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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: bykerlads on Sunday 18 September 11 19:20 BST (UK)
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This is a "complete shot in the dark", so please excuse my lack of knowledge about travelling folks.
What I'd like to know is if there is any way of knowing if there were travellers/gypsies/fairground people in or near to Holmfirth, West Yorkshire late Summer 1866. Maybe there was a regular fair which passed through the town or an encampment or even a regular hawkers' route. I have no information at all, I'm afraid.
The reason for my enquiry is that I'm trying to shed light on the paternity of a child born in May 1867- no father's name appears on any records but the family were always said to have "gypsy bood" .Sorry if this sounds offensive, it is really not intended to be - we have several illegitimate births in our tree, I'm just following up any clues we have at all.
In fact the child in question, whatever blood-line she carried, proved to be of exceptionally sturdy stock- producing and raising 13 children, one my grandfather, all of whom did very well for themselves. I am told she was a wonderful character.
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Hello
Do you mean 1866 or 1886 ?
There are numerous sites which specialaise in Romany gypsy
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Thanks- have corrected it- meant 1866/7.
Any tips as to which sites might be of help?
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hi, bykerlads. as a romany man, i can say there are lots of travellers/gypsy folk, who would have been in your area, before and after 1867, but without a name, its not possible to give any info, i.e if ten romany familys stopped on a site, and there were twenty men of age to father a child, you would have to trace them all, and then you could not find the father without a name, so you would never get the father. sorry to be so negative, but you will have to get more info. good luck anyway. rob g
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Thanks rob g.
I realise it's a bit of a vain hope but worth a try.
It's the gaps in the family tree that are the most tantalising - you just always want to know more!
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Hi Bykerlads
Local trade directories usually gave details of when fairs took place in specific towns. You could take a look for Holmfirth and surrounding places by using the online collection of directories available at the University of Leicester website. All searches are free:
www.historicaldirectories.org
Once you've got an idea of the dates of the fairs, you could also try local newspapers. Fairs – and the people who attended them – usually got some coverage, particularly if individuals were involved in minor misdemeanours such as allowing their horses to stray or fortune telling. That would give you some surnames to go by.
Romany families and fairground people tended to travel the same routes each year, plotting their course by fairs and markets. So if you find a newspaper mention of a Smith, Boswell or Lee - for example – in a place one year, they're likely to be in the same vicinity in the same month the following year.
Good luck!
Sharon
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Thanks, Sharon- didn't know about the Leicester Uni website- will have a look.
(I was a post-grad student at Leicester in the early 70's- interesting to see how they have developed things there)
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How about a name to research
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elzabels- not sure if names will be of use, as it is the unknown father that I'm looking for but this info may ring a bell:
- child Annie Green Taylor b. 1867 no named father
- her mother was Hannah Taylor unmarried b.1832
- the use of Green in Annie's name came from the maiden name of Hannah's mother who died when Hannah was a small child.
The entire family can be traced back well into the 1700's as living in the Underbank area of Holmfirth, West Yorkshire.
As per my original post, I'm just following up the family/village "talk" that there was romany blood in the family and am assuming it might have come via the unnamed father, though of course it may well not be the case.
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Hello
Have you looked for a baptism record in the Parish Registers ( original source) to see if there are any 'local comments' entered by the minister? Or maybe the Parish Chest to see if support has een claimed?
Annie Green TAYLOR b 22/02/ 1867 bp 29/05/1874 Holmfirth mother's name Hannah TAYLOR
You can either order & review via the familysearch cewntre or maybe a quick e mail to the Local RO presume it maybe this
West Yorkshire Archive Service Bradford,
Bradford Central Library,
Prince's Way, Bradford, BD1 1NN
Telephone (01274) 435099
E-Mail bradford-at - wyjs.org.uk
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hello again, i just had a look at your posts, it may not be of any help. but the name green is a very old gypsy surname? and there are still greens, who live a romany life in yorks areas. it could be just a given name of course, but why dont you give the green name a search, you may have done this, but it may be worth looking again, at other people and their occupations in the family. romany women do/did use the maiden name as the surname, when they wed a gorgio( non gypsy) or add it as a christian name. so the name green in your family may be a link. also lots of stories get a little mixed up, and the romany link may come in somewhere else? also it is a little known fact, that around 70% of british famlies have some romany blood, or connection. anyway good luck. rob g..
