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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Norfolk => Topic started by: shearg on Sunday 26 June 11 06:25 BST (UK)
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Hi All,
Just trying to help a cousin find his father on the above census, hoping to find his grandfather's name.
His name was Alf BIRCHAM who was born in 1890 in Lavenham.
If anyone could find this 1 year old on the census that would be great.
Thanks,
shearg
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lavenham is in suffolk not norfolk
there are only 2 alf/alfred bircham births in suffolk between 1837-1915 that i can find
one in 1909 and one in 1915
there are 4 in norfolk between 1837-1915 that i can find
1854.
1855
1872
1875
where did you get the info that he was born in 1890 in lavenham
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there is this however in 1901
RG13/1748/98/2
edward sillitoe age 30. b. manchester, occ. matting maker.head
rose age 38. b. lavenham. occ. horse hair weaver. wife
ivy age 1. b. lavenham. daughter
edward james age 3mnths. b. ditto. son
maud bircham age 17. b. ditto. occ. housemaid. daughter
minnie bircham age 16. b. ditto. occ. horse hair weaver. daughter
lizzie bircham age 13. b. ditto. daughter
fred bircham age 12. b. ditto. son
alfred bircham age 11. b. ditto. son
living at;59,high street,lavenham,suffolk
from this i would take it the bircham children are the children of rose but not the children of edward
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this makes it a bit clearer
1891
RG12/1445/109/17
charles mann age 51. b. lavenham. occ. mat maker. head
rose mann age 28. b. ditto. occ. horse hair weaver. wife
maud bircham age 7. b. ditto. step daughter
minnie bircham age 6. b. ditto. stepdaughter
elizabeth mann age 3. b. ditto. daughter
frederick mann age 2. b. ditto. son
alfred mann age 2mnths. b. ditto. son
living at;pump lane,lavenham,suffolk
reg.dist; cosford
so the birth would be under alfred mann not alfred bircham
birth index
name; alfred mann
y.o.r. 1891
qtr; jan/feb/mar
dist; cosford
vol; 4a
page; 735
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Thank-you Wozzle for all your help.
You found the right family but now we wonder why Alfred had the last name of Mann on the 1891 census but changed to Bircham by the 1901 census. It looks like I have a bit of tracing to do between the Bircham/Mann/ Stilloe families.
Thanks again,
shearg
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i am wondering whether rose ever actually married charles mann or edward sillitoe ican find no marriage of a charles mann to a rose ---? or a marriage of an edward sillitoe to a rose ----?
on her death index in 1936 her name is down as rose bircham
interestingly there is no birth of a rose bircham in cosford reg dist
there is a birth of a rose long in cosford in 1863
this rose long has a sister sarah.a.long born c1856
charles mann marries a sarah long in 1879 in cosford reg dist
i think you might need sherlock holmes to figure what is going on
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bingo?
marr index
name; rose long
y.o.r. 1882
qtr; oct/nov/dec
dist; cosford
vol; 4a
page; 1027
on the same page; george william burcham
death index
name; george william burcham
y.o.r. 1885
qtr;apr/may/jun
dist; cosford
vol; 4a
page; 384
age at death; 31
est birth year; 1854
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george william burcham's parents were robert/rhoda burcham. george was born in bungay,suffolk
robert was an innkeeper in ditchingham,norfolk in 1861
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this gets stranger by the minute
charles mann and sarah mann are together in 1881,1891,1901 census
so the charles mann who is with rose in 1891 cannot be the same as the one who married rose's sister sarah long
also if you have a look at reply 3 i have amended it to show charles as aged 51 not 31
i am now almost certain that the charles mann whom rose is with in 1891 is in fact the father of the charles mann who marries rose's sister sarah long
so the question still remains who is alfred burchams father
if i had to bet on it it would be charles mann (the elder of the 2)
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the elder charles mann dies in 1892 in cosford reg dist aged 52
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you could get the birth cert of alfred mann
that might tell you a bit more
we know that almost certainly alfreds mother is rose burcham nee long
apart from all the censuses for rose long born c 1863 and charles mann born c 1841
i think that is as far as i can go
if you want me to post the censuses then i will do so
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Hi Wozzle,
I came up with the same conclusions as you did concerning the Charles Mann first marring Sarah Long and then Rose is living with him on the 1891 census but I never thought of the Charles being father and son, but then I didn't have the 1901 or the 1881 census returns. I figured Sarah & Rose were sisters but couldn't find a birth for Sarah in the Cosford Dist. I found Rose's bith in March Qtr. 1863 in Cosford.
