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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: sue50 on Thursday 03 March 11 20:03 GMT (UK)
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Searching for a vital piece of family history !!! Possibly my great grandad and family. They lived at 119 Athol Street, liverpool which was in the ? St Martins district. The family name was Mackie and included John, Catherine ( his wife ) and John ( 3m old son ). Can anybody help? drawn a blank so far.
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Hello Sue - when are you talking about? I had a quick look in 1911 and the Kennedy family are living there. Can you give some more information please?
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It would appear to be the 1891 census:
John Mackie, Head, M, 31, Fireman in Gasworks, Scotland
Catherine, Wife, M, 19, Ireland
John R, Son, 3 months, Liverpool
John Harcus, Boarder, S, 70, Able Seaman, Scotland
Mo
PS a very warm welcome to rootschat sue50
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the date was 1891 - i looked at the 1901 census and john was living at 1, steel street with a new wife and children !!! perhaps catherine had died or something more sinister !!!!! ??? thanks for help
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OK I have had time to delve and see the problem now. ;D
I think you are going to have to send for his birth certificate:
John Robert Mackie, March Quarter 1891 Liverpool volume 8b page 15.
The problem seems to be that father John morphs into James by the 1901 census. John could have been an enumerator error on the 1891. Catherine appears to have died in 1898 and "James" marries Annie Fairclough in 1899. James Mackie then dies in 1902. There doesn`t appear to be a suitable death in the time frame for a John Mackie.
Am I on the right lines?
Regards,
Mo
oops I typed all this before I saw your reply
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I was about to post the 1901 when i saw your reply's
Is the a chance Catherine died after the birth of her last daughter Catherine 1897.
The 2nd wife was born St Helens.
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Athol Street is in the Vauxhall area of Liverpool...it is off Vauxhall Road...local pub was The Athol Vaults..I`ve had many a pint in there ...lol
1899 Annie Fairclough married James Mackie at St Aidans church,Kirkdale, Liverpool 2015WD/2/459
marriage is on
www.lancashirebmd.org.uk
Catherine Mackie jnr is on both freebmd and lancsbmd as born in dec qtr 1896 ...registered in Kirkdale on lancsbmd , so still in Athol st then -presumably
Catherine Mackie snr dies in dec qtr 1898 aged 29 ...(so on the 1891 census , she should read as aged 21/22 ? )
he marries Annie in dec qtr 1899...
James dies in dec qtr 1902 aged 44....so that tells us he was born in 1862...he was 31 in early 1891 census
for the record Sue - I wouldn`t class Athol Street as Liverpool Docklands area ...although not that far away
allan
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Interesting - my great great grandfather Patrick Breen was also a fireman (a stoker) in the gas works, and he lived at 171 Athol Street in 1901 (41 Tatlock Street in 1891) - they may have known each other as workmates.
There are extensive papers from the Liverpool United Gas Company at Transco according to the National Archives which I fancy looking at, as they have a pensions book running from 1889 -1946, and it looks like they had a gasworks in the Athol Street area:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/records.aspx?cat=1866-nwlig&cid=-1#-1
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Gasworks was in Blackstone Street if I remember correctly Lal.....allan
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Fantastic, cheers! :) I can go and look that up on the old maps now!
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Thanks everyone for the brilliant replies and advice regarding John ( James ) Mackie. According to the 1901 census the family lived in Steel street which I cant find on any old map of liverpool - could this have been near athol street as he still worked in the gasworks??
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Try this fantastic A-Z of old Liverpool which I found a link to on this forum a few weeks back! Steel Street was right next to the gas works. http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/liverpoolaz/streets.htm#B
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Hi Lal, thanks very much for the A to Z map - you wonderful person !!!!! cheers xx
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It was Ann In The UK who posted that a few weeks back - I was delighted because I found several streets I'd not been able to place (e.g. Hook Street, Doncaster Street), because half of old Liverpool has been obliterated :(
This is another good one I found on this forum:
www.scottiepress. org - LOTS of photos on there!
