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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: Phodgetts on Wednesday 15 June 11 18:15 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone, I am trying to determin who the parents of Richard Millington Perks were. Richard was born in 1769, Birmingham and I have been unable to find his parents thus far. He married Ann(e) Snape 31 May 1790 at St Martin's, Birmingham. I would love also to find out who his grandparents were on his father's side, going further back hopefully one if not two generations. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I am befuddling myself trying to work this one out. So Many threads, so many loose ends and not enough grey cells! ::)
Philip
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Hi Phillip, is he the Richard aged 70 living with John and Lucy Perks and family on the 1841 Census in Birmingham, if so he is shown as not born in county?
Keyboard86
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Thank you kb86, that is correct. I have only just seen the 1841 for the first time myself.
I have g**gled Richard Millington Perks and some descendency is shown, but nothing about him before he had his own family. I would like to punch a hole in that little wall. Hopefully he has such a unique name that it might pop up somewhere in the parish records held by the good folk on here. :)
Philip
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Hi
I have not found a baptist record for Richard Millington Perks but I have found one for a Henry Millington Perks
Bap 28 Sep 1776
Holy Cross Shrewsbury Shropshire
Father Richard Perks
Mother Sarah Perks
Could this be a brother ?
Margp
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Yes MargP, that looks very promising doesn't it. *I hope more info comes to light on this one. It really is on the fringe isn't it.
Philip ;D
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Hi Phillip, there are a couple of Public Members Trees on A******y which seem to suggest his parents were John and Eleanor nee Porter, and this marriage:-
John Perks to Eleanor Porter 2nd August 1764 St Martins Birmingham.
Keyboard86
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Hi
There are quite few trees on A*****y for Richard Millington Perks all have him born 2 Oct 1769 died 16 Oct 1842 Birmingham Father John Perks mother Elanor married to Ann Snape one in particular as his name as George (Richard) Perks.
Margp
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The marriage of John Perks 1790 has him married to Hannah Hankins,widow.One of the witnesses was elen Perks.
The marriage between John Perks & Eleanor Porter states he's " of this Parish" but this doesn't mean much as it means he only had to be there 3 weeks.
He's listed as a cabinet maker & one of the witnesses is Mary Porter.
They had a child George christened Oct.2 1769.
I'll say that again,Richard Perks=Ann Snape,both signed own hand & state of this Parish,no family members are witnesses.
jim
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I have seen the Anstry (why do we bother hiding these big names when they are advertised on the headers of the forum pages?) trees, not all but some. One of them does have John Perks and Eleanor Porter, which is great. I would dearly love to have confirmation. But beyond them, mention is made of a William Perks of 1718 (no other details) and a Thomas Perks of 1696 (again no other details), and then the tree blossoms out with William Perks of 1631 and his wife Mary and a list of individuals that go all the way back to 1005 and the D Avranches! Is that possible? :o I know I haven't done the research but it would be astonishing if this does accurately show some of my lineage. So I am just quietly trying to ascertain one step at a time, if the rather tenuous links via Richard / John , Eleanor / William and Thomas are provable. I do not have any resources other than Ancstry and free online stuff like IGI and my experience of doing all this family history stuff is very limited especially beyond the 1841 census. So I turn to you guys and gals for some sort of support and guidance in the hopes that this little lot is actually even remotely correct, because in this instance I am just a little bit doubtful. I have emailed the tree owner in question for some sort of confirmation of sound research, but so far with out response ??? If it is correct I have lineage with the De Somery's of Dudley Castle and Lady Jane Grey and John Dudley! You can see why I want some sort of clarification. One cannot just accept someone else's research at face value. It could be very exciting though! ;) I might be in line to inherit a zoo! ;D
Philip
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the interesting thing about Ancestry trees in how people sew them together like a patchwork quilt.
John & Eleanor didn't have a son called Richard in 1769,his name was George & he was born in B'ham,whereas Richard states he was born outside of the County.
Although it's says he was 70 ages were rounded down to the nearest 5 in 1841 so he could have been 74.
MargP's info looks the most interesting at present.
jim
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Yes, the stitching together of trees. My own experience has been when connecting with other people's trees, I have come across some which for whatever reason have been copies on mine 'warts and all'. Obviously I have been ironing out my research and trying as I am now to find out the true facts, but the other trees which are copies of mine are not being updated, so they are riddled with errors that are not being corrected. So I am dubious just to take it at face value. However I have found (just minutes ago) one tree with images posted of parish info at Bearley associated with the Perks, so perhaps someone else is closer to the mark. I think this is going to take a while. I am very grateful for all your help ;D
Philip
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The only lead you have is the relationship with John Perks B.1814 B'ham.
There are a couple of candidates born B'ham around this time,however in order to find his father you would have to get his marriage cert.John Perks=Lucy Tilsley/Mar.1838/Solihull/16/405 & then try & establish a connection from there.
jim
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Hi Philip
I think Jim is right the only way forward is to get the marriage for John and Lucy, I have found a marriage for a Benjamin Millington Perks married 12 Aug 1828 Saint Martins Birmingham to Martha World no parents names given.
