RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Roxburghshire => Topic started by: diddymiller on Friday 16 September 11 14:00 BST (UK)
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Hi, I have just managed after years (through buying the wrong marriage cert!) to trace my James Hogg born scotland 1802 to:
James Hogg b. 27/3/1801 Kelso s/o John Hogg & janet Williamson
he married Ann Groves and lived /had children in Newcastle upon Tyne.
however i can't find his father Johns birth. he married Janet 20/6/1785 kelso.
both James & his brother Adam were nurserymen so maybe john was too.
the family did seem to move to berwick as Adam gives his pob in census as Belsay,Northumberland / Kelso but found him Berwick (8/12/1803)
can anyone help find Johns birth /death etc. i have family forward - any other siblings for John/Adam?
Diddy
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btw - I know there are some possibles on SP but how do i know which one?
Diddy
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Hi Diddy
Have you come across this possible other brother for James and Adam:
ROB. HOGG b. 15 June 1815 and chr. 19 July 1815 at Castle Garth Presbyterian-Nc, Newcastle Upon Tyne, Northumberland, England
Parents: JN. HOGG and JANET WILLIAMSON
Monica :)
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brilliant thanks - no - just started to look at N,bld too as have many other rellies there!! thought there must be others.
Diddy
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This info here http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/m/o/r/Neil-Morton/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0249.html refers to the parish entry for Robert's birth or christening and shows father John as a gardener, as you thought he may be.
Monica
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ta - all helps!
Diddy
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Diddy,
I know very little about my ancestor Thomas Hogg, born around 1827 near or in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, a cotton buyer who came to Mobile, Alabama, USA and married a woman of Scottish heritage. Small clues from family letters have led me to thinking James Hogg and Ann Groves are possibly Thomas' parents. One letter says that Thomas' father and uncle both died in about March of 1862. I don't know the first names of either. Another clue is that Thomas and his wife named their oldest daughter "Annie," a name not seen in his wife's family. One other clue is that a "Maria Hogg" possibly came to the United States and might be named Maria Groves Hogg. My research through the UK censuses have led me to you and your post. I wonder if you can tell me when your James Hogg died. Any information you can give me would be much appreciated!
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Hi JPatton,
I had a search on LDS, cannot see a Maria Groves Hogg there. Also not on ScotlandPeoples website either.
Do you have Thomas Hogg's marriage certificate, did it give parent's names on that?
Tom
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Hi, Tidy!
No, we have no marriage certificate on Thomas Hogg. Thanks for looking up the names. I DO appreciate it! The folks seem so friendly! --JP
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The folks in the chatroom, I mean. Everyone wanted to help out. ---JP,
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Hi, I have found further info since last posting. interesting articles on the British newspapers online site - adverts for Hoggs Nursery in Newcastle!
children I have from James & Ann Groves:
Jane 15/11/1825 Gateshead
Thomas 2/8/1827 Gateshead
Elizabeth 12/7/1829 gateshead my line
Mary Ann 1834 newcastle
Maria Groves Dec 1838 newcastle
James 1840 newcastle died 1841
James 27/3/1801 kelso married Ann Groves 6/2/1825 newcastle. he died between 1861 -1871
Thomas Hogg 1827 I have on the 1851 with his father, widower & mary & Maria at 6 Mansfield St, Westgate, newcastle as a grocer aged 22. nothing on maria after 1851. Mary still with father 1861.
Diddy
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have James (1801) as a judge at flower shows in N/C area until 1867 - Mr James Hogg, seedsman - doesn't tie in with freebmd deaths.
have seen the 1870 death cert - not him
Diddy
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Thanks for all the information, Diddy. I researched some of the many Thomas Hoggs in the 1841, 1851 and 1861 censuses to see if I could find something familiar. I knew from seeing his name and age (28) on a Liverpool to Mobile, Alabama, USA passenger list in 1855 that my Thomas Hogg was born in about 1827. (His obituary, which I found in a family scrapbook, was undated, but it said he was 46 when he died in Mobile, Alabama (that makes his death year 1873) and it said he was from Newcastle Upon Tyne). I saw the family of James Hogg and Ann Groves and stopped in my tracks because:
1. My Thomas Hogg named his daughter "Annie" and this name is not from his wife's side of the family. James Hogg was married to an "Ann."
2. A letter from Thomas's mother-in-law to his sister-in-law asked "How is Maria Hogg?" I thought she had to be a relative and the censuses of 1841 and 1851 showed that James and Ann Hogg had a daughter named Maria.
