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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Staffordshire => England => Staffordshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: walkersearch on Tuesday 22 March 11 22:20 GMT (UK)
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Siblings brought back to England in 1896 (arrived Liverpool Dec 28 aboard the Teutonic from New York). William age 5, Tom 3 & Martha Eliza 1, were accompanied by their father William Knowles.
Martha Eliza (aka Pat & Pattie) was my grandmother. Her mother had died in America during or soon after childbirth 1895 and the father returned to England a year later with the children. The town hall, housing records of births burnt down subsequently & Pat never had proof of her birth.
1907 they lived at Leslie Street, Moss Side, Manchester, & 1913 at Sneyd Green, Hanley, Staffs .
Their father, William Knowles, b 1843, remarried a woman whose first two initials were M.E.
When did he and his first wife go to America? Family lore has it they lived in New York state but I haven't found record of my grandmother's birth/baptism or her mother's death.
Will & Tom sent their sister postcards during WWI, which I have. They later had families and I would like to locate them.
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat
Their father, William Knowles, b 1843
I think you mean 1863 - he was 33yrs old in 1896
Were all the children born in the USA?
Where was William senior born?
Who was his first wife?
Have you checked the free index on the site below to see if their outward journey is recorded
http://www.ancestorsonboard.com/HomePageController.action
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Family lore has it they lived in New York state
The free 1911 index has a Tom Knowles aged 17 and a Martha Knowles aged 15 living in Wolstanton Staffs
Have you viewed that entry to establish whereabouts in the USA Martha was born?
http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/tnaform.aspx
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Thank you so much!
I was a bit shocked to find it cost so much but I found the original census form really worth it as I now know where my grandmother and her brother were born. My husband subscribes to Ancestry.ca but I had no success with my family around this period.
So thanks again for your help.
All the best,
Carolyn
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Do you know if William b 1891 was William Allen Knowles?
There is a 1911 index entry for that name in Wolstanton and he was aged 21
Births September qtr 1889
William Allen Knowles Leek 6b 308
I can't find an 1891 entry so it looks as though they emigrated between 1889-1891
There are a few William Knowles marriages in Staffs prior to 1889 but only one in Leek as per freebmd www.freebmd.org.uk
Marriages December qtr 1888
Mary Eliza Gibson Leek 6b 481
William Knowles Leek 6b 481
www.staffordshirebmd.org.uk confirm it as a Civil marriage - no church shown
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Just found the family in 1901 indexed as KNOWLER - address 80 Clanway Street Tunstall
William Knowles 36 b Leek - occ builder (employer)
Mary E 36 b Goldenhill
William A 11 b Leek
Tom 7 b America - British subject
Martha E 5 ditto
RG13 Piece 2592 Folio 104 Page 45
This is the only marriage between 1896-1901 to a Mary E
Marriages March qtr 1900
William Knowles Stoke on Trent 6b 216
Mary Elizabeth Smith
The marriage is on http://www.staffordshirebmd.org.uk and is shown at
St Matthew Etruria so can be looked up in parish records to confirm that William was a widower
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I think Mary Elizabeth Smith was also previously married
1891 census for Tunstall
Thomas Smith 30 b Tunstall - carter
Mary E 26 b Goldenhill
RG12 Piece 2159 Folio 107 Page 6
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Wow. This is so exciting!
Following your lead, I found at Tom & Martha were born in Colfax Iowa. From there I found that their mother, Eliza died October 1896 age 34. Two months later William senior took his children to England. The Jasper County Genealogical Society has lots of free information http://iagenweb.org/jasper/ :)
I will follow up on the information & links you sent me today.
Thanks again,
Carolyn
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Hi Carolyn, not sure if you already have this info but... It looks like William Snr. returned to the USA with his second wife in November 1913 aboard the "Cedric" from Liverpool to New York.
William Knowles b. abt. 1864, married, Builder.
Last permanent residence Bradford.
Final destination Boston, Mass.
Nearest relative in UK. J. Knowles, Uncle, 6 Doric Road, Leek.
Elizabeth Knowles, wife, b. abt. 1862
Jool
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Thanks for picking this up but I'm sure he returned on the Teutonic 28 Dec 1896 with William 5, Tom 3 and Martha 1. It was a flook that I found the ship's passenger list on Ancestry.ca - I'm not skilled at research - but the names, ages and the date fit together. Since then I found the place of birth for Tom and Martha was Colfax, Iowa (from the UK 1911 census) and their mother's death is registered there in October 1896. So it fits with my grandmother's story that her mother died in America when she was a baby and her father bringing the children back. William senior married Mary Elizabeth Smith in 1900.
Thanks for your message.
Carolyn
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Hi Carolyn, sorry, maybe I didn't make myself clear. I was trying to say that after he returned to England with his children in 1896, he remarried Mary Elizabeth Smith and went back to America with her in 1913. The wife's name is listed as Elizabeth not Mary Elizabeth, maybe that we what she was known as.
Who were the children living with in Sneyd Green Hanley in 1913?