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Thanks, rob g - you're right that the romany story might not be too reliable. In fact, at the very least talk of gypsies must have been due to the fact that my father, his father and siblings were all unusually dark in colouring, especially for Yorkshire folk. I had taken a stab at assuming that this might have come through the unknown father of Annie Green Taylor.
Your suggestion about Green being a romany name is very interesting- I hadn't thought of that possibility.
In West Yorks it was very much the custom to give one son the mother's maiden surname as his christian name but I've never come across the use of it with girls- so there may well be something in what you suggest.
Annie g's mother Hannah had a brother called Green Taylor who died in infancy just before his mother (nee Green).
I had wondered how it was that Hannah used the name years later, especially as she was very young when her mother died- there seems to have been more than the usual need to keep the name alive.
I'llhave another look at the Greens- so far I've got back to John Green of Newgate, Holmfirth gtgrandfather of Annie G.
You mentioned romany occupations- what jobs might be relevant?
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hi, bykerlads. there are lots of work that romany folk did, but here are a few, general dealer/ horse. scrap metal/ marine merchants, ironbrokers. fruit and veg, pickers seasonal workers. basket weavers/ tinker, whitesmith, pottery/ eathenware dealers. and hawkers. although other people did this type of work, you tend to find gypsy folk doing this. but they could turn a hand to most things. in the fifties we used to travel in the south of england, and a lot of travelling men cleaned/ polished the cooking pots and pans, at big hotels etc, and made a nice living. hope this gives you something to help in your search. cushty bok. (good luck in romany).. rob .
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Thanks, rob.
As a linguist, I was interested in your romany good wishes, not the least because TV's Del-boy used to used "cushty"!!.
Could I just ask for my own interest:
- is it a complete language used all the time or just partially, mixed in with, say, English?
- what does romany derive from? any other languages?
- is it purely spoken or does a written form exist?
- have any words been adopted into English?
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hi, again. the romany language as been translated by a boswell, many years ago, i know his decendents! and there are many other books/sites on the web. liverpool archives as a good site for photos etc. and as to romany, it is mostly a combination of indian sanskrit, hindu. and eastern languages. the last person i knew could ( rokker) talk deep ( rumnus) romany, was my g. uncle jim wilson now dead over twenty five years. but most travellers still speak bit of romany. it is to big a subject to go into deeply, but yes there are other words that have entered the english language, such as chav? a short version for (chavvi) romany for boy /lad/youngman. also (bari) as in good, there are even words in club/house music. one line contains the word( shushi ) romany for rabbit. and of course cushty, our name for a lord or lady is rai and rawnee, in indian its raj and rawnie? also we say (chorei) steal/ stolen. and in india there are chori markets? we say (parni) for water as do the indians. also there are european words (vass) for hand, and so on as i said it is to big, but have a look on the web there are lots of interesting site if you want to find out more. i myself, never went to school. travelling all the time. so i am self taught in everything, so you will have to forgive any errors in spelling grammer etc, and because romany is mainly a oral thing, spellings differ anyway. a bit like old english writing. i bit of digging, and you may find more yourself about the romany people. by the way, as way of an enigma, romany folki, say (grai) for horse, and the only other language that uses that word is american plains indians, strange? it may help to know that most british romany are of the rom tribe, northen european are sinte, and eastern european gypsy are roma. and there is still a kind of caste system? anyway bye for now. rob
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Thanks, rob g - very interesting about the language.
Am going to have a closer look now at the local records in re the Greens.
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Hello Rob.. My familia are Wilson Cunningham Varey Gray and plenty more.. Nais tu for looking.