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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: safarina on Monday 25 April 05 13:58 BST (UK)
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Boy, was I ever confused...I have corrected what I should have written the first time. Hope it makes more sense now.
Robert White Nicol (b. abt 1855) married Jane Scott Nov 7, 1890 in Govan, Glasgow, Scotland. They married and lived in Govan and I have found most of the 14 children's birth records at High Church, Glasgow. I have not found them on any census yet as the children were born from 1891-1910 and only 7 reached adulthood. (I'm denied access to the newer census sites)
Robert's father, Henry Nicol b. 1832 married July 14,1854 to Christina Whyte
Christina's father Robert Whyte b. 1806 m. Christian Gilmour in 1820
Here's my confusion:
???
Christina's father Robert Whyte was born Mar 10, 1806 and christened Mar 16, 1806 Kinnettles, Angus, Scotland (he m. Christian Gilmour)
The marriage dates we have (Oct 22, 1820, and also Nov 17, 1820) would have made Robert Whyte only 14 years old when he married? Is this possible, and where would I be able to find out if either of these dates are valid? I can't find them on any of the census that are available to me.
Dorothy
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Dorothy
I have found info on the poor laws concerning a Henry Nicol, parents were Thomas Nicol Mary Ramsay,
who was married twice first wife was Christina White and second was Mary Cross.
If this is your relative please let me know and I will send the details on to you
Janie
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A lot of people had the same names...so it would depend on when this Henry was married to Christina.
My Henry Nicol Married Christina in 1854, but was definitely not with her 15 yrs later. ( not sure where he was in between) This could be my answer so I should have the info..
Ramsay was used as a middle name in descendants.
Thanks
Dorothy
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Janie
I couldn't figure out what to do as far as replying back to you ....It was the first time I got a message that way and didn't see a "reply" thing???
Anyway....Thank You for the poor law info. This is definitely my family. ..and it does answer a few of our questions.
Now I wonder when Christina died?
Robert had run away from home when he was 15 and changed his name. We heard that he ran away because he didn't llike his stepfaher?? I wonder if it was his own father Henry that he was running from?
Thanks again,
Dorothy
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Hi Dorothy
Glad to be of some help. There is another application made in the name of Christina Whyte but as it contained very little info I wasn't able to match it up to your family but I do remember that 1 of her children had the name Ramsay as a middle name so the next time I am at the Mitchell I will get the info for you
Janie
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Thanks ....these are Henry & Christina's children's names. (same as on the poor law) ALso in the next generation the Ramsay name was a middle name for one of the children.
1. *ROBERT WHITE NICOL*
Male
Birth/Christening: 10 JUL 1855 (used. May 1861) CDistrict, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
2. CHRISTINA NICOL (died before age of 5yrs.)
Female
Birth/Christening: 27 SEP 1856 High Church, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
3. JANET WHITE NICOL
Female
Birth/Christening: 06 NOV 1857 High Church, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
4. MARGARET RAMSAY NICOL
Female
Birth/Christening: 23 FEB 1860 High Church, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
5. HENRY NICOL
Male
Birth/Christening: 24 DEC 1867 High Church, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Dorothy
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Hi Dorothy
If I remember right the application was made around 1866/67 and the earlier poor law applications tended not to contain a lot of info. From the info you have now given me it looks like a match so I will get the details some time this week and send it on to you
Janie
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Hi Janie,
This Poor Law Application was made Jan 21, 1889.
Yes, everything fits perfectly, even right down to the stories we heard about being a barber..doing hairdressing etc.
Also on this one it accounts for the children's marriages and whereabouts....but specifically states "cannot say where" for Robert, the one that left home at 15. (He was 33yrs old here and had distanced himself from family long before that)
What a breakthrough for me!
Thank you so much!
I'lll be watching the board...
