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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: Sal1525 on Tuesday 21 December 10 13:36 GMT (UK)
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Hello
Can anybody help to find the marraige details for the following people, please?
Elijah Arnold, B/-Chatham Kent England-emigrated to Canada-served in Canadian Army WW1-married . Possible abodes; Leeds. Kitley or Brockville Ontario_he was a Farmer.
Edward Merchant Arnold/Brown--- B/1887 Medway England-Emigrated to Canada----married Valerie/Valeria Pratt- Kitley or Leeds--Labourer, I think
Keziah Elizabeth Arnold-B/1901 Chatham Kent England_Emigrated to Canada_Brockville-Unsure of who she married.
Robert Welch/King(alias)-Adopted and sent to Canada-in the Canadian Army-B/ 1887 Medway Kent England_Wife Hannah-abode 55 Maskham, where that is I am unable to decipher-Foeoclto??
John Welch-adopted and sent to Canada-Ontario-B/ 1886 Holloway London
They are all siblings and half siblings. Parents are Robert Welsh, Elizabeth Merchant and Edward Arnold.
I will assume that the marraiges took place between 1910-1920 for the Welch`s and 1920-1930 for the Arnolds.
And if there are any death entries found for any of the afore mentioned you will make my xmas a special one.
From a hopeful member. Thankyou in advance
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Start with these:
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-100.01-e.php
Soldiers of the first World War
You can see attestation papers, and you can find if someone has died fighting,
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~onvsr/
Ontario Vital statistics project
You can see BMDs for Ontario from about 1865 – 1920’s
http://www.islandnet.com/ocfa/
Ontario Cemetery Finding aid
You can find names for all of Ontario, or search for Brockville
http://automatedgenealogy.com/
Automated Genealogy
1852, 1901, 1906, 1911
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There is a Canadian Marriage listed for Elijah Arnold. Father Edward Arnold and Mother Elizabeth Oliver ??? Elijah's address looks like Tillsonburg. Ontario. He was a bachelor. Occupation:- Labourer.
The Marriage took place Oxford County. Ontario - 5 th Sept 1918 to Hazel Crossett - Parents Lewis Crossett and Gertrude Price. Hazel was a spinster. Occupation Maid.
Regards
Sandra
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Hi
vbain; thankyou for the websites, I only had 2 of those. Still fairly inexperienced at working my way around the `compo` and sites, but getting there.
Sandra_Brilliant, your a star. That is the right Elijah. On checking the census info in Medway Kent I can see that Elizabeth, his Mother is with a Frederick Oliver. I shall see what I can dig up on Hazel.
Thankyou. Elizabeth Merchant had children with her first marraige to a Robert Welsh, he died, and some of her children were put into Dr Barnados. And then Adopted or emigrated to Canada.
She is then found to be living with a Thomas Brown and has a daughter Faith with him, before re-marrying Edward Arnold in Chatham Kent England-and as stated before, some of those children went to Canada.
Tracking these Canadian_` children` down is hard work, so I am chuffed that you found the marraige.
So, Tillonsburg, would that be in upper or lower Canada?
I am just going off to do some more digging, be back later, Thanks
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Tillsonburg is located in South- Western Ontario, Canada - In the southern end of the County of Oxford. Tillsonburg is bounded on the east by the Region of Haldimand-Norfolk and on the west by Elgin County.
http://www.fredsphoto.on.ca/tburg.htm
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Hello Sandra
Excellent. I have just been on Ancestry and put in the marraige info for Elijah and Hazel, and although not a worldwide member there, I was able to glean titbits of data. If not a WW member then one cannot view the records.
What I found coincides with your last post on Tillsonburg. Thankyou.
Hazels Father Lewis was born Oct 1870 Ontario-he married twice. Firstly to a Alberta Gertrude PriceB/1871 Ontario_D/ 24 Jul 1907 Oxford, Oxford County Canada. Married 1907
Then he wed Annie E Haycock B/May 1880-D/1946 Tills/
I have Lewis`s parents and Grandparents, and all of thier children down the lines_thankyou. Origins New York.
But, all of them are located in the census`, although I can only view the area that they are in,( but even so I have learnt a lot in a very short time on this site) in the areas of Elgin East; Norfolk: Oxford County; Bayham Township in Elgin_al of which is very useful and goes a fair way enabling me to picture where Elijah lived. As a Farmer I wonder would he have had his own land-or leased it-or was he really an Agricultural worker?
He surely must have had contact with his siblings, I am musing.
I am off to do some more digging.
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The birth entry for Hazel Crossett born 6 Oct 1896 Elgin County to Lewis Crossett and Alberta Price.
Family tree entry says the Mother Alberta Gertrude Price died 11 Jan 1900 Oxford. Ontario.
The spouse was given as Elijah Arnold. (no Sources) A private treee entry has 6 attached records.
A family tree entry for Keziah Arnold gives a death of 1984 Bockville. Ontario. Canada (No Sources - no married name). Also names Edward Merchant Arnold born 19 November 1894 n 3 Sliketts Hill, Chatham, Kent. Died 1971 n Smiths Falls, Ontario, Canada, Married to a Valerie Pratt 21 Sept 1915 Brockville, Leeds County, Ontario, Canada.
Valerie Pratt born 3 Nov 1884 in Elgin, South Crosby Twp, Leeds County, Ontario, Canada. Daughter of Squire Pratt 1844 - 1898 and Adaline Soper 1846 - 1896
Edwards parents given as Edward Maggie Arnold and Brown Arnold
Aplogises we crossed posted. ;)
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Hi Sandra
Great news on Hazels birth. Thankyou.
The Tree you are viewing is that on Ancestry?
I am off for my tea so I hope to catch you again later.
Big Thanks
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Kezia Arnold, 9, part of a group of Barnardo's children arrived on the Tunisian landing at Montreal bound for Toronto 5 Aug 1910.
Marriage for Elizabeth Arnold, resident of Brockville, 20, b. Scotland (mistake written beside this) underneath written Chatham, England, d/o Edward Arnold and mother not filled in. Married 2 Dec 1920 at Toronto, Ont. to Charles Edward Randle, 29, teamster, b. Meaford, Ont. s/o Thomas Randle and Mary Morris. Witnesses were Vida Lamb and Ellen Davis of Toronto.
There is a family ancestry tree which show Kezia Elizabeth marrying Charles Edward Randles with no marriage date and different parents for Charles (Edward Henry Randles and Ada M. Freeman). There is a marriage for Charles Edward Randles with Ada Freeman as mother on 20 Sep 1926 at Ford, Ont. to Marie Jenette Mannie. This Charles was born in Manitoba and both he and his spouse are RC. The owner of the tree might have mixed up records??
If you use the OCFA you will find that Kezia Elizabeth Randle (Arnold) is buried along with Edward Randle in Glen Elbe Cemetery Leeds County Yonge Rear Township. In the same cemetery is Muriel Irene Randle and Thomas Edward Randle (perhaps the father of Charles?).
Debbie
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Dearest Cosmac,
Thankyou for your reply,and effort in finding the information that you have found. I really appreciate it.
Fantastic news on Kezia. I didn`t know any of that, and it is possible that you viewed my tree on Ancestry, Nancey456? Yes, I am mixed up with records and dates and being unable to move my search on,so I posted here, you have all been a revelation to me, thankyou.
I was unaware that Keziah was in Barnados? How did you find the travel/ship details? For future reference for me.
She was 9 years old, I had assumed that Kezia had emigrated as an adult, now that her Mother was settled and married. No surprise then that her Mother was not on any paperwork at the time of Kezia`s arrival. So, I am wondering now that is she ,Kezia, the Elizabeth marrying Charles Randle? Using her middle name. Where would children be taken to upon arrival? Anyone have any ideas?
Charles is a Teamster_what is that occupation please? So I have the wrong parents for Charles then? Highly probable-the marraige entry which you have found is a very strong likelihood that shows it is the people I was trying so hard to find.
Thomas Rundle, do you think that is a spelling variation of the surname or a spelling mistake?
Would you mind telling me what is OCFA please? The Burial information for Kezia and Edward is fantastic findings for me , thankyou very much. I will add this new information to my tree and see what is revealed. And if I am lucky, as with Sandra`s input yesterday , I might yield good results.
I will chase up, as best I can, the other people that you found in the cemetary. Well done, Thank you.
I am off to dig some more.
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Hi
During my search for the Arnolds etc.. a nice lady gave me some details on the Dr Barnados connections and those that had emigrated, for which I am eternally grateful as I doubt that I would have put the pieces together ,so I have gone through the notes that I have from this lady.
Elizabeth Merchant , (Mother), was born in Leics about 1860, Father John. Somehow she was in Hammersmith London and had a daughter Ellen 1879 then she was in Chatham Kent and had another daughter Susanna 1880, unmarried. I think that these 2 girls are one and the same, as I find her in Derby with Robert Welsh and Susanna in the 1881c. but no Ellen. She marries Robert in 1882 Derby. These 2 records are the only ones that I have for Robert Welsh, Father Matthew. The 1866 birth record is not him.
Her son Robert is next born 1882? Sheffield_I don`t believe this to be true-just what she states in the letter to Dr Barnados when she puts Robert and son John B/ 1886 Islington, into care. 7 Feb 1890
No whereabouts known for Ellen and Susanna. Years later Ellen turns up in Derby married.
