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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: els81 on Tuesday 27 September 11 14:44 BST (UK)
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Can anyone help me find Stephen Andrew Palmer and his parents or father, I have been trying to do so for about 3 yrs and have still found nothing!! The only info I have is
Stephen Andrew Palmer born c1868 where abouts unknown
Married Jane Connelly in 1895 (father of Stephen was William Palmer, occupation Traveller)
Stephen put his year of birth as 1875 on marriage cert but on his death cert he was 73 in 1941 so that would make his year of birth 1868.
Can only find Stephen and Jane in 1901 census, I cant even find a birth record for Stephen???
Can anyone help??
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I would be more inclined to trust the 1873 DOB. Birth dates on death certificates are notoriously unreliable.
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Where in the country did they live? What job did he do? Who were the witnesses to their 1895 marriage.
The age on a death cert is given by someone other than the person themselves,as Nick says can notoriously be incorrect ;D Also by the time they've reached old age peopel did then to forget their ages a bit.Not like today where we are always needing to provided our DOB's.
Carol
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Have you seen the baptism for a Stephen Andrew Palmer in 1875 ?
Baptism Date: 26 Sep 1875
Father's Name: William Palmer
Mother's Name: Rose Palmer
Stepney St Dunstan and All Saints, Tower Hamlets
Father's occupation seems to be 'Smith and Farrier' which could be travelling professions.
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Ah I see they married in Whitechapel in June 1/4 of 1894.
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Carol, the marriage was in St Stephens Church Spitalfields (7 April 1894). The residence at the time of marriage was '29 (and a half) Gt Pearl Street'
Witnesses were Timothy Conolly (bride's father) and Elizabeth Conolly.
Stephen's occupation was 'Carman'
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Just out of interest both Stephen and Jane signed their names whilst their witnesses made their mark.
Do you have them in 1911? Does he give a birthplace there?
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Have you seen the baptism for a Stephen Andrew Palmer in 1875 ?
Baptism Date: 26 Sep 1875
Father's Name: William Palmer
Mother's Name: Rose Palmer
Stepney St Dunstan and All Saints, Tower Hamlets
Father's occupation seems to be 'Smith and Farrier' which could be travelling professions.
Do you mean William Stephen Palmer is baptised? I can only see that one. :-\
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He's very elusive isn't he ::)
There are baptisms of various of his children at St Luke's Finsbury.
Jane Palmer bapt 25 Sep 1896
Mary Ann Palmer bapt 29 Oct 1897
Edward James Palmer bapt 5 May 1905
And William Andrew Palmer bapt 28 Sep 1898 at St Mary's Hoxton.
But having no luck with ANY other census.
Carol
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Have you seen the baptism for a Stephen Andrew Palmer in 1875 ?
Baptism Date: 26 Sep 1875
Father's Name: William Palmer
Mother's Name: Rose Palmer
Stepney St Dunstan and All Saints, Tower Hamlets
Father's occupation seems to be 'Smith and Farrier' which could be travelling professions.
Do you mean William Stephen Palmer is baptised? I can only see that one. :-\
Me too Heywood ???
Have you got Xray eyes today Nick ;D
Carol
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Aren't we rude Els,we haven't even Welcomed you to Rootschat yet. ;D
We're so keen to solve your puzzle for you.
Carol
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I dont think Stephen wanted to fill in the census forms for some very strange reason. He did not put a place of birth on the 1901 census or occupation but he has been a carman a coal dealer and a porter as seen on his childrens baptism records. It is just so frustrating. I have come across a Stephen Andrew Plamer b.1875 but he died in 1875.
Request removed.
Please do not ask for look ups from named databases.[/color]
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Have you seen the baptism for a Stephen Andrew Palmer in 1875 ?
Baptism Date: 26 Sep 1875
Father's Name: William Palmer
Mother's Name: Rose Palmer
Stepney St Dunstan and All Saints, Tower Hamlets
Father's occupation seems to be 'Smith and Farrier' which could be travelling professions.
Do you mean William Stephen Palmer is baptised? I can only see that one. :-\
Me too Heywood ???
Have you got Xray eyes today Nick ;D
Carol
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Can't find it now - I may have mucked up on the name ::) That's what happens when you're on 1mg of steroids a day - it messes with your brain (well, that's my excuse anyway :-[ )
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Thank you Carol, I really do hope we do solve this mystery with everyones help. This is the only part of my family tree that I am stuck on.
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Els,
do you have him in 1911?
heywood
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Hi Heywood, No I cant find any of them in 1911
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Glad you're seeing things Nick ....thought it was me(and Heywood) going mad :P
I am presuming they stayed in the UK Els?
