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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: Sal86 on Thursday 25 August 11 20:51 BST (UK)
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Hi I am looking for a genealogist to hire at a reasonable price. My family are mainly from Derbyshire. I have completed vast amounts of research myself already. In fact over 400 entries on my tree. I have some stones unturned and some mysteries too. I would also like to find the missing gaps that I never knew existed with my limited knowledge and resources of genealogy. I want to find scandal! Stories of my family are more what I am interested in. Can you help at a reasonable price? I am on a budget! I have a PDF of entries to assist. Sally.
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Sally, there are more experts on here than you will find in Yellow Pages, all for free, why not post a query or two and see what they find, if it is too personal use the PM to exchange info privately
bodger
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I quite agree Bodger, so ask away with your brick walls & other obstacles Sally. You have nothing to lose, including your your money. ;D Skewy
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Thanks folks! My big brick wall is Maud archer b.1885 Derbyshire. I cannot find her parents-looking at census it states at age of 6 she lives with uncle and aunt barker-which prompts more questions-was her mother unmarried and Maud took the name archer from the father?... Very interesting! Can anybody help? Sally
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Hi
There is no birth of a Maud Archer in Derbyshire on Freebmd http://www.freebmd.org.uk between 1884 and 1887.
There is this marriage which could be Maud's aunt and uncle.
Marriages Sep 1888
ARCHER Mary Burton 6b 495
BARKER John Burton 6b 495
If so, it looks as if Maud was illegitimate as she has the surname Archer.
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Thanks! I believe Maud was Alice Maud archer but known as Maud. So another question arises-if she was illegitimate, why live with her aunt uncle? Where was her mother? Sal
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There is a public tree on Ancestry that has Alice Maud Archer born 1885 Moor Lane Farm Osmaston Derbyshire with parents Daniel Archer 1850 and Annie Tomlinson 1853. However, she seems to be with grandparents in 1891.
Remember that the census only shows where a person was on census night, it doesn't necessarily mean that she was living with them, she may just have been visiting for some reason. I found a relative with grandparents and when I found her parents there was a new baby in the family, so obviously she had been sent away while the baby was born.
I've just had a thought, Mary Baker nee Archer may have been Maud's father's sister and in that case she wouldn't have been illegitimate. ;)
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A possible match for Maud:
Alice Maud Archer Birth March Q 1885 Ashborne 7b 683
Cati
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Saw that one Cati, but I wonder if that is the one with parents Daniel and Annie?
There is also this one, slightly earlier
Alice Maud Archer
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1882
Registration district: Basford
Inferred County: Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire
Volume: 7b
Page: 226
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Hello... :)
The marriage for John Barker to Mary Archer that Groom has already mentioned can be found here which took place at Etwell = http://www.rootschat.com/links/0esh/ .... Mary Archer's father was William Archer
It seems that Maud Archer married James Froggatt at St.Alkmund, Derby in 1910 (no other details) they can be found on the 1911 census and she gives place of birth as Burnaston, Derbyshire as she does on the 1901 which is close to Etwell.... the marriage certificate might give some more clues to her father's name.... could it be Mary Barker nee' Archer's brother?
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I think this birth is likely to be Maud... as Burton covers Etwell and Burnaston, Derbyshire
Births JunQ 1883
ARCHER Maud - Burton On Trent - 6b 387
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Could this be Mary's family in 1881?
RG11; Piece: 2755; Folio: 7; Page: 7;
Willington Turn Spreadeagle Inn Burnaston, Derbyshire
William Archer 51 Farmer & Publican 294 Acres Employ 4 Lab & 3 Boys
Isabella Archer 23
John Archer 21
Agnes M Archer 18
Ann Archer 16
Mary E Archer 14
Fanny M Archer 12
Phillis Archer 11
Thomas J Archer 7
Herbert Roberts 15
Samuel Harper 63
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Oooo.. if that is the correct family... then there is a Will for William
National Probate Calendar - 19th January 1887
The Will of William Archer late of "Spread Eagle" Inn in the Township of Burnaston in the County of Derby, Farmer and Licensed Victualler who died 28th November 1886 at Burnaston was proved at derby by Mary Archer of the "Spread Eagle" Widow the relict and Thomas Archer of Wild Park Mercaston in the said County, Farmer the Nephew, two of the Executors.