Elizabeth has another daughter Althenia B/1888 Millwall, she goes into care for a while ? and is re-named Obinia Welch but then turns up in Chatham named Althenia in the 1911c. Robert Snr dies, alledgedly Leics; Infirmary date unknown.
Then Elizabeth Merchant appears with Thomas Brown in Chatham and has a daughter Faith B/1882. Unmarried.
Next she has 6 more children with Edward Arnold and marries him in Chatham 1899. Edward is believed to have drowned in the River Thames.? As they both worked in and around the Dockyards I am wondering if Edward had an accident via work.
I realise that this is a lot to throw at you all, but it does appear to be a complicated story. I cannot track down Elizabeth and Roberts backgrounds before they married. And I am chasing the Canadian links. Plus a death entry for Edward.
Thanks for all your help that I have received so far.
I have found the WW1 records for Robert and Elijah in Canada. Robert uses the name King from time to time and has given a different DOB but states as being from Chatham. The lady that passed me the information in the beginning found a death, I now see, for Kezia 20 July 1984 Brockville Canada but no way of confirming wether it is correct or not?
I shall now go and see what else I can draw upon with the paperwork.
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Hello Cosmac
I have put your info that you found for me into the Ancestry tree.
I wanted to ask you which part of Montreal did Kezia arrive at?
I am coming across entries for Edward H Randles, Thomas Edward Randles and don`t know, as of yet if they are connected or not. I am thinking that they may be brothers. Both they and thier wives seem born/living in Ontario It may be that Charles married twice.
I definately have a lot more digging to do with Kezia and Charles.
I don`t know what become of John Welch-can`t seem to find anything on him. Elijah`s wife is only known as Hannah-any Ideas?
Catch you soon
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55 Markham St, Toronto http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc017/662640a.gif birth jan 28 1887
so he should be in the odd directory listing here: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Might%20Directories%20Ltd.%22
You can cross reference the address searches as well at the beginning of the directory
Keziah Elizabeth Arnold in 1911 census
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census11/View.jsp?id=92640&highlight=7
Although unrelated, there are many non-matched surnames on page who may also be home children on page Part of Lot 11 Con 2 so will list them as well for others searching
Rosie May Moreiss ... age15 & Jessie Dawson Jessie age 11 both in same household as yours
James Hall Thompson age 10 Thomas Thompson age 11 Rosie Fitzsommins age 10
Lilian Barbra Smith age 10 Daniel Downs age 11
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Hi JJ
Tremendous thanks to you. I have been viewing the sites that you posted_shall be most useful to me. I cannot believe how much info in such a short time you guys `n` gals have pulled up.
Really chuffed-thank you.
If anyone could work thier magic in locating John Welch I shall be over the moon.
Be back soon
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Hi JJ
I am fascinated by the tweety bird genealogy site. So far I have found Kezia and Edward Arnold.
The site is most interesting, had never heard of it before, located on your boards. Thankyou
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Hi
I have been able to track down photos for two of the ships that the children sailed in from Liverpool to Canada; Tunisian and Dominion at;
http://www.photoships.co.uk/
Great site if you are interested in Shipping, boats, etc...
The http://www.miramarshipindex.org.nz has a list of Marine sites.
I am off to try and find my elusive John Welch.
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Hi
I would really appreciate any help in tracing John and Robert Welch_I have been on several sites trying to find out what became of them after thier arrival in Canada ____Departing from Liverpool on the 17 March 1892.
I found Roberts WW1 Service Record_married to a Hannah. That`s it.
Any further input shall be greatly valued.
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You could try:
automatedgenealogy.com
It has 1901 and 1911.
I found several Johns and Roberts, but not together.
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I like to have as much information as possible posted for the BHC so am posting what I find...
Elijah in 1911 with the Allins http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census11/SplitView.jsp?id=136870
Edward Arnold in 1911 Kitley Leeds b. circa 1894 a domestic in the Mitchell household
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census11/SplitView.jsp?id=44237
Note that Valerie Pratt is with uncle a few households prior!
He seems to have been called Edwin, as was the father in 1901 census Chatham
ARNOLD, Edwin Head 1872
ARNOLD, Elizabeth 36 1865 Leicester
ARNOLD, Peaney 13 1888 Millwall London
ARNOLD, Charity 1892
ARNOLD, Edwin 1895
ARNOLD, Elijah 1896
ARNOLD, George 3 1898
ARNOLD, Tessiah baby ( I imagine Keziah) 1901
Are these other children accounted for?
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Hello vbain and JJ,
Happy New Year to you both. And thankyou for your replies.
JJ--- I did not know that Elijah was with the Allins. Smashing.
On his Army papers he states himself as being a Farmer and I am trying to access land records at present. He marries a Hazel Crosset 5 Sep 1918 Oxford County, Ontario. Her parents were; Lewis Crossett and Gertrude Alberta Price. Elijah says he is from Tillsonburg.
I have no death entry for either of them. The 1911c places them in Northumberland East, Ontario the 1901c Elgin East, Ontario.
I found an entry for Edward, residing with James and Marion Mitchell in Kitley twp, Leeds County (91) Sub-district/10 page 7, but didn`t see a V Pratt, what am I like !! I will shortly go back into the websites you have both posted and look much more carefully.
Her Father is Ebeneezer. Mother Adeline Soper. They married 21 Sep 1915 Brockville. Deaths??
Edward arrived in Port Halifax , 27 March 1892. Vessel Carthagian with a group of Barnados children.
You are right Edward Merchant was born Edwin as was his Father, he used both. Couldn`t find him in the Canadian Expeditionary Forces as I did so for Elijah and Robert Welch.
Peaney/Reaney?___1888 Millwall London_cannot find her at all and wondered if this was Elizabeth`s daughter Althenia? At one point Althenia does go into Barnados and is renamed Obinia Welch_she turns up in the 1911c, as Althenia in Chatham Kent. There have been no GRO vital records found for any of these girls names.
Faith Hope Charity Brown is Liz daughter from a previous relationship. Liked to be known as Charity-eventually ends up in Derby married to a Thomas Bagshaw, no death found for her yet.
George is William George who was admitted into Dr Barnados, no date, left in 1812_Canada?? Don`t know at the moment. Although I am currently chasing a few leads on him at present with a marraige in Kent.
Tessiah is Keziah. Born 4 March 1901 Chatham Kent____Departed Liverpool 28 July 1910 with some Barnados children. On the Tunisian Ship. Landing at Montreal Canada on 5 Aug 1910- curtesy of a link on JJs boards. Bound for Toronto
But, not knowing if she was in Barnados care or not I do recall, guess, that they did help to repatriate and reunite families.? She marries Charles Edward Randles 2 Dec 1920 Toronto.
She is buried along with Charles, both use thier middle names. in Glen Elbe Cemetary Leeds County, Younge, Rear Township. Possible death for Kezia is 20 July 1984 Brockville.
I cannot say for certainty that all the above findings are accurate at the moment.
John Welch, formerly Welsh, was put into Barnados in 1890 and sailed with his brother Robert to Port Halifax arriving 27 March 1892. He was Born in Holloway Islington 1886 and that is all I have for him.
All children have the same Mother. She has 12 children to date. Many seem to go on in life and give thier Mother a different surname or rename her altogether adding to the confusion in tracking thier respective records.
I am not expecting anyone to do my researching for me, but I am grateful in what you have already discovered and all of the useful websites given, which I shall follow up.
Thankyou.
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Happy New Year to all...another year blasted by...
Stomper, may I ask who the other 2 children were? are you a descendant, I imagine...?
The lack of information for the mother's surname is not unusual. I did not grasp my mother's surname until I was older, so imagine these little ones who have not heard the name in many years between emigration and their marriages, etc. You hadn't mentioned Welsh, I guess this is why I could not find their births?
Don't be afraid to tell us a lot about what you've already dug up as it saves time and also may find you descendants galore sometime in the future...
also as you have seen we like to have a well rounded informative thread on Home Children. They deserve it...
J.J. ( off to dig again for John & Robert Welch/ Welsh & King for the latter )
Elijah was wounded in 1915 ...was looking for some children for them when I found this.
http://sites.google.com/site/elginbranchogs/Home/ancestor-indexes/newspapers/st-thomas-newspapers/stj-1915-may-jun
If you could afford it, the full military file is available & would prove quite interesting I am sure. What you see online are signup agreements
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Here is another connection to '55 Markham St Toronto' .... it is the Attestation Form for a Cecil Wilson Anthony.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.02-e.php?image_url=http://data2.archives.ca/cef/well1/212234a.gif&id_nbr=11078
He would be the sister of Hannah Anthony who married a Robert Welch. The date page is missing from Ancestry but they have indexed the marriage as 09 Aug 1904. Robert's father is given as Robert Welch, no mother is given. Hannah's parents are Frank Anthony and Emily Marlatt. Added: no ages were given for the couple and they were both residents of Orangeville (near Toronto).
You can find Cecil and Hannah with their parents in the 1901 Census at this link ...
http://automatedgenealogy.com/
This couple had 3 children prior to the 1911 Census. Births are not yet available to the public beyond 1911 although a new year is added annually.
