RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Powerhouse on Monday 28 February 11 22:08 GMT (UK)
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If anyone has information about a John or Allan McLean. I would like to know what happened to him.
I have a letter from him with the address as Matahiia Station dated Dec 20th 1878.
This is a photo of who we believe to be John McLean.
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Are you connected with the previous request
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=2gpp1cd9f7h1491lfbvs1uaq80&topic=511346.0
Bye
Althea
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Yes thank you Althea, I am the same one. Mackiwi posted a question on my behalf. Since then I have reason to believe that the first name could be either John or Allan McLean. If I'm on the right track there is a son called Roderick Coll McLean, born to Allan. I have quite a bit of information about him, I just don't know if this is the correct McLean.
I had an answer from Jeremy Williams of Matahaii Station and they have no record of a McLean there during 1878, but tell me that many records were destroyed in a fire.
I tried to include a photo of a scan of John McLean taken in New Zealand, but couldn't manage to do it.
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1880-81 ELectoral roll East Coast
Allan McLean, residential, Matahiia, Akuaku, Sheepfarmer
Bye
Althea
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Still there 1885
BYe
Althea
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Hi Althea,
You are amazing! Thank you so very much!
Now in the information I have I've noticed 3 different spellings of Allan, but I don't suppose that is of any significance.
So assuming we have the right one, I have him married to Amelia Elizabeth and they had 1 son, Roderick Coll, and 1 daughter - she is listed on Roderick Coll's military records as A. McLean.
Is there anyway of finding out where Allan came from in Scotland, how old he was in 1885, and when he died?
Again, many thanks.
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if you can afford to get some certificates they may be of use in confirming many details..of course depending on year then information contained on the printour will vary.
Intention to marry for Allan may give some idea length of time in NZ
We need to find his death/burial..tht cert would be helpful I'm sure one of the readers will spot it
So many mentions for Allan McKenzie..big landowner, should be in Cyclopedia.On son's school record they are living a Nuhaka
Allan is A JP Wairoa area...again trap being there are many other Allan McL's in NZ but seemsssssssssssss to be only one in this province
Before gathering anymore info, would guess we need to track back and look for confirmation.
Will go and see what can be found for death
BYe
Althea
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i wonder if he could have been related to the south island Allan McLean..or is the COLL a red herring
http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/biographies/1m37/1
bye
Althea
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Lots of entries here is one example at the HAWKES BAY GENEALOGY site
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nzlhawke/
1875 return of sheepholders there is an Allan McLean
they would be worth a contact as local books on the area may have all the answers you need
Bye
Althea
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Matching children for Amelia and ALlan
Allan Hector McLean b 12 April 1889
Braedalbane Emma b 11 Feb 1891
and Roderick Coll b 1896
Variant spellings for daughter, wonder if this meant one of them came on ship of same name.
BYe
Althea
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Well done, that's the right one Althea! We had heard that the daughter was called for my paternal grandmother Breadalbane, which is an area of Scotland.
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I notice the second last message I sent is not on the Website, is there a reason for that? Should I not have mentioned that some of my ancestors children might still be alive today?
If so, my apologies for that.
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The mods don't usually remove awhole message, areas would juts be blocked out if you gave living folks names and ages. So may have just been a posting glitch.
So do you now think that the Allan that married Amelia is definetly yours (as def as can be without certificates)
IT may well be that he had a father Allan??? who was farming first..guess much more to find
So have anyone of the childrens lines been traced..as you say to the point of finding living relatives
BYe
althea
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School records for Bredalbane showed family moved to Wairoa end 1903
1905-6 electoral roll they are now in Wairoa
Hoping this may lead to burial area....
Bye
Althea
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I didn't mention any of the children's names, so it must have been a posting glitch.
I definitely think we are on the right track, the name Breadalbane was what did it.
I have not tried to trace any of the children's names mostly because I don't know where to go find them.
If you give me some leads I can help with the search.
Thankyou so much Althea, the family is quite excited!
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You can first check the names I found at BMD
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/home/
I was looking for a death for Amelia Elizabeth which may be easier to find than ALLAN, but can't see one
maybe another chatter can find some leads
Bye
Althea
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Hello...Possibly Allan Hector McLEAN
Surname: MCLEAN
Given Name Allan Hector
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 2
Regimental Number 23028
Rank: Rifleman
Next of Kin Title: Miss A
Next of Kin Surname: MCLEAN
Next of Kin Relationship: Sister
Next of Kin Address: Runanga Greymouth
Roll:33
Page:33
Occupation: Labourer
Source: NZ WW1 Service Personnel and Reservists Index CD
There is a burial record at Mangatera Cemetery, Dannevirke which may tie in because of the age and the fact that he's buried in the WW1 section
http://www.tararuadc.govt.nz/asp/cemetery_details.asp?ID=34&PlotID=6020
Anyone mentioned the Roderick Coll McLEAN buried at Reefton yet? Is this the red heering mentioned earlier. (Where is that whiteboard I asked for :-)
http://public.bullerdc.govt.nz/cgi-bin/cemetery/cepp?key=012896
Family name:MCLEAN
Given names: RODERICK COLL
Age:58 years
Interment date: 16/08/1954
Birth place:GISBORNE
Cemetery:Reefton
Plot:771
Denomination:Anglican
A few other internments in the same plot too.
The guy with the Wairoa Council who answers genealogical enquiries is really good. Try sending him an email asking if Allan and Amelia are on his cemetery database.
http://www.wairoadc.govt.nz/servicesregulatory/cemeteries/
Regards
Beg
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Yes I've a lot of information on Roderick Coll McLean, he is a brother to Allan Hector, both are sons of Amelia and Allan McLean.
It's odd that neither of them name each other as next of kin on their death certificates; but they both name their sister. Maybe they had a falling out!
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Yes I've a lot of information on Roderick Coll McLean
Hello....Apologies if I'm re-inventing the wheel. Just going off what's in the thread so far.
they both name their sister.
Did the sister shorten her name to Albane and is she the Albane McLEAN mentioned in the electoral rolls for the West Coast and later the East Cape?
It's odd that neither of them name each other as next of kin on their death certificates
If you're referring to the Army Service records I think next of kin had to be a civilian. Unless you meant death certificate in which case next-of-kin is listed by (normally) the informant.
Regards
Beg
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Beg you are a gem
I had struck a brickwall with Bredalbane, so what you suggest makes perfect sense ;D
So do you think it looks likely that parents are either dead or left country when WWI details taken???
Bye
Althea
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Hello Althea....
So do you think it looks likely that parents are either dead or left country when WWI details taken???
Not sure to be honest. Would love to know if the 1928 burial at Gisborne cemetery and the 1928 probate for the Gisborne sheep farmer are tied into the original poster's Allan McLEAN.
McLEAN Allan - Pehiri - Sheep Farmer d. 1928
No sign of Amelia though. Am hoping to visit the library this afternoon so I'll check the obvious 1871 birth and see if a district is mentioned. Maybe she was buried where she was born.
Regards
Beg
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In Roderick Coll's military records 1916 he has both his parents listed as deceased. Father born in Scotland, mother born in Australia.
In Roderick Coll's marriage document 1949, to his second wife he has his mother's name listed as Amelia Elizabeth Williamson, Formerly McLean, maiden name McCready.
Looks like Amelia married twice???
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NZ Marriage
Amelia Elizabeth McLEAN - William Ralph WILLIAMSON -- 1908
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Thank you Lucy 2. Now we can look for Amelia Williamson. The plot thickens!
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Answers and more questions
Amelia Elizabeth Williamson, Formerly McLean, maiden name McCready.
I thought she was WATTS
1888/2082 Amelia Watts Allan McLean (BMD online)
BYe
Althea
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Hi Powerhouse
Just also spotted a Probate record - with a Greymouth connection ?
