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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Jimvin on Sunday 27 February 11 11:58 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to confirm who my Great Great Grandfather married. I have searched all of the records and I know that he marries an Elizabeth based on the census returns. The Thomas Walton in 1881 is certainly correct, as he was a professor of music, which is confirmed by my great grandfather's marriage certificate. He was born about 1838 and was in the staffordshire/ wolverhampton/ west bromwich area. According to the 1881 he was married to Elizabeth, and I have one side of the family who think he married Elizabeth Morton/ Moreton. The problem I have is that a Thomas Walton did marry a Elizabeth Morton in 1867, but I don't think this is the one. I have got two marriage certificates, one for an Elizabeth Mor(e)ton and one for Elizabeth Brooks, but the more I look at them the more I think they are wrong.
The next stage I am at, and this is my question... could it be possible that Thomas Walton married an Elizabeth in 1859, which would fit, but on the marriage register it would list her as Sarah Elizabeth Walton. Normally, don't the registers have the maiden name? I have come across second names being used as their main name later in censuses so despite having Sarah as a listed name, it could well be the correct one. They refer to the same volume, and I have checked that the other two people on the same page did marry each other... therefore according to the marriage record... Thomas Walton married Sarah Elizabeth Walton.
I assume the only way of confirming is to order the certificate?
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This may sound a bit simplistic,but the usual way to find out a woman's maiden name is to get the birth cert of one of their children!
Sarah Elizabeth and Thomas could have been cousins- my grandparents were,and therefore both had the same surname before and after marriage ;D
Another way of finding a maiden name(if you're very lucky) is to find one of her rellies living with them on later censuses.
Carol
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Probably, unless you have one of their children's birth cert which should give you mother's maiden name.
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Oops! Snap Carol x
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Oops! Snap Carol x
Great minds think alike ;D
Have also added a dead jammy option :P
Carol
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Hmmm, there is a Thomas Walton married to a Sarah E on the 1881 census. He is a lock manufacturer in Birmingham, but both Thomas and Sarah were born in Wolverhampton so may have married there. Oldest child on 1881 is 17
RG11; Piece: 2992; Folio: 53; Page: 3
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Good idea with the birth certificates.
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Looking at the 1881 census return for your Thomas Walton, they have two boarders - RObert and Phoebe Morton aged 65 and 69 - about the right age to have a daughter aged 41 (Elizabeth's age on the 1881)
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That's one of the reasons where the Morton bit comes from, and I believe my cousin in NZ has a birth certificate which says Morton. The problem is I cannot find a marriage which fits... 1867 could be but seems to be 7 years or so too late.
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Why is it 7 years too late? Do you have them on the 1871 census? I had a quick look and the most likely couple I found had Thomas as a stock taker rather than a music professor. They have an 11mnths old daughter Mary E
RG10; Piece: 3000; Folio: 84; Page: 50
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I think I am noticing an error possibly. I could have the wrong census for 1861, therefore it is possible the 1867 wedding. I think the problem maybe with having too many Waltons in the same area.
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He definitely does become a Professor of Music so I think the 1871 and 1881 are correct. I just need to find the correct 1861.
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Looking at the 1861 census, I have found Robert and Phebie Morton - with eldest daughter Elizabeth unmarried. RG9; Piece: 2120; Folio: 103; Page: 43
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You are a star. I think the confusion came because I was assuming an earlier census was correct. Two Thomas Waltons in Tipton....
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Also noticed the Mortons in 1881 & in 1851 they are in West Brom. with a daughter Elizabeth aged 11.
HO107/2025/434/41
jim
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Yay! Case closed ;)
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1861 has the family in Kings Norton Worcs.Elizabeth aged 21 is a dressmaker.
RG9/2120/103/43
jim
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1861 there is Elizabeth morton age 21 student dressmaker b W Brom with parents Robert and Phoebe (who fit the details of the lodgers in 1881
there are also a lot of other children
RG9 2120 103 43
there is a marriage reg FreeBMD
Mar qtr 1867
W Bromwich
on same page
Elizabeth Moreton
Thomas Walton
6b 836
different spelling of Morton but could be transcription error or how whoever recorded it spelled the name -or any other reason -we are used to spelling differences.
So it looks like your Thomas did marry Elizabeth Morton/Moreton
I don't think the 1859 marriage of Thomas Walton to an Elizabeth would be your marriage -as it looks like Thomas was unmarried and living with his sisters (Eliza and Elizabeth!!) in 1861????