Bouncing screen .... will continue
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Continuing ...
The children ....
Frank Welsh (sic) b. 10 May 1905 to parents Robert Welsh and Hannah Anthony in Orangeville (this is near Toronto)
Emma Cecelia (?) Welch b. 01 Nov 1906 and died at age 4 days. She was b. in Orangeville to parents Robert Welch and Hannah Anthony
Myrtle Eveline Welch b. 29 Feb 1908 and died 17 Jul 1910. She was b. in Toronto to parents Robert Welch and Hannah Anthony.
It is my personal policy to not put causes of death on the public board for privacy reasons so I will send these by Personal Message.
Robert gives his occupation as Butcher on his Attestation Form .... he gives the same occupation for the birth of Emma.
Continuing again.....
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I think this is Robert's family in the 1911 Census as 'Walsh' .... click on split screen at the top to see the original image - it gives much more information than the transcription.
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/View.jsp?id=83401&highlight=12&desc=1911+Census+of+Canada+page+containing+Hanah+Walsh
If your local library subscribes to Ancestry Library Edition you should be able to access the original images of the marriage, births and deaths I posted earlier. (also available through ancestry.ca or the World Wide sub)
I have had no luck with John to this point.
Re deaths: Ontario deaths are only available to the public up to about 1936 and most of your family members probably lived beyond this time. Thus you will need to seek your info from other sources such as newspaper obits.
You asked a Q about Montreal early in the thread ... Montreal is a port city in the Province of Quebec. Once landed, folks usually then travelled by train to their ultimate destination.
Polarbear :)
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Reply # 4 .....
I forgot to mention something about the 1911 Census I posted earlier for Robert 'Walsh'.
I noted that he gave an immmigration date of 1906 whereas you have Robert and John on a ship in 1892. I'd like to add that from my own family experience with the 1911 Census in particular there seems to have been some confusion about what that question meant and my family put the year they moved into the house they were at when the census was taken. The 1906 date would go with a move from Orangeville to Toronto prior to the birth of Myrtle so I wouldn't count this family out based on that info alone.
Hope this Robert and family turn out to be yours :)
Polarbear
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Note that areas in Orange are probably not the right family
Well done, P.B....I got involved with life and started the New Year with a defrosted freezer and a decent meal for the family, but didn't get back to the fellows!!! Yes father was also Robert
A John Welch b. London England, changed to Welsh, married to a Clara? Living Stratford birth July 1 1885
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc017/667659a.gif
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.01-e.php?&id_nbr=305911
still looking through more cef...will add to this reply if I find any more
Found no others... and no luck finding him on census...
Happy New Year to all
Looked in CARDWELL since marriage witnesses were in Mono....
a Robert Welsh in 1901 a domestic, date is close.... age is off and says born Ont.
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census/ViewFrame.jsp?id=32888&highlight=3
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Thanks J. J. and Happy New Year :).
Strange that John's name was overwritten as Welsh when he clearly signed his name as Welch.
I have found a marriage for a John Welch to a Clara Adams but he gives his parents as John Welch and Emma Munroe. No way to know if this Clara is the one in the CEF papers though.
Polarbear
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Hello Polar Bear and JJ.
What absolute stars you both are. I am choked up.
I deeply appreciate your time and efforts put into my searches.
I am astounded with all the info found by all the Volunteers. Thankyou.
Shall take 10 mins out, still blown away by all that you have found, in need of a cuppa.
Be back soon.
Warm Regards
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Hello,
This will be a bit long winded, sorry, feel free to throw any questions at me, to try and explain where I am coming from;
I started using a `Compo`-laptop for the first time last Jan; in order to begin family searches-made many mistakes but learning all the time_hooked now. Still cannot upload , copy and paste etc.. I shall overcome these shortcomings this year. No printer-not ever.
Currently posted on the Tech pages here and learning a great deal, before I purchase anything this month. Really pleased with the help pages here on rootschat. So, I write out everything by hand, don`t mind, but time consuming. My next job, after this post, is to copy out all of this board, so that I can analyze it all and post my answers and next questions.
I have only had to search in England, until now. I am an Arnold descendant.
Edwin (Edward ) Arnold married Elizabeth Merchant 17 May 1899 Chatham Kent.
Previously she was married to Robert Welsh 20 Feb 1882_Derby
In 1891 Liz was living with Thomas Brown.-Chatham, Kent
The 1911c she is living with Frederick Oliver. Chatham Kent
Elizabeth Merchant uses many aliases herself.
The children, date range, 1879_1904 when Arthur Thomas Arnold(Thomas) was born. He was sent to live with Charity Brown in Derby.
The children are actually Brown, Arnold and Welsh surnames. But the Barnados letter states thier aliases as the above and Smith, Mcarthy-adding to the difficulty of tracing them.
This same letter stated that there was a James Welsh_no further details for him at all.
Places of abode range vastly, many of which cannot be matched with the childrens place of birth that Liz stated for them,.
Searching for this family is fairly new to me. I have gleaned the odd detail from peoples trees where I can, there was one contact made on Ancestry, which was not very useful ---- due to an individual, being sought, a distant marraige into the family and no further data available by the contact.
Another lady whom I have had contact with, had the details of the Barnados letter, but has had the same problems as me. This is not a 3rd party search.
A lot of clarification and new information is from all of you terrific volunteers here. Amazing!!
Sandra found the marraige, and birth details for Hazel and JJs Tweetybird site came up with fruitful data for Keziah and Edward, plus the names of the ships that they would have sailed on.
And I ,not being a bystander here, chased up the data for the ships and photos_didn`t see one for the Carthagian. Put all of the info gathered here on my tree and was able to glean a bit more on Ancestry. Not a Worldwide member so I cannot `see` all the data.
Cosmac came up with the Marraige and Keziahs arrival in Canada.
Vbain has provided me with some useful links, which I have followed up.
The Army Records are from this board and Jjs Canadian Resources threads.
All the info here has been very fresh and reinvigorating, after 2 solid months of obssesive highs and lows, truly cannot thank you all enough.
And Polar Bear_stunning work, had to pick myself up off the floor.
JJ I shall follow up on the link of Elijahs war Injury.
All data collected has been from this sites pointers and links. Thankyou.
Stunning work.
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Hello Everyone,
I have just finished writing out this board. Am still amazed at what info has been found in such a short time, thankyou to all of you who are contributing to my search.
Here are the Births of all the kids, now that I finally have my paperwork in order;
Ellen Welsh -B/ 7 Feb 1879 B/ Hammersmith London__according to Barnados_no evidence found to support this.
James Welsh no details, alias Smith
Susannah Welsh-B/ 9 June 1880 Chatham Kent___nothing found in the birth indexes or Medway City Ark to support this.
Robert Welsh-B/ 8 Dec1882 Sheffield_No proof as of yet. On his Army Attestation Papers he says DOB is 28 Jan 1887 Chatham
John Welsh-B Holloway 1887-(Barnados)_I found this birth/CR entry 2 January 1886 St Barnabus, Holloway, Islington London. Parents. Robert and Elizabeth
Althenia/Reaney/Peaney_1888 Millwall or Notting Hill London_Only a 1911 census entry is found for Althenia.
Faith Hope Charity Brown-B/13 March 1892 Chatham_Correct
Elijah Arnold B/- 10 Feb 1896 Chatham_Correct
Arthur Thomas Arnold B/ 10 Sep 1904 Chatham-Correct
Edwin Merchant Arnold B/ 19 Nov 1894 Chatham_Correct
William George Arnold B/ 1 Sep 1898 Chatham-Correct
Keziah Elizabeth B/ 4 March 1901 Chatham_Correct
I think that is it. Need to sign off now.
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ack you poor thing...I see the dilemma in searching for this family ...Susanna in 1881
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/Census/household_record.asp?HOUSEHOLD_CODE=1881BR_3477680&HOUSEHOLD_SUB=2
Parents on a previous "subset" have never noticed this method of listing before...
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/Census/household_record.asp?HOUSEHOLD_CODE=1881BR_3477680
Not unusual for parents of home children to have not been able to afford to register their children...it becomes part of our heartache when searching.
Sorry that the John I found may have not worked out...although telling big fibs was sometimes part of the story, so must keep in mind that these were young children who felt abandoned, so may not have wanted or been able to remember parent's names. We have to work hard to prove and also disprove what we find due to this...Also some of the very young ones were adopted and names changed, so those may never be found... in England or Canada.
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http://www.GenesReunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/trying_to_find/welsh/thread/1251609
Looking at Susannah I see your thread from another site....i see why I didn't see a marriage before 1881...eek Ellen AND James were also born to this young couple before the census?...they were so young to have three children by age 19?? altho, yes, not impossible...
Are we looking for Susannah, James & Ellen or have you traced them? and a Barnes marriage in there as well...
Nevermind, I know you didn't add all this for a reason, but as I said it all helps to locate the missing...
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Hello JJ,
Thankyou for your quick replies.
The 1881 census is the only census that I come across for Elizabeth and Robert together as a family. They are unmarried here. And yes it is unusual for Susannah to be listed further down the page.