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I wonder if he married between 1881 and 1886 as he is given as widower on the 1881?
There are two possibles both in Belper, one in Dec 1881 and one in Dec 1882.
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Oooh so the Alice Maud archer isn't the correct girl? (I know for a fact she married froggatt) is this Maud the same? Or have I got my wires crossed somewhere?
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This is where it gets more complicated.... as it looks like William Archer married Ann Archer....
The family are at the "Spread Eagle" Burnaston on the 1851 = RG9/ Piece1960/ Folio 6/ Page 5
Marriage details here = http://www.rootschat.com/links/0esi/
William's father is a William and Ann's father is Daniel
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Hi Sally,
Hope we aren't confusing you,it isn't Alice Maud..... see reply 10 - I think it is that Alice who is the one you are after and she then went on to marry James Froggatt at St.Alkmund, Derby in 1910, the marriage certificate would help give more information.
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If you know for certain that your Maud married James Froggatt then you need to get their marriage certificate. This will give you her father's name and occupation and you may be able to connect it to the family I gave you.
Marriages Mar 1910
ARCHER Maud Derby 7b 908
FROGGATT James Derby 7b 908
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Re Groom's observation and a second marriage for William Archer....
Marriage at Ripley - by License - 8th Nov 1881
WILLIAM ARCHER, full age, Widower, Farmer & Publican, abode Etwall - father William Archer, Farmer
& MARY CLARKE, full age, Widow, abode Pease Hill - father William Phillips, Farmer
Witnesses = William Cutts & Sarah Cutts X
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Good find, Dizziefish.
So all Sally needs to do is connect Maud up with this family and it's sorted.
We'll send our fees later, Sally. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Jan
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;D ;D ;D .... very good Jan 8)
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If you know for certain that your Maud married James Froggatt then you need to get their marriage certificate. This will give you her father's name and occupation and you may be able to connect it to the family I gave you.
Marriages Mar 1910
ARCHER Maud Derby 7b 908
FROGGATT James Derby 7b 908
Hiya, I am ordering the marriage certificate for Maud and James Froggatt - however I need the Quarter they married in 1910 if anyone can help?x
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If you know for certain that your Maud married James Froggatt then you need to get their marriage certificate. This will give you her father's name and occupation and you may be able to connect it to the family I gave you.
Marriages Mar 1910
ARCHER Maud Derby 7b 908
FROGGATT James Derby 7b 908
Hiya, I am ordering the marriage certificate for Maud and James Froggatt - however I need the Quarter they married in 1910 if anyone can help?x
SORRY! MY MISTAKE I SHOUDL RE-READ THESE PROPERLY! MARCH QUARTER.. DOH!
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Please let us know when you get the certificate so that we know if we were on the right track.
Good luck
Jan
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Thank you for your help and of course I shall keep you posted!x
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Hi guys, I need some serious help here!
I have some difficuluty finding out the father and mother of Henry 'Naylor' Duckworth - or whether Henry Naylro Duckworth is the father of James Duckworth b1868 Lenton Notts.
I know that James Duckworth is definately in my family tree - but anywhere further back from this is difficult to say whether they are in my tree or not.
I think that Henry Naylor Duckworth b1824 Leeds is the father of James. But cannot understand why he is called 'Naylor'.
Can somebody help me?
[/quote
Hi guys this is an old post of mine, still unsure of this character, have made some discoveries but as I am a duckworth myself-this one is a biggy for me!-and is another brick wall-as us duckworths have been around Derbyshire and notts for sometime, Henry seems to throw a spanner in the works as he seems to come from Leeds? Making me unsure of our roots. Please help! Sal x
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According to Family Search
Henry Naylor Duckworth was christened : NOV 1823 Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire, England
Parents John Duckworth and Hannah
This is an extracted record, so likely to be correct.