Jool ;D
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Hi Jool,
sorry I'm being obtuse.
It's possible he did. Though I'd be surprised if she's the woman he married in 1900. I have a postcard to Willie, Postmark Jly 27 09 giving him "Dad's address: 79 Mumforth Street, Flint[?]", signed Ma which suggests they're not together. Then Tom writes to Pat, Postmark Jan 11 13, saying, "I wonder where Dad is but I reckon he's alright or we would hear from him."
He is not mentioned again. Maybe he did return to America in 1913.
I thought you might like to see photos Will, Tom & Pat taken around 1910. This message form has an 'attach a photograph' button but it doesn't work for me.
Carolyn
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Jool,
I've just seen the age of Elizabeth on the Cedric passenger log and it does look like the same woman. So they both went to America in middle age - brave at the time.
C
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Hiya Carolyn, I know your main interest is coming forward to find the families of Will & Tom, but I found this which could possibly be William senior in the USA. Sometimes going backwards and sideways helps you find clues.
Their ages are out, but I have seen these discrepancies many times. But the year of immigration and his trade fit.
1920 census, Alliance Ward 3, Stark, Ohio
William Knowles, head, age 50 (b. abt. 1870 England).
Parents' birth place England
Year of immigration 1913
Occupation: Brick Mason
Home rented
Elizabeth Knowles, wife, age 51 (b. abt. 1869 England)
Parents' birth place England
Year of immigration 1913
Jool
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Hi Jools,
this is interesting. If they had gone to Boston as stated on the Cedric passenger list, and set off West towards his former home Iowa, they could have settled on the way.
Thanks
Carolyn
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Hello!
I have just discovered this site whilst looking for something else!
I assume you are related to Alpheus Walker? from Wolstanton.
My Grandfather was William Allen whose father William went to the USA.
I coincidently moved to Leek 2 years ago where they came from and have been given or researched much of the family history back to 1660.
I know little of what happened after he married Smith in 1900 although my Grandfather went to live with another family and became mayor of Newcastle under Lyme and a succesful business man.
Great Grandfather William seems to have been the black sheep and was cut out of his father's will- his father also being William was a builder in Leek and left at least 16 houses between his 8 grandchildren so your grandmother must have inherited two!
Many of this side of the Knowles clan still live in the Potteries area.
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I am so glad you did come across this!
Alpheus Walker and Martha (aka Pat) Knowles were my grandparents. My grandmother said her father failed to care for her, was a gambler and drinker and that he remarried. After that she never mentioned him but spoke of her brothers with much affection. She said Will and his wife were very good to her and was very proud of his achievement of becoming mayor but I didn't remember where.
In the 1911 census: Martha & Tom are living with Mary Jane Hancock at 91 North Rd Burslem. In 1920, at age: 57 William & Elizabeth are residents of Stark, Ohio.
It's wonderful to hear about your family, my mother lost touch with her relatives in the Potteries which was a great shame. Did Tom Knowles marry and have children?
I had some great help from members of this message board piecing together the story of William Knowles, Mary Eliza Gibson and Mary Elizabeth Smith. My grandmother's collection of postcards from Will and Tom spanning 1907 to 1918 gives lots of information about where they were all living and some clues to the boys' whereabouts during the WW1.
I thought William senior's father was Joseph Knowles and would be grateful for the correct information. I've been gathering information on Ancestry.ca -The Harper Family.
Carolyn
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Hi,
you were reading early!
I will find my file and give you more info later.
Grandfather's parents were William and Mary Gibson as you thought
and William's parents also William (builder) who married Hannah Allen which is where the name Allen comes in although it was used as Alan by the time of my father.
His parents were Joshua c1795 and Martha Pickford, before that Joseph c1762 and Sarah Taylor.
Not sure where you live but we originated from Quarnford which is on the moors between Leek and Buxton.
I only recently got photos of my grandparents but that's a long story.......
I know some of the Gibson and Walker Stoke on Trent families if you need that too.
Wondered why I couldnt trace bad boy William but I use ancestry in the library where it is free so I went backwards rather than pay for the 1911 census until I was sure who was who
Vivienne
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Hello,
I am just beginning my search into my family tree and reading your posts has been amazing.
Tom Knowles is my Great Grandfather - married to Hilda Hayward.
They had 4 children and my Grandmother was Hilda Brown (nee. Knowles.)
She married Harold Brown & had one son, Alan,my Dad! Still Stoke-on-Trent based.
Any further information/advice gratefully received.
Claire
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Hi Claire,
How amazing . I had only said to my brother yesterday that it is such a shame that we know nothing about Grandfather’s brother Tom and that I was sure the family could be in the Potteries.
You will have seen the messages from Carolyn in Canada and I have been in touch with the descendants of Frederick Gibson in Iowa. (Uncle to your Tom).
I have lots of info on the Knowles history which I would be happy to share and would love to hear what happened to Tom after he, William and Martha were left with cousins in Stoke.
My email is vivienne.dixon@sky.com
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Wow, thank you so much Vivienne