By all accounts Elizabeth has Ellen and Susannah before her marraige in 1882-Derby. I don`t know if they are Roberts children or not. But they are down as being Welsh surname, can find no birth records for either of them. No evidence of James.
She has Robert in 1882 and John in 1887. That is a fair gap, don`t you think.
But , they could have well been a young couple that decided to live together, passing themselves off as married.
So, going by the births of the children, they lived in Sheffield, Derby, Chatham and London.
The Barnados letter says that Robert died in Leicester Infirmary, no specific date. On the Leicester boards here, Mike was able to confirm that there was no death for Robert in the time span of 1887-1890__Johns birth and the year he and Robert were put into care.
Where are the girls? and the 1891 census I have as of yet not been able to find Robert and am continuing to trawl through all the areas that they lived. He could have run off_but surely would then appear in some record or other down the line. No, I think he died, and possibly, if destitute Elizabeth put the children into care.?
His Father is Matthew Welsh as is stated on the marraige certificate.. Robert born abt 1860 Leeds. Not the 1866 entry found as this Robert is traced via marraige, census etc to his death.
Ellen is found much later via her marraige to Thomas Bagshaw and then lives in Derby.
I was not aware that they had to pay to register the births of thier children, thankyou for that snippet.
It is quite a sad story for the children to have borne, but I hope to find a pleasant end to thier tales. What is harder to believe is that some of the Arnold children were in care.
And I only was made aware of that on this thread, thankyou. I do take your point about adoptions and the children probably not being able to remember, or not want to, thier parents, and name changes..
Yes I did have a posting on Genes site. which is finished now. The helpers did thier best to come up with data and were quite successful, but unable to help with Canadian searches. I am very pleased with the results that they achieved. I told you I had obssessed over this family.
There is no Barnes Marraige and no relationship found with a Barnes. It is one of Elizabeths aliases. Which she undertook on leaving London, perhaps for a fresh start. I noted on Google that there is a small village the other side of the Bridge bordering Hammersmith, where Ellen is claimed to have been born. That village is known as Barnes.??
I have much more to add on following up on the links that you have all posted here, but I am bushed now and shall be back on line tomorrow.
Thankyou JJ.
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:-\ OOps sorry... I have no idea where I got that that they had to pay a fee? Perhaps because there was a fine if one didn't so I probably assumed this all this time. Dopey me for assuming...and apologies, as this is not something I knew/know for certain .
Was there another Robert Welsh & Elizabeth as well?
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/IGI/individual_record.asp?recid=100296601648
There is a registered birth for a Florence Isabel Welsh March Quarter 1888 Medway vol.2a p.617 The same age as Peony?
did you check out this birth Dec Q. 1879 for a Susanna Merchant / W. Ham vol.4a p.93
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Hi Jj,
No need to apologise. So registering births in the 1800s was not much different than today, where one would be `addressed` if the birth is not registered within a time limit.
I have `assumed` much with the family we are reviewing/searching, only to be proved wrong etc,...
Yes, I have come across other Robert`s and Liz`s in this search, I follow the ones I find through the records, until I can , at the very least eliminate them. I will check out your link after posting this message.
Tomorrow I will have more time to go through MCArk, to see if there is a CR? entry for Florence, interesting idea.
I am now going to check out the Susannah that you have found. It has crossed my mind that Susannah and Ellen are one and the same person in my searches for them.
Thankyou for your help, much appreciated.
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Hi
Have just finished copying out the info for John Welsh/Welch from your links here, which I visited.
Highly interesting __the Attestation Paper for John, looks promising. Thankyou.
I am at present initiating a search for the John and Clara that you discovered to see where it leads .
John was CR/ at St Barnabus Church, Hornsey Rd, Islington, London 2 Jan 1886 so could well be born 1885.
On the Attestation Paper, the previous Service Record were for the Regiments; West Kent, Artillery and the 28th Perth Reg; are they all in Canada? If I can trace these records I should be able to learn more about this John that you have found, any ideas welcomed?
This makes this John 14/15 years of age when he first enlisted for Military Service-was this common? I know it happened in WW1
So, the age could apply to the John that I am looking for. The way in which his surname has been `handled` intrigues me even more, both applied to my John.
It was Barnados that changed his name from Welsh to Welch and I had assumed that this would have been carried out officially and legally, to help the child in whatever way they could. i.e new identity, but apparently not so.
I need to go and carry out some more digging. Catch you all again.
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Did you look into the marriage of a Matthew Welsh ( Christiana Price/ Ellen Taylor on page)1858 MarchQ. in Hunslet district (covers a portion of Leeds) There is a John born Hunslet 1862...just in case he (#1 husband Robert) was using a middle name? Was hoping to find some christenings online for actual couple but unsuccessful. This middle name thing happened with my family, and it makes searching a real pain...so thought I'd point out middle name use ( like Edward / Edwin ) in case you hadn't enough junk to sort through (Just kidding, hope this doesn't throw you off too much)
Found this on the tweedybird site:
WELCH Robert, age 13, 4 years in Canada, with Mr William H Graham of Stayner. ( that's in Simcoe)
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tweetybirdgenealogy/jul1896.html
so by 1901 his contract would have been finished with Graham...They were indentured to age 18 if you can believe it. Just children and had to sign a contract of such a nature. I hope Graham was at least a decent man... ... but little wonder these young ones had little or no memory of parents when they were put under such stress to work at an age they should have been playing. At least some families were kind and sharing, but some BHC had it pretty tough, at a dollar a month pay.
Seems the John Welch (Clara Adams) were from Stratford, so probably the right fellow from the CEF signup...
( marriage of a son, b. Gravesend England 1902) http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~maryc/perth1924.htm
p.s. re: Polar Bear's marriage find seems to rule them out...however...although he says he was born England I see no marriage of a John Welch/Welsh (phonetic surname search on) to an Emma Monroe on the freeBMD, and removing forenames, no Munroe/ Monroe/Welch /Welsh combinations either....
and daughter born St Geo.H. Sq. 1908 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~maryc/perth1927.htm
Go figure the birth of the son is registered in England and Ontario? Thomas Lewis Welch
Oct 26 1902 McKillop Township, Huron, Ontario, Canada [John Welch & Clara Adams] also reg DecQ. Gravesend
arghhh, how can we prove/disprove this to be John?
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hello JJ,
Sterling work. Massive thankyou to you.
I have copied out your message. Don`t have much time to reply at the moment, I have got to shoot off to work-covering a shift- but I have a day off tomorrow and shall view the links that you have posted. So sorry.
Best Regards.
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This appears to be the family in the 1911 Census
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/SplitView.jsp?id=94333
It says Clara and the children are all b. Ontario but .... this appears to be the family of John coming to Canada in 1908 ...
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/passenger/001045-119.02-e.php?sisn_id_nbr=4989&page_sequence_nbr=1&interval=20&page_id_nbr=46289&&&&&&&&&PHPSESSID=34og6lu34ukp5d0e8bf3b1v4c6
There appear to be appropriate birth registrations for all the children in FreeBMD as far as I can tell.
The Ontario birth reg for Thomas Lewis Welch was a late one, in 1935. Young Charles should be the only child b. Ontario .... his registration gives the mother's maiden name as Clara Smith (As an aside, it was an uncle Charles Smith who signed the late registration papers for Thomas). Very strange goings on in this family ....
Bouncing screen, will continue ....
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I think the West Kent Regiment and Artillery John Welch has on his CEF form were most likely in England. Googling West Kent Reg Canada only turns up hits related to the UK so far. Neither do I think Canada has an Artillery, although someone may correct me on either point. There was a Perth Regiment based in the area John was living in .... I believe it was a Militia unit. There is info about it on the internet.
Tough call, this one. The John with Clara and family has a birth date of 1878 in the 1911 Census which would make him a number of years older than 'your' John would be expected to be but we all know folks tell porkies occasionally.
On the other hand, your John was only 6 when he arrived in Canada and I wonder if he may have actually been properly adopted and took the name of the family he was placed with. There wouldn't be a formal paper trail but I wonder whether if you were to write to the Barnardos folks they might at least tell you who he was placed with? They might send you other info too ... you never know.
Continuing....
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Yes, polar bear, you could be right, that he may have been adopted out as he was so young...There really should have been more rules back then in favour of the children! Thanks for sticking with the thread and trying to follow through with searches...Perhaps some descendants might see this all one day and fill in some blanks....J.J.
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Ancestry is going offline for maintenance shortly so I will have to leave things for now. Back tomorrow.
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Hello JJ and Polar Bear
Thankyou for your posts. And all of your efforts, warmly appreciated.
My John, it is said, was Born 1886 Holloway London. I found a CR/ to support this and his date of birth was mentioned in the letter from Barnados.
So your John is a fair few years older. And he would then , perhaps , have grown up in England to work in the afore named Regiments. Also, to have married and had children in England. My John sailed in 1892 from Liverpool. What do you think? I will follow it through further, tomorrow, even if that is only to eliminate him and Clara. I am open minded about them, as this family, mine, changed names, places of births etc..as well as using different aliases.
Barnados wants a lot of money to release further details. I have worked out that they or Elizabeth Merchant altered either the DOBs and places of births for the Welsh children.