WILLIAMSON - Amelia Elizabeth, Runanga - w/o William R. Williamson - Year 1912
[Greymouth Court - file at Archives NZ, Christchurch. ]
Now need to check BDM for death of this Amelia.
~ Lu
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Was looking to see if there was a death for an Allan McLean prior to the 1908 wedding
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0c3d/
theres this one 1907 for old settler, bought out from Nuhaka, he is aged 77,
this is the one that I thought was the father of the Allan we wanted..but who knows maybe he married old ???
sorry more questions again than answers
Bye
Althea
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Hi Powerhouse
Just also spotted a Probate record - with a Greymouth connection ?
WILLIAMSON - Amelia Elizabeth, Runanga - w/o William R. Williamson - Year 1912
[Greymouth Court - file at Archives NZ, Christchurch. ]
Now need to check BDM for death of this Amelia.
~ Lu
Source NZSG Cemetery Fiche
Surname WILLIAMSON
Given Names Amelia
Year of Death 1912
Record Number 303
Record Type M/I
Age 54
Location P03.12 Karoro Greymouth
Beg
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Hi Powerhouse
Mmm ... only death I can see indexed for an "Amelia" is >>
1912 - WILLIAMSON - Emilia Elizabeth - 50 YA (about 50 years)
So born circa 1862 ... does that sound right ?
Still looking.
~ Lu
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It does sound right. I will ask for those Probate records when the office in Christchurch opens again. It's been closed because of the earthquake, but I understand they were all safe.
I've noticed that when I post a message while I'm receiving a message mine doesn't show up on the Website.
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Hi Powerhouse
Mmm ... I think the age (54) given on the Greymouth Cemetery record, seems much more probable.
Just found this earlier NZ marriage.
Amelia E. McCREEDY - John David WATTS - 1874
More diggin' to be done. :D
~ Lu
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ooh ... goodness .... Amelia also had 6 children with Mr. WATTS.
:o
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Hi Powerhouse
If you are posting at the same time as someone else you get a warning in red across the top, you can choose not to post, ot if you have your info ready and still want it to go you can push send. and it will post
otherwiae go back refresh your page (F5), see what has been written and post accordingly..I sometimes do this in a separate tab so I don't have to retype what I've done..hope that helps
Bye
Althea
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NZ Births
WATTS
1875 -- William David
1877 -- Gertrude Lissa
1879 -- Maud Mary
1881 -- Victor George *
1883 -- Hedley William
1884 -- Olive Indres
Parents: Amelia and John David
* Victor George - mother indexed as "Amelia Eliza" - father, John David
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WATTS
Probate record at Archives NZ, Auckland : [Ex Gisborne Court]
WATTS - John David - Matawhero - 1887
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WATTS
WATTS - John D. - died 20 June1887 - 36 yrs.
Buried Makaraka Cemetery, Gisborne, with child Hedley. :'(
WATTS - Hedley William - 4 yrs - d. 6 July 1887
http://www.gdc.govt.nz/online-cemetery-record-search/
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So I'm confused :-)
What's the most likely explanation for the 1871/10593 birth record of WATTS Amelia Elizabeth.
It's three years before the 1874 marriage so it's either a huge coincidence of names or a thirteen year old mother and a twenty year old father not allowed to get married until the bride turned sixteen.
Would be handy to view the birth certificate.
FWIW, the headstone in Karoro Cemetery reads
ILMO Amelia Elizabeth
Beloved wife of William Ralph WILLIAMSON
9/1/1912
Aged 54
Beg
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I've been away for 5 hours and now I'm confused! :)
Although I'm fascinated by the life of Amelia, and would love to find out more, and I do appreciate all the research, I think perhaps we should just concentrate on her time married to Allan McLean and their children, as they are my descendants.
Maybe Allan and Amelia were never married, but had 3 children ????
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Hi Powerhouse
Good idea
Post the last details that you have that can be posted (for privacy reasons)
PM me any possible living names and I'll take a look
Bye
Althea
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So I'm confused :-)
What's the most likely explanation for the 1871/10593 birth record of WATTS Amelia Elizabeth.
It's three years before the 1874 marriage so it's either a huge coincidence of names or a thirteen year old mother and a twenty year old father not allowed to get married until the bride turned sixteen.
Beg
FamilySearch.org has an Ancestral File (submitted information) for what appears to be the 1871, Amelia Elizabeth WATTS.
Amelia Elizabeth WATTS
Birth: 1872
D/o - William James WATTS & Rosetta PARKER
Amelia Elizabeth WATTS
Death: 1876 (6 March 1876)
Buried at: Onehunga (Auckland)
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What's the most likely explanation for the 1871/10593 birth record of WATTS Amelia Elizabeth.
Beg
FamilySearch.org has an Ancestral File (submitted information) for what appears to be the 1871, Amelia Elizabeth WATTS.
Amelia Elizabeth WATTS
Birth: 1872
D/o - William James WATTS & Rosetta PARKER
Amelia Elizabeth WATTS
Death: 1876 (6 March 1876)
Buried at: Onehunga (Auckland)
Excellent catch Lucy :-)
So what's the link between Rosetta PARKER and Amelia Elizabeth McCREEDY........sisters-in-law?
And what a coincidence that the name Amelia Elizabeth WATTS turns up twice.
Regards
Beg
I think perhaps we should just concentrate on her time married to Allan McLean and their children, as they are my descendants.
Apologies to the OP for the thread jack.
1) They are actually your ancestors, not descendants.
2) If the 4 July 1888 marriage between Allan McLEAN and Amelia Elizabeth WATTS bore the three McLean children then Amelia is also one of your ancestors.
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I've been away for 5 hours and now I'm confused! :)
Although I'm fascinated by the life of Amelia, and would love to find out more, and I do appreciate all the research, I think perhaps we should just concentrate on her time married to Allan McLean and their children, as they are my descendants.
Maybe Allan and Amelia were never married, but had 3 children ????
Hi Powerhouse
Firstly, apologies if I have in any way contributed to your confusion (with regards to my adding the information concerning Amelia's first husband and family). ;)
But just to explain ....
It's by no means unusual to find in threads in this forum, information being added which at first glance may appear trivial, irrelevant, or - totally astray of the question(s) being asked by the lister. ;D
As in this case, where we're temporarily "stuck" in turning up anything further about your Allan McLean, it could well be that the (seemingly irrelevant) contributions, spark further interest. Sometimes we need to tack in a different direction to find answers. ;)
And who knows, maybe there are descendants of Amelia's first family out there somewhere ? The "magic" of RootsChat is that information can spring forth from the most unlikely of sources.
~ Lu
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Maybe Allan and Amelia were never married, but had 3 children ????
[Mentioned earlier in this thread, I think ? ]
This appears to be the marriage.
Amelia Elizabeth WATTS - Allan McLEAN -- year 1888
----------------------------------
My turn to be confused. :D
Powerhouse ... not sure if you're wanting to discover the background of Allan McLean, but if so, then by purchasing this marriage record you would get information contributed by Allan, himself.
Link to NZ BMD > >
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/search/
[Request "a printout" of this record (rather than certificate) - this gives maximum info and is the less expensive option also. ] :)
~ Lu
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Yes there may be alot of other info
and yes it may all be useful ...
at the moemt Powerhouse would like to find descendants of the marriage of Allan and Amelia ...hopefully to get clues to find those still alive
children for Amelia and ALlan
Allan Hector McLean b 12 April 1889
Braedalbane Emma b 11 Feb 1891
and Roderick Coll b 1896
BYe
Althea
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at the moment Powerhouse would like to find descendants of the marriage of Allan and Amelia
Hello Althea.....in that case two things the OP could do is:
1) Start a thread requesting that the Army Service Record of Allan Hector McLEAN be digitised. More often than not there is a notification of death in the file. If the notification tallies with the burial record from Mangatera Cemetery then purchase a printout of the death certificate from BDM Historical NZ. Children and surviving issue will be (should be) noted on the death certificate.