I couldn't find any marriage for Rose either to Charles Mann or Edward Sillitoe no matter what kind of combinations I used or I have to agree with you that there was never any marriages. I think that was very common in those days.
I found the marriage to George William Burcham and his death too but thanks for just confirming. It was great you found his parents so that will take my cousin back another generation . My cousin said his father would never talk about his own father and maybe with all that you found we now know that was because he was never sure who he was. His father Alfred came to Canada around 1909 so if you can help find what ship he came on or when or where he landed that would be a great help. I found his Western land Grant that he applied for in Saskatchewan so we can send for that as well as his birth certificate.
Again thanks for all the help. You have been just great in suppling all this info.
shearg
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I just read your last message and would love to have the census records if it's not too much trouble.
Also I found Sarah Mann's death in the Dec. Qtr. 1886 in Cosford 4a 370 at the age of 24 meaning she was born in 1862. She could of been Charles, the son's wife and Rose's sister.
Thanks,
shearg
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will have to do it tomorrow
off to work shortly
mick
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1871
RG10/1721/17/2
robert long age 45. b. suffolk. occ. agr.lab. head
maria age 39. b. lavenham. wife
ellen age 20. b. lavenham. occ. horse hair weaver. daughter
sarah.a. age 16. b. dito. occ. horse hair weaver. daughter
william age 12. b. ditto. occ. errand boy. son
rose age 9. b. ditto. daughter
frederick age 1. b. ditto. son
living at;shilling street,lavenham,suffolk
reg.dist; cosford
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1881
RG11/1833/55/22
robert long age 54. b. brent eleigh,suffolk. occ. agr.lab. head
rose age 18. b. lavenham. occ. horse hair weaver. daughter
frederic age 11. b. ditto. son
laura age 8. b. ditto. daughter
bertie age 5, b ditto. son
living at;shilling street,lavenham
the mother maria is visiting her eldest daughter ellen in 1881
1881
RG11/558/34/16
william.j.herrington age 25. b. bilston,surrey. occ. coffee tavern keeper. head
ellen age 29. b. lavenham. wife
clara age 8. b. bilston,surrey. daughter
flora age 6. b. ditto. daughter
mina age 2. b. london. daughter
maria long age 49. b. lavenham. mother(obviously should be mother in law)
living at;leather market coffee tavern,weston street,bermondsey,london
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1841
HO107/1011/17/25/14
charles mann age 25. occ. ostler or glover. born in county
elizabeth mann age 25. not born in county
charles mann age 1. born in county
living at; lavenham,suffolk
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1851
HO107/1790/198/23
charles mann age 38. b. lavenham. occ. glover. head
elizabeth age 39. b. gesingthorpe,essex. occ. straw plaiter. wife
charles age 11. b. lavenham. occ. straw plaiter. son
emily age 8. b. ditto. daughter
harriett age 2. b. ditto. daughter
living at;lady street,lavenham,suffolk
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1861
RG9/1134/28/9
charles mann age 21. b. lavenham. occ. hair weaver. head
sarah age 18. b. ditto. wife
charles age 1mnth. b. ditto. son
living at;church street,lavenham,suffolk
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charles mann marries sarah willis in 1860 in cosford reg dist
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1871
HO107/
george byham age 40. b. acton,suffolk. occ. agr.lab. head
susan age 50. b. borley,suffolk. wife
sarah mann age 28. b. ditto. . occ. hair weaver. daughter(mar)
charles mann age 11. b. lavenham. grand son
kate mann age 3. b. melford,suffolk. grand daughter
living at;4,church street,lavenham,suffolk
going by the age of george. sarah mann must be the daughter of susan but not the daughter of george
cannot find sarahs husband charles mann on 1871 census