I have chased up the links that PolarBear posted for the Passenger Lists, which I was unaware of and how to access them, so thankyou for that PB. Very interesting and shall be going through them more thoroughly for the other children. I wasn`t able to find the ship Carthagian_so perhaps this was a spelling mistake and the ship is the Corinthian.
I came across this site for Home Children and didn`t know if both of you were aware of it ;
http://jubilation.uwaterloo.ca/~marj/genealogy/homeadd.html
Bouncing screen. Shall continue
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Hi. contd..
Any idea how to change the title of my thread please, I have retyped in the title box, saved, pull up the screen and it goes back to the original title.?
We have the correct details for Elijah,.but require a death for him, but is that correct that Canada don`t release the data until a certain time has passed, do I have that right?
When I viewed the Elgin Newspaper Archivesfor Elijah I also found an Earnest Pratt, wounded soldier and have filed that away as he could possibly be related to Edward , wife Valerie Pratt. Another site that I am working my way through.
I see on the Canadian Archives that when children arrived in Canada they were initially sent to distributing homes i.e Fairknowe in Brockville_maybe Keziah and Edward were placed there in the first instance--Would that depend upon wich Institution or Agency that sent them to Canada, as to where they were sent? And then sent on to different Farmers in the area, surely that would be Juveniles over 14 years-slave labour or what-a Dollar a month. Jeze poor kids. Were there other Distributing Homes?
The British Isles Family History Society of Greater Ottawa are taking steps to create a database for Home Children Passenger Lists__should anyone need to know. I shall check this out further.
We have the right details for Edward. The chap that I had contact with, briefly for the Pratt info that I was able to glean from him, he said that there are 21 Arnolds in the Le High Cemetary, in the Cemetary Publications for Kitley but couldn`t tell me anymore and as I didn`t know if I had the right people at the time I didn`t chase that up, where would I get hold of such a list please?
I have since found another link, off a persons tree, that states a Keziah Randles buried in Glen Elbe Cemetary along with Edward Randles. And that there is a Muriel and Thomas Edward Randles buried in the same cemetary-how do I chase that up in the Canadian Records?
Be back soon.
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Hi, me again.
Picking up on what PB posted about the 1911c. In regards, possibly to the name of Smith;
Children that were named in Dr Bs letter but not admitted;
Faith Hope Charity Brown, alias Arnold. Mother Elizabeth Brown formerly Barnes. Faith as living in a home in Dorset???
James Welch, alias Smith.
Ellen Welch , alias McCarthy.
Obinia/Althenia Welch, alias Smith.
Keziah , Mother is down as Merchant formerly Barnes.
The childrens Mother is Elizabeth Merchant-maiden name.
I really do not know where Smith, McCarthy and Barnes come from.
What become of James, Peoney/Reaney or Susannah, haven`t been able to find out, but right now concentrating on the Canadian links.
Confusing isn`t it. Be back on line tomorrow.
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Hi stomper
It is our pleasure to be of assistance and particularly rewarding to be involved in the search for families of Home Children.
I can't answer all your Qs but I expect J.J. will be able help with some of them also.
Re: John
You know for certain where and when he was born. Now then, if we assume that the info given by Clara's John on his CEF form is correct, by subtracting his years of service we get a date of first sign-up of approx 1898-99. Your John w/h been only 12 or 13 at this point (if my math is correct) and I think w/h had to travel back to England. The apparent eldest child belonging to this family, Emily Jane, was born about 1898. Again, your John w/h only been about 12 or 13. John and Clara's children all seem to be correctly registered as Welch in England which basically precludes Clara having had them with another man even though the couple only married after they came to Canada.
You, of course, must make up your own mind about this John but I personally think he is simply too old to be your John, given the information we seem to have about him. His daughter Emily married as 'Walsh' in 1915 at the stated age of 19 (perhaps wasn't quite this old though).
Bouncing screen, will continue later ....
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To answer a few more Qs .....
This link is related to Kitley. You could try contacting the librarian and inquiring about the cemetery. I didn't turn up Le High Cemetery directly using google
http://www.elizabethtown-kitley.on.ca/siteengine/activepage.asp?PageID=32
You can google Glen Elbe Cemetery for info to contact them directly.
Death records in Ontario are protected to about 1936 with a new year added annually.
I believe the 1921 Census will be released in the next year or two and may provide some good info for you.
There are various websites related to Kitley coming up on google .... you might find something of interest among them .... google Kitley Township - too many to list here.
No idea how to change a title .... you could look under 'how to use RootsChat'. J.J. might know or you could PM one of the moderators.
Continuing ...
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Re: Robert
Although the age of Robert in the CEF papers does not quite match what you know about him, it is possible that he lowered his age to be accepted into the army. You do have a good connection between him and the Anthony family with the mutual address of 55 Markham St in Toronto gien by him and Cecil Anthony. I think the correct marriage for him has been found. He does give his father as Robert Welch ... really most unfortunate that he has no mother listed.
If he remained in Canada the 1921 Census will hopefully help with him. Births in Ontario are only available to 1911 at the present with a new year added annually. The 1921 will have additional surviving children. There is no marriage for young Frank available yet but with time, one might appear. Marriages are currently available to 1926 (I think) with a new year added annually.
As with John, it will be up to you to weigh the evidence and decide if he is 'your' Robert.
BTW, did you know that you can order WW1 military files from the Canadian Government?
That's it for now
Polarbear
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I wrote this earlier today, but was not able to get onto rootschat...happening often lately...
Yes, wasn't paying attention to the age of the daughter, their first being born 1898...Seems we must let that search go, and hope some info comes to light on him over the years... As P.B. said he might have been adopted....
This information was given you in a previous reply as well:
They are found here as RANDLE reference number L&G-81-1-1 applies to all in there,
Edward and Keziah Elizabeth Glen Elbe Cemetery, Leeds (Yonge Rear twnshp)
also Muriel Irene and Thomas Edward ...and also a Jane ARNOLD you may want to inquire about, as the only one other than Keziah's surname cross-reference
http://www.islandnet.com/ocfa/search.php
Now write to this address with your inquiry,
Leeds & Grenville Branch, OGS
P.O. Box 536
Brockville, Ontario, Canada.
Canada K6V 5V7
inquiries for cemetery lookup are 2.00 each....or free if you ask on the site, I think...
Yes there were several receiving homes in Ontario & other parts of Canada. There was one in Stratford, ( not a Barnados tho) which was one reason that John clicked for me...but thanks to P.B. for setting it straight, I believe we can rule him out, due to the dates of children born...although it was strange to have so many coincidences in common...Never sorry to delve in just in case, though... J.J.
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Hello Polar Bear and JJ,
Thankyou wholeheartedly for your input.
Yes, I think we could rule out this John_but no harm in trying, well done to you both. I have learnt more about the Census and Passenger Lists in Canada-so, not a waste of time.
In regards to the Welsh children, Johns DOB is the only one , as of yet been proven, backing up Dr B, Liz and the CR/. The other children are a mystery to me at present.
And, Polar Bear, you are thinking along the same lines as me, with the possibility that John may have returned to England or moved on elsewhere. The possibility of adoption and name change is a big reality here, but I will keep the data found and file it away. And I had not considered the idea that Clara`s children might not be his, so that is on hold for the moment.
I think that you have found the right info for Robert, Elijah and Keziah and thier respective marraiges.
I will write to the addresses for more info, thankyou.
I will follow up all the links that you have both posted yesterday and let you know what I can come up with.
I am pleased that I am now straight on what info is available, BMD and Census, time scale and forthcoming releases_yes, the 1921 census should yield more results. Thankyou JJ.
And E. Merchant, thier Mother, is addressed with many variable surnames, so I don`t think if she was listed on documents etc.. it would help too much.
Anyway, off to do some more digging.
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Contd...
The children that emigrated are;
Robert Welsh/Welch-- 17 March 1892 from Liverpool
John Welsh/Welch---- 17 March 1892 ^^^^
Edward Merchant Arnold---21 Feb 1907^^^^^^^
Elijah Arnold--- 12 Sep 1907 ^^^^^^^
Keziah Elizabeth Arnold-- 28 July 1910 ^^^^^^
Robert also used the name King in Canada. As stated on his Army Papers. Could that be who adopted or fostered him?
Be back later
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Oh, so that was where the surname King came in, I completely missed it in my original peek, as i was bent on looking for the address, etc. Searching his regimental number he does not have any more signups under the name King, though...
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.01-e.php?&id_nbr=288718
As Polar Bear has suggested, you may want to order the full file on Robert as he is proven by her finds to be the right one! See the phrase in the link "How to consult a file on-site or order a copy of the complete file" unfortunately we haven't anyone who can look at the files for you, so they would need to be ordered. These aren't about the battles they were involved in, but are usually of a more personal nature, a mini will? his illnesses....He may or may not mention John in there, if he even knew of his whereabouts, and perhaps the surname King might be mentioned?
If you find some things of interest and worthwhile, then ordering Elijah's could be next, although it is unusual that he gives his father as next of kin rather than his siblings in Canada...??
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http://ogs.andornot.com/WebPubResults.aspx
Edward Arnold (stone F85 ) d. 1971 Leeds County South Elmsley Maple Vale Cemetery
Valeria (Pratt) Arnold same stone d. 1990
Reference numbers are LCGS- so you'll need to write to
Lanark County Genealogical Society
P.O. Box 512
Perth, Ontario, Canada.