If there is no notification of death (as in his brother's service record) nothing is lost. It may then make sense to request a possible death notice look-up for the 1949 death.
Or just speculate and purchase the death certificate anyway. There can't have been that many Allan Hector McLEAN's born in 1889-90 who served in WW1 living on the East Coast.
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=10925967
McLEAN, Allan Hector - WW1 23028 - Army 1914 - 1918
agency - AABK
series - 18805
accession - W5544
box / item - 87 /
sep -
record no. - 0075137
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Search
1949/16953 - McLEAN, Allan Hector 59Y
http://www.tararuadc.govt.nz/asp/cemetery_details.asp?ID=34&PlotID=6020
Burial Record
2)
Purchase a printout of the death certifcate of Roderick Coll McLEAN from BDM Historical NZ for the same reason i.e children and surviving issue will be (should be) noted on the death certificate.
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Search
1954/32576 - McLEAN, Roderick Coll 58Y
If there are no children mentioned on either death certificate it means their sister is the last hope for this branch of the McLean name not dying out.
The only deaths for a Breadalbane McLEAN that I can find are (unsurprisingly) on Scotland's People. There are two deaths but neither match (1868-1944 and 1901-1928).
I can't find her after the 1928 Electoral Roll for Gisborne.
Three options - marriage, migration or death. Can't find an obvious marriage record, can't find an obvious death record. Would be nice if her brothers' death certificates mention children. Maybe one of them is interested in family history and has the whole tree.
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg
Yes all this info you had is the way forward and that shortened name for the sister you suggested sounded great.
If death printouts not able to be purchased then undertaker may provide answers, news papers etc
Bye
Althea
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Here's some info to be going on with.
The headstone for the 1949 burial in Mangatera Cemetery in Dannevirke reads:
Great War Veteran
23028
Rfm A.H McLEAN, Rifle Brigade
Died 18 March 1949
Aged 59 years
The burial register reads:
A.H McLEAN
Buried 20 Mar 1949
Source: NZSG Cemetery Fiche F04.12
Entry 3320
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The WW1 Service Personnel CD matches the regimental number to:
Surname: MCLEAN
Given Name: Allan Hector
Regimental Number: 23028
Rank: Rifleman
Next of Kin Title: Miss A
Next of Kin Surname: MCLEAN
Next of Kin Relationship: Sister
Next of Kin Address: Runanga Greymouth
=========================================
The electoral roll preceeding the burial is 1943.
Dannevirke is in the Pahiatua electorate.
There are listings for:
McLEAN, Allan Hector - 12 Stanley Street, Dannevirke - Labourer
McLEAN, Florence Molly - 12 Stanley Street, Dannevirke - Married
McLEAN, Allan Hector (Jnr), Rifle Range Road, Woodville
McLEAN, Hazel Amelia Mary, Rifle Range Road, Woodville - Married
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The electoral roll following the burial is 1949.
Dannevirke is still in the Pahiatua electorate.
There are listings for:
McLEAN, Florence Molly - 12 Stanley Street, Dannevirke - Widow
McLEAN, Allan Hector (Jnr), Rifle Range Road, Woodville - Labourer
McLEAN, Hazel Amelia Mary, Rifle Range Road, Woodville - Married
There is no listing for Allan Hector McLEAN
There is a listing for a Margaret MACLEAN, a widow living at 12 Stanley Street, Dannevirke
==========================================
EDIT: The following three cremation record links I gave seem to no longer be linking correctly. A ghost in the machine, perhaps. Here is the cemetery search page instead.
http://www.pncc.govt.nz/ServicesAndFacilities/OnlineServices/CemeteryAndCremationSearch.aspx
There is a 1960 record of cremation for Florence Molly McLEAN at Kelvin Grove Cemetery, Palmerston North.
Cremation Record 1 (http://www.pncc.govt.nz/ServicesAndFacilities/OnlineServices/CemeteryAndCremationDetail.aspx?id=27769)
There are also records of cremations for Allan Hector McLEAN in 1970 and Hazel Amelia Mary McLEAN in 1988
Cremation Record 2 (http://www.pncc.govt.nz/ServicesAndFacilities/OnlineServices/CemeteryAndCremationDetail.aspx?id=30838) and Cremation Record 3 (http://www.pncc.govt.nz/ServicesAndFacilities/OnlineServices/CemeteryAndCremationDetail.aspx?id=38499)
Both Allan and Hazel are listed as having a "Book of Memories".
===========================================
An assumption made is that Allan Hector and Allan Hector (Jnr) are father and son. Not too sure of that as Allan Jnr married Hazel Amelia Mary FRANKLIN in 1932 whereas Allan (Senior) married Florence McCOLGAN or WATT four years later in 1936. And I can't find a record of birth. (AFTER THOUGHT - Although that's easily solved by requesting Allan (Senior) army service record be digitised. It will/should mention Allan Jnr as he was born in 1912)
And although the cremation records of Allan (Jnr) and Hazel Amelia list different addresses, the 1970 electoral roll for Palmerston North has them both living at the same address - 385 Botanical Road, Palmerston North. Allan (Jnr) is listed as a factory worker. Hazel Amelia is listed as married. Unfortunately there are no other McLean's listed at that address.
It's all guesswork. Caveat emptor, cave cane etc
Regards
Beg
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Wow that will be alot of news for Powerhouse
Contacting the cemetery should bring them lots more success..assume that book of memoires is given to the family?? but they should have contact details
Bye
Althea
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Hello again everyone. Althea, Lu and Beg. It took me awhile to wade through all that information.
Thank you all very much for everything you have found out. No apologies needed, you have all been absolutely amazing with the research you have done. And you are quite right Lu they are my ancestors, not descendants! And you are quite right that seemingly irrelevant information might lead to clues that are missing, so carry on, you know what you're doing.
And the shortened name 'Albane' was used for my grandmother who was Breadalbane McLean, and that is her death that you found Beg in Scotland's People 1868-1944. We were told that Allan McLean in New Zealnd named his daughter after her. It's because of this odd name that I'm pretty sure we are on the right track.
I will let you know what I have.
I have the Military records of Roderick Coll. I also have his probate files containing his will and the date of his death. In it he names his 5 children. In the probate file it also names his second wife, and their child. There is also a document signed by his second wife who names his 6 children! ??
I am still interested in what ever happened to Allan McLean Sr. and where he died. I am also interested in Allan Hector and any children he had, Breadalbane (Albane) and any children she had, and Roderick Coll's children.
I going to send all the information I have to Althea in a private e-mail and she may share those with you both.
I will also purchase Allan Sr's. marriage certificate and Allan Hector's death certificate.
The 'Book of Memories' sounds interesting. Is that a NZ custom?
You know getting all this information now after having that letter for over 50 years and wondering what ever happened to that side of the family is quite, well it's quite moving. . . . so thakyou all very much again.
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Hi
The book of memories is a large book in a glass case and the pages are all dated and the page is turned over each day showing who has died and been cremated on that day,the families can put a line or two of memories if they wish,
Cheers Janette
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Thank you janette, that's very interesting; not something we have in Canada. :)
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The books were started so families who had had their loved ones ashes scattered had a place to go on the anniversary of their death and see the name in the book
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Was looking to see if there was a death for an Allan McLean prior to the 1908 wedding
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0c3d/
theres this one 1907 for old settler, bought out from Nuhaka, he is aged 77,
this is the one that I thought was the father of the Allan we wanted..but who knows maybe he married old
Remember we have this one death back before Amelia remarries, on the farming area where Allan and AMelia were.