I see you already have that information from the previous thread. I'll put the link here so that we don't repeat what has already been found.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,504038.0.html
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John Duckworth married Hannah Naylor
06 NOV 1821 Of, Leeds, Yorkshire, England
So it was a family name.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0bq/
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The marriage that Jan has mentioned has the actual register page which can be viewed and downloaded from Ancestry - West Yorkshire, England, Marriages and Banns, 1813-1921
Leeds, St Peter (Leeds Parish Church) page 220 of 266 - 6th Nov 1821
JOHN DUCKWORTH of this parish, Skinner and HANNAH NAYLOR of this parish, spinster.
were married in this Church by Banns, published Oct 7th,14th and 21st 1821 - this sixth day in the year 1821 by me Robert Humphreys, Clerk.
John Duckworth his mark X
Hannah Naylor
In the presence of; Robt Hargrave & Joseph Wadsworth
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
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You can also view or download the images for the baptisms......
Leeds, St Peter (Leeds Parish Church)
Henry Naylor son of John & Hannah Duckworth - born 8th July 1823 - baptised 30th Nov 1823, abode Bank, occupation Skinner
Also.... same parents
Mary Duckworth born 20th Feb, baptised 12th Nov 1826 - father's Occupation = Leather Dresser - abode Stock's Fold.
Eliza Duckworth born 20th June, baptised 9th Nov 1828 - father's occupation = Skinner - abode Bank
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Hi Sally...
Just been looking to fill in some of your gaps.... and looking at your post on the Notts board = http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,503390.0.html
It does look like you have the correct family but I was wondering if you have the marriage cert for John Duckworth and May Wheatley? does it give her father's name to help find her? are you sure she took her stepfathers name or could it just have been a different name variation?
Burial at Lenton - 21st Aug 1897
HENRY DUCKWORTH, aged 76 yrs - abode 4, Tanners Yard, Lenton
It looks like Elizabeth Duckworth didn't die until 1911 =
Deaths Sep 1911 - Elizabeth Duckworth aged 78 - Nottingham 7b 354
She is on the 1911 census at a different address than 1901 but still with her daughter and son in law William & Eliza Eaton and one of their sons is called William Naylor Eaton
1901 = RG13/Piece 3164/Folio 53/Page 4 - 4, Tanners Yard, Lenton, Nottingham.
1881 = RG11/Piece 3340 /Folio 30/Page 2 - 4, Tanners Yard, Lenton, Nottingham.
1871 = RG10/Piece 3499/ Folio 24/Page 1 - Leen Gate, Old Lenton, Bayley's Buildings,Nottinghamshire.
Elizabeth is here in 1861 - RG09/244/19/31 - Priory Street, Lenton, Nottinghamshire
I can't see Henry senior in 1861 or his son Henry who was born in Ireland.
1851 - HO107/2129/8/page 8 - Abbey Street, Lenton - -- with in laws William & Mary Simpson
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Marriage - Radford St Peter - 26th Dec 1850
William Naylor Duckworth & Elizabeth Simpson
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The only two baptisms I found with parents Henry & Elizabeth Duckworth
Baptims at Lenton
ELIZABETH - born 14th Feb 1858 - baptised 15th Sept 1865 - fathers occupation Leather Dresser - abode LONDON
JAMES - born 15th July 1867 - baptised 1st Aug 1867 - fathers occupation Skinner - abode Old Lenton
~ ~ ~
Marriage at Radford St Peter - 25th Dec 1890
JAMES DUCKWORTH & SARAH ANN WALTERS
~ ~ ~
Baptisms for James & Sarah Ann Duckworth's children
Baptism at Lenton
JOHN - 15th April 1891 - fathers occupation = Purer in skin yard.
Baptisms at Radford All Souls
AMOS - 4th Dec 1895 - abode 13, Treswell Place - fathers occupation = Leather Dresser
JAMES - 4th Dec 1895 - abode 13, Treswell Place - fathers occupation = Leather Dresser
~ ~ ~ ~
Sarah Ann Duckworth died in 1905
Deaths SeptQ 1905 - Duckworth Sarah Ann - aged 38 - Nottingham 7b 137
As James has a new wife by 1911 called Eliza Ann this is their likely marriage =
Marriages DecQ 1907
DUCKWORTH James - Nottingham 7b 715
KERREY Eliza Ann - Nottingham 7b 715
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As I am looking at this on my phone, I cannot read through my tree which is on my pc. However, may and John were my great grandparents-paternal. I do know from my great aunt that may was illigitamate. Her maiden name was whiting (from her step father) but her mothers maiden name was Wheatley. Quite confusing! I shall check up on the info you have given me when I returnto my pc thank you again!x p.s it would be great to discover her real father! Any ideas how to do this?