K7H 3K4
or website http://www.globalgenealogy.com/LCGS/
If you look through those same results there are other Arnold surname who died earlier in century, but they are not in same plot...
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Been meaning to ask, how did you find out the year of shipping for the two Welsh/Welch boys, as they are not down as 1892 immigrants on the BHC database? I know it isn't complete, but I though that was for more recent searches...
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/home-children/001015-100.01-e.php
I looked again and you figured they came as Walsh?... How did you determine these to be yours for certain? There are passenger lists which may have that entry.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/home-children/001015-119.01-e.php?&id_nbr=36347
Party: Dr. Barnardo's Destination: Toronto, Ontario and Winnipeg, Manitoba
The part consisted of 303 children with Mr. Owen
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Hello JJ
Fantastic news on the Edward and Valerie burial plots. I guess I am going to be busy in the morning writing letters to the addresses that you have supplied. Ha, ha. Big thanks.
Arrival dates on the Tweetybird site and ancestry rootsweb freepages, off the top of my head.
Now I am off for my tea.
Thankyou, well done.
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I believe this is the voyage of the 2 boys ... they are in the 4th group down.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/passenger/001045-119.02-e.php?sisn_id_nbr=8135&page_sequence_nbr=1&interval=20&page_id_nbr=102556&&&&&&&PHPSESSID=71b3532o6fnsteu61j6itadqq4
Arrival in Halifax 03 Mar 1892 en route to Montreal, then the addition of Toronto can be faintly made out. The problem with this particular passenger list is that it doesn't specifically state who is sending all these children plus numerous 12 years + folks to Canada and it is thus apparently missed off the Home Child list?
Re: Robert .... I wonder if his stating Chatham as his birthplace might have something to do with being moved there as a very young child and thus only remembering it as his home?
Re: John .... to tidy up a few ends even if he is apparenty not yours. I have not been able to find any marriages for either set of parents meentioned in the marriage cert of John and Clara. Nor have I yet been able to find the family in the 1901 Census UK although they s/b there somewhere, having not emigrated until 1908.
Continuing ...
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Stomper, a while back you wrote ......
And I had not considered the idea that Clara`s children might not be his, so that is on hold for the moment.
John and Clara's children seem to be properly registered as Welch which should make John their father. It appears John and Clara were living together without benefit of marriage and then decided to marry in Canada after all, for whatever reason.
This is all academic now since it doesn't look like this is your John but I just wanted to tie up the loose ends.
Polarbear
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Hello JJ and Polarbear,
Thankyou for your many emails. Which I have just finished copying down.
I shall very shortly be sitting with a nice cuppa and reading the entire thread.
A lot of info and new links and addresses to go through. Along with more intense searching of all the links found. Many new theories to digest.
You have all been great and your input valued. I am 5/6 steps behind you both in keeping up with the findings. So today I will catch up with everything and post here later or throughout this afternoon.
I will be back later, once again, thankyou.
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Hi
Have copied out all my postings and updated my paperwork. made out a paper tree for easier reference. I am now beginning to visit the links posted on this thread.
Just been on the islandnet cemetary finding aid site.
I know some of the burials/addresses have already been mailed here, thankyou, but I need to find my way around, so sorry if some info gets repeated.
Elijah and Hazel Arnold_, Elmdale Memorial Park, St Thomas, Elgin, Yarmouth Ref EL -520
Keziah Elizabeth and Edward at --Glen Elbe, Leeds, Yonge Rear, Ref L&G 81-1-1 Plus Thomas Edward Randle
Robert, John and Hannah Welsh/Welch_plenty of records come up for all of them, but as I don`t know where they were living at the time of thier respective deaths, I am unclear in regards to Townships etc..
But not saddened by it all, as I did find the results of interest. And that Le High Cemetary is in the Township of Kitley. Most handy site to know about. Thankyou.
I have also googled Kitley and Stayner, Simcoe and the info was very useful to me , I am understanding the Geography better and the types of Industries that were/are there.
Off to the next link
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Hi
Having great fun on the automatedgenealogy census pages.
Looking for Robert and John. This will be time consuming, not a complaint, so will chip away daily.
I found the Cardwell entry for Robert surname spelt Welsh. And was able to access the whole page and find the details of all of the McPheeters family. So, he is boarding with Duncan and Isabell McPheeters. If this is the correct one, I think so.
I hadn`t realised that New Brunswick is the Province. Kings-District. And Cardwell- subdistrict.
Is this where Robert takes the name King from? I wonder. It also states that he is from Scotland?
Not improbable to be made up, what do you think?
I am off for my tea and shall do some more digging later.
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Hi.
Just been viewing the Canada collections, finding my feet.
They have a photo there of a group of Barnados children. Unfortuneately no list for the children in the picture.
Searching for more info in the Military categories, haven`t came up with anything new yet.
Then visited the British Isles Family History Society at Ottawa, going back there shortly.
http://www.bifhsgo.ca and found another link to the Global Genealogy website. Booksellers etc..
Some books that might be of interest to some people;
British Home Children-Thier Stories compiled by the bifhs , published by Global Heritage Press. Paperback £ 19.40
Nation Builders, Barnados Children in Canada. By Gail H Corbett. £ 12.90
The Little Immigrants. By Kenneth Bagnell. £ 19.40
Off to view some more sites.
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Hi again,
Going back to the death of Edward Arnold in 1971 in Smiths Falls Ontario ....
This link for Canada white pages has only 2 Arnold listings for Smiths Falls. You might want to consider contacting them? Just enter 'Arnold' and 'Smiths Falls'.
Edit: can't get it to come up properly .... try googling Canada411.
Also, you could try googling for a library in Smiths Falls. The librarian might look for an obit for you although without an actual date it may be too timeconsuming for them to consider.
Polarbear
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Oops it seems to me that you haven't been looking at the url on each reply as we are giving you the censuses, and you are WAYYYYYYYYYY out of the Province for Robert as he is on ONTARIO. Although the dates differ and occupatons, it would seem Polar Bear may have found him in 1911, as the age and month for the birth of son Frank in May do fit the census entry, and because they were now moved tro Toronto, that entry seems to be correct...
However I cannot find them in the census timeframe Toronto directories, with him down as being a butcher, or at 55 Markham...I am guessing it was a lodging house, and so they perhaps moved when the jobs changed? Perhaps he couldn't always get a job as butcher, but still put it down as his trade... as I went through directories way back at the beginning of my searches & couldn't pinpoint...Not all the directories were working then, nor just now, so a pain to be certain ( persnicketty, as P.B. calls them)
Here is a Robert Welsh who is occupation butcher in 1921....Home is 484 Bloor west
http://www.archive.org/stream/torontodirec192100midiuoft#page/1432/mode/2up
The actual address ahows him living with a Hugh P. Donahue ( also a butcher) and an Elmer Kenna. They may all be renting a home, or renting from Hugh as he also is listed as major resident in 486 Bloor
http://www.archive.org/stream/torontodirec192100midiuoft#page/164/mode/2up
Just click on the picture to your left, and a larger version will appear to the right...then turn to your right and it's one of the ones in front of you, ( maybe New generation, altho supposed to be Webnology Solutions, must be old photo)) so they were 3 story dwellings back then. Probably didn't stay there long either...
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=uPk&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&q=484+Bloor+St+W+Toronto
55 Markham is in a cute little neighbourhood of houses...but it won't let me grab the url, so you'll need to sneak a peek yourself... ( yellow house w / oval glass in door)
ah, here it is, I typed the adress into the url myself and this worked just fine...oooog... "stuff" in the walkway from this view... :P
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=uPk&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&q=55+markham+St+Toronto
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My goodness, stomper, how did you make a connection between Cardwell and New Brunswick?
This is Robert with the McPheeters (what an unusual name) in the 1901 Census (link below). Cardwell district is near Orangeville, Ontario where Robert's first 2 children were born and I think he married there too? And, although the year of birth differs from the CEF form (I gave a possible reason earlier) there is only 1 day different in the actual date. It also says born Ontario but the info given is only as good as the person reporting might sometimes guess. Robert was young enough when he came to Canada to have lost any British accent and Duncan may just have assumed Robert came from Ontario if he didn't actually ask him.
Appears to me that this is probably the Robert who will shortly marry Hannah Anthony and join the CEF. Robert is a Domestic so w/b employed by Mr McPheeters as a farm hand. The Scotch origin may just have been assumed also since it matches the McPheeters. (I will hunt for an Ontario birth of a Robert Welsh/Welch anyway, just in case)
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census/ViewFrame.jsp?id=32888
Roll on 1921 Census .... it will hopefully be a big help with Robert.
Polarbear
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Hi,
You two are fantastic . Yes, I am way behind you, but I will catch up, honestly.
I will follow through PB with the advice you have given for Edward, Smiths Falls comes from the chap I had 2 mails with on Ancestry, he didn`t know any more as it was a very distant, distant link to his tree. And I haven`t been able to contact him since.
I have been looking at each link as they are posted, honestly, but as so much new info was coming through I wasn`t able to take it all in, (digestion problems now sorted,) but absolutely over the moon with all the findings, Thankyou.