I queried whether he was in fact the allan you wanted or is father..only his death cert would solve that
Bye
Althea
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Yes, thanks Althea. Should I send away for that death certificate, or do you want to do further research?
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And you are quite right Lu they are my ancestors, not descendants!
... it was actually Beg who provided that enlightenment. :D :D
Hi Powerhouse
Hmm .. I've just become a whole lot more puzzled in view of the dates you've given for your grandmother Breadalbane (1868-1944) ?
I'm wondering how she might be connected to the Allan McLEAN in NZ - assuming he is the chap who dies in 1907 aged 77 years and therefore was born circa 1830. ??
They would seem to be of different generations ?
I'm not suggesting that there isn't maybe a McLEAN family connection, ;) ... just curious to know where these two, who are 38 years apart in age, might fit ? :)
~ Lu
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Hi Powerhouse
Sorry ... just ignore my last reply (# 54) for the time being ... (I realise that without having further info for Allan McLEAN, you probably are unable to answer it.) ;)
But back to the beginning of this thread.
" ... information for John or Allan McLEAN. I have a letter from him .... dated Dec. 20th 1878. This is a photo of who we believe to be John McLEAN. "
Question ... * is this letter from John McLEAN ??
~ Lu
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Over the years the letter has lost the name of the sender, I had originally thought it was John, but after getting the information about Roderick Coll, I began to think it was from Allan.
We had another letter, now lost that said he had married and had a son named Coll and perhaps a daughter named Breadalbane.
I thought the letter was to my grandmother, but perhaps not.
Some of this information is coming from my mother (97) with a good memory, who remembers conversations with my father.
Whoever wrote the letter starts off by saying, My Dear Brother and Sister. . . .some of the letter is confusing when he includes another letter from John . . . .??? If you like I could scan it and send it to one of you separately. Let me know.
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Hi Powerhouse
Thanks for the explanation, it helps make things a little clearer. :)
I know how it can be with researching Scottish families and making assumptions with name associations - many of us, believe me, have "barked up the wrong trees". (And just trying to spare you the expense of purchasing records for maybe the wrong family.) ;)
I would actually suggest that you firstly obtain the 1888 marriage record (printout), for Allan McLEAN and Amelia Elizabeth WATTS.
Why ?
* because, this will contain information which Allan has himself, supplied ... e.g. his place of birth, the name of his father (and his occupation), the name and maiden name of his mother. This is the most accurate source you could hope for. [By contrast, the death cert. for Allan is less reliable, as this information will have been provided by a third party.]
* the details Allan has provided, should enable you to determine fairly easily (hopefully), his place in your family tree.
~ Lu
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I am still interested in what ever happened to Allan McLean Sr. and where he died.
Hello....one possible way of narrowing down the date of death for Allan (Senior) is to start a thread requesting the details from the Intention To Marry (ITM) notice of his widow, Amelia Elizabeth to William Ralph WILLIAMSON. Often, but not always, the date of death of a former partner is mentioned in the ITM. If it is it should be easier to locate a death certificate using death fiches, district keys and BDM Historical. The death certificate will/should mention where he is buried.
Details to give in the request are the names of the couple, including MCCREADY/WATTS/McLEAN, the date of the marriage (15 January 1908) and the location of the ceremony, the Greymouth/Buller district. In the request specify that the location is an educated guess so that if the marriage is not registered in that district the looker-upper doesn't waste any more of his/her time. (Sorry Spades :-)
An option for later in the week would be a manual search of the death fiches from 1905 (Allan mentioned in Wairoa) to 1917 (Allan mentioned as "dead" on Roderick's attestation). It might take a half-hour or so but in conjunction with the district keys and BDM Historical should help narrow things down.
And to tie up a loose end it may be worth while emailing Wairoa District council and asking them to check their cemetery database from 1905 to 1908 for an Allan McLEAN. I've dealt with them before and they're very helpful.......actually as I've dealt with them before I may as well send them an email......which I've just done. It's the weekend so I guess no reply until Mon/Tues
Regards
Beg
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And the shortened name 'Albane' was used for my grandmother who was Breadalbane McLean, and that is her death that you found Beg in Scotland's People 1868-1944. We were told that Allan McLean in New Zealnd named his daughter after her. It's because of this odd name that I'm pretty sure we are on the right track.
Hi again Powerhouse
When searching for "Breadalbane / Albane" (d/o Allan and Amelia), ... and yes, I too thought it an unsusal name .... I was very surprised that a google search brought up that christian name with a connection to McLEAN, on a number of sites. Interesting ? ;D
I'd also (earlier) checked out the children of Amelia's first marriage to Mr. WATTS. (Bear with me. :D) Sadly I found later that three had died in infancy, but the last born (1884) - indexed as "Olive Indres WATTS" - went on to marry a Thomas George NICOL in 1902. [Olive's second name is shown on all later records as "Twelves" - "Indres" seemingly an error on the birth index ?].
To cut a long story short though, Olive named her first-born (in 1903) "Albane Isabel NICOL" (very likely you would think, after her step-sister Breadalbane/Albane ) ?
[Death 1930 - Isabel Albane NICOL - aged 26 yrs.]
~ Lu
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Was looking to see if there was a death for an Allan McLean prior to the 1908 wedding
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0c3d/
theres this one 1907 for old settler, bought out from Nuhaka, he is aged 77,
this is the one that I thought was the father of the Allan we wanted..but who knows maybe he married old
Hello...Checked this because I was at the supermarket. It's near the library.
The 1907 Deaths fiche has the death of Allan McLEAN recorded in Wairoa in the Jul-Sep quarter of 1907. The folio number is 1861. I'm guessing it's the BDM Historical record 1907/5423 McLEAN, Allan - 77Y - date of death 11 Aug 1907
The newspaper clipping Althea linked to mentions Te Arai. Roderick Coll McLEAN's army service record states his place of birth as Tearai, Gisborne. (pg.22)
Regards
Beg
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I've sent away for the marriage certificate print out of Amelia and Allan. I understand it will be mailed to me so that will take awhile. I'll keep you posted!
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I am also interested in Allan Hector and any children he had, Breadalbane (Albane) and any children she had, and Roderick Coll's children.
Braedalbane Emma b 11 Feb 1891
Just following on from this. it's all guesswork so caveat emptor, cave cane etc...
The 1928 electoral roll for Gisborne has both Albane McLEAN, spinster of 55 Herbert Road, Gisborne and Albane HARRIS, married of 62 Grey Street, Gisborne. Albane McLEAN disappears from the next electoral roll (1931).
Albane HARRIS is on the 1931, 1938 and 1943 electoral rolls but none after that. There are no Harris' at the same address as her on any of the electoral rolls.
It's a bit of a leap but I think Albane McLEAN and Albane HARRIS are one and the same, partly because of the rarity of the name "Albane" but mostly because of a common year of birth.
BDM Historical reference 1945/26254 records Albane HARRIS as having died on 14 Oct 1945 aged 54. This gives her a birth year of 1891, the same as Albane McLEAN.
There is no record of this death on the NZSG burial locator CD. However the CD does list an Alvine HARRIS who died in 1945 aged 50 and is buried at Taruheru Cemetery, Gisborne.
The Gisborne Cemetery website has the following:
Surname: HARRIS
Forenames: Alvine
Age: 50
Last known address: Unknown
Date of Burial: 17/10/1945
Cemetery: Taruheru
Block: 20
Plot #: 86
Warrant Number: 5637
Inscription: No Headstone
The age is wrong, as is the first name, but the burial date seems right.I guess the next step is contacting the sexton at Taruheru Cemetery to see if there are any further details.
Ultimately, purchasing the 1945 death certificate of Albane HARRIS will be the only way to verify if this is Allan and Amelia's daughter, or if it's just another $20 red herring.