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Hi Lal, thanks I have been on that website - very good site. Cheers Sue
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Hi,
I've seen a few mentions of the Athol St Gasworks. My G G Grandfather, William Harding born 1826, came to Liverpool somewhere around 1853 from somewhere in Ireland, and worked as a fireman/stoker until his death in 1884, his son, my G Grandfather, James Harding carried on the tradition, his son William George was another "company man", and retired as manager in the late 40's, early 1950's, and I remember walking down Athol St to visit them. My query is that among the other stokers there's an Irish thread, was there a common place of origin, or did the job availability get passed on through Church etc? They lived around the area in Hopwood St originally, then Orry St etc. St Alban's seems to have been their church.
I can't find my Liverpool born g g Grandmother's family name, and can only find the family on the censuses (Censi?) So I guess the only access to birth/marriage details would be through Church records in Liverpool Archives?
Pete
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Hiya Pete and welcome to Rootschat...why not start a new Thread about your g grandfather and g grandmother - post their names / dates / and info you have , and then we will see if we can find any ifo regarding g grandmothers maiden name...
so we are looking for the marriage of James Harding and the mother of William George Harding....any other info will help a lot....allan
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Hi Pete and welcome. :)
I found your family in the 1871 census and saw they had children Jane and William
Latimer Street
William Harding 47
Mary Harding 40
James Harding 17
Margaret Harding 15
Joseph Harding 11
Mary Harding 7
William Harding 5
Jane Harding 3
I searched the baptisms looking for them and found in the Catholic baptism records on Ancestry.
Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1802-1906
Name:Gulielmus Harding
Birth Date:30 Oct 1865
Baptism Date:12 Nov 1865
Parish:Our Lady of Reconciliation de La Salette
Father's Name:Galielmi Harding
Mother's Name:Maria Grimes
Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1802-1906
Name:Maria Harden
Birth Date:15 Sep 1863
Baptism Date:27 Sep 1863
Parish:St Anthony´s
Father's Name:Gulielmi Harden
Mother's Name:Maria Grimes
Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1802-1906
about Joanna Harding
Name:Joanna Harding
Birth Date:22 Nov 1867
Baptism Date:28 Dec 1867
Parish:Our Lady of Reconciliation de La Salette
Father's Name:Gulielmi Harding
Mother's Name:Mariae Grimer
(Joanna is translated to Jane and her address was either Hawkin St or Hankin St)
Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1802-1906
Name:Julia Harding
Birth Date:28 Mar 1870
Baptism Date:19 May 1870
Parish:Our Lady of Reconciliation de La Salette
Father's Name:Gulielmi Harding
Mother's Name:Mariae Grimes
So I think we can ssume her maiden name was Grimes, although no sign of Julia on the 1871 census, I did find a burial at Ford for a 7mth old Julia Harding her address was Boundary St.
This site may help with the translation of latin names into English.
http://www.from-ireland.net/irish-names/Latin-Names-In-English#display
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Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1802-1906
Name:Margaret Harding
Birth Date:14 Jul 1855
Baptism Date:19 Jul 1855
Parish:St Alban´s Church
Father's Name:William Harding
Mother's Name:Mary
Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1802-1906
Name:Maria Joanna Harding
Birth Date:21 Jun 1857
Baptism Date:12 Jul 1857
Parish:St Alban´s Church
Father's Name:Gulielmi
Mother's Name:Maria Grimes
Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1802-1906
Name: Josephas Harding
Birth Date:13 Nov 1859
Baptism Date:5 Dec 1859
Parish:St Alban´s Church
Father's Name:Gulielmi
Mother's Name:Mana Gumes
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1852
HARDING William GRIMES Mary Liverpool, St. Peter Liverpool
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My ancestor at the gasworks was Patrick Breen, and he was also born in Ireland, though as yet I've not had the slightest bit of success in finding out where, beyond a mention of Wexford in the 1911 census and that his father was named Lawrence (from his marriage cert). He and his wife and children were also Catholics.
It's possible the men and/or families knew one another as Patrick was also a fireman. I'd imagine securing a decent job like that was like winning a prize - a lot relied on casual dock labouring or carting.
