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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Westmeath => Topic started by: isobel58 on Friday 10 December 10 22:48 GMT (UK)
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My great, great grandfather was Michael McGovern he married Bridget Tormay around 1861 they had 12 children. Their son James is listed on the 1911 census as still living with them. They also had my great grandfather John who married and died in Scotland. Also Hugh who married in Isabella Meldrum in Sligo in 1905. There was also Thomas, Julia and Michael born 1868. I think some of the children were born in Longford and they could have lived in Mullingar too. Michael went to Argentina and his son Lorenzo McGovern became the first Argentine Ambassador to Dublin in 1955. I would like to find out about Michael and Bridgets other children. I am almost sure one or two of them went to live in America.
Any help would be greatly appreciated
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Have you any more info on exactly where in Longford or Mullingar they came from? There were Tormeys just outside Mullingar at Portloman/Bennetstown in the right time frame. PM
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For reference here's the family in the 1911 census in the townland of Russagh (as in the title of this thread)-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Westmeath/Rathowen/Russagh/882056
Looks like Bridget and some of the children in 1901 census but Michael's not listed-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Westmeath/Rathowen/Russagh/1779314
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Hi
Thank you both for your replies and help. I really appreciate it.
I have no idea where the Tormey's came from sorry, I know that makes it very difficult.
All I know some of the McGovern children were born in Longford and Baptised there too. I got that from familysearch.org. I was trying to find Thomas on the 1901 and 1911 census, no luck so far.
this is what i know Thomas born 18/3/1871 at 246 Street Longford?( recorded that way)
James born 1864-1865
Julia 16/10/1878
Michael 06/04/1868 at 248 Street Londford (that's how it's recorded on the site)
Hugh 09/10/1874 he married in Sligo in 1905 and died in Scotland
John 1869 my (great grandfather) he married died in Scotland
There father Michael's birthplace listed as Russagh.
I know that James was still living with them in 1911.
I saw the 2 census records and noticed that Michael wasn't on the 1901 census. On the 1911 census the Visitor Grandson from Scotland is my Grandfather. There are another 6 or 7 children that I haven't been able to find.
Do you know how I can trace their birth records without really knowing a Christian name, only know time frame for births and the parents names and most probably born Longford or Russagh?
I know that one or two of the children went to live in America.
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Do you know how I can trace their birth records without really knowing a Christian name, only know time frame for births and the parents names and most probably born Longford or Russagh?
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The only practical way I can think of to to this would be to browse through baptisms in the relevant RC parish records. These are available on microfilm in the National Library in Dublin.
Some Longford and Westmeath parish record transcripts are available on the pay-website of the Irish Family History Foundation at : http://www.rootsireland.ie/ It's worth checking that they cover the parishes you are interested in before trying a search.
Shane
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Hi Shane
Thanks for you reply. Will take a look at the web link. I thought they might hold records in St Mary's R.C. Church in Rathowen ( I'm not sure if I should be looking for an R.C. Church in Longford too) The National Library in Dublin are their records online or do you have to go there in person? I ask because I live in Scotland.
What I also thought of doing was sending an email to the Longford paper. I visited Ireland in 1970 with my Mum's cousin and we visited Longford and Mullingar and there were cousins not much older than me that we met there. They would be in their late 50's now. It might be worthwhile putting a letter in the paper with some family details and the story of my visit, it might jog someone's memory
I will definitely try your suggestion, there has to be records somewhere on the family.
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Thanks for you reply. Will take a look at the web link. I thought they might hold records in St Mary's R.C. Church in Rathowen ( I'm not sure if I should be looking for an R.C. Church in Longford too) The National Library in Dublin are their records online or do you have to go there in person? I ask because I live in Scotland.
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The NLI dont have online records, just the microfilms.