Sister Elizabeth is with Thomas and family in 1871 but described as "lodger" -so I guess it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for his in laws to be described as "Lodgers" in 1881
Suz
If I have correct Thomas his occupation on 1861/71 is Stock Taker -then 1881 he suddenly becomes a professor of music?????????
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Just trying to get the marriage certificate correct. I have a Thomas Walton marrying Elizabeth Moreton (note the e) for Feb 1867, but what is wrong is the name of the father - Joseph Moreton. West Bromwich 1867. I ordered this marriage certificate because it almost fits, but when I got it it throws another doubt.
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Looking at the 1881 census return for your Thomas Walton, they have two boarders - RObert and Phoebe Morton aged 65 and 69 - about the right age to have a daughter aged 41 (Elizabeth's age on the 1881)
So my suggestion about useful rellies staying with them has proved correct ;D
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However, on that marriage certificate it has him as a stock taker! The professor of music is correct as my Great Grandfather's marriage certificate had his father (Thomas Walton) as a Professor of music. I assume he took up the teaching of music when they had the music shop in Tipton.
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Looking at the 1881 census return for your Thomas Walton, they have two boarders - RObert and Phoebe Morton aged 65 and 69 - about the right age to have a daughter aged 41 (Elizabeth's age on the 1881)
So my suggestion about useful rellies staying with them has proved correct ;D
;D
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Meant father-in-law
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In the 1871 census Thomas is listed as a stock taker.It's the right family as daughter Mary is aged 11 months.
jim
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Oh dear,1891 has some of the children in an orphanage.
jim
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However, on that marriage certificate it has him as a stock taker! The professor of music is correct as my Great Grandfather's marriage certificate had his father (Thomas Walton) as a Professor of music. I assume he took up the teaching of music when they had the music shop in Tipton.
I already posted on 1861/71 census Thomas is a Stock Taker???
Wondered how he became a proffesor of music in a short time ???
On marriage cert -it gives Elizabeth Moreton 's father as Joseph??? what is his occupation -and who are the witnesses???
Suz
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That is why it fits, from the 71 and the marriage certificate he was a stock taker but I assume, if they are one of the same, he was keen on music and then goes down that route. However, I wonder whether there was pretentiousness on his part by calling himself a professor of music. :) Let me check on the marriage certificate, currently sending this post from somewhere else so do not have it to hand at the moment. I can though remember his occupation... forge manager. I will check on the witnesses. Thanks for the help.
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I can see Robert being a forge manager as on previous censuses he's variously described as steam engine maker,fitter & engineer.Forges were steam driven up to the invention of the electric motor that was big enough to drive one.It would be a natural progression for someone with his skill & knowledge.
jim
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Unfortunately, I now have in front of me and it is the father of Thomas Walton (his name is William Walton) who is the forge manager. Elizabeth Moreton's father is Joseph Moreton and was a labourer. The witnesses seem to be William Russell and Hannah Moreton.
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what you have is the wrong marriage or the wrong census family.
I think this is them in 1851
HO107/2026/198/2
Jos.Moreton is listed as a labourer,there is also an Elizabeth age 11 & a Hannah aged 19
1871 has Hannah single living with married sister Sarah.
It looks like all the Thomas Waltons born around that time will have to be researched from cradle to the grave.
just to recap,you have the marr. cert. for Thomas Walton/stocktaker(Fa.William/forge manager) = Elizabeth Moreton(fa.Joseph/labourer)
Your Thomas Walton(Prof. of music) married Elizabeth Morton(fa.Robert/engine fitter)
Found this marriage:
Sept.1869/ Pontypool/11a/194/Thomas Walton=Elizabeth Morton(no "e")
In 1871 Robert & Phoebe Morton are living in Pontypool :D
If that's not them I'll buy a round of drinks.
So you have Elizabeth Morton from 1841(listed as Merton) up to 1861.
Robert & Phoebe up to 1881(with Thomas & Eliz.)
There are too many Thomas Waltons about to say who he belongs to so it looks like another cert. required.
jim
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jim1
I think you've got it... :)
Another marriage certificate I think is required but if that clears it up I will be delighted, thanks
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searched all The Thomas' from 1841 & Thomas the stocktaker is the son of William & Margaret it appears.