Dorothy
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Hi Dorothy
Here is the info that I found on the poor law application made by Christina White Nicol
D-hew 10/6/34/99
Name of applicant Christina White Nicol
Address 77 Drygate backland
Place of birth 37 Rottenrow
Hour and date of inspectors visit 12.30pm 14 th August 1866
Married, housewife, deserted,
age 33, Protestant
Name and age of dependents Robert White age 11, Janet White age 9 and Margaret Ramsay age 7
Remarks When visited I saw the children but not the pauper. She is living in a miserable lodging. Left word that the poorhouse is open for her and children
Reaplies from 77 Drygate. Husband in prison. Poorhouse for her and children but did not go in.
I done a search of the applications for the children but found nothing on them
Janie
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Thank you Janie,
This is sure helping me put some of the family picture together.
I guess this is the application itself? It doesn't seem to be written out as detailed as the other one was but all the info is on it.
This event happened in 1866. Doesn't sound like Henry was a very nice fellow....
I wonder what the family did after that. I wonder if Christina could be found on the 1871 census. She would maybe be the head of the household or even remarried. The son Robert at 15 ran away from home, but Christina and at least the 3 other children should be found ( Margaret, Janet and Henry) somewhere in Govan.
Dorothy
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do these belong in your tree??
ISOBEL WHITE
Female
Birth: 21 AUG 1821 Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Father: ROBERT WHITE
Mother: CHRISTIAN GILMOUR
ANN WHITE
Female
Birth: 28 MAY 1823 Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Father: ROBERT WHITE
Mother: CHRISTIAN GILMOUR
CHRISTINA WHITE
Female
Birth: 15 NOV 1832 Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Father: ROBERT WHITE
Mother: CHRISTIAN GILMOUR
JANET WHYTE
Female
Christening: 24 DEC 1834 Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Father: ROBERT WHYTE
Mother: CHRISTIAN GILMOUR
AGNES WHITE
Female
Birth: 29 OCT 1837 Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Father: ROBERT WHITE
Mother: CHRISTIAN GILMOUR
ROBERT WHITE
Male
Christening: 19 OCT 1840 Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Father: ROBERT WHITE
Mother: CHRISTIAN GILMOUR
there are big gaps here, so there are probably a few more in there somewhere ???
also found the following in the 1881 census and thought you might find it interesting......
Dwelling: Eastwood 211 E Clyde St
Census Place: Row, Dumbarton, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203553 GRO Ref Volume 503 EnumDist 13 Page 8
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
John Gilmour WHYTE M 45 M Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Surgeon Dentist
Christina WHYTE M 44 F Edinburgh, Edinburgh, Scotland
Rel: Wife
Mary Ann WHYTE U 15 F Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
Elizabeth WHYTE U 13 F Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
Christina WHYTE U 12 F Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
Johanna WHYTE U 10 F Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
John WHYTE U 8 M Govan, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Robert WHYTE U 7 M Govan, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Adam WHYTE U 5 M Helensburgh, Dunbarton, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Margaret Park WHYTE U 3 F Helensburgh, Dunbarton, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Janet Gilmour WHYTE U 1 F Helensburgh, Dunbarton, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Mary ROSS U 23 F Banff, Banff, Scotland
Rel: Servt
Occ: Domestic Servt
Jane ARROLL U 20 F Helensburgh, Dunbarton, Scotland
Rel: Servt
Occ: Domestic Servt
kind regards,
Lorna.
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and just in case they are related....
JOHN GILMOUR WHYTE
Spouse: CHRISTINA GOWANS
Marriage: 01 JUN 1865 Tradeston, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
MARY ANN WHYTE
Female
Birth: 03 MAR 1866 Govan, Lanark, Scotland
Father: JOHN GILMOUR WHYTE
Mother: CHRISTINA GOWANS
ELIZABETH WHYTE
Female
Birth: 26 MAY 1867 Govan, Lanark, Scotland
Father: JOHN GILMOUR WHYTE
Mother: CHRISTINA GOWANS
CHRISTINA GOWANS WHYTE
Female
Birth: 11 JAN 1869 Govan, Lanark, Scotland
Father: JOHN GILMOUR WHYTE
Mother: CHRISTINA GOWANS
JOHANNA YOUNG WHYTE
Female
Birth: 27 OCT 1870 Govan, Lanark, Scotland
Father: JOHN GILMOUR WHYTE
Mother: CHRISTINA GOWANS
JOHN YOUNG WHYTE
Male
Birth: 05 SEP 1872 Govan, Lanark, Scotland
Father: JOHN GILMOUR WHYTE
Mother: CHRISTINA GOWANS
ROBERT WHYTE
Male
Birth: 04 DEC 1873 Govan, Lanark, Scotland
Father: JOHN GILMOUR WHYTE
Mother: CHRISTINA GOWANS
kind regards,
Lorna.
