/4
Location: Kent County Council
1871
Whitstable, RG10/975, ED 8b, fol. 35, p. 23, FHL film #0827254, household schedule #105, 26 Albert Street:
Thomas Warner, head, mar, 35, mariner, born Kent, Graveney
Susannah Warner, wife, mar, 33, born Kent, Whitstable
Fanny M Warner, daughter, unmar, 14, born Kent, Whitstable
Next door is
William Shilling, head, mar, 38, mariner, born Whitstable
Sarah A. Shilling, wife, mar, 32, born Whitstable
Mary A. Shilling, daughter, unmar, 9, scholar, born Whitstable
Alphanse Shilling, son, unmar, 6, scholar, born Whitstable
Next door is
Richard Shilling, head, mar, 65, mariner, born Whitstable
Elizabeth Shilling, wife, mar, 65, born Whitstable
1881
[daughter of the above Thomas Warner is visiting here]
Whitstable, RG11/964, ED 3, fol. 41, p. 11, FHL film #1341229.
Rose H. Waters, wife, mar, 31, mariner's wife, born Whitstable
Harry Waters, son, 7, scholar, born Whitstable
Thomas Browning, brother, unmarried, 26, butcher, born Whitstable
Harry S. West, brother, unmarried, 22, shipwright, born Whitstable
Fanny M. Warner, visitor, unm, 24, domestic servant, born Whitstable
1891
Whitstable, RG12/711, ED 2, fol. 23, p. 11, FHL fiche #6095821, household schedule #79, 1 Red Lion Lane:
Louisa Payne, wife, mar, 39, charwoman, born Kent, Minster
Sarah A Payne, niece, single, 21, field labourer, born Kent, Whitstable
Emma J Payne, grand-niece, [single], 5, born Kent, Whitstable
Louisa E Payne, grand-niece, [single], 1, born Kent, Whitstable
Thomas Warner, father-in-law, single, 60, mariner, born Kent, Whitstable
And then it starts to get messy, again. So I will put 1901 and the other Thomas Warner family on separate postings.
Sincerely,
Susan
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Hi Nel,
It's worse than I thought! There are 3 Thomas Warner's all inhabiting roughly the same vicinity at the same time.
Here is Thomas Warner #2, who disappears after the 1861 census but leaves behind a widow. Again, I've tracked this one from him with his parents in 1851.
1851
Whitstable, HO107/1625, ED 2a, fol. 405, p. 3, FHL film #0193526, household schedule #162, Old Sea Wall
Thomas Warner, head, mar, , dealer in marine stores, born Kent, Whitstable
Sarah Warner, wife, mar, 47, no occupation, born Kent, Whitstable
Thomas Warner, son, unm 21, dealer in marine stores, born Kent, Whitstable
Sarah Warner, daughter, unm, 15, born Kent, Whitstable
Hope Warner, son, unm, 13, scholar, born Kent, Whitstable
Faith Warner, son, unm, 13, scholar [noted that these two are twins], born Kent, Whitstable
James Warner, son, unm, 7, scholar, born Kent, Whitstable
Albert Warner, son, unm, 6, scholar, born Kent, Whitstable
Lewis Warner, son, unm, 3, scholar, born Kent, Whitstable
Marriage
Sep Qtr 1856, Blean District, vol. 2a, p. 867, as confirmed by KCC website:
Name: WARNER , Thomas Henry
Year of Marriage: 1856
Entry Number: 330
Register: 42/1
Location: Kent County Council
Name: HOGBEN , Sarah Ann
Year of Marriage: 1856
Entry Number: 330
Register: 42/1
Location: Kent County Council
1861
Staplegate, Canterbury, RG9/522, ED 6, fol. 80, p. 24, FHL film #0542654, Household
schedule #128, 7 Adman's Square:
Thomas H. Warner, head, mar, 32, general dealer, born Kent, Whitstable
Sarah A. Warner, wife, mar, 32, general dealer's wife, born Kent, Blean 1829
Lewis A. Warner, brother, unmar, 14, dealer's assistant, born Kent, Whitstable
There are several deaths of Thomas Warner's but this one in 1862 rings most likely
Sep Qtr 1862, Blean District, vol. 2a, p. 321. Of course, only the death certificate would help to determine if this was the husband of Sarah Ann Warner, below in 1871, or not.
1871
Milton-by-Canterbury, RG10/982, ED 18, fol. 90, p. 17, FHL film #0838719, household schedule #93, 73 Charlotte Street:
Sarah Ann Warner, head, widow, 43, dress maker, born Kent, Blean near Canterbury
Emily E. Warner, daughter, [unmar], 9, scholar, born Kent, Canterbury
[birth reg. Dec Qtr 1861, Canterbury District, vol. 2a, p. 548 - Emily Elizabeth Warner]
Walter G. Warner, son, [unmar], 7, scholar, born Kent, Blean Canterbury
[birth reg. Dec Qtr 1863, Blean District, vol. 2a, p. 610 - Walter George William Warner - possibly illegitimate]
Sarah A. Warner, daughter, [unmar], 4, scholar, born Kent, Blean Canterbury
[birth reg. Dec Qtr 1865, Blean District, vol. 2a, p. 651 - Sarah Ann Louisa Warner - possibly illegitimate]
Hope Warner, lodger, unmar, [male], 32, marine store dealer, born Kent, Whitstable
More later. Not much point in tracking this one any further but, this information will help keep him sorted out of the rest of the Thomas Warner families.