Wouldn't it be odd if Thomas married Elizabeth Moreton in 1867,she died & he married Elizabeth Morton in 1869.
Let us know how you get on.
jim
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Now I have the certificate here it is....
The 1869 Pontypool marriage is Thomas Walton married Elizabeth Morton in the presence of Robert Morton. Robert Morton is the father and was an engineer. The father of Thomas was William Walton (Forge Manager) deceased. Thomas Walton at time of marriage had been living at Toll End Tipton.
Bizarre-ly... the 1867 which is a much younger (but different) Thomas Walton had a father who was called William Walton and was a forge manager.
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Robert Morton is the father ???
Sorry not with you?
Are you saying that Elizabeth was a widow and her father's name was Robert Morton?
Surely there is more than one witness?
How old are they both?
Carol
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Elizabeth's father is Robert Morton. The other witness I think is another Morton, handwriting is very bad... could be Alice Morton????
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They are 32 and 29 (Thomas and Elizabeth respectively)
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Eliz. Morton didn't have a sister Alice,could it be Isaac Morton.
What was Thomas' occupation on the cert?
On the other cert. how old was Thomas?
jim
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Are you saying that Elizabeth was a widow and her father's name was Robert Morton?
So she's listed as being a widow then? Aged 29 in 1869?
Carol
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1841
William Walton/40/pudler
Margaret/40
William/10
Alice/9
Mary/8
Thomas/4
John/7m.
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1851
William Watts/38/Stocktaker
Margaret Watts nee Walton/51(Marr.1849)
Thomas Walton/son-in-law/14/stocktaker
Mary Walton/dau.-in-law/18
Step-children were often referred to as in-laws.
Children:William,Eliza & Elizabeth Walton living together in Eagle Lane Tipton
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1861
Thomas Walton/24/stocktaker
Eliza/29/sister
Elizabeth/26/sister
*******************************
1871
Thomas Walton/33/stocktaker
Elizabeth/wife/31
Mary/11m.
Eliza/40
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1881
Eliza is living with her mother Margaret & step-father William Watts in the house of sister Alice Robins nee Walton(Marr.1854).Listed as in-laws.
Those are the links from 1841 up to 1881 when Thomas is with the Mortons.
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Are you saying that Elizabeth was a widow and her father's name was Robert Morton?
So she's listed as being a widow then? Aged 29 in 1869?
Carol
No she was not a widow. William Walton was deceased.
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Thomas Walton according to the 1869 Pontypool marriage cert is Mill Manager I think, Elizabeth does not have a rank or profession. Her father was Robert Morton, an Engineer, and his father was William Walton (deceased) Forge Manager.
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1841
William Walton/40/pudler
Margaret/40
William/10
Alice/9
Mary/8
Thomas/4
John/7m.
*************************
1851
William Watts/38/Stocktaker
Margaret Watts nee Walton/51(Marr.1849)
Thomas Walton/son-in-law/14/stocktaker
Mary Walton/dau.-in-law/18
Step-children were often referred to as in-laws.
Children:William,Eliza & Elizabeth Walton living together in Eagle Lane Tipton
**************************
1861
Thomas Walton/24/stocktaker
Eliza/29/sister
Elizabeth/26/sister
*******************************
1871
Thomas Walton/33/stocktaker
Elizabeth/wife/31
Mary/11m.
Eliza/40
*****************************
1881
Eliza is living with her mother Margaret & step-father William Watts in the house of sister Alice Robins nee Walton(Marr.1854).Listed as in-laws.
Those are the links from 1841 up to 1881 when Thomas is with the Mortons.
Now that seems complicated but that helps and does make sense...
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*************************
1851
William Watts/38/Stocktaker
Margaret Watts nee Walton/51(Marr.1849)
Thomas Walton/son-in-law/14/stocktaker
Mary Walton/dau.-in-law/18
Step-children were often referred to as in-laws.
Children:William,Eliza & Elizabeth Walton living together in Eagle Lane Tipton
**************************
So the William, Eliza and Elizabeth were the older children ???
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William,Eliza & Elizabeth were all older than Thomas.
How old was the other Thomas Walton ?
jim
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The 1867 marriage was Thomas Walton aged 21 (it looks like). It's a bit of a coincidence that both fathers were called William Walton and were Forge Managers! ???
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Could it be 31?
jim
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Are you saying that Elizabeth was a widow and her father's name was Robert Morton?
So she's listed as being a widow then? Aged 29 in 1869?