It would have been wonderful to have James' death date because then I'd know for sure if I was exploring the right family. A letter dated Sept 1863 between two sisters-in-law of my Thomas Hogg has this line: "We received letters yesterday from England announcing the death of Mr. Hogg's Father and Uncle, he seemed to feel it very much indeed because his Father had been dead eighteen months and this was the first intelligence he had had of it." So this told me Thomas's father had died around March of 1862. And his uncle had died maybe around the same general time.
Okay, with that exploration at an impasse for the time being, I decided to find out what happened to Maria Groves Hogg after 1851. I guessed that she too came to Mobile and there IS a Maria Hogg, 21, a seamstress born in England, on the 1860 census for Mobile, living next door to James Groves, 43, clerk; his wife Annie, 33, and children Thomas, Emma, James, Annie, Robert and Marie. James was born in England. Annie, James' wife, was born in Scotland. Further research told me James came to the US in 1854. Do you know the siblings of Ann Groves? I guess that's next on my research list. What do you know of about your ancestor Elizabeth, if I may ask? --many thanks, JP
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Maria Groves Hogg: No info after 1851
Ann Groves: born about 1806. not in county 1841. died between 1841 -1851 (ie James widower on 1851) no further info .
Elizabeth Hogg: b. 12 /7/1829 Gateshead. my 2xggrandmother. maried John Pye Singleton 8/1/1851 newcastle. had 5 children - know all details. died mar 1866 Newcastle.
James Hogg (1801) there is a death june 1862 BUT there are articles in the Newcastle Journal with a Mr James Hogg, seedsman as judge at flower shows 1862 /1864/1867
There were a few other hogg families around at the time.
Diddy
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Diddy,
I think maybe this is the family I'm looking for if James Hogg's death was June, 1862. That's around the right time. Do you know the source for that date? Is it easy to find old articles in the Newcastle Journal? I know how to do look-ups in ScotlandsPeople, but besides that, I'm not proficient outside of finding things on ancestry.com. I take it the family was in Kelso, Scotland before coming to Newcastle? I guess I will pursue John Hogg and Janet Williamson from there, unless you can direct me in another.
All this news is truly great. I was resigned to never knowing Thomas Hogg's past before coming to the USA, and now, because of you, I can report to my folks that I've probably located his parents, grandparents and siblings. Thank you for being kind enough to respond to me here! You and this forum are just great! --JP
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Diddy,
I just did a search on ancestry.com and found on England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915 a James Hogg in Newcastle-Upon-Tyne who died in April of 1862, so he may be the husband of Ann and father of Thomas. I wish that index gave more information, but I suppose I'm lucky I found anything!--JP
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I also found that Adam Hogg, brother of James Hogg (who married Ann Groves) had a son named James, born between 1829 and 1831 and died in 1870. He was a nurseryman also, married to Elizabeth Ann Maillard. So perhaps he's the fellow in the Newcastle Journal articles. By the way, Adam Hogg in the 1871 census was a "nurseryman, seedsman" with 4 acres at Hoggs Nursery in Elswick, township of Newcastle. (but you probably knew this?)
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Adam was married to Jane & had 7 children:
james 1831 -1870
william 1837
Sarah 1839
Charlotte Ann 1842
Ann 1843
joh 1845
Arthur 1849
i have all census until Adams death jan 1876 Newcastle. I also have his probate record to William & charlotte.
also details of 'Hoggs nursery'.
Diddy
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Diddy, thanks! I just read more of your messages on the forum and see I've repeated a lot of what you already said, so pardon me for saying what you already said. I found some articles on Adam Hogg. I wonder how many gardeners are in this family...and why I have no green thumb.
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and i do.... i was delighted to find the Hoggs were gardeners.
feel free to PM me for more info if needed. however i am working away a lot in May. first lot away thur /fri.
Diddy
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Well, I have big ideas for gardening my small patch of land, but even though I wear gloves and long sleeves, whenever I try to plant someething, I usually end up with a poison ivy-type rash! I probably need a Hazmat suit! Thanks so much for the newest information. It's great you've traced the family back so far. I am not 100% sure this is my Thomas Hogg's family as the age I have for him in the USA is two years off. (birth date about 1827 in USA, about 1829 in England). I can only hope that there is a mistake somewhere. Maybe he is not from James Hogg's family, but it's the closest I can find...
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No he is 1827 in England too:
Baptisms, Gateshead District - Record Number: 714745.0
Location: Gateshead
Church: St. Mary
Denomination: Anglican
9 Sep 1827 Thomas Hogg, of Gateshead, child of James (seedsman) & Ann Hogg
further family info on PM
Diddy