See the Irish Times website for details of RC parish names and areas covered :
Co. Westmeath RC parishes (http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/browse/counties/rcmaps/westmeathrc.htm)
Co. Longford RC parishes (http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/browse/counties/rcmaps/longfordrc.htm)
Shane
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Thanks for you reply. Will take a look at the web link. I thought they might hold records in St Mary's R.C. Church in Rathowen ( I'm not sure if I should be looking for an R.C. Church in Longford too)
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The town and townland of Rathowen is in the Civil Parish of Rathaspick, and covered by the RC parish of 'Rathaspick and Russagh' - see : Rathaspick RC Parish (http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/rcparishmaps/index.cfm?fuseaction=showidrecords&CityCounty=Westmeath&CityCounty=Westmeath&parish=Rathaspick&churchid=176) (see the the link at the bottom titled : Click here for a listing of placenames within this parish. )
NLI microfilm is : P.4236 and covers dates back to 1822 for baptisms, and 1819 for marriages.
The records appear to be listed on the RootsIreland website under the townname (Rathowen) rather than parish name.
Shane
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thanks, shane
Will check it all out. It looks like the records at the National Archive have to be searched in person. Will see what I can find on the sites you have given me. thanks again
Isobel
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Hi Isobel - just in case you don't have the info, the two newspapers are:
The Westmeath Examiner and the Longford Leader. Both have contact details on their website.
http://www.ardaghdiocese.org/page10.html gives the details of the parish priest. He may still have the original registers,if you are lucky. As it happens he is covering both St. Mary's rathowen and St. Mary's Street, (which is a nearby village).
It might be worth sending him a copy of the letter too.
Russagh is very close to the Longford Westmeath border. Street or Streete is the next village to Rathowen, so right beside Russagh. Parts of the area intrude into Co. Longford.
If you have looked at Shanes link, you will get the idea.
Local historians John Tormey and Peter Wallace wrote a book about Russagh in 1983.
If you don't have this book, PM me and I will be able to give you a contact address.
http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000102037/Details
You probably have found Michael Jnr. on www.irlandeses.org
and this: http://www.irishgenealogy.com.ar/genealogia/G/MacGovern/michael.htm - he certanly had a large family! The owner of this tree may know more about the forebears of Michael and Brigid?
http://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths/westmeath/russagh.htm c. 1854
McGoven John Russagh Westmeath
And for Street:
Mc Govern Patrick Kilshallow Street Westmeath
is the only likely family listed - either could well be Michael snr's father/brother/uncle, but you need proof to link them.
PM
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Hi Pastmagic
What can I say, how fantastic all this great information. I am really very grateful to you for all your hard work. I found Michael and his wife and in laws on the Argentina site. I have also sent an email to Jorge who has the Argentinian tree. My daughter in London is fluent in Spanish and she translated a letter to him. I only sent it on Friday and I'm waiting for a reply.
The maps are great I didn't realise the layout of the different places. I thought Street on the birth records had a bit missing I didn't realise it was a place. I was going to write to the Longford Leader hoping I could jog someones memory. I will PM for the contact details for the authors of the book. Wouldn't it be great if the Tormey that was the co-author was related to my g.g. grandmother?
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Do hope that you have good results from Argentina. I will PM you the details of the book. Yes, Irish Placenames are very confusing. I think a letter to the Parish Priest might yeild results, seeing as the parish records go back to1822. Also he may be able to point you in the direction of the Local historians. PM
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Hiya
i agree about the Parish Priest. There is St Mary's I'll also check for the Chapel in Streete where they would have been baptised.
Also will put something in the Longford Leader. Also waiting for Louis Keirnan from Mullingar who runs the Irish/Argentina Society. He sent me an email weeks ago to say he would contact me when he came back from Argentina, no word from him yet. I did send him another email to let him know about Jorge again no reply.
Thanks again for all your help. i'll keep you up to date
Isobel
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So Street is a civil parish... I searched for a townland with the name and couldn't find it..