Interestingly, BDM Historical has no record of a marriage for an Albane (or variants) to a HARRIS any time from 1920 onwards. Nor the NZSG Marriages CD. Would make things a bit easier if there were a marriage to research as well.
Regards
Beg
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Does all sound very probable and too much of a coincidence with such an usual name.
Another good lead Beg ;D
BYe
Althea
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Quote from Beg:
Ultimately, purchasing the 1945 death certificate of Albane HARRIS will be the only way to verify if this is Allan and Amelia's daughter, or if it's just another $20 red herring.
I don't mind purchasing the death certificate for Albane Harris; the Canadian dollar is strong right now and only costs me approx $14.
Because the 'b' is so close to the 'v' on the key board, I wonder if that spelling for Alvane is a typing error. :-\
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Hi Powerhouse
Purchase the printout rather than the cert,it is the cheaper option,
Cheers Janette
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It's a bit of a leap but I think Albane McLEAN and Albane HARRIS are one and the same, partly because of the rarity of the name "Albane" but mostly because of a common year of birth.
Good detective work, Beg. :)
Hi Powerhouse
If you can wait a few days, I'll check to see if there is a death notice for this Albane HARRIS.
[It seems that it is the info on the cemetery database, which is incorrect - I'd be inclined to trust the BDM listing in this case. ]
~ Lu
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The 1907 Deaths fiche has the death of Allan McLEAN recorded in Wairoa in the Jul-Sep quarter of 1907. The folio number is 1861. I'm guessing it's the BDM Historical record 1907/5423 McLEAN, Allan - 77Y - date of death 11 Aug 1907
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/
"Colonist" - 24 August 1907 - page 2 - Personal
carried the following >
"The deaths are announced of ....
Mr Allan McLEAN, a well-known sheepfarmer at Gisborne. "
[There were 7 deaths for the name Allan McLEAN registered between 1894 and 1917. Several can be immediately discounted because of age - of the remaining, there are either published obituaries or cemetery records which rule them out of contention. ]
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Okay Lu, I'll wait a few days to see what you find out. Thanks everyone! :)
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it may be worth while emailing Wairoa District council and asking them to check their cemetery database
Hello...received a reply from Wairoa council today. Not a lot of info unfortunately as the record keeping a hundred years ago wasn't great.
Although an Allan McLEAN is buried in Wairoa Cemetery there's no date of burial, no record of undertakers, nor names of informants. There is also no headstone.
The only new piece of info is the plot reference number, which is 01333.
So still no conclusive proof as to whether or not it's Allan (Senior)
Regards
Beg
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On the original information I received from 'mackiwi' on Feb 2, there was posting she had found in Papers Past, Southland Times, 15th Dec 1885.
It says
'At Invercargill, on Monday, December 14th,1885, Roderick McLean, formerly of Rothesay, Bute, Scotland, aged 91 years.'
The age of this McLean doesn't match, but where he came from is where the McLean family is from.
I'm not sure if this lead should be ignored or not, but thought I'd send it anyway.
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On the original information I received from 'mackiwi' on Feb 2, there was posting she had found in Papers Past, Southland Times, 15th Dec 1885.
It says
'At Invercargill, on Monday, December 14th,1885, Roderick McLean, formerly of Rothesay, Bute, Scotland, aged 91 years.'
The age of this McLean doesn't match, but where he came from is where the McLean family is from.
I'm not sure if this lead should be ignored or not, but thought I'd send it anyway.
The Invercargill cemetery website records this death.
Try this link (http://www.icc.govt.nz/ServicesA-Z/Cemeteries/CemeterySearch.aspx?CER_Surname=MCLEAN&28893)
If it doesn't work go here (http://www.icc.govt.nz/ServicesA-Z/Cemeteries/CemeterySearch.aspx) and use the cemetery search...
At first glance I don't think they're directly related to Allan and Amelia and their children. May well be wrong.
The memorial inscription reads......
In memory of my wife
Elizabeth McGregor
Native of Glasgow
Who died at
Bluff NZ 5th Dec 1898
Aged 36 years
At rest
Also her husband
Charles McGregor
Who died at sea
17th April 1899
Aged 36 years
In loving memory of
Capt Angus McLean
Died 16th Feb 1920
In his 90th year
Also his wife Mary
Died 20th Sep 1919
Aged 87 years
At rest
In fond memory of
Richard Henry Bryant
Of Timaru
Born Aug 1 1870 died Jan 21 1932
In memory of
Roderick McLean
Native of Bute Scotland
Who died at Invercargill
14th Dec 1885
Aged 92 years
Also his grandson
Who died in Victoria
21st January 1859
Aged 13 months
Regards
Beg
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If you can wait a few days, I'll check to see if there is a death notice for this Albane HARRIS.
~ Lu
Hello Powerhouse....the amazing staff at Gisborne library have just emailed me a scan of the death notice for Albane HARRIS.
Unfortunately the only names mentioned are her two daughters so it's still not a link to Allan and Amelia.
More than happy to email a copy to you if you PM me an email address. Or if you prefer I can send it to Althea and she can forward it to you.
Regards
Beg
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If you can wait a few days, I'll check to see if there is a death notice for this Albane HARRIS.
~ Lu
Hello Powerhouse....the amazing staff at Gisborne library have just emailed me a scan of the death notice for Albane HARRIS.
Regards
Beg
Thank you for letting us know Beg.
It was necessary for me to actually order the particular newspaper film from the National Library (given that these are currently not kept on site). That process equals a delay of some days, as I'd already pointed out to Powerhouse. It was always my intention to do this look-up.
I'll now cancel the order I placed at NatLib.
~ Lu
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Hello Powerhouse...
Was just wondering if you received my replies to your emails.
A week is a long time in cyberspace :-)
Regards
Beg
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Yes, I did Beg, thank you. So sorry, I've been busy with other 'stuff' and haven't got around to answer you. I've also been waiting to receive Amelia and Allan's marriage certificate in the hopes it would give us more clues and confirm that wer're on the right track
After all the investigating you've all done, I'd feel really bad if we found out they're not the right ones!
I promise I'll keep you posted and let you know when the certificate gets here.
-
Thanks for the heads-up Powerhouse.
Fingers crossed we've been on the right track.
Regards
Beg
-
Just to let any other rootschatters know, the descendants of Allan, Amelia, Roderick Coll, Allan Hector and Breadalbane McLean may possibly have been traced. I am waiting for documentation that may help to verify. I will definitely let you know what I find out. Fingers crossed! :)
Thank you to everyone again.
Cheers,
Powerhouse
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Today I received the marriage certificate, District of Turanga, of Allan McLean, bachelor, a sheepfarmer and Amelia Elizabeth Watts, widow, a store keeper. They were married July 4 1888, at Amelia's residence in Te Arai. Allan's Residence also Te Arai.
Allan is listed as a bachelor, Amelia a widow, widowed on June 19 1887.
And wait for it . . . she was 29, and he was 58!! Who ever said "Maybe he was ond when he got married" was correct. Well done!
Amelia was born in Melbourne, Victoria
Allan born Argylshire, Scotland. (the Island of Bute is part of Argylshire)
Allan's parents were John McLean and (now it gets complicated again) Breadalbane McLean(maiden name McLean), just like my grandmother who was a McLean who married a McLean.
My grandmother was born in 1869. Allan was born in 1830.
I have a 1901 Scotland Census showing my grandfather Dugald McLean 35, and my grandmother Breadalbane 32 that also states a John MacLean 73, (then he would have been born in 1828) was living with them. He was apparently referred to by my grandmother as old uncle John.
Could he have been the John that Allan refers to in the 1878 letter, and also his brother?
I'm beginning to think that the letter I have was written to Grandmother Breadalbane's mother, and I don't know her first name. She was a McLean who had my grandmother, and as they said then 'out of wedlock' Hence my grandmother had her mother's maiden name. I don't think she ever married and I don't know if she ever had any other children. Apparently she lived in Rothesay, Bute, Scotland, and my mother thinks on High Street.