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Hi
If she was illegitimate I'm afraid that there isn't much chance of finding her real father as his name will not be on the birth certificate. or on the marriage certificate. I presume that she married under the name of Wheatley even though she may have used the name Whiting? If so this is another pointer to the fact she was illegitimate.
Jan
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Remember that the census only shows where a person was on census night, it doesn't necessarily mean that she was living with them, she may just have been visiting for some reason. I found a relative with grandparents and when I found her parents there was a new baby in the family, so obviously she had been sent away while the baby was born.
Thanks for that thought! I have often wondered why my grandmother was with her grandparents in 1891, age 3, and 1901, age 13. She was the eldest of 13 children born between 1887 and 1910, so that could be the answer. Does anyone know the actual date of the census in 1891 and 1901 please?
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1891 Census Sunday 5th April 1891
1901 Census Sunday 31st March 1901
Here are the dates of all the censuses
http://www.1911census.org.uk/censusdates.htm
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There usually isn't much chance in finding the birth father if they were illegitimate..... :'(
But I am puzzled - John Duckworth married May in 1915 and she married in the name of Wheatley and it seems to me that some children when they were registered had the mother's maiden name as Wheatley and some as Whiting.
You would think if May was illegitimate and her mother was a Whiting we could find a marriage for a Mr Wheatley to a Miss Whiting?...... or am I missing something?
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Is she the child of Luke and Mary - born Whittington Derbyshire 1895? If so she is not the eldest child.
This seems to have been their marriage
Marriages Dec 1889
WHEATLEY Luke Chesterfield 7b 1289
Rodgers Mary Sophia Chesterfield 7b 1289
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As we can't post details of the 1911 it is a bit difficult to explain but I think maybe Sally might have the Wheatley/Whiting reversed? On the 1911 is a May Whiting born 1893 in Ashover.
Taking the info from 1911 I have found this marriage = https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.2/9QT1-NLS/p1
where you will see they didn't marry until 1897......
I have to leave this for tonight but if you want to have a go to see if you can find Catherine with May on the 1901... I have looked but haven't managed to find them... Catherine say's she was born Ockbrook, Derbyshire.
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She was the child of Catherine Emma Mary Wheatley. Again until I get on my pc I cannot give as much detail as I've recorded. If I remember rightly Catherine was also illegitstmate? Sally
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Back on the pc!
Catherine was not illegitamate as far as I can see.
Yes, I got the Whiting and Wheatley mixed up. May used Wheatley as her maiden name until her mother married Whiting, which she then adopted that surname until she married John Duckworth.
Wheatley was her mother's maiden name, hence May being illegitamate.
My great-aunt has always wondered about her mother (May)'s father, and she says that she does not know who he is. I do believe she has the birth and marriage certs for her parents John and May, therefore, I believe that it is not stated on them.
Going to reel through the past messages and tie up a few ends in relation to some Qs that have been asked. I shall re-post! :-) Again, thank you for all your help, I really appreciate it!
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You can also view or download the images for the baptisms......
Leeds, St Peter (Leeds Parish Church)
Henry Naylor son of John & Hannah Duckworth - born 8th July 1823 - baptised 30th Nov 1823, abode Bank, occupation Skinner
Also.... same parents
Mary Duckworth born 20th Feb, baptised 12th Nov 1826 - father's Occupation = Leather Dresser - abode Stock's Fold.
Eliza Duckworth born 20th June, baptised 9th Nov 1828 - father's occupation = Skinner - abode Bank
Do we know when John and Hannah were both born?
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\Ooooh now this is interesting,
I am revisiting some research.
Catherine Emma Mary Wheatley's mother was Eliza Wheatley (married name)
She married William Wheatley.