I began a thread yesterday on the West Yorkshire look-up board, to try and find Robert snrs birth. I have a thread on the Leics look-up board for his death and Elizabeths birth, .
And I shall be looking to order Attestation Papers for Robert and Elijah, as you said JJ, next week, allowing myself time to catch up, and make sure that I have the right people before doing so.
So, did I come across the wrong Robert in the census for Cardwell?
I will look at the new links you have both posted, yesterday, this evening, off round my Mums, she is not too well and my partner has the flu.
Jobs---I can well imagine that it was a situation of using people to complete a task and the `Hire m Fire m` Brigade in place, and perhaps having to move round with a job or looking for work. Not forgetting the Depression Era that was to come.
Couldn`t have been easy for anyone of that decade. Need to go now, back later
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Hi
Polar Bear and JJ-- I have viewed the data for the Home Children voyage link and yes I would say 99% certain that this is the boys. And you have been able to confirm for me of the existence of the Carthaginian Ship. Massive big thankyou to you.
This info confirms Dr Bs letter that the boys travelled together, leaving Liverpool 17 March 1892.
And we, on this thread can now see that John certainly arrived in Canada.
That at least is a starting point.
Viewed the google maps, most interesting, did you note how many places are named King (s)? Much is associated with the name King. Not doing too well with the Toronto Directories, I shall persevere and have another look later.
PB you have come across the 1901 census that I did. via a link here. I feel this Robert is a strong possibility of being mine. I googled New Brunswick.
I might have a death entry for Robert Snr. About to check it out. St George in the East, London, 1890.
If him, that would tie in with the year that the boys were put into care. 1890
Be back soon
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Just want to clarify that you understand that the 1901 Census image that has Robert with the McPheeters is an entry for Ontario and near Toronto. We are a bit confused in that you keep referring to New Brunswick relative to this entry? As I mentioned earlier, I think Robert in Cardwell district with the McPheeters is probably the one who later married Hannah Anthony.
Have you found how to order military files from the Canadian Archives? If not I will PM the how-to so as not to clutter up the thread. I would start with Robert's.
Polarbear
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Hello Polar Bear,
I googled Cardwell. That is where the district and sub district in New Brunswick came from, is that wrong info?
I will chase up the info for ordering Army records, next week, and will, more than likely ,get back to you and JJ for advice on what to do.
Really grateful to you both for your helping me.
Be back tomorrow.
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http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tweetybirdgenealogy/index.html
Here is a link to the Tweedybird site...I didn't look in there as Nancy was looking, but here is why we need to post what we find, as here's what it says for Keziah & Edward ( have not yet looked thoroughly):
1911 census...same as we had found...
ARNOLD, Edward - 16, domestic,with James & Marion Mitchell Kitley Twp., Leeds Co. (91)sub-district : 10 Pg. 7
b.- England Nov. 1894, emigrated- 1907
ARNOLD, Heziah/Keziah - 10, living with Mary Pollard Manvers, Durham, Ont arr 1910 on SS Tunisian with Dr Barnardos ( mentions DAWSON, Jessie also in household as she is a home child as well)
Dec 1931 entry: Keziah Arnold now Mrs C Randall & 3 children ( use internet explorer to get proper order of listing as I got excited when I saw more but it is not her info)
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tweetybirdgenealogy/dec1931girls.html
Looking at this date of entry as it has the two names of the lad. You have him as Edward Merchant Arnold, where did you find this? ( not saying yours isn't correct, but what proved it for you?)
S.S. KENSINGTON APR. 11, 1905 ARNOLD, Edward Edwin 13
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tweetybirdgenealogy/sskensingtonapr1905.html
S.S.Dominion SEPT. 12, 1907 ARNOLD, Elijah 11
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tweetybirdgenealogy/ssdominionsep1907.html
here are the 1907 Arnolds, the Edward is the same age as Elijah, but came a different month. I guess it would be a tossup as to which entry is your Edwin/Edward....Having him say 1907 on the census is not reliable as some of these children couldn't often remember their own birthdays let alone their exact date of entry into Canada ( mind you that goes for a lot of immigrants we have found, hehe)
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/home-children/001015-110.01-e.php?PHPSESSID=9jml73f64mhokkm32955ccvh77&q1=arnold&q2=&q3=1907
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Thanks for the 'tweedybird' link, J.J.
Stomper, if you go back to the 1901 image link for Robert (above) and go to the top of the transcription page you will see 'ON' in front of 'Cardwell'. ON is for Ontario. And if you blow up the image you will see Ontario written out in full at the top of the page. So there might be a Cardwell in New Brunswick but it is not connected to this census entry. Duncan McPheeters and family are lliving in Ontario and Robert is living with and working for him. Hope this makes sense?
Added: I haven't found an Ontario birth for any Robert Welch/Welsh/Walsh that has a birth date matching the info given by the Robert we have been following.
Polarbear
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http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tweetybirdgenealogy/newspaperclipcanada.html
( you'd asked about other homes, these came up under Orangeville)
Tuesday, January 8, 1907, The Toronto Star page 4
Boys Homes Orangeville:
The following are the Toronto institutions which, in addition to the Barnardo Home, place boys in homes:
Boys Home, 339 George Street, ( Now Seaton House which takes in homeless men)
The Fegan Boys Distributing Home, 295 George Street:
Sacred Heart Orphanage, 1749 Queen street West.
295 now, delapidated and in disrepair, but a pretty building at one time! ( several views of it scroll down)
http://www.heritagetoronto.org/building-storeys-photo-exhibit-torontos-aging-spaces
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Hi,
PB_thankyou, you have straightened the matter of the 1901 census for me.
JJ_have visited all the links you have posted, brilliant work both of you, no way would I have discovered all info in such a short time, if at all.
Very good news to learn of Keziah and her 3 children, followed your advice on the internet, but could not pull up details of her kids? am I doing something wrong there? I see on the tweety site that it states they have a photo? How do we access this, please?
Edward/Edwin used both the names, he was born Edwin Merchant Arnold-19 Nov 1894 _birth cert/ 4 Cross Street, Chatham, Kent. If he was sent away by his family then he could have dropped the Mothers name Merchant, don`t you think?
I should imagine that he would have been overwhelmed, afraid, excited?? by his situation and travelling with so many strangers, what a confusing time that must have been.
The age for the boy that you found is only 2 years out, and as you quite rightly say, not unusual.
Thankyou very much for the further info on the Homes in Toronto.
I strongly believe that the 1911 census for Keziah and Edward are correct.
I have found details for William George Arnold who left Dr Bs in 1912, he came back to Chatham. And married a Lily Lydia Arnold. They are in the 1901 census with thier kids.
The death found for Robert snr, unsure of, as this Robert D/ 1890 but was born 1858 in London. I shall continue with the search for him.
I have read through the tweety page about the plight of some of the children, in the newspapers, Blimey, how harrowing for them.
Quite simply stunned by your findings. Thankyou
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There are no details of the children just that there were 3. I had thought there was more because I use firefox, but my own advise on the resource pages says to use internet explorer as the tables collapse in my browser which makes it all a jumble. I didn't see that there was a photograph for Keziah, but there should be one in existence for all the children as they were supposed to take one upon admittance. I wish you could afford to have Barnardos lookups done for some of the children, as all our finds, even cef, can't be proven for sure unless proper names, dates religions even occupations were used at least twice. Keziah is easy as she has an unusual forename.
I did not know that you had picked up a birth for Edwin/Edward as I thought you'd said somewhere the only one you had for certain was I think John? Guess I am getting confused as the thread gets larger...
Have looked further afield for John in censuses as Welch, Welsh, Weltch and variants, but have not found him. J.J.
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The Home Children passenger lists are online
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/home-children/001015-100.01-e.php Broken link.
Try -
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/immigration/immigration-records/home-children-1869-1930/Pages/home-children.aspx
There is a rootsweb mailing list British Home Children (thru Canada icon)
A Descendants webpage with oodles of information
http://www.britishhomechildren.org/ Broken link.
Try -
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~britishhomechildren/
and many people who can answer some of questions re the Home Children.
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Hello
Thankyou for you for your emails.
That is a matter of interest to me to hear that the children had to submit a photograph upon admittance. One needs to be a direct descendant to the child that was admitted into/travelled with Dr Bs to have full access to the Barnado records. Taking into account thier ages when they were admitted and emigrated, then went on to marry, and perhaps have children , many of the direct descendants have passed away.?
It is £100. for a basic search with a copy of the admittance letters etc..and a £100. thereafter, even for direct descendants.?
So, I will take the longer route in finding out more data for the children. Next week I shall order the Attestation papers, where applicable. I have learnt an incredible amount on this thread so far, amazing. All down to you industrious volunteers, I simply cannot thank you enough.
The Descendants webpage is very interesting to view and I shall be working my way through that site and perhaps post a message on there, I will let you know if I do, but right now I need to concentrate on this thread. Be back soon.