I'm trying to piece this together, but I was thrown for a loop when I saw another Breadalbane McLean
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Great news
so just to confirm - this is the right person the Allan McLean.
BYe
Althea
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It seems to be the right person Althea. He was born in the right place in Scotland, although it would have been nice had it been more specific. And again the Breadalbane name coming up again.
I'm confused again!
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Hello Powerhouse....
Here's some more grist for the mill.
I've verified none of it so caveat emptor cave cane grain of salt etc.
Coll Marriages 1821-1855
John McLEAN of Feall to Breadalbane McLEAN of Totronald - Apr 16 1822
Coll Births & Baptisms 1821-1855
Children of John and Breadalbane McLEAN
Mary - 30 Apr 1823
Donald - 13 Jun 1825
Hector - 21 Dec 1826 (mother Bredalbine)
Allan - 02 Sep 1829
Alexander - 27 Jun 1832
John - 08 Jul 1834
Flora - 21 Oct 1836
Roderick - Jan 27 1841
Source : http://www.collgenealogy.com/OPR.html
I'm beginning to think that the letter I have was written to Grandmother Breadalbane's mother, and I don't know her first name.
LDS Family Search (http://www.familysearch.org/eng/Search/frameset_search.asp)lists the mother of a Breadalbane McLEAN born 28 Feb 1868 in Govan, Lanark, Scotland as Flora McLEAN. This birth is also found on Scotland's People (http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk) and may (or may not) have more info than LDS but you have to pay to view.
Regards
Beg
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Hello again,
Coll Marriages 1821-1855
John McLEAN of Feall to Breadalbane McLEAN of Totronald - Apr 16 1822
It's handy researching such a distinctive name as Breadalbane.
At the above link to Coll genealogy there is a baptism for a Breadalbane McLEAN of Totronald on 11 Oct 1800, daughter of Donald and Ann McLEAN.
And maybe it's possible that the Donald and Ann mentioned are Donald McLEAN and Ann McDONALD of Totronald, married 10 Jan 1804, also mentioned at the Coll genealogy link.
Assuming Breadalbane McLEAN and Albane HARRIS are one and the same it's seems possible to trace six, possibly seven generations from Totronald, Scotland through to Gisborne, NZ.
Regards
Beg
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Hello again...was just trolling the web (as you do) and spotted the name Breadalbane Flora McLEAN. She died in 1968 aged 61 in Vernon, British Columbia, Canada.
If you're interested you could post a request on the Canada board asking for some advice on tracing her.
I know it's an assumption but the Canada connection plus the names Breadalbane and Flora must surely link into your tree somewhere.
EDIT:
Ooops....forgot that a link has yet to be proven between your family and the letter writer (Allan McLEAN). The obvious path is to verify that Allan's younger sister Flora is your grandmother's mother.
Here's Breadalbane Flora McLEAN's 1968 record of death from B.C Archives (http://search.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/sn-4C149E5/gbsearch/Births,Marriages,Deaths)
Vital Event Death Registration
Name: Breadalbane Flora McLEAN
Event Date: 1968 9 25 (Yr/Mo/Day)
Age: 61
Gender: female
Event Place: Vernon
Reg. Number: 1968-09-013124
B.C. Archives Microfilm Number: B13292
GSU Microfilm Number: 2034053
Regards
Beg
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I'm smiling Beg :)
I live in Vernon, BC and that Breadalbane Flora is my dear Aunt Flora and my father's twin sister, and I knew her well. I'm always amazed with what all of you come up with. And I thank you so very much!
Looking at the Coll marriages, you'll notice the birth date of the son Allan - Sept 1829. That matches to NZ Allan. He marries Amelia in July,1888, he was 58, would have been 59 in Sept. 1829 + 59 = 1888, the year they got married.
In this letter (we presume Allan's) he includes a part of a letter from John, who begins with "My Dear Brother" and goes on to say that he (John) had been talking to Roderick.
I think they were all brothers as they are in the list of John and Breadalbane McLean's children listed under their marriage 1822.
So again I think we're on the right track. ;D
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Hello Powerhouse...Quite a lengthy post (sorry) which may lead nowhere, so feel free to ignore it until you're in the mood.
Ignoring assumptions for the moment :-) I was trying to find a way to connect your paternal grandmother Breadalbane to the letter writer, Allan McLEAN, which should hopefully bring this thread to a conclusion.
I'm guessing your grandmother Breadalbane is Allan's niece, the daughter of his sister Flora.
The only way I could find to *perhaps* definitively connect niece Breadalbane and her Uncle Allan is by using Scotland's People. It will cost you £6.00 ($10.00) which gives you thirty credits.
Here's how, but it's not guaranteed to work so you may want to wait in case someone else thinks of a less expensive way.
You will be searching the Statutory Registers at Scotland's People (http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk)
Statutory Registers - Deaths 1855-2009
Fill in the following search boxes as follows:
Surname: McLEAN
Surname Option: Exact surnames only
Forename: Bread (not Breadalbane, just Bread)
Forename Option: Forenames that begin with
Year Range: 1855 to 2009
County/City/Minor Records: All records
District: All districts
Leave the other search boxes as they are.
This will return seven hits from the *index* of deaths (not the *register* of deaths). To view the seven hits will cost you one of your credits.
Two of the seven deaths listed will be your grandmother and, I'm guessing, her grandmother (Flora and Allan's mother who you found out recently was also called Breadalbane).
You said in an earlier post that your grandmother died in 1944. I'm guessing this is the *index* record "Breadalbane McLEAN, born in 1868, died in 1944, death registered in North Bute".
There is another *index* record for a (note the spelling) "Breadalbine McLEAN, born in 1802, died in 1870, death registered in the district of Govan, in the county of Lanark". I think this is your grandmother's grandmother. She and her husband John are mentioned in the 1861 census (http://www.collgenealogy.com/Census.html) aged 60 and 78 respectively but not in the 1871 census (or not that I could see).
You want to view and download the 1870 *register* entry for Breadalbane's death. Viewing and downloading an image from the death *register* costs five of your credits. Save the image to your computer.
You may also want to view and download your grandmother's death *register* entry as it may have some helpful information. This will cost another five credits.
You may also want to note down the other five hits from the *index* of deaths as they may come in handy at a later date, if you continue researching.
Halfway there....bear with me :-)
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You now want to search the birth *index* for your grandmother who you say was born in 1868.
Scotland's People (http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk)
Statutory Registers - Births 1855-2009
Fill in the following search boxes:
Surname: McLEAN
Surname Option: Exact surnames only
Forename: Brea (not Breadalbane, just Brea)
Forename Option: Forenames that begin with
Year Range: 1855 to 2009
County/City/Minor Records: All records
District: All districts
Leave the other search boxes as they are.
This will return three hits from the *index* of births. To view the three hits will cost you another one of your credits.
The only birth you're interested in at the moment is the 1868 birth of your grandmother but you may also want to make a note of the other two hits from the *index* of births as they too may come in handy at a later date.
Spend another five of your credits and view/download the image of the birth *register* entry for your grandmother.
It's a flimsy premise for such a long-winded post but hopefully (fingers crossed) there is something linking the 1868 register entry of your grandmother's birth to the 1870 register entry of your (assumed) great-great-grandmother's death. Although both birth and death are registered in the same district (Govan) and the same county (Lanark) hopefully there is something more specific. As the events are only two years apart ideally there will be a common address. Or a common informant with a distinctive name......clutching at straws?
If that doesn't work then as a last ditch effort (and to use up the remainder of your credits) you could always download your grandparent's marriage register entry.