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Yes, thank you, these are in our Tree. The John Gilmour Whyte would be another sibling of all the ones below born to Robert & Christian (Gilmour) Whyte.
The Christina White b.1832 was married July 14, 1854 to our great grandfather Henry Nicol.
Henry & Christina split up about 1866 when he was in prison for ? (their last child was born 1867) Their first child (our grandfather) Robert White Nicol b. July10, 1855 ran away at 15 yrs of age abt 1870...He dropped the name Nicol and we then became descendants of the name "White"
Now, I'm trying to find g-grandmother Christina on 1871, 1881 census with some of the children. She may be found as Christina Nicol, or her maiden name Whyte/White or by a remarried name?? Children would be Nicol: Christina Nicol 1856, Janet Nicol 1857, Margaret Ramsay Nicol 1860 & Henry Nicol 1867. She died sometime before 1889?
Dorothy
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Hi Safarina,
Hope you don't mind, but I bought you a certificate.
It is the Death of Christina Nicol. maiden surname White.
she died 1874.
If you would like the certificate send me a private email, with your email address, and I will JPEG it to you.
Just so you learn how to do it.
I went to scotlandspeople,
and put in the deaths,
chr* wh?t*
from 1866 to 1890.
and to narrow down the field, I said Lanark,
[this brought up 35matches]
so to narrow down the field to one page,
I put age 30yrs to 100.
and the reply was, 25 matches, so I bought the page.
I went down the list, till I found a suitable,
and then went back to search for deaths,
and put the same suitable match which was,
Christina, 41yrs, High Church, Lanark.
and in the surname, I put Ni*.
and it said YES, match.
so went back to Previous searches,
and went into the death search as before, that i bought, and when it opened up, bought the match.
Doing it theis way is the cheapest, way.
1 credit for search page, and 5 credits, for certificate.
[I am telling you all this, because, I got into trouble, with copyrite, for posting the indexes.]
Good luck,
I found it a very entertaining and informative, tread.
kenjo :D
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Kenjo,
Thank you so much....I have sent my address to you and am anxious to receive the certificate.
I am so grateful for people that are willing to help each other. I wish I could get into that site myself, but I lack the requirements for access.
If Christina died in 1874, I guess the only census left to find her on would now be the 1871 with any family in the household.
Dorothy
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<snip>
Here's my confusion:
???
Christina's father Robert Whyte was born Mar 10, 1806 and christened Mar 16, 1806 Kinnettles, Angus, Scotland (he m. Christian Gilmour)
The marriage dates we have (Oct 22, 1820, and also Nov 17, 1820) would have made Robert Whyte only 14 years old when he married? Is this possible, and where would I be able to find out if either of these dates are valid? I can't find them on any of the census that are available to me.
Dorothy, one of the marriage entries in the IGI (17 Nov) is an extracted entry transcribed from the parish register. You could order in the film of the relevant parish to your nearest Latter Day Saints Family History Centre and see the full entry. It may well not contain any more information - but, unless you look at it, you won't know.
The other entry (22 Oct) is an entry submitted by a member of the LDS; these need to be treated with care.
However, the confusion of dates may simply be because banns were called before the marriage - so there can be several dates associated with a marriage record in a parish register.
Yes, it is possible (though unlikely) that Robert could have married at the age of 14. Marriage (parental consent was not needed) was legal (though not usual) at the time in Scotland for males at age 14 and females at age 12.