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There was supposed to be a photo taken of each child upon admittance. Sometimes one was taken later in life as well, to prove things were going well. My thoughts are that there probably were none taken if it wasn't... :-X
1908 death of Myrtle....Polar Bear has Robert living at 165 N. Beaconsfield Toronto. George Wehler owns the premises
http://www.archive.org/stream/torontodirec190800midiuoft#page/n117/mode/2up
Robert rooms there, occ. Butcher which again helps to tie the Robert we have been looking into directly with the one in the CEF signup you found for him...
http://www.archive.org/stream/torontodirec190800midiuoft#page/n1153/mode/2up
Well let's wait & see what gets sent for Robert's files...
This may be another red herring like the other we researched...but hopefully you find information in the military files for Robert that he knows the whereabouts of his brother....It's a crapshoot as to what is in the files. You could try saying you think he is a Barnardos boy and could they charge you only for copies pertaining to family in case he is not the right fellow? I am not sure if they would help you in that regard, but it doesn't hurt to ask this first?
Don't get your hopes up, but posting in case something comes up to help prove or disprove this one:
Along those same lines we have another John we are looking at in the CEF signups...occ. cook
birth...Jan 2 1886 ( you have a baptism this date, or was it a birth? He says born Ontario...but this isn't always accurate an Polar Bear can't find this exact birth......Says he is married and yet gives next of kin as Robert but he gives no relationship. This Robert lives at 504 Queen St W. which is only a few blocks from 55 Markham. ....http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc017/667654a.gif
1914 there is a Robert 1300 queen St, don't see a John occ. cook and there are none listed by the surname at either address, but that might just mean boarding house owner.
http://www.archive.org/stream/torontodirec191400midiuoft#page/n1561/mode/2up
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Hello
JJ_thankyou for your post. I visited your links, getting the hang of the Toronto Directories. Have noted info down and shall file it away.
Had other searches ongoing today, with some success, different family lines. Then went on to the Tweety site and have been going through every link. Only a few more to finish. Went through quite a few Naval and Coastguard indexes to try and see if John had enlisted there, nothing to note at present.
Will be ordering the Army files, very soon.
This was a very interesting link that I found on
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/britishhomechildren/ it is run by former BHC and is taking steps to register all Home Children. There is one list for HC claimed by descendants and another for those that are unclaimed. I found the following;
Elijah Arnold B/18/02/1895 Eng. Sailed 1907-Dominion age 11
Edward B/1896 Eng-sailed-1907-Dominion-age 11
Kezia E Arnold-B/1900 Eng-sailed-1910-Tunisian-age 10
Robert Welsh-B/ 1882 Eng-sailed-Laurention-1894-age 12
John Welsh-B/1883 Eng-sailed-Carthaginian-1898
John Walsh-B/ 1885 Eng -sailed-Numidian-1895-age 10
John Walsh-B/1887 Eng--sailed-Tunisian-1902-age 15
Now, I realise that some of the dates may look amiss, for Robert and John, but I have an email address, which I shall compose shortly, to contact a Mr Snow to take the search further and access more data that they have, of the voyages. And help to pin down te childrens particulars. Mr snow has helped to compile the British Home Children Registry.
So I will let you know how I get on with that.
Catch you soon.
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Hi
Also, shall be contacting the FHS as follows.
http://www.leedsandgrenvillegenealogy.com/
http://elginogs.ca/
info@torontofamilyhistory.org
http://www.ogs.on.ca/oxford/index.html
Have been browsing through these sites today and believe that it will be beneficial to me to join for further interests.
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Hi
Just been viewing the Elgin Newspapers and found more info for Elijah and Hazel Arnold.
Elmdale Memorial Park Cemetary. Section F, St Thomas ,Ontario, Canada.
F191A Hazel Arnold 1896-1969
F192D Elijah Arnold 1896-1976 ( Crest)
And have an address for the Funeral Home,
Elmdale Memorial Park Cemetary
190 Wilson Avenue,
St Thomas, Ontario Canada. N4R 3R3
They, by all accounts hold detailed information on each person buried in the Cemetary. Still hold most of the Obituary notices for the last 70 years and are in the process of transcribing them to put on line, should that be of use to anyone else searching in Elgin County.
More information for Elgin can be found at http:// www.elgingogs.ca
And on another site that is promoting the book We Will Remember Them. There is a lengthy list of the men and women from Elgin East who served in WW1______unfortuneately Elijah was not to be found there.
http://www.elgingogs.ca/Home/we-will-remember-them
Hope this helps those that had relations who served in Canada WW1.
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Hello,
I have been reading your correspondence regarding the Arnold family. My Uncle married Faith Hope Charity Brown and I have alot of information and certificates for the Arnold's if you are interested. I am happy to share my research with you.
Regards
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Wow! Hello delfryn and welcome to this thread. I am sure stomper will be along soon.
Polarbear
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Hello Delfryn, JJ and Polarbear,
Sorry for my abscence, been very busy and sorting out my PC, back on line now.
Wow! Fantastic.
Delfryn welcome aboard. I shall contact you personally, but if you are able to post anything publicly it may benefit others that review HC pages. And, further reward JJ , Polarbear and others that have contributed to this thread. To whom I am indebted.
And yes I am very interested to learn more about what information you have and happy to share.
OOh, its all very exciting.
Shall make contact shortly and be back on line later today-JJ and PB.
Thankyou.
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delfryn, welcome to rootschat. Any information regarding the living can be sent through the personal message system, by hitting the green scroll under stomper's name
Stomper! :D Very pleasing to see distant rellies come together on our threads. Extremely gratifying to help on BHC threads, and every now & then we have the additional pleasure of bringing people together...BONUS!
J.J.
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Hi
Couldn`t have done it without you and the other people that contribute to the boards and threads.
I have sent a PM to Delfryn and we are going to email one another which is very pleasing.
Also I found a 1911 census entry for William George Arnold, resident of Barnados at Mile End, London. Age 12.
He left the following year `to stay with friends` but I would think they would have to be responsible adults, due to his age ? Foster parents perhaps?
I am currently looking for more info on him.
Be back tomorrow_day off-to carry on the searches. Big hug and thanks to you all.
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Hi.
William George Arnold was a resident in Barnados, Mile End Juvenile Mission. 1911.
Age 12 Released age 13.
Barnados boys were thier wards until the age of 18 years , girls 21 years.
So I am wondering if William went on to one of thier Training Schools or another Home, I will chase that up shortly.
I found a Marraige in Chatham 1920 Sep qtr, 2A 2145- to a Lily Arnold, she also from Chatham, and I am fairly certain it is him, which means that he may well have returned to the family fold.
The nearest Barnados Home that I came across was in Tonbridge Wells, would anyone know of another Home near/in Medway?
When I read up on some of the family sites linked to HC/Barnados it became clear that some Mothers and family members used to visit thier children in care and some eventually reunited with thier children, which is a warming thought.
Unable at present to ascertain what become of William after 1920, work, children, death etc.
I could not find William in any of the Canadian records, so he probably wasn`t sent to Canada along with his siblings.
Is there anyone willing to look up Canada resources to confirm my findings that William George Arnold, B/ 1898 Chatham Kent did not emigrate? Would be much appreciated.
Be back soon, off to look for death entries for Willam and Lily.
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Hi,
Have death details for Lily and William Arnold.
William --1898__1961 Chatham. Kent
Lily -1897--1973 Chatham Kent
An interesting site to view for Barnados Children, that has photos and detailed descriptions of some of the Homes, ie, Babies Castle, Hawkhurst Kent. Under 8`s
Girls Village Home, Essex,
Along with other website links and webpages of former Barnados Children, to name but a few items.;
http://www.goldonion.org
Be back soon.
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Hi, this is a message for Sal1525, the Lily Lydia and William George Arnold in question are my great-grandparents and I'm constructing a family tree and believe we may be able to help one another if you can get in touch. Sorry for the late post but have only just come across your information online.
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We now have a database for British Home Childen on RootsChat:
See Topic: A Rootschat Database for British Home Children
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=716214.0
DBSIG access:
>> Reference Library (link at bottom of every RootsChat page)
>> DBSIG - Database for Special Interest Groups
>> Select your interest
regards,
Bob
ps one reason for posting this here is to alert all the contributors on this topic,
who don't log in to RootsChat very often :)
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hello Bob, Not sure if you were aware that there is a home child resource thread where you can also post a link. I was trying to keep track of home children threads when I found them on rootschat, until I was locked out of modification.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=355348.msg2045534#msg2045534
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Hello, new to this site but intrigued to see links and information relating to my paternal grandfather William George Arnold, ex Barnados boy. He married my grandmother on 5/8/20 in Chatham Kent and went on to have 13 children, to include my Father Ronald. I'm really interested to find out about other siblings of my grandparents, particularly the Barnados children who were sent to Canada. Many thanks.
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Hello susieb117 and a very warm welcome to RootsChat :)
If you would like to name the children who were sent to Canada and their approximate birth years and places (and anything else you know about any of them) we will do our best to try and trace them for you.
Regards
polarbear
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We have done all these searches already...some time ago I believe...Not sure if this is the only thread or not.
Maybe Sal1525 can tell you of any missing blanks if anything still needs to get caught up to speed.
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Using some husband's surnames Edward & Welsh plus a couple of the mother's maiden names used, Merchant & Barnes I found there are more Rootschat threads & searches related to this family. Sorry they are out of order... copied from one of those threads.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=800576.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=503981.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=505704.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=695402.9
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=503975