Sincerely,
Susan
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Hello again Susan,
many thanks for all this.I said it was a bit confusing.
With regard to the birth certificates for my g grandmother and her two siblings,the only one i have is my great-grandmothers.On it,her mother is Sarah Amelia Pain,no mention of formerly or anything like that.In the father box,theres nothing,not even a line.I think its crucial that i now send for the birth certs of her two siblings.Id assumed they would be the same,but obviously they could reveal anything.They may not have even had the same fathers.
I havent managed to find any marriage for Sarah Amelia to a Pain.What Louisa(Lucys) marriage cert says is this:
Lucy Payne aged 20,spinster,no profession,of 44 Middle Wall,Whit.father Thomas Payne(deceased) farmer.
marries on 26/09/1908 Blean Registry Office
Arthur Little,aged 22,batchelor,mariner,44 Middle Wall,father John Little(deceased) labourer.
witnesses Nelson and Emma Camburn(my g grandparents).
It did occur to me that Lucy might have invented her father on the certificate.My Mum tells me she was a different character to my g grandmother,more conventional as it were.Great grandmother couldnt give a tuppence for social snobbery and wouldnt have been one to invent a father just to please those who disapproved,which would explain the blank space on her marriage cert.
The only other reference to a partner for Sarah Amelia is on her death cert.She is described as the widow of James Thomas Payne,seaman(not farmer).The informant was her son James Thomas Payne,who worked as an oyster dredger before becoming a refuse collector,so maybe he just gave his own details,not knowing who his father was.
On Sarah Amelias birth cert,there is no reference to her mother having formally been anyone else.Just Susannah Sarah Pain.Again,father box completely blank.
On to the Warners,i had researched these other two Thomas quite extensively as i believe them to be connected further back,though ive yet to prove it.My 5xgreat grandmother was Sarah Warner b circa 1795 Whitstable.She married John Spain on 12/10/1817 Parish Church St John,Margate.They were the parents of Jane Elizabeth Spain who married Richard Pain.
1841
Sarah Spain(nee Warner) b1801 Kent.
class HO107 piece468 book2
1851
Sarah Spain b1816 Whitstable
class HO107 piece1629 folio287 page6
1861
Sarah Spain b1795 Whitstable
class RG9 piece534 folio48 p19
1871
Sarah Spain
classRG10 piece991 folio68 p28.
There are several Warners born c1800 in Whitstable,including Thomas born 1795(father of Thomas who married Sarah Hogben),Benjamin born 1791 and Philip born 1784.There is also a Philip on familysearch who married an Elizabeth Camburn on 05/12/1771.They all used variations such as Warener/Warrener etc,so i think they are linked.
I think the Thomas Henry Warner who married Sarah Hogben might have died in 1871,as theres a death Thomas Henry Warner march 1871 Milton,which is where his family are in 1871,so it must have been just before the census was taken.
I still have no idea where my Thomas was before 1871 though.
Thank you for taking so much time to do this,and anything else greatly appreciated,
Nel.
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Hello,
i got Louisa(Lucy)Elizas birth cert back today and its as i thought it would be,and not much help:
Louisa Eliza b27/04/1889 Middle Wall,Seasalter.Name and occupation of father,blank.Mother Sarah Amelia Pain,charwoman of Middle Wall,Seasalter,no signature.registered on 13/05/1889.
So that takes me no further.Ill send for James today,got to do it gradually as money allows.Not holding out much hope,but you never know.
Any further help from anyone much appreciated,
Nel.
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Hello Nel,
And my apologies for not getting back to you and finishing off my sift-and-sort of the Thomas Warner problem. My computer went down :'( and just now back up and running smoothly :). So I shall turn my attention back to this dilemma of yours to see what else I can assist with. :-\ Will look at it again, tonight, and reply tomorrow.
Glad to hear that you now have Louisa Eliza's birth certificate. At least, her mother is a certainty and the evidence is mounting that points to a story made to "save face" at her marriage. I suspect, as you do, that James' birth certificate will say much the same thing.
Sincerely,
Susan
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Hello Susan,
glad to hear your back with us.I will post James details when they arrive,and look forward to anything you can add,
Nel.
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Hi, Nel,
Progress seems to be slow on my end. Sorry about that.
Before I worked up the last Thomas Warner, I thought I would go back and take another look at the Susannah May question that you had initially raised.
Without having had an opportunity to see the marriage certificate I think there is a strong possibility that this could be the Susannah May who had been born at Margate during June quarter of 1850. Working from the Kent County Council website there is the following marriage:
Name: MAY , Susannah , ,
Year of Marriage: 1879
Entry Number: 468
Register: T/33/2
Location: Kent County Council
with a match to:
Name: STEVENS , John , ,
Year of Marriage: 1879
Entry Number: 468
Register: T/33/2
Location: Kent County Council
The marriage register code equates to T/33 or St Lawrence (Ramsgate).