Scotland's People (http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk)
Statutory Registers - Marriages 1855-2009
Fill in the following search boxes:
Male Surname: McLEAN
Surname Option: Exact surnames only
Forename: Dugald
Forename Option: Forenames that begin with
Female Surname: ***leave this blank***
Surname Option: Exact surnames only
Forename: Bread (not Breadalbane, just Bread)
Forename Option: Forenames that begin with
Year Range: 1855 to 2009
County/City/Minor Records: All records
District: All districts
Interestingly (or not) this brings up two hits. Both are marriages to Dugald McLEAN in 1893 and both took place in Rothesay, Bute. But one marriage is for Breadalbane McLEAN and the other is for Breadalbane McKAY. Not sure if that's a transcription error or two seperate marriages. Seems fishy.
If this marriage register entry doesn't help link Breadalbane (1868-1944) to Breadalbane (1802-1870) then the only other path I can think of is to start tracing Flora, your grandmother's mother. But that's another thread.....
......although for the record the 1871 census has Flora returned to Coll, Argyll with no mention of her daughter. Flora is aged 33 living with her brother Donald (not Donald born in 1825 but another Donald born about 1843). Your grandmother may have been raised by her Aunt Mary as the 1881 census infers (or not :-)
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg,
Just to let you know I will need a few days to sift through all the information you have sent. You have some info in there that I am aware of and I'll need to separate that from what I don't know.
So, I appreciate your research and will get back to you when I have straightened the info in my mind.
I think I need to make up a chart that I can see. I'm one of those 'visual' people.
Thanks again . . . . ;D
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I think I need to make up a chart that I can see. I'm one of those 'visual' people.
Hello Powerhouse...Agree with the visual thing so whether you like it or not :-) I've just emailed you a pdf of the tree I built up as I went along. It's bare-bones but should give you a rough idea. Hope it helps. (And hope it's not too wrong)
Regards
Beg
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I just had a quick look at your chart Beg, and by the looks of it you're not far wrong!
I will print that out and make changes if need be.
Thanks for hanging in there with me, we'll get to the bottom of this mystery man yet! :)
-
Is there anything left to find in New Zealand?
Bye
Althea
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Hello Althea...
I think there's two more connections to be proven, one in NZ and one in Scotland. And, as ever, it's all coming down to money.
The NZ connection is fairly easy to prove/disprove. Purchase the 1945 death certificate of Albane HARRIS and hope her parents are listed as Allan and Amelia McLEAN. If that's the case then likely descendants of Albane HARRIS have already been traced but I believe Powerhouse has yet to make contact. Which is a wise move until the Scotland connection is proven.
Proving that Powerhouse's grandmother is Allan McLEAN's niece is the problem. As I see it at least two but possibly as many as six BDM register images need to purchased from Scotland's People. And there's still no guarantee that any of them will help. But as they're only £1 per image I think it's a worthwhile gamble. (I wish we had something like that in NZ)
If worse comes to worst the 1911 Scottish Census comes on-line in a fortnight. It looks very detailed. Maybe the Flora McLEAN b.1837 d.1912 in Coll, Argyll is Allan's sister and is listed as living with her daughter and son-in-law who just happen to be Powerhouse's grandparents. Wouldn't that be nice :-)
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg
to save me looking at all the posts did that Albane Harris (age at death)
match the school record proof we had of
Breadalbane
born 11 Feb 1891
daughter of Allan at Nuhaka
BYe
Althea
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Hello Althea....
BDM Historical reference 1945/26254 records Albane HARRIS as having died on 14 Oct 1945 aged 54. This gives her a birth year of 1891, the same as Breadalbane McLEAN. District keys says in Gisborne.
Her death notice says "Aged 50" so I hope BDM NZ is right.
Regards
Beg
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May I add a brief comment or two?
Breadalbane McLean was the daughter of Donald McLean and Ann McLean at Totranald on Coll. She was born c.1800 and was the youngest sister of the Donald McLean who married Ann McDonald in 1804.
She married John McLean, son of Hector McLean and Flora McNiven, on April 16, 1822 and they had 8 recorded children; Mary, born c.1823
Donald, born c.1825
Hector, born c.1826
Allan, born c.1829
Alexander, born c.1832
John, born c.1834
Flora, born c.1836
Roderick, born c.1841
Of these, Mary married Archibald Campbell, son of John Campbell, sometime ferryman at Caolis on Coll, and his wife Flora McKinnon. Mary and Archibald had no issue it appears. They lived for a number of years on Bute where they both died, Archibald in 1888, Mary in 1902.
Flora also left Coll and moved to Glasgow. In 1871 she was acting as Housekeeper to her brothers Hector and Roderick in Govan, having given birth to her daughter Breadalbane in Glasgow in 1868. Flora later married a Murdoch MacKay in Glasgow in 1874 and Breadalbane went to live with her Aunt Flora in Bute, where she later married Dugald McLean in 1893. Breadalbane and Dugald had three recorded children; Charles (1902), Breadalbane Flora (1907) and Dugald Campbell (1907).
Flora McLean and her husband Murdoch MacKay had 5 children, all born in Glasgow, between 1874 and 1883.
Hector, brother of Flora and Mary, did not marry. He drowned in the River Clyde at Glasgow in July 1876.
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Hello CraigHill....
i) Welcome to Rootschat :-)
and
ii) where were you for the last six weeks :-)
You've obviously got the inside scoop on the McLeans of Coll as a few of the things you mention haven't been mentioned on the public board. I know that Powerhouse (the original poster) will love to hear from you.
I'd love to hear where you got the info from. Would you mind citing a few sources. That would be the icing on the cake.
Regards
Beg
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Wow! That was a surprise from CraigHill ;D
I have been holding on to a lot of info that I got from Scotlands people until tomorrow, when I can finally get the last piece of the link from Scotland's 1911 Census.
It will verify that Flora McKay (wife of Murdoch) from Glasgow was indeed my great-grandmother.
What I didn't know was the link to Archibald and Mary Campbell. I have an 1881 Census that shows my grandmother living with them when she was 11 years old.
Correct me if I'm wrong CraigHill, but I think you meant that Breadalbane (my grandmother) went to live with her aunt Mary in Bute, not Flora.
Thank you CraigHill for your information :) I am the daughter of Dugald Campbell McLean, and now I know where his middle name came from.
So Mary and Archibald Campbell are a significant link to the puzzle!
I think much of the information I didn't have was because of my grandmother being born 'illegitimate' and that was considered shameful back then, so was never talked about.
Thank goodness the world has changed. :)
I will look forward to any other information you have CraigHill.
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Firstly, apologies to Powerhouse; I did indeed mean that Breadalbane went to live on Bute with her Aunt Mary.
Secondly, Begclonrode asked for some sources - which I am happy to provide. There are the Scottish Statutory Records of course which include the Coll Old Parish Registers of Births and Baptisms and which are available via ScotlandsPeople. But there was also a "Church" Census carried out on Coll in 1776 and a transcription of this is available for download at www.collgenealogy.com, together with transcriptions of the OPRs mentioned above and the Coll census returns 1841, 1851, 1861 and 1871. There are a number of other resources available on this site which you might find of interest. Another useful source - certainly for the McLeans we are talking about - is the Rev A MacLean Sinclair's history of the clan Maclean published at the end of the 19th century, "The Clan Gillean". You will find mention of the Donald McLean who married Ann McLean under the heading "The McLeans of Auchnasaul". These McLeans were descended from Allan McLean of Auchnasaul, first son of the 5th Laird of Coll by his second marriage, so the line can be traced back to the first chief of the Duart family. These I think were my main sources, but others crop up, local newspapers in later times, correspondence via message boards etc.