However, are you quite sure that you have the correct birth and christening for Robert? How do you know that the Robert born and baptized in 1806 in Kinettles is the same person as the Robert married in 1820 in Glasgow?
JAP
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JAP,
Thanks for the interest and help...
Explanation of what we understand to be:
Our Henry Nicol b abt 1832 married Christina White b. 1832...who was the daughter of Christian Gilmour married Nov 17, 1820 to Robert Whyte b. Mar 10, 1806....and this Robert Whyte was the son of Robert Whyte and Janet Ramsay, both born in the 1780's (both Robert's and Janet were born in Kinnettles, Angus, Scotland)
The family shown in below post with Isobel being born in 1821 also shows that the 1820 marriage would make the father Robert b. 1806 very young.
The confusion of his young age remained because the dates for birth/ christening and the marriage are from Parish records.
Dorothy
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Kenjo
Thank you for the mail and the added comments later.
I saved the JPEG and now have it printed out for my files.
This helps to answer some questions as to whether Christina was still the wife or if rumors of a 2nd marriage took place.. It looks like she was still married to Henry Nicol at the time of her death.
It's funny how stories change and become distorted as they are passed down through the generations.....a story of remarriage had sent me off on a wild goose chase!!
We understood that the son Robert 'White' Nicol b. 1855 had run away from home to get away from his step-father in 1870?? Now, I wonder if it was his own father (abusive possibly) he ran away from, or if another man was in the picture for awhile....We may never know the answer to this one...
Thanks again for your help,
Dorothy
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<snip> Christian Gilmour married Nov 17, 1820 to Robert Whyte b. Mar 10, 1806....and this Robert Whyte was the son of Robert Whyte and Janet Ramsay, both born in the 1780's (both Robert's and Janet were born in Kinnettles, Angus, Scotland) <snip>
Hi Dorothy,
Yes, that was what you had set out in earlier posts about your understanding of the relationships.
However, my question was - do you have any proof that Robert WHYTE who married in Glasgow in 1820 is the same person as Robert WHYTE born in Kinnettles, Angus in 1806?
I now see that this same question had already been asked on your thread on the identical topic on the Beginners' Board. Little Nell wrote there on 25 April "Before you claim the 1806 birth as the Robert who married in 1820, do you have some sort of proof that the two are the same person?"
Unless you have definite proof, doesn't it seem a little unlikely that a person marrying in Glasgow in 1820 would be a 14 year old who had been born in Angus in 1806?
Regards,
JAP
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Start all over again from scratch??
We have family papers (proof) of the below "relationship" (but, no birth & death dates for Thomas Nicol abt 1800, or Henry Nicol abt 1830) & are searching (we can't go farther back without more info on them)
FATHER--Robert White b. 1910 (m. Mary Turpett) is the 14th child of:
GRANDFATHER--Robert 'White' Nicol b. 1855 (m. Jane Scott) (left home- changed his name to White in 1870 )..is the son of:
G-GRANDFATHER --Henry Nicol 1830? (m. Christina Whyte/White) is the son of:
G-G-GRANDFATHER--Thomas Nicol 1800? (m. Mary Ramsay)
The confusion all "started" when we tried to determine why so many of our descendants had "Ramsay" as a middle name...Before we received papers confirming a "Mary Ramsay" had married our g-g grandfather Thomas Nicol, we had claimed Christina's husband's line as being one with a Ramsay marriage in it....BUT, to me, the 14yr old marrying didn't sit right. "I" don't have proof of this being Christina's husband Robert Whyte's line, other than the fact that I agreed it looked like all the names etc fit the picture.
Now, I am so confused as to where to begin again (my mind is not a young one & often wants to just give up!!)..but I don't want to add false information to our TREE. Maybe we should just leave that branch alone and concentrate on our NICOL line? (We have now found that the middle name of 'Ramsay' being used is likely to be from our g-grandmother "Mary Ramsay".