I then went a little spare trying to track this couple on the census and aside from finding a John Stevens of the right age in 1881 married but living separate from his wife as a boarder, the only John and Susannah Stevens I could find was at Elham. The Elham-residing Susannah, however, was too old to have been the Susannah May born at Margate during 1850.
Finally, in checking the 1871 census for the Elham couple I did find them at Elham with 2 children, Frances and Florence. In checking for a marriage of this particular John Stevens I found the marriage during March quarter 1854 at Elham District to a Susannah Elizabeth Carswell. So, conclusively, I can say that the Susannah May who was born at Margate during June quarter of 1850 is NOT the Susannah May who also was born at Margate but who married John Stevens and resided at Elham.
So, there is the distinct possibility that the Susannah May who was born during June Quarter 1850 is the lady who married John Stevens at Ramsgate during 1879. Finding her on the census or in a death registration would be key, though, as well as the most obvious route of checking this marriage in the registers at Ramsgate. I'm not certain if the vol. 2 portion of the reference refers to a later volume of marriages at the C of E in Ramsgate or to the register office volume. Sadly, I don't have the registers that late for Ramsgate at my disposal. But, at least you could use this as the substance of a fresh look up request for this marriage at Ramsgate. The marriage during the December quarter of 1879. Susannah May who was born during June quarter of 1850 had parents Zebecee May, Jr. and Elizabeth nee Willmott and can be found at home with her family in 1851 and 1861 but is gone by 1871. No identifiable death registration between 1871 and 1879.
I'll continue with the third Thomas Warner later tonight, all being well.
Sincerely,
Susan
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Hi, Nel,
Just discovered that 1911 census of Albert and Susannah Hart include a William Hart aged 20 in the household. I don't have access to the image of the census so cannot determine where the William was born and only one on 1901 born during 1891 is at Cheriton to a William and Sarah Hart who were residing at Folkestone. All other close years of birth relate to William Harts born in northwest Kent - New Brompton, Halling, Erith, Darenth, etc., with later ones born 1895 and later in southeast Kent.
Something else to ponder. I must go and make supper!
Sincerely,
Susan
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Hello Susan,
apologies for the delay in answering;i always seem to have too many things on the go at once.Id really like to solve this though,as its a direct line of mine.
I do think the mysterious John Stevens is a very strong possibility for Susannah May.But where is he on the census?And where is Susannah May on the 1871?
I think the only answer is to risk losing a tenner and send for the John Stevens/Susannah May marriage cert to see if it gives her father as Zebedee.If its not her,i cant think what else to do.
Just looking at the general picture,Albert Hart does feel right for my Susannah.At least there isnt the 1871 gap for a start.If it is her,the feeling i get is that something happened between 1871-1881 that caused her to become estranged from her family.On the 1871,shes with her mother(my 4xg grandmother),step-father and infant daughter(my 2xg grandmother).From 1881 onwards,my 2xg grandmother is raised by family in Whitstable,but no mother.Then if Susannah Hart is her,my 3xgreat grandmother seems to spend the rest of her long life exciled in Folkstone with Albert Hart,just the two of them and no more children.If this is the case,id love to know what caused the rift.
Families no help now,as my great grandmother was secretive and never spoke about her past,so no one knows anything.My Nans 92 now,but with very good long term memory,and all she can remember is an uncle Jim(James Pain).
No other family researching them either,and no-one on GenesReunited,so i just keep waiting and hoping.
The William Hart born 1890 was born in Margate and is Albert Harts nephew.Williams brother Charles was born in Hastings in 1888,they have cousins born in Margate and Hastings,so there are strong links to both towns.
Anything else from anyone greatly appreciated,
thanks,
Nel.
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Nel, have you identified possible death references for both Albert and Susannah from the GRO index http://freebmd.rootsweb.com ??? If so, and it was the Elham district (covers Folkestone area) get in touch with the cemeteries office at Shepway District Council http://www.shepway.gov.uk/content/view/2077/30 and ask for a search of the burial registers for both of them. Also ask for a search of the grave registers to see if there was anybody else buried in the plot(s) with them (of course that won't apply if they had public/pauper graves but you never know). Also ask for a lookup in the grave purchase register which will show who purchased the plot etc. etc. though, again, it won't be useful if they were public/pauper graves. So that's the burial, grave and grave purchase registers to ask for details from. I think they are usually helpful.
Up to the mid 1920s they would be in Cheriton Road Cemetery and from the later 1920s at Hawkinge unless there was already a grave for them in Cheriton Road Cemetery. If you can get some dates then you should be able to get a lookup in the local newspapers to see if there was any obituary or death notice which could be useful too.
Neither might answer any questions but it's worth a try.
Casalguidi :)
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Thanks Casalguidi,
i will try all of this.
I think i need to get off my backside now and do some more intensive and probing research.Most of what ive done so far has been quite lazy and generally involved census returns and freebmd,and a lot of help from others,for which im very grateful.
Im determined that if i dont solve this it wont be through lack of effort,so ill try anything that might hold a clue.
Any other suggestions appreciated,
Nel.