Jim
I see that you have the name Coley in your tree are they from the Netherton area of Dudley my grandmother was Ellen Coley.
Marg
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The 1828 Marriage doesn't list any Perks witnesses,they being John & Diana Bough.
Marg
I'm aware of the Dudley Coleys but no relation as far as I can tell,mine are from King's Norton.
Edit:
I think we may be getting somewhere,there's a John Perks b.1813 B'ham,parents Thomas & Jemima,they had a large number of children most being christened in a batch in Oct.1830,one of them being a Thomas Millington Perks b.1816.
So we now have a Richard,Benjamin & Thomas all with middle name Millington (+ Henry in Salop) & Richard living with the brother (John) of Thomas M Perks.
jim
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I think this is what we have so far:
Richard m Ann Snape 1790
Children:
Thomas b.1790
Ann b.1792
Henry b.1795
(There may be others I haven't found yet)
others:
Samuel b.1797
Richard b.1799
Dinah b.1800
John b.1802
Sarah b.1806
Josiah b.1808
Benjamin(Millington) b.1809
Jemima b.1812/d.1816
Thomas m Jemima Hirons 1812
Children:
John b.1813
Thomas Millington b.1816
Jemima b.1818
Matthew b.1820
Mark b.1821
Kezia b.1823
Karenapuck b.1826
Rachel b.1827
Naomi b.1829
John m Lucy Tilsley 1838
1841 Richard is living with John who would be his Grandson.
jim
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This puts a new light on things, so you think John's parent's may be Thomas and Jemima and not Richard and Ann, the only way we will find out is if Philip sends for the marriage record.
Marg
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There is no John born to Richard & Ann b.c. 1813 that I can find but you are correct that the marriage cert. will confirm the father.
It's the Perks/Millington link that I can't find.
Edit:found these children to Richard & Ann:
Samuel b.1797
Richard b.1799
Dinah b.1800
John b.1802
Sarah b.1806
Benjamin b.1809
Jemima b.1812
jim
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The 1828 Marriage doesn't list any Perks witnesses,they being John & Diana Bough.
I take it back Diana (Dinah) Bough witness at Benjamin Millington Perks marriage was also witness at Sarah Perks marriage along with husband John,
Dinah,Benjamin & Sarah were siblings & children of Richard & Ann.
Marriage:
Dinah Perkes=John Bough/June 30/1823/Harborne.
jim
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Thank you so much for the time and effort you have taken to help me thus far. I am correct in plotting the tree as is?
Philip
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Please ignore the death date for Rachel Perks. I am having great difficulty identifying her after 1881.
Philip
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This is Thomas Perks family group sheet with room for adjustments.
I wondered also if the Karenapuck is just some written form of the Midlands accent for Karen Perk(s)
It does throw up some strange things doesn't it.
Philip
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Karenapuck or the correct spelling Keren-Happuch is an old Hebrew name,she calls herself plain old Keren on her marriage entry.
John Perks & Eleanor Porter aren't Richards parents,they had a son George born 1769 & someone has made a leap over common sense & hammered them in.
Rachel Hunt nee Perks is a patient in the Workhouse in 1901 so I think the 1905 death is the right one.
These are Richard & Ann's children from page 2.11 in total.
b]Richard[/b] m Ann Snape 1790
Children:
Thomas b.1790
Ann b.1792
Henry b.1795
(There may be others I haven't found yet)
others:
Samuel b.1797
Richard b.1799
Dinah b.1800
John b.1802
Sarah b.1806
Josiah b.1808
Benjamin(Millington) b.1809
Jemima b.1812/d.1816
There's no evidence Richard was born in 1769,all it states is he was 70 in 1841 giving a birth range of 1767-71.
jim
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All this information is fascinating. What indexes are you using to get the information?
Philip
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The BMD I'm getting from the St.Martin's PR's.(disc)
I also have a Benjamin Millington Perks (aged 14 months) death entry for 1830 from the NBI.(disc)
Ancestry & IGI are the others.
jim
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found an interesting marriage:Ann Perks(28)=John Howith/Father George Perks.Witnesses John & Lucy Perks.This would be the John & Lucy nee Tilsley Richard is with in 1841.Who are Ann & George?Is he the George born 1769 to John Perks & Mary Porter?
A red herring I think,she came from Preston Bagot & had a brother & sister called John & Lucy.
a couple of Perks marriages for you.
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Oh, wow, thank you! That is definitely my Rachel Perks and John Neal. Later (1864) she married Charles Hunt. That is one of the knots that took me a little while to see through.
An interesting point is that Rachel's father being a steel toy maker....... they apparently were not children's toys as we know toys to be but small items like snuff boxes and other little pocket items that were often gilt or engraved.