As to the churches the Breens used...Patrick and Mary married at Holy Cross (he was not at the gas works at this point), children baptised at: St Antony, St Silvester and Our Lady of Reconciliation de la Salette. Our Lady's was a daughter parish of St Antonys. St Albans was on Athol Street - there's also a CofE St Albans in Liverpool - be careful!
There's a fantastic book my mum let me borrow recently (still available on Amazon): The Liverpool Docklands, Life and Work in Athol Street by Pat Ayers.
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Hi Susie, Allan and Lal
Wow and woo-hoo!!! What can I say?? Thanks for your time and help. I'd rejected Mary Grimes on the basis of believing, I think, that St Peter's was a Cof E church (What's Google for?) and having no corroborative evidence. That's given me a year to start searching from, and through the site tonight I'd also found James and Jane Sarah Wilikinson's marriage which I had known of, but not the year of 1878, and had the wrong middle name for her. Her old man, George, was a Preston born ship's engineer, he's my next objective, there can't have been too many of them around in the 50's and 60's.
William and James were both buried out at Ford, Will in a pauper's and James in a plot, and my American domiciled daughter went out to visit them a few years ago.
I promise I'll get a better research program, Findmypast is currently favourite, I guess Ancestry is better, but a bit more expensive, is it worth the difference? Both families are UK/Irish origin.
Once again thanks heaps, a great start for me on the site,
Cheers Pete
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This message is for Pete (cview 42). I have recently started tracing my family roots and I stumbled across this forum. When I saw your message regarding William Harding, I couldn't believe it as James (his son) was my Great Great Grandad! My Dad was the grandson of William Ernest Smith and Marian Gertrude Harding. I too have been unable to establish where in Ireland William Harding was from. Did you ever find out?! I'm truly shocked I have found your post although I think it was from a good while ago.
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Looking for William Harding's baptism in Ireland c1820 is tricky given that only some Irish records are available that far back however there is a baptism in Passage West, County Cork for a William Harding son of James Harding and Ann Melliford on 9th July 1820 that could be him:-
https://registers.nli.ie/pages/vtls000634966_132
The marriage at St Peter's CE Liverpool told us that William's father was called James Harding:-
Marriage: 9 Feb 1852 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancs.
William Harding - (X), Full, Labourer, Bachelor, Athol St
Mary Grimes - (X), Full, Spinster, Hornby St
Groom's Father: James Harding, Labourer
Bride's Father: Robert Grimes, Labourer
Witness: Richard Rice, (X); Alice Rice, (X)
Married by Banns by: J. F. Amos M. A. Curate
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9DF-K6YG?i=621&cat=122430
C
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Hi, Blue70!
Thank you so much for helping me with my research! I wasn't expecting anybody to reply. That is really useful information so I hope it might lead somewhere. I've only just started and I'm still getting to grips with searching different registers/databases.. it's not always easy. Thank you once again, I'm really grateful.
Kerry
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Hi Kerry,
A little more information about the surname Harding in Ireland. It's an English surname that's been in Ireland for hundreds of years and this page below shows that a lot of the Hardings were located in County Cork:-
https://www.johngrenham.com/findasurname.php?surname=Harding
The 1901 & 1911 Irish census is free online and gives the religion of residents, in County Cork most Hardings were Roman Catholic:-
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/search/
C
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Apologies for taking so long in getting back to you, I got side tracked with the other side of my family! In that case I found out that my family was from Co.Donegal! Thank you for the information. I'm a bit stuck with the Harding side of the family but I'll persist and see if there's any joy from the Cork area. Thanks again!
K
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Apologies for taking so long in getting back to you, I got side tracked with the other side of my family! In that case I found out that my family was from Co.Donegal! Thank you for the information. I'm a bit stuck with the Harding side of the family but I'll persist and see if there's any joy from the Cork area. Thanks again!
K
Records are few and far between that far back in Ireland but I would be quite happy if this was me with possibly identifying a baptism in County Cork, Ireland you may not be able to find out more but it's always nice to know where in Ireland an ancestral line came from.
C