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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Galway => Topic started by: corisande on Monday 27 June 11 07:56 BST (UK)

Title: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: corisande on Monday 27 June 11 07:56 BST (UK): Can anyone help me with what became of this Hotel - McDonnell's in Clifden

It was burnt by the Auxiliaries on 17 March 1921 as reprisal for the death of 2 policemen in an ambush the day before.

John Joe McDonnell, the son of the owners, was shot by the Auxiliaries (either "taken outside and shot" or "shot running away" depending on who is telling the story)

I suspect it has been rebuilt and is now operating under a different name
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: Pastmagic on Monday 27 June 11 10:06 BST (UK): Will have a look later, in the mean time, this is what happened next:

Dáil Éireann - Volume 8 - 15 July, 1924
WRITTEN QUESTIONS. - CLIFDEN COMPENSATION CLAIMS.
[1257] TOMAS O CONAILL asked the Minister for Finance whether compensation has yet been paid to Mr. Alex. McDonnell, of Clifden, Co. Galway, on account of his premises, “McDonnell's Hotel,” which were burned down by British Forces on March 17th, 1921, as well as for furniture and personal effects destroyed on the same occasion; further, whether he will say if any decision has been taken in the matter of Mr. McDonnell's claim for compensation for the loss of his only son, John Joe McDonnell, who was killed by British Forces during the Anglo-Irish struggle.
The PRESIDENT: The claim of the person named by the Deputy for compensation in respect of damage to property has not yet been the subject of an award by the Compensation (Ireland) Commission. It is understood, however, that the case is at present under consideration by that tribunal.
Mr. McDonnell's application for compensation in respect of the death of his son will be listed for hearing by the Compensation (Personal Injuries) Committee during the course of their next sittings at Galway.
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: corisande on Monday 27 June 11 10:14 BST (UK): PM

Like most events at that time it is much more complicated than that

Link to page on John Joe McDonnell (http://www.cairogang.com/police-killed/clifden-mar-17/clifden.html)

I was trying to find out a bit more about the McDonnells hotel, but feel free to broaden the discussion to the events over those two days.

And I could not find the end of the story
Mr. McDonnell's application for compensation in respect of the death of his son will be listed for hearing by the Compensation (Personal Injuries) Committee during the course of their next sittings at Galway.
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: Pastmagic on Monday 27 June 11 22:59 BST (UK): I have just emailed a cousin in Clifden - an architect interested in the buildings there to see what he can come up with. I have spent a day in the national Archive following paperwork re various people in my family in that period, and the gaps are so frustrating 1919-1924. Ended up having to order vast number of pages to be photocopied, as there was no way of making sense of it in an afternoon. I admire your continued endeavours.

PM
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: corisande on Tuesday 28 June 11 06:44 BST (UK): Thanks for that PM

I tried Google street photos, but the "little man" has not been to Clifden yet!

The Nat Arch in London are good in that you allow you to photograph pages at will, so you can make sense of it a a reasonable cost.

The detail with the sort of things that I research is important, as the accounts exist, but are written with bias by one side or the other. The detail helps make sense of whether what anyone says is true, partly true or false>
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: corisande on Tuesday 28 June 11 20:57 BST (UK): OK I have found McDonnells Hotel now thanks to some very good detective work by someone on the Great War Forum.

Essentially a new owner applied for a spirt licence and the paper reported the chain of owners from McDonnells to his niece a Miss Higgens and thence to a Mrs Bridget O'Connnor

It is now the Central Hotel (or B&B) at Clifden. click this link (http://www.cairogang.com/police-killed/clifden-mar-17/old-new.jpg) shows the grainy contemporary newspaper photo and a modern photo side by side and it is the correct building.

As far as I can see the ambush occurred between Kings and Foyles which are on the corner of Market St and Main St.

Not much seems to be available for the ambush itself, can anyone help. All I have really established is that 4 RIC men were ambushed at about this spot and 2 died
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: Pastmagic on Tuesday 28 June 11 23:57 BST (UK): Clifden Market
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: corisande on Wednesday 29 June 11 08:47 BST (UK): Thanks for the photo, that is Foyles in the centre, the double fronted building. Another photo on this link - click here (http://www.cairogang.com/police-killed/clifden-mar-17/clifden-market.jpg). Again Foyles is in the centre of that photo

These facts of the case appear not to be in dispute. How the buildings came to be burned and how the two casualties has differing tales, but it appears to me that McDonnell was taken outside and shot and that Clancy was put up against a wall and shot. Both by the RIC

a. At 10 p.m. on 16th March a 4 man RIC patrol was ambushed on the corner of Market Square, Clifden

b. 2 policemen died, one immediately, one later in hospital

c. News of the ambush was wirelessed to Galway 50 miles away, the telegraph wires having been cut.