Turning back to Breadalbane (1800 - 1870), some find it difficult to accept that she was the 12th child in a family whose first child, an Ann, was born no later than 1769. But it is possible, assuming that her mother Ann McLean married at around 16 years of age. It is true that there was another couple of the same names at Feall producing children around the same time but the baptism of their daughter Ann in 1789 is noted in the OPR with the note that she was a posthumous child, her father pre-deceased her birth.
Breadalbane's husband John died on Coll in 1863, and Breadalbane seems to have moved to Glasgow some time after that where she lived with her sons Hector and Roderick. Son John seems also to have been in Glasgow at this time although I have not come across him in the records so far. Certainly he was in Glasgow in 1870 when he registered his mother's death, and in1876 when he purchased a burial lair for his brother Hector. Breadalbane's daughter Flora presumably joined Hector's and Roderick's household, although I understand she had previously been employed elsewhere as firstly a dairymaid and then as housekeeper to a Free Church Minister. Breadalbane died in Glasgow on Dec. 10, 1870.
Breadalbane, daughter of Flora, was born in 1868 and appears in the 1871 Census as Breadalbane McKinnon - which I assume tells us the surname of her true father.
A few years ago I had a brief exchange via GenesReunited with a lady who was a granddaughter of Donald MacKay, son of Murdoch and Flora McLean. This Donald apparently had 6 children, 4 sons and 2 daughters, by his wife, a Mary Lawrie. My correspondent said that Flora's daughter Breadalbane seemed to have been readily accepted by the MacKay family and that her mother had often holidayed on Bute with her. She remembered her aunt being annoyed at being called "Aunt Album". My correspondent also said that she knew of 3 children born to Dugald and Breadalbane and said they had emigrated to Canada, c.1956.
I have tried to be as succinct as possible and no doubt have omitted something in the passing. If there is anything you think I have missed please let me know.
Where do I fit into all of this? I am a direct descendant of Donald and Ann McLean at Totranald. Their son Donald (c.1771 - 1859) was my 4xgreat grandfather and eldest brother of Breadalbane.
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I would like to thank Althea, Beg, and Lucy 2, for all the excellent research done on my behalf.
I now know who wrote the letter dated 1878 New Zealand, and have also solved the mystery of my great grand mother.
I'm delighted that I am now in touch with my two cousins in the UK that I knew 57 years ago.
Well done everyone, :-* from me.
Cheers, Powerhouse
P.S. Am I correct in understanding that my file will be kept in the Completed section of the Website and can be accessed in the future?
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Hi Powerhouse,
yes just add "completed" to your original topic line and Spades with move it to the completed section.
Cheers Janette
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Hello, I just found this forum and joined simply because I wanted to find out if you have tested your family lines New Zealand to Coll with the Clan MacLean DNA Project at familytreedna . com . It requires a male MacLean of your line to prove the line. We do have many members from New Zealand and one in particular comes to mind. His line goes back to Coll and he has a maternal connection to the clan chiefs through the Lochbuie line (I think). if you are interested, you should reply to us, depending what you already know about your line, we can suggest a few testing options for you which might save you some money.
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Yes, I'm interested. I have a brother, we are both descendants of the McLean's for Coll. My grandmother always said she was descended from the Lochbuie line.
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Hi All
My Grandmother was Margaret McLean 1938-1995, daughter of Roderick Coll McLean 1896-1954 and just trying to find out some information on Roderick's birth parents Allan McLean 1829-1907 and Amelia Elizabeth McCreedy 1859-1912, I know my grandmother was born in Reefton, west coast of New Zealand.
Kat
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School records for Bredalbane showed family moved to Wairoa end 1903
1905-6 electoral roll they are now in Wairoa
Hoping this may lead to burial area....
Bye
Althea
Maybe try Breadalbane Emma (Albane) McLean 1891-1945 14th Oct 1945 Gisborne New Zealand
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Hello Kat ... welcome to RootsChat. :)
My Grandmother was Margaret McLean 1938-1995, daughter of Roderick Coll McLean 1896-1954 and just trying to find out some information on Roderick's birth parents Allan McLean 1829-1907 and Amelia Elizabeth McCreedy 1859-1912, I know my grandmother was born in Reefton, west coast of New Zealand.
Kat
If you go back to Reply # 78 (on page 9) of this thread, you'll see that "Powerhouse" has given information from the 1888 NZ Marriage record of Allan McLEAN and Amelia Elizabeth WATTS* (nee McCREEDY). Names of Allan's parents are given, but unfortunately those of Amelia were not supplied to the thread (maybe just an oversight, I'm sure there'll be something on the actual record. ;) )
"Powerhouse" was last online here at RootsChat on 7 February 2024 ... so hopefully has spotted this new interest in thread, and will reply ?
Just adding here the link to the Probate record for Amelia Elizabeth WILLIAMSON (d. 1912) which may be of interest to you?
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE66183164
[ * Amelia E. McCREEDY is shown on the NZ Marriage Index as having firstly married John David WATTS in 1874. There were six children of that union (see further back in thread where's there's mention of this.) Victor George WATTS (son) is listed in Amelia's Will.
Just noting too that Amelia appears in some NZ records with her second name as "Eliza" (in Will of John David WATTS) and also as Amelia "Emma" in another record . ]
~ Lu
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I can give you a lot of information on Allan McLean's side of the family, but I know nothing of the woman he married, Amelia Watts. I know that when they married he was in his late 50's and she was in her late 20's, a widow with several children when they married. They had three children together.
Read Craighill's post on Tuesday 05 April 11 22:28 BST (UK) That gives you a lot of information on the McLean side.
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I can give you a lot of information on Allan McLean's side of the family, but I know nothing of the woman he married, Amelia Watts. I know that when they married he was in his late 50's and she was in her late 20's, a widow with several children when they married.
Hello again Kat
I have some new information for Amelia McCREEDY (later WATTS / McLEAN / WILLIAMSON).
Just need to decipher notes and will post here when I have done so. ;)
~ Lu
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Hi Kat
The following is the information for the Bride, which appeared on the 1888 Marriage Certificate* of Amelia WATTS and Allan McLEAN.
[ Information for Alan McLEAN as it appears on his 1888 Marriage record, was given previously on this thread at Reply # 78. Info for his bride Amelia WATTS, was not supplied (other than her birthplace). ]
I have been able to view a copy of the actual 1888 Marriage Certificate* (not the marriage record "printout" which usually offers extra details) ... and I share this transcription >
[ NZ Marriage between Amelia WATTS and Alan McLEAN ]
Marriage date: 4 July 1888
Place of Marriage : The residence of Amelia WATTS, Te Arai
Bride : Amelia WATTS
Age: 29 years
Born at : Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Status : Widow : (date widowed = 19 June 1867 1887 ) (correction made - should have read 1887)
Occupation: Storekeeper
Mother : Emma McCREEDY - Mother's maiden surname - not recorded
Father : John McCREEDY
------------------- / /
There are a number of trees at the ancestry.com website which give good information for the McCREEDY (WILSON*) family : As a lot of work has already been done by other researchers, it seems it would be better for you to make contact with them.
Just briefly ... Amelia's birth is shown under the surname of WILSON at the Victoria, AUS. BDM website. Adding link >
https://my.rio.bdm.vic.gov.au/efamily-history/65c21eca367a2425601bf130
VIC - Birth - 1859
10461 / 1859
Registered at E/Collingwood, Vic.
WILSON - Amelia Eliza McCreedy
Mother : Emma BUTCHER
Father : Joseph John WILSON
The parents had married at Essex, England in 1857. (One of the online trees has copy of the Marriage cert.)
Hope this helps.
~ Lu
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I'm a bit confused. If Amelia was 29 when she married to Allan in 1888. She couldn't have become a widow in 1867, 21 years before she got married again . Maybe that 1867 should have been 1887?
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ooops ... yes, sorry my error -- should have read 1887 : Have now corrected my post :
~ Lu