RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Breconshire => Topic started by: jk22 on Monday 03 March 08 08:00 GMT (UK)
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Rootschat,
Hello.
I'm having trouble with my Welsh gggrandmother! Sarah Watkins md and had 4 children that i know of via the Essex censuses of 1851 and 1861. Thereafter a blank re Sarah's story. Three of her children i know superficially quite well via the various records - censuses, BMD certificates.
On the 1851 census she gives her POB as "Bracknick, Radnorshire, Wales". This can't be! However would the Essex enumerator have linguistically misunderstood 'Bracknick' for Brecknock??? In which case why did she say Radnorshire? Was she playing games with 'big brother'?
Watkins, i believe is a fairly common name in Wales and i have had paid research via Powys with little or no real increase on what i gleaned for myself via the English side of her story. Back in her young days Sarah may have left her father's house to either work and reside in the extended family scenario which when looking at the censuses, she doesn't appear in any household which has a William as her father along with age. And finally with regard to age, Sarah gave two different ages on the two censuses: in 1851 she's 37, birthyear then 1814, then in 1861 she says she's 40, birthyear thus 1821. I've searched but remain confused!!
Would you be able to comment on anything herein please!?
Julie.
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I know at one time part of the area around Hay on Wye was in Brecon and half was in Rads, so maybe she came from that area and wasn`t sure which if she was born on the border..
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Thanks Carrie Ann, that is a help just to know.
Can i ask you if you think that a Welsh lady speaking to an Englishman taking the census in 1851 in Essex would or could interpret her pronounciation/enunciation of
Brecknock as being "Bracknick"??
It she new she came from Brecknock, but unsure as you suggest, would it still apply as per your explanation re Hay on Wye being betwixt and between county borders? That is, is Brecknock near Hay on Wye?
This has been teasing me for too long!! I'd love to get close to identifying my Sarah Watkins/Green.
Regards
Julie
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the enumerators often made mistakes in the spelling of names and towns on the censusand the person giving the information would not be likely to know the correct spelling either >
she may be referring to brecon town in breconshire>
breconshire and radnorshire border each other why not raise your query on the brecon rootsweb list <there are many experts on there with superb knowledge of the area>
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Thanks Carrie Ann.
Will do.
Julie.
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Yes enmumerators did make mistakes. because of accent and the border accent round hay was ( my grandad accent was this ) sometimes extremely hard to understand as they spoke ? speak very fast . Found one of my relatives instead of being spelt with a v had two tt s instead wondered why i couldn't find them even though i knew exactly where they should be and they were just the enumerator had spelt a different surname. the border did fluctauate a lot between censuses as i 've found . happy hunting
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Vic1,
Thanks very much for the explanation.
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Hi
I think BrecknocK was the original name for Brecon.
Frank
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Brecknock was the original name for the county. it was never actually known as Breconshire untill fairly recently used to get shouted ar for saying brecionshire in the 60s by my grandads
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Vic, Carrie Ann, Kinged,
Thanks so much for the info/explanation everyone. Fascinating. I like to think what it must have been like not to have to bother with political and bureaucratic concerns such as what is your voting/electoral district!
Julie
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Hello again,
I'm back just realising i'm still confused!
As the 1851 census holds "Bracknick, Radnorshire, Wales" as Sarah's origin how does that sit with
. Bracknick being the original name for the county
. is Brecknock the same as Bracknick? Or is Brecknock still a village within the county, of recent naming, Brecon, formerly, Brecknockshire??
I guess i'm asking if Sarah actually didn't give a name of a village just a county or rather two that bordered each other thereby implying she came from somewhere within that shared border. Or did she actually come from a village called Bracknick, which was and remains located in the shared border area?
Could anyone comment please?!
Regards
Julie
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My grandfather came from around talgarth in Brecknock. If you asked him where he came From he would reply Brecknock. the area on the border has changed frequently through time and she may have been born right on the border of the two. also may be compounded by the fact they were often referred to together which is also what she May have done have racked my Brains to, think of a place which might sound like it and the only place i can think of is brechfa but thats nearer camarthen. i grew up just in herefordshire and have travelled most of both counties with my father and most of my family research is in these areas.willlcome back if i have any further thoughts
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hi am back already
have been on the LDS site and looked at the igi - in brecknock there are 3 results for Sarah Watkins one of whom has a father called William and born in 1838 in llanigon which is roughly the area my family came from. haven't looked at radnorshire yet incidentally all the sarah watkins came from roughly the same area the two from glasbury are on the border of the two counties . these look promising to me and remember in the early censuses they often rounded the ages up or down. as they weren't always sure of their ages anyway
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Hello Vic1,
What a pal! It must be very late in Wales now; its 9.52am here in Queensland, Australia. Thanks so much for your time and efforts. I've printed out all the responses so i can more fully digest them. Overall i gather that real certainty is a fair way off.