Carol
No she was not a widow. William Walton was deceased.
So she's listed as being a spinster then?
I'm having a bit of toruble trying to work out if her name was Elizabeth Walton at marriage ,why was her dad Robert Morton?
I'm confused ::)
Carol
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The 1869 Pontypool marriage is Thomas Walton married Elizabeth Morton in the presence of Robert Morton
There are a couple of Thomas Waltons b.C.1846 but not with a father William.
There are no William Waltons forge manager on the censuses.
There is only one Thomas Walton stocktaker.
I think Thomas was being a bit inventive when it came to his fathers occupation.
Elizabeth Moreton (father Joseph) appears up to 1851 & then the family seem to disappear,she emerging in 1867 married to Thomas Walton.
There are couple of Thomas Waltons married to an Elizabeth but neither b.C.1846,one a clogmaker & the other a tilemaker.
So the only explanation,although bizarre is that you have the same Thomas Walton on both marriage certs.The forge manager occupation being an exaggeration of his real occupation as was his own in 1881 calling himself a Prof. of Music.
The census information is the right Thomas so the first Elizabeth must have died.
jim
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Elizabeth Walton was Elizabeth Morton (maiden name), her father was Robert Morton.
The 1867 marriage certificate is West Bromwich, and it looks like Thomas Walton is 21 - Elizabeth Moreton with an e looks like she is 24 or it could be 26. Handwriting bad again! Thomas was a stocktaker living in West Brom area. Thomas' father was William Walton and he was a forge manager. Elizabeth Moreton's father was Joseph Moreton who was a labourer. The witnesses are William Russell (who could not sigh his name) and Hannah Moreton.
I don't think it looks it could be 31. This one was a stock taker.
The 1869 is the one in Pontypool which must be the correct one as there is Robert Morton, who lives in Pontypool and turns up later in the censuses staying with the son in law and daughter. It fits as well because Thomas normally lives in Tipton, just gets married in Pontypool.
The William Walton, forge manager, on both is the confusing part.
Surely it is pure coincidence that we have a Thomas Walton marrying Elizabeth Moreton in 1867, with a father being William Walton (forge manager) and then two years later ANOTHER Thomas Walton marrying Elizabeth Morton, with a father William Walton (forge manager).
There is two and a half years between each marriage... Feb 11th 1867 and 20th July 1869
The Pontypool sounds like the one to me.
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Tipton to West Brom is only about 4 miles...
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Are you saying that Elizabeth was a widow and her father's name was Robert Morton?
So she's listed as being a widow then? Aged 29 in 1869?
Carol
No she was not a widow. William Walton was deceased.
So she's listed as being a spinster then?
I'm having a bit of toruble trying to work out if her name was Elizabeth Walton at marriage ,why was her dad Robert Morton?
I'm confused ::)
Carol
No she was a Morton at marriage and a spinster. I think when I first typed it I made a mistake and typed Walton not Morton, I edited it. Read back, it should make sense now.
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found them!
1871 cen.
RG10/1628/54/45
Thomas Walton/25/stock taker
Elizabeth/24
Emma S/3
Lizzie/4m.
Living in West Ham
**************************
1881/West.Brom.
RG11/2845/20/34
Hannah Moreton/46
Elizabeth Walton/34
Emma S Walton/12
Lizzie Walton/10
Maud H Walton/5
Hannah Moreton was a witness at this Elizabeth's marriage
Elizabeth is listed as married but no sign of Thomas
jim
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Do you mean West Ham? or should that be West Brom?
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1871 they were living in West Ham Essex.Listed as born Staffs.
1881 the family are with Elizabeth's sister Hannah Moreton back in West. Brom. Staffs. minus Thomas.
I think I've found this Elizabeth in 1901 remarried to a Henry Richbell in Manchester.
I can find only one Thomas Walton b.C.1845 with a father William,he was a pudler as well.
jim
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I think this could be Thomas Walton 1841, father William
HO107/977/11/ 33 p26 West Bromwich
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searched all The Thomas' from 1841 & Thomas the stocktaker is the son of William & Margaret it appears.
That's the one,didn't put it up earlier as we were still trying to unravel the 2 families.After her husbands death Margaret married a stocktaker which started all this off.If she'd married a butcher Thomas may have become one too & you wouldn't have had this problem,that's families for you I suppose.
Happy hunting & let us know if you get stuck again.
jim