It's also the name of an RC parish - see Streete PC Parish (http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/rcparishmaps/index.cfm?fuseaction=showidrecords&churchid=179&CityCounty=Westmeath&CityCounty=Westmeath&parish=Streete)
Available record include baptisms from 1821, marriages from 1820, and deaths/burials from 1772.
See the following link for details of the Civil Parish in Samuel Lewis 1837 - Parish of Street (http://www.libraryireland.com/topog/s2.php)
extract : Street, a parish, partly in the barony of Ardagh, county of Longford, but chiefly in that of Moygoish, in Westmeath...2 1/2 miles (N. E.) from Rathowen, on the river Inney and on Lough Dereveragh, and on the road to Granard.....
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The R. C. parish is co-extensive with that of the Established Church; the chapel is at Boherquil.
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Shane
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The chapel in Street is also called St. Mary's. The same parish priest ministers to both - see link I sent you- so you only have to make one contact. Happy Hunting! PM
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sorry pm for cross posting,
I didnt notice that your earlier link already included details of the chapel in Street
Shane
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Hi Emer
That's good Father Earley being the same Priest for the Rathowen and Street. I will give him a call at the beginning of the week. He might be willing to help I can only ask.
Isobel
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Looking back at this earlier post, I am very confused Its James who is the problem: 25 in 1901 to 46 in 1911. Brigid is 74 and 60, which is ok. Did a search and can't find any other possibles in any county for Michael and Brigid in 1901?
For reference here's the family in the 1911 census in the townland of Russagh (as in the title of this thread)-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Westmeath/Rathowen/Russagh/882056
Looks like Bridget and some of the children in 1901 census but Michael's not listed-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Westmeath/Rathowen/Russagh/1779314
Nice pic of church
http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/niah/search.jsp?type=record&county=WM®no=15303008&print=true
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Hi Emer
I noticed the differences in the ages between the 1901 and the 1911 Census too. The 1911 census is definitely them as my grandfather Michael a visitor from Scotland is there too. I can't understand why Michael wasn't on the 1901 Census unless he was visiting Scotland at the time??
I found on the Scottish Census records that there was the same problem, I think for what ever reason people didn't tell the truth about age and especially in Scotland, where they were born.
I'm hopeful I will find something out from the emails I sent. I'll keep you posted.
Isobel
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Ages are often wrong and vary more than 10 years from one census to another, especially amongst people who are illiterate or semi-illiterate.
Have you searched the 1901 census for Michael McGovern using just his initials? people in institutions are not listed by name and if he was in a hospital, workhouse, etc. he'd be listed that way.
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Hi,
Thanks for your reply
No I didn't try looking in the 1901 under the inital, but will try it now and post if I find anything. Thanks for that, it's something I would never have thought of.
Isobel
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Hi
Nothing with just the initial. :( Also checked the Scottish and English Census and he's not there either. The only other thing I can think of is may be he was in America at that time as he definitely had one or two children living there. ?
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Hi Isobel,
There is always the possibility that he was just in another house on the night of the census and got overlooked, or the form was never collected.
He was a farmer and may have been escorting cattle to Liverpool as was the custom of the time, - the James in 1901 is in the cattle drover trade, and they used to literally walk from Mullingar to the docks in Dublin then..
I think you have several good lines of enquiry left:
- the parish priest, locals and local historians in Rathowen.
- the newspaper archives for Lorenzo who gets 90 hits in the
irishnewspaperarchives site.
- the valuation books, but you need to do those in person in Dublin - so
hope the lotto comes up soon for you!
http://www.valoff.ie/Research.htm
- the Us Immigration and Naturalization Lists on Ancestry, and the US
1881 census on familysearch.org or The Irish Emigration Database (IED).