My Sarah Watkins had to be born somewhere between 1811 and 21, as she married in 1844 (Robert Green, at St Brides, London). On her marriage cert she gave her father as William Watkins, a Farmer. I haven't been able to locate a death date for Sarah Watkins Green, albeit checking the IGI and other sources. Green was a very common name, and many Sarah Green for that matter too. I haven't seen her on any of her childrens' censuses either. She had 4 children, the youngest Jane who is my paternal great grandmother.
Anyway, many thanks again Vic1 for your interest,
Kind regards,
Julie
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Hello again. It's been a while ;D
Recently my 3rd cousin Peter, from Essex, but now resides in Wiltshire, and we have hired a professional researcher who specialises in Essex research.
We are focussing on Robert Green, a widower who married our Welsh Sarah Watkins at St Bride's in Fleet St, London in 1844.
We don't know how they met as Robert tells he was born in Ardleigh in 1801 (1851 census). By 1851 he and Sarah had 3 children; my greatgrandmother was born in 1855, in Weeley (as all 3 other children.)
How come our Sarah was in London? Why was Robert who was a recent widower? Did they meet up at the West London Union? I have a SW listed therein on the 1841 census.
I understand that mid-Wales is a farming/cattle area and that droving was carried out for centuries through the mid and home counties, including Essex. Robert was a Butcher according to Jane's 1881 marriage record. Her older brother John Green was a Cattle Dealer, and Butcher - as per several censuses. John married a Catherine Jones from Holmer in Herefordshire in 1866. Other Welsh names lace our Green tree so i am wondering if it was the cattle/meat industry which featured widely in our family?! Up til now it is mainly the liquor trade - pubs and wine merchants! Given that county borders changed "a lot" i'm wondering as 'Vic1' points out, if Sarah came from Radnorshire on the border of Hereforshire.
As an Australian who has worked on a cattle station in our Northern Territory and done some drafting i speculate that the bush network was very much alive and well in the British context!
Any ideas anyone?
Kind regards
Julie
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Hi jk22
Just to clarify for you, the county name was Brecknockshire.
Brecon is still Brecon, or to give it it's Welsh name Aberhonddu, the town that it is.
In Radnorshire, there is not a town or village that sounds or looks like Breckon/Bracken.
Vic1 has given you an idea of births, which I would go with , for a start. The idea of the Drovers is a good one for that area, and their occupations. The National Library in Aberystwyth have some good researchers and all the records that they would need . At that time the streets in London were "paved in Gold ", and many Welsh moved to London.
I hope this helps you in a small way. Good luck !!
I have presumed that you are in Oz, and that it might help you with a researcher from the Nat. Lib.
to search for a birth, unless someone on here has a copy of the Births for the area. I am not sure which Family History Society will have the details, but they may have been transcribed already.
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Hello Nainmaddie,
Thank you very much for your reply. That old Welsh view about London - very salient! Thank you for the comment on droving/cattle industry. Really gives context however limited for my search.
Yes i am in Oz and the Queen is here at present. I live in Toowoomba which is about 60miles west of coastal Brisbane, in Queensland. It is a tropical state although Tba is on a ridge [the Great Dividing Range] so can be cold or very cool but does get humid in summer.
My sister and i drove around some of Wales 30years ago in our youth. We were both 'nursing sisters' - at that time we had no idea about our lady from Wales.
I really appreciate it being confirmed that there is no place in Radnorshire that looks/sound like Bracknick. I thought it might have been the name of the property, rather than a place but that is probably unlikely?
I will go to the National Library of Wales for a researcher. I did 'use' a researcher years ago but i think that was from the Powys council.
Kind regards
Julie
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Hi Julie
I have done a bit more searching for you, and you might well find a reasonable researcher from the
www.powys.gov.uk as you did before. It might be cheaper for you !!
Also www.genuki.org.uk would also provide you with some helpful tips and information.
If you go into Breconshire and follow on down to Gazeteers, further down click on Welsh family history Archive site . Go to Maps and click on Breconshire. You will see on the map that Brecon was called Brecknock !!
If I can find anymore for you, I will post it here for you
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Looking at the original image I wd read "Bracknock" rather than "Bracknick
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/bre.html
The link above explains "Brecknock" as a registration district and list the parishes covered. It also refers to "Brecknock" as a sub registration district within the registration district of "Brecknock" - but doesn't identify those parishes within the sub district.
http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/unit_census_page.jsp?u_id=10550634&c_id=
If you click on "Population Abstract" from the above link it gives some idea of the size of the registration district in 1851. It also has a map of the district of Brecknock within the County of Brecknockshire/Breconshire.
regards
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Hello 'nainmaddie' and 'Hanes Tuelu',
Thanks very much for your guidance.
I contacted a Welsh research agency and have lodged a commission with them, so here's hoping!
I will continue to do what i can.
Regards
Julie