d. A party of Royal Irish Constabulary under three officers was despatched by special train to Clifden

e. This party, which included men who knew the locality well, arrived in Clifden between 3 a.m. and 4 a.m. on the morning of the 17th.

f. By dawn 12 houses had been burned and 4 more damaged

g. John Joe McDonnell son of the owner of McDonnell's hotel had been shot dead

h. Peter Clancy sustained terrible injuries from 3 bullet wounds to the head
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: rathmore on Wednesday 29 June 11 10:44 BST (UK): have you seen this site
http://www.cairogang.com/police-killed/clifden-mar-17/clifden.html
your might have to type this address yourselve.
It has a part copy of 1901 and 1911 showing th McDonnell's when they were born and lots more information they also have a copy of the Graing Newspaper photo of McDonnells Hotel and of Lydons after the burnings.
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: corisande on Wednesday 29 June 11 10:57 BST (UK): Not only have I seen it, I wrote it, and it is on the links I put on this thread :)
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: Pastmagic on Wednesday 29 June 11 11:06 BST (UK): His death was registered.

John Joseph McDonnell
registration district:   Clifden
quarter and year:   Apr - Jun 1921
estimated birth year:   1891
age (at death):   30
volume number:   4
page number:   108
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: Pastmagic on Wednesday 29 June 11 11:45 BST (UK): He was buried in Ardbear Cemetery, as per Freemans Journal 1763-1924
Monday, March 21, 1921
Page: 6. if you PM me an email, I can send you an attachment, which also gives details of Reynold's funeral etc.

PM
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: corisande on Wednesday 29 June 11 14:39 BST (UK): Thanks PM

That newspaper clipping was very useful. It is funny how one little extra bit of information opens a lot of doors

In this case, the newspaper remarked that one of the murdered policemen, Sweeney, had been in Irish Guards. His service record was available, and I found out a lot about him from that on this link (http://www.cairogang.com/police-killed/clifden-mar-17/sweeney/sweeney.html)
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: Pastmagic on Wednesday 29 June 11 14:49 BST (UK): Yes it is often like that. From info I have been given, there was an enquiry. This is a small bit from it. I have to get a date for this snippet.
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: corisande on Thursday 30 June 11 14:11 BST (UK): This is more involved than I first though, because of the various relationships involved. As far as I can see John McDonnell (the ex-CSM shot), Peter Clancy (the ex-RIC man wounded, and staying with his brother Patrick on the night of the shootings) and Bridget and Patrick Clancy who later claimed to have been willed McDonnells money are all cousins.

This chart is substantially correct, but I would need local knowledge to confirm it. But it does fit with newspaper reports and census information.

(http://www.cairogang.com/police-killed/clifden-mar-17/clancy/family-tree.jpg)
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: Pastmagic on Thursday 30 June 11 16:47 BST (UK): Connacht Tribune,
Oct 23, 1920

In the light of what you say, this item may be of interest. P.Clancy's father was William Clancy, I have more on him which I discounted earlier but will now send you.

PM
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: corisande on Thursday 30 June 11 16:58 BST (UK): Is that William Clancy not Peter Clancy's brother, who owned the butcher's shop that was burnt.

I thought that Peter Clancy's father was dead, and I could not find his name.
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: Pastmagic on Thursday 30 June 11 17:15 BST (UK): I will have to ask back on that one, there may be a mistake. Do you have the clip which gives the full list of all compensation paid and all the owners of the houses from Connaught Tribune, March 26 1921? Also the letter from the church published on the 18 March 1921? If not, I will include those.

PM
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: corisande on Thursday 30 June 11 17:45 BST (UK): I would be grateful for those clips

The clip I have for Mar 19 in Connaught Tribune says W A Clancy, butcher Main St was one of the properties burned.

And Freeman's Journal report of 19 Mar where they interview Peter Clancy, says "the shop owned by another brother [of Peter Clancy] Wm A Clancy was burned"
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: Pastmagic on Friday 01 July 11 00:19 BST (UK): Have sent you the various press cuttings. Here is an extract from another I have just got, which gives a sightly different slant on timing of events that night. William was the brother, as you say.
I suppose there is no family connection between John Joseph McDonald and Peter Joe McDonald who is the then Comdt of the Sinn Fein, and supposed instigator of the attack.
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: corisande on Friday 01 July 11 06:33 BST (UK): I have not been able to find a connection between John Joe McDonnell and Peter Joe McDonnell.