[Perhaps some kind rootschatter could offer more advice on where to look, exactly for McGoverns from Street Rathowen or Russagh 1860 to 1912 - to cover any trips Mchael or his children may have made]
- there is one family tree on Ancestry with Michael and Brigid in it, owned
by a Fiona descended from John in Scotland, no further back than
you have already. (You probably have this one!}
Looks like Lorenzo was posted to Africa after he left Ireland. I am sure he would have had a good obituary in the Southern Cross Newspaper in Buenos Aries.
http://books.google.ie/books?id=fdTjAAAAMAAJ&q=Lorenzo+McGovern&dq=Lorenzo+McGovern&hl=en&ei=sAcFTfTtD8T2sgaTwZH_
I found their archive and their staff very helpful in the past.
http://www.tsc.com.ar/notacomp.php?id=1014
http://www.tsc.com.ar/portada.php
http://books.google.ie/books?id=fdTjAAAAMAAJ&q=Lorenzo+McGovern&dq=Lorenzo+McGovern&hl=en&ei=sAcFTfTtD8T2sgaTwZH_
[The Irish Emigration Database is a computerised collection of primary source documents on Irish emigration to North America (USA and Canada) in the 18th and 19th centuries. It contains a variety of original material including emigrant letters, newspaper articles, shipping advertisements, shipping news, passenger lists, official government reports, family papers, births deaths and marriages and extracts from books and periodicals. The project is ongoing and is a vital research resource for historians, teachers, students and genealogists with interests relating to Irish emigration to North America.
Currently the Irish Emigration Database is available through the Centre for Migration Studies, the Public Records Office Northern Ireland (PRONI) and in Northern Ireland libraries through the Local Studies Departments and public access terminals in the branch libraries.] Sorry if I am giving you info you already have! PM
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Hi Emer
wow, how amazing are you? thanks a million for all this info. No, I haven't seen the tree on Ancestry, will need to take a look. I will check out all the leads you gave me.
Still waiting to hear back from my emails.
Will definitely keep you posted.
thanks again,
Isobel
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Hi Emer
Can't find the tree belonging to Fiona on ancestry. You have me intrigued. Can you give me any help in finding it. The only one that I see is Rosemary McGuire's tree and she's related to me through my Dad's side and we are working together on our trees.
Thanks
Isobel
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Hi Isobel,
I'll have a look and Pm that Fiona ref. Have just found a possible family on the Ellis Island database...will let you know if it checks out. PM
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Hi Emer
Great, thanks. I have sent an email to the Southern Cross people. Fingers crossed I'll get a reply.
Hope the Ellis Island ref is one of my lot
Thanks
Isobel
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Hi Emer
I have sent a letter to the Editor on the Longford Leader with some family info and also the info about my visit in 1970 aged 12. I really hope it rings a bell with someone I have given an email address for contact.
Will you be able to see it when they publish it?
Isobel
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Hi Isobel,
I don't get the Longford Leader!
I Suggest you Email a copy to The Westmeath Examiner as well - Rathowen is very near Mullingar.
I will PM you my email in case you want to send me a copy.
I have found a possible Thomas McGovern who may be yours,, but need to check further. The dratted button for enlarging the manifest won't open.
Thos. J.
Last Name: McGovern
Irish
Last Place of Residence: Mallengar
Date of Arrival: Jul 20, 1899
Age at Arrival: 18y Gender: M Marital Status: S
Ship of Travel: Majestic (1890)
Port of Departure: Queenstown Cork
Manifest Line Number: 0006
Later A Mary McGovern travels from Mullingar on the Adriatic arriving NY on 29 Sept 1911 with 2 children: Probably on Holiday.