I have her maiden name as Spencer-Newbold for some reason - I cannot remember - (I would have got this info from Findmy past)
Now looking on family search I see William Wheatley married Eliza Garner? in the same year in the same town.
Hmmmm my cogs are turning, and cannot tie the ends.
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Hi Sally
Can you give us the dates and places as that makes it easier checking census details. Was the information from Family Search an extracted record (more likely to be true) or submitted (needs careful checking)?
Jan
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I am unsure to be honest.
Catherine Emma Mary Wheatley b.1871 d1953 mJohn Wheatley in 1897
Her mother was Eliza (Spencer Newbold?? [Findmypast]) b1836 Shardlow d? m1871 Derby William Wheatley b? d?
I believe Eliza was widowed as she remarried to Thomas Booth in 1883 Belper?
All of this info is from Findmy past
Although on Familysearch it states William Wheatley married Eliz Garner 1887 Derby which has now confused me.
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Is this them in 1881?
RG11; Piece: 3411; Folio: 20; Page: 14
Elizth. Wheatley 43 widow grocer Ockbrook, Derbyshire
Catherine Wheatley 8 Ockbrook, Derbyshire
If so are you sure you have the right marriage as it looks as if she was Elizabeth, not Eliza
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There is this marriage
Marriages Sep 1871
Garner Eliza Derby 7b 615
Wheatley William Derby 7b 615
From Freebmd and FindMyPast.
In the 1871 census there is this:
RG10; Piece: 3558; Folio: 12; Page: 17
Elizabeth Garner 34 head dressmaker Ockbrook
I think it says she is a widow
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Is this them in 1881?
RG11; Piece: 3411; Folio: 20; Page: 14
Elizth. Wheatley 43 widow grocer Ockbrook, Derbyshire
Catherine Wheatley 8 Ockbrook, Derbyshire
If so are you sure you have the right marriage as it looks as if she was Elizabeth, not Eliza
Yes this is them!
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I cant see the Spencer-Newbold marriage?
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Think it's the same person. I believe Eliza Garner was a widow when she married William Wheatley in 1871. Her maiden name was Spencer and her father was Thomas Spencer.
From Family Search
groom's name: William Wheatley
groom's birth date: 1846
groom's birthplace:
groom's age: 25
bride's name: Eliza Garner
bride's birth date: 1841
bride's birthplace:
bride's age: 30
marriage date: 16 Jul 1871
marriage place: Saint Werburgh,Derby,Derby,England
groom's father's name: Joseph Wheatley
groom's mother's name:
bride's father's name: Thomas Spencer
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Then there is this:
ELIZA SPENCER to JOHN GARNER
Marriage:
22 DEC 1859 Ockbrook, Derby, England
(That's my birthday, obviously not 1859 though ;D ;D ;D)
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This looks like John Garner's death
Deaths Jun 1868
GARNER John 33 Shardlow 7b 238
Ockbrook came under Shardlow registration district. Eliza wasn't very lucky with her husbands was she?
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Was her parents Spencer and newbold? Or did she marry a newbold making it Spencer newbold? How interesting!
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This looks like John Garner's death
Deaths Jun 1868
GARNER John 33 Shardlow 7b 238
Ockbrook came under Shardlow registration district. Eliza wasn't very lucky with her husbands was she?
Haha she sounds a bit suspicious if you ask me! haha
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Groom's Name: Thomas Spencer
Bride's Name: Catherine Edwards
Marriage Date: 23 Dec 1824
Marriage Place: Saint Peter,Derby,Derby,England
A likely marriage of Eliza's parents?
However the 1841 census states Eliza's sister Hannah to be born pre 1824 (1821)
Could she be born out of wed-lock, or are the dates unreliable at this point in time on the 1841 census?
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That looks like the marriage. Ages were rounded in the 1841 census and are not very reliable.
Where did you get the Newbold bit from, can you post the link?
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I cannot remember it was so long ago since I did the research. However, I have a feeling that my G-Aunt showed me a book that belonged to Eliza (which had her name written inside Newbold? or Spencer Newbold?)