A connection may exist, but if it does it is not a close connection

A more likely scenario would be that John J McDonnell was in fact a member of the local IRA in some way

After a death like his it is always difficult to establish such information. Take the case of Paddy Moran who was hanged for a Bloody Sunday murder that he did not commit - but he did murder two men at another location that night, and it took decades for that to be established. If John Joe had been a member, then it certainly would have been hidden from the news at the time.

I am not saying that John J McDonnell was a member, just saying that it would appear that the police that night appear to believe that he was. I tend to believe that his father's account is the most accurate, and if that is so, then the police specifically asked for John Joe.

The other "gray" area is how many Auxiliaries were present that night. The only reference I have seen is in the inquiry where it would appear from the evidence given that the man in command was an Auxiliary officer.
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: Pastmagic on Friday 01 July 11 07:57 BST (UK): That does seem likely. For what its worth the New York Tribune took a view that it was a reprisal, as part of a larger pattern following the execution of Whelan. As you say, research of this kind can take years!

March 24, 1921
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: corisande on Friday 01 July 11 08:37 BST (UK): That is a good article, and shows well how the cycle of violence gets ratcheted up and continued with each incident.

I have started to put on the links to Whelan. Would you think this is fair

The ambush appears to have been part of a cycle of violence, common to many such incidents in Ireland at that time. Thomas Whelan from Clifden had been executed on 14 Mar 1921 for the murder of Captain G. T. Baggally on Bloody Sunday (and Baggally was shot because...). The ambush of the RIC patrol and the death of the 2 RIC men appears to have been reprisal for Whelan's death. The death of the 2 constables in Clifden on 16th March then led to Crown Forces reprisals and the death of 2 more men, and the burning of 16 houses in Clifden (and no doubt these events led to further retaliation against the Crown Forces)

I have not found though, a contemporary account of the ambush being a reprisal for Whelan's death - though it has to be more than a co-incidence!
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: Pastmagic on Friday 01 July 11 08:46 BST (UK): Fair enough!
PM

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn88078751/1921-03-15/ed-1/seq-1/

For a long account of the execution of Whelan.
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: Pastmagic on Friday 01 July 11 09:10 BST (UK): Whelan's mother outside Mounjoy with Maud Gonne McBride.
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045211/1921-03-29/ed-1/seq-26/

This one is positively gross:
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85042345/1921-03-14/ed-1/seq-1/

Know this is rambling a bit from the Hotel, but maybe it is valid background, for anyone who might come across this thread.
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: corisande on Friday 01 July 11 09:22 BST (UK): I would agree with you that it is important to establish the events surrounding these incidents, as they do tend to be inter-related

That Lib of Congress site is very good- I had not come across it before
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: Pastmagic on Friday 01 July 11 09:26 BST (UK): I have been using it a while - it is the best organised of the free ones, I think. It does have a few peculiar spellings, like "Mount Joy" for Mounjoy which means searching can be an experement! And some papers cary more Irish content than others.
PM
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: corisande on Wednesday 31 August 11 07:57 BST (UK): I have been transcribing material I got in British Nat Archives recently, and followers of this thread may like an update.

There were in fact at least 2 military inquiries into McDonnells death and Dublin was not happy with either. The first inquiry found

(http://www.cairogang.com/police-killed/clifden-mar-17/mcdonnell/doubts-snippet.jpg)

1st Inquiry produced this result that J J McDonnell died "of a gunshot wound fired by a person unknown and that the shot was fired with murderous intent"

Dublin told them to do another inquiry as they had not considered all the evidence

2nd Inquiry was not a lot fuller but produced a very diferent conclusion and ended with "in the absence of corroboration of the evidence of Alexander McDonnell (his father ) died of.....gunshot rounds fired by the police in the execution of their duty"

Dublin is still not happy, they want the "rough man" (who was among the police party which raided his house) identified by McDonnell's father to be found.

(http://www.cairogang.com/police-killed/clifden-mar-17/mcdonnell/doubts-snippet2.jpg)

There is nothing else in the file in Kew. Either nothing else happened, or it has been pulled from the files and is still secret, or it is filed somewhere else in Kew

My full write up on McDonnell is on this link (http://www.cairogang.com/police-killed/clifden-mar-17/mcdonnell/mcdonnell.html)
Title: Re: Mc'Donnell's Hotel, Clifden, Galway - burnt 1921
Post by: duffyfarrell on Friday 22 January 16 21:37 GMT (UK): Just wondering if there is any link between these McDonnell and the McDonnell's of Moore Hall because of family name Alexander and John Joe?

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