First Name: Mary
Last Name: McGovern
Ethnicity: US citizen
Last Place of Residence: Mullingas, Ireland
Date of Arrival: Sep 29, 1911
Age at Arrival: 28y Gender: F Marital Status: M
First Name: Hugh
Last Name: McGovern
Ethnicity: US citizen
Last Place of Residence: Mullingas, Ireland
Date of Arrival: Sep 29, 1911
Age at Arrival: 9m Gender: M Marital Status: S
Ship of Travel: Adriatic
Port of Departure: Queenstown
Manifest Line Number: 0022
First Name: James Francis
Last Name: McGovern
Ethnicity: US Born
Last Place of Residence: Mullingas, Ireland
Date of Arrival: Sep 29, 1911
Age at Arrival: 3y 6m Gender: M Marital Status: S
Ship of Travel: Adriatic
Port of Departure: Queenstown
Manifest Line Number: 0021
No proof they are yours, but only McGoverns giving Mullingar. No Rathowen, Russagh or Street turn up. But bear in mind many McGoverns just got recorded as Ireland, no town given. When you get the baptisms you can see if that Thomas fits in age. The Mary could have been married to any of the 12 or not. The name Hugh is interesting though.
The Ellis island datbase is very tricky, but is free and the ships photos are wonderful. - but you will be able to search for the other siblings when you get the full dozen names.
ellisisland.org
PM
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Hi Emer
Once again a huge thanks, what wonderful information. I agree the name Hugh is interesting. I do know that my great Aunt who would be a neice of Thomas travelled with her husband to America from England to visit family there. Her name was Bridget McColl who would travel with her husband Donald, but that would be in the 40's.
I also sent a letter by email to the Westmeath Examiner.
It's really a waiting game now.
Isobel
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Had a look at the Ellis Island site the manifest wouldn't enlarge for me either.
PM your email I'll send you a copy of what I sent to the papers. Can you also send the link for the other tree on ancestry too.
Thanks
Isobel
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Try clicking on the scanned image itself rather than using the enlarger.
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Thanks for that tip. Isobel, i am so sorry - when I checked Ancestry that other tree was not yours! I have PMd you my email. PM
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Hi Emer
Thanks for the photograph. I have sent the copy of the letter to you email address.
Isobel
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Got it, thanks Isobel. I hope all your enquiries bear fruit! PM
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Hi Isobel,
I have sent you an email re Lorenzo McGovern. Have been able to establish that when he was Ambassador to Ireland he met with six descendants of Michael McGovern. He had said on arrival he hoped to do research on his origins. A photo of his children was in the Irish Examiner, and his aunt thought there was a resemblance to his brother. Her brother in Law, a highly placed Civil servant contacted the Argintine Embassy, and Lorenzo set of to meet the family at once. Some were living in Rathowen and some in Newtownforbes. One was the wife of a local National School teacher. I can't post the info here because some of these named relatives may be living. He was a regular visitor to Rathowen. If you forward what I sent you to the papers and the parish priest, I think you will have good results. Lorenzo confirms that his Grandfather - ie Michael Mc Govern of Russagh is buried in Rathowen. interestingly his wife was also of Streete origins.
Let me know if you get the email, as I also have found other interesting things about Lorenzo, including photos from the Newspapers...PM
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Hi Emer
I got your email, thank you and sent a reply. You are a STAR, where would I have been without all your hard work?
Thank you so much.
Isobel
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Hi Isobel,
Thanks for your PM
Glad you like the pictures of Lorenzo. He seems to have had a great feeling for family History! And pleased to hear you have been in touch with George in Argentina. I hope he can give you more info on Michael of Russaghs parents and grandparents.
Here is an old poscard of Rathowen village - no date, but I would guess c.1900...And an older one of Main St. Longford. Just to give a flavour of the time, as you have only been there for that one day as a child!
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Hi Everyone
Just to let you all know I have received emails from 3 people who are my realtives and they are all anxious to help me with my research. Once I get details I will post them to help anyone else who might be researching this family.
I want to thank everyone for their amazing help I couldn't have done it without you. Special thanks to Emer.
Watch this space. Take care.
Isobel
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Hi Isobel,
Delighted to be of help. just a footnote - I sent off those press cuttings of Lorenzo McGovern to SILAS who passed them on to someone who is researching Lorenzo. There may well be a new research project on him, which may include his Rathowen connections and how he supported so many schools etc. in the area. We were lucky that he was so interested in his family!Feel free to pass them on to Jeorge in Argentina.
PM