Could this be William Wheatley's family in the 1851 census?:
WHEATLEY, Joseph Head Married M 34 1817 Iron Labourer
Dale Abbey
Derbyshire VIEW
WHEATLEY, Emma Wife Married F 30 1821
Stanton
Derbyshire VIEW
WHEATLEY, Harriet Daughter F 9 1842
Dale Abbey
Derbyshire VIEW
WHEATLEY, Henry Son M 8 1843 Scholar
Dale Abbey
Derbyshire VIEW
WHEATLEY, Miriam Daughter F 5 1846 Scholar
Dale Abbey
Derbyshire VIEW
WHEATLEY, Mark Son M 3 1848
Dale Abbey
Derbyshire VIEW
WHEATLEY, William Son M 0 (9 MOS) 1851
Dale Abbey
Derbyshire VIEW
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Could be, but the date of birth on William's marriage gives him as being born in 1846. Unfortunately he died before the 1881 census so we cant use that to check his age.
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Hello.... :)
I think the Newbold name is from Eliza's sister Mary who married George Newbold at Ockbrook in 1844
See here = https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.2/9Q21-VVF/p4 - site is a bit slow loading :-\
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Here's something to get your teeth into!
James Cooper b1890- Married - May Latham b1891 m1919 in Kirk Hallam
They had one son I am aware of - Charles R T Cooper b1926 - did they have any other children?
(I think there may have been some misprinting or reading of the maiden name Latham at some point - Tatham may appear?!)
But what I really want to know is who James married before May Latham (it says hes a widow on the marriage info to May)
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Hello.... :)
I think the Newbold name is from Eliza's sister Mary who married George Newbold at Ockbrook in 1844
See here = https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.2/9Q21-VVF/p4 - site is a bit slow loading :-\
ooooh thank you! that is great info that has solved a few brain cells that I've been scratching!
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The only other one coming up is a son born June quarter 1925, still with mother's maiden name of Tatham rather than Latham. I wont post details as he could still be alive, but you can find him using http://www.freebmd.org.uk
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Crumbs.... you are losing me here.... another family!
Will post this with who we were looking up.... :-\
As Catherine Spencer gives her place as Dale Abbey this extracted marriage is likely to be theirs and fits with daughter Hannah born abt 1821....
Batch number M020731 - Dale Abbey
THOMAS SPENCER & CATHERINE PURDY - 19 APR 1819 Dale Abbey, Derbyshire.
Burial Ockbrook - a few other Spencer's showing but year coverage a bit sparse - http://www.rootschat.com/links/0etn/
Catherine Spencer - 12 Oct 1873
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Maud Archer 10.04.1883 Born at the Spread Eagle Burnaston.
Mother Isabella Archer (barmaid)
Father - blank
She was illigitamate???
It pays to get the birth cert ordered - how interesting this is!
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Okay - so that links with the 1881 cenus I gave you earlier. In 1891, Maud is with her aunt Mary who is Isabella's sister. Correct place of birth as well. Shame you will probably never find her father.
RG11; Piece: 2755; Folio: 7; Page: 7;
Willington Turn Spreadeagle Inn Burnaston, Derbyshire
William Archer 51 Farmer & Publican 294 Acres Employ 4 Lab & 3 Boys
Isabella Archer 23
John Archer 21
Agnes M Archer 18
Ann Archer 16
Mary E Archer 14
Fanny M Archer 12
Phillis Archer 11
Thomas J Archer 7
Herbert Roberts 15
Samuel Harper 63
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Here's the family in 1861
RG9; Piece: 1960; Folio: 6; Page: 5;
Burnaston, Derbyshire
William Archer 31 Licenced victualler and farmer of 55 acres Hollington, Derbyshire
Ann Archer 26 Mercaston, Derbyshire
William Archer 5 Burnaston
Isabella Archer 3 Burnaston
John Archer 1 Burnaston
Samuel Harpar 42 servant Burnaston
Frances Smith 14 servant Willington, Derbyshire
Jan
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Now this is interesting. Although mauds birth certificate states no father at all, her marriage certificate states her father to be William archer a publican...confused!!!!
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It looks as if she has given her grandfather's name and occupation on her marriage certificate in order to look respectable. This was very common. Sometimes a name was even just made up and added.
Jan