Thanks to all that are trying to help me sort this out..
Dorothy
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Dorothy,
That is very well put,
It all makes sense now,
the Ramsay being from the nicol line.
You will have to forget about the child marrying,
I feel as you would now that the White line, comes from around Glasgow.
One other thing I noticed,
Your Robert White Nicol, named his first born after his notorious, father, and repeatedly used Nicol in his childrens names, this doesn't sound like a man who hated his father.
I'm just adding more confusion to the pot ;D
I will look for the family in the 1871c, for you now, must put you out of your misery,
kenjo ;)
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Hi,
I doubt if any one could add more confusion to the inconsistant stories (or lack of stories) in the family. We do know now that with the Poor Law applications & the little bit of info on them that there was a family problem around 1866...and that much later (1889) after Christina died and Henry remarried that Henry had a problem with substance abuse (alcohol).
The problems that occurred to make Robert Nicol White run away may have been dealt with, put behind them, and as an adult rebuilt a relationship with his father.
The only living relatives that would maybe know the story would be the descendants that remained in Govan, Scotland ..and we have no information at all on Archibald White (one of Robert White and Jane Scott's 14 children) who married Margaret 'Peggy' ?? except that they had one daughter named "Betty"
Thanks for the interest and help,
Dorothy
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Kenjo,
Well...!
Knowledge now is that at Census time in 1871, Robert White Nicol was still living with his parents Henry & Christina Nicol, his 10 yr. old sister Margaret and 3 yr old brother Henry. ( a sister Christina died young and a sister Janet b. 1857 is not with them either)
Robert is 15 on this census, so he would have left home after census time and then dropped the "Nicol" as his name. The next records I have of Robert "White" are his Army papers --enlistment in 1878 etc...and his marriage certificate of 1890 to Jane Scott. (dau. of Archibald Scott and Ann Henderson)
We know that Christina died Aug 29,1874, but don't know when Henry Nicol died. (he remarried after his wife's death to Mary Cross)
Now need to search for Henry's actual birth and death dates....He listed Thomas Nicol and Mary Ramsay as his parents on the Poor Law application in 1889. (have no info on them yet)
Just trying to post a picture for myself & anyone else that might be following this thread and end up as confused as me.
I have no idea now who Christina's husband's family is---but think I should scrap all the info I had on what was thought to be the line.
Thanks to you and to everyone trying to help me sort this all out.
Dorothy
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Hi,
I didn't know if I should continue here or start a new topic, as I now would like to see if I can find Henry Nicol's birthdate and something about his parents. (This doesn't really go with the "Topic" I originally posted here, but information relating to it is here in these previous posts)
(What would you suggest I do to seek help here?)
On the Poor Law it states that Thomas Nicol and "Mary" Ramsay are Henry's parents, and I have been trying to find a record of their marriage.
The only thing I came up with is a marriage of Thomas Nicol and a "Margaret" Ramsay in 1830 which would be the right timing for Henry having been born approximately 1830. Would there be a record of who this couple's children were.....and is it possible that it would be Margaret instead of Mary. (you would think Henry would know who his own mother's name was to put on an application form?)
Safarina
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this is the only child i can see on the igi for this couple. :-\
THOMAS NICOL
Spouse: MARGARET RAMSAY
Marriage: 03 DEC 1830 Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
MARGARET MCKELLOP NICOL
Female
Christening: 25 OCT 1836 Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Father: THOMAS NICOL
Mother: MARGARET RAMSAY
kind regards,
Lorna.
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Thanks,
I guess I will still have to find a Thomas Nicol that married a "Mary" Ramsay with a son Henry...right about the same time.
There's a possibility that the age of 55 for Henry Nicol on the 1889 Poor Law application is incorrect....and that's all I have to go on right now to estimate Henry's birthdate. (but he could have been born later than the only child listed with Thomas & "Margaret")
Henry Nicol married Christina White 14 JUL 1854 Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland.....so I thought maybe he was born about 20 yrs earlier??
Safarina