Philip
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That marraige between Keren and William Skinner has floored me because when I check the marriage and try to cross reference it on Astry I get William Skinner as Q4 1845 Birmingham vol 16 pg 473 but the only matching reference the other way is for Kezia! Am I being obtuse? Perhaps it would be better for me if you didn't answer that ???
Philip
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I noticed it said Kezia as well.As Keren isn't really a name it was probably mistranscribed, as Kezia looks similar,although on here it's obviously Keren.I noticed also on the Ancestry trees she's Karen.You're the only one that has it right.
"Toy" making was a common trade in B'ham,James Watt being the most well known.
jim
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Another question for you. Is the marriage of Thomas Perks and Jemima Hiron also in amongst that list? They were married 31 August 1812 but on the IGI there is no mention of the bride or groom's parents.
Philip
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Father's names weren't included pre 1837 on marriages.
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Thanks ever so much Jim....... ;D Don't know how I'd get by without the help of all the good folk on RootsChat.
Philip ;D ;)
PS I notice your Gay family in Lancashire. Whereabouts did they live?
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William Seddon Gay married into the family,he was from Richmond Surrey,they moved to Manchester early 1900's.
jim
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And then... dozey me, never asked about what image was available for my 3 x Gt Grandmother Rachel Perks (Neal) and Charles Hunt, after all she is the one that is most important to me. Is there any info and image for them?
I also wonder about the 8 children all being christened on the same day in October 1830. Was that kind of large family event 'normal'? I'd have thought that Thomas and Jemima would have all their kinds christened early in life and quite soon after each was born, especially since they had the experience of losing Richard as a baby. Son Thomas was 14 and Naomi just 1 year old when they were christened. I had wondered if there was a change in religion or denomination but the parents were married at St Martin's the same place as the christenings, so it seems as though they just left for a while.
I am going to have visit St Martin's and get me some photos of the place.
Philip
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Multiple christenings were quite common but so many in one go isn't.
With child mortality rates so high it was a big risk leaving it as late as this.
There may have been pressure brought to bear by the Rector.
Rachel's 2nd. marriage took place in St.Peter's & St.Paul's in Aston.
There are plenty of photos online of St.Martin's,it's the oldest church in B'ham.
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When I looked at this address,Cock St. it didn't seem right & on looking at my 1860's street index I found it doesn't exist.
I think it shoud be Cox St.
The other info. of census & addresses of the 2 girls marriages puts all 4 known addresses in the same area of NW B'ham.
Cox St. address on the christening PR (1830)
Pope St. is where Richard was living with G/son also Thomas was living there.(1841)
Livery St. address on Keren's marriage cert. (1845)
Tower St. on Rachel's marriage cert. (1850)
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Thanks Jim, it is wonderful to see the locations they lived in, in relation to each other. All within walking distance. One can imagine the grand kids popping off round the street corner to go visit aunts and uncles and grandparents, just to go see them when in fact the mission was for to go get a penny (I know because I did myself haha!) perhaps attending the same church and worshipping together. Being close enough to meet up for annual parties and celebrations if they were that ilk of family. Not like today when families are spread over vast distances and are lucky to see oneanother even once a year. I know from my own extended family across the world how difficult and expensive it is to see them regularly, i.e. the USA and Oz besides being spread across Britain.
Philip ;D
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Families needed each other more then.Rachel lived in Hospital St. after her marriage to Charles Hunt which is in the bottom RH corner.
I also have family that lived in Cox. St. at this time & lived there for a number of years.
jim
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When I looked at this address,Cock St. it didn't seem right & on looking at my 1860's street index I found it doesn't exist.
I think it shoud be Cox St.
The other info. of census & addresses of the 2 girls marriages puts all 4 known addresses in the same area of NW B'ham.
Cox St. address on the christening PR (1830)
Pope St. is where Richard was living with G/son also Thomas was living there.(1841)
Livery St. address on Keren's marriage cert. (1845)
Tower St. on Rachel's marriage cert. (1850)
I known this is an old thread, but, I thought I would add to it for clarity.
Cox Street, as it is known today, is off St Paul's Square and links it to Livery Street. It is certainly where Thomas and Jemima Perks along with their children were living in 1830.
In 1810 John Kempson surveyed and produced a map for the Commissioners of The Street Act showing the Town and Parish of Birmingham. The map shows the road between St Paul's Square and Livery Street as Cock Street. The 1834 Map of Birmingham, drawn and engraved by John Dowler, also shows the road as Cock Street.
Although it didn't exist in the 1860s it certainly did when the Parish Register entries for the baptisms of Jemima's children were made in 1830.
Source: Birmingham A History in Maps. Author: Paul Leslie Line. First published 2009.
The History Press, The Mill, Brimscombe Port, Stroud, Gloucestershire, GL5 2QG
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I know I am very late to this thread but did anyone find any further information on Richard Millington Perks? I have him in Shropshire but can’t find any further information about him. He’s my 5x great grandfather.
Thanks