He may have been registered just as Stephen without the middle name of course and added that at a later date to look 'posher' ;D
Carol
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Hi Carol, I have looked on the BMD for Stephen Palmer born from 1866 all the way through to 1870 but cant seem to follow them on the census as they always change their yr and place of birth. I have not yet looked for Stephen Palmer born 1871-1876. Yes I do believe they stayed in the uk and lived round the Islington area.
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Els I see the one you mean- Stephen Palmer born Islington D1874 died Islington in M1875.
Hmmmm....
Carol
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He's very elusive isn't he ::)
There are baptisms of various of his children at St Luke's Finsbury.
Jane Palmer bapt 25 Sep 1896
Mary Ann Palmer bapt 29 Oct 1897
Edward James Palmer bapt 5 May 1905
And William Andrew Palmer bapt 28 Sep 1898 at St Mary's Hoxton.
But having no luck with ANY other census.
Carol
Looking at these children and comparing them with 1901
William Palmer 5 yrs baptism says born 1894
Jane Palmer 3 yrs baptism 1896
John Palmer 1 yr
no Mary Ann
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I wonder if the March 1899 death of a 2 year old Mary Ann Palmer in Hackney may be her?
Her baptism gives a DOB of 5th Oct 1897,family living at 5 Beckford Square,dad's a carman.
Carol
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William's DOB given on his 1898 baptism as 25th Nov 1894.
Address 65 Britannia Street, dad a carman.
Carol
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Hi Carol, yes Mary Ann died in 1899 (haven't been able to open my tree on GR) It is now working.
They had a son called John b.1900 but no baptism record for him
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I don't know if this is any help but Jane's father Timothy Connelly in 1881- occupation- bricklayers labourer, lived at 4 hatfield street, st Luke
In 1891- worked as a labourer. lived at 10 beckford square
In 1895 (time of stephen's and Jane's marriage) Timothy was a Jewellers Porter
Timothy died in 1899
Stephen-
1941-living at 14 arundel square islington- occupation was General Porter. Cause of death-cardiac failure and chronic bronchitis, Jane still living in 1941.
c1928 occupation was Porter
1905- lived at 5 Hatfield Street. Occupation Jewellers Porter.
1901- lived at 47-45 Westmoreland Place, shoreditch, WAS A COAL DEALER, CARMAN.
1898- living at 65 Brittania Street. Stephen was a Carman.
1881-1891- can not find him in the census.
1894 -lived at 29 1/2 Gt Pearl Street.
If you look at what Stephen was doing and where he was living after 1895 it seems he became a Jewellers porter and lived where Timothy lived in Hatfield Street. Maybe he took over from Timothy when he died in 1899??
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The info I have also been told regarding the Palmer family is that there were travellers (not sure what kind?) in the family and there is a photo of a family outside of a horse drawn caravan but no one knows who it is?? Also there is a mention of the Palmer's living on a boat but I don't know how to find out any info on people living on boats in the 1800's. Boxing is also mentioned. It has been said that my Palmer family are relations of the famous boxer "Pedlar Palmer" but I have yet to see/find any connection.
My search continues
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Hello,
I noticed whilst searching that this has been searched elsewhere with presumably no results. :(
Have you tried an address search for 1911 census for Hatfield Street - last known address in 1905?
heywood
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Hi Heywood, no I haven't looked up the address. I will have a look now to see what turns up
Thank you
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Foumd it 5 Hatfield Street St Luke. but there are 5 listed??
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Mmm - I see what you mean.
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There are5 lots of 5 Hatfield Street's listed on the 1911 census??
Dont know if they are all the same??
5 HATFIELD ST
St Luke
Holborn
London
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Perhaps people living in separate rooms/accommodations.
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Hi Heywood, thanks for the messages
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Thank you
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have just realised that stephen had another son in 1907 lastt address was 50 bastwick st holborn. used all the credits now looking at hatfield street. 5 rooms in bastwick st :-\
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That's bad. :'(
Was that definitely the last child?
Was he a jeweller's porter in 1907? I searched on 1911 census index for a Stephen/Palmer etc with that occupation but nothing showed.
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Yes 1907 was the last child. Not sure on occupation have not got the last childs birth cert. But in 1905 he was a Porter and in 1928 and 1941. So I think he was a porter in 1907
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Last thing- what was the last child's name?
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Births Sep 1907
PALMER Stephen Alfred Holborn 1b 637. DOB 24/06/1907
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Cant seem to find Stephen Alfred Palmer in 1911 either.
Hope someone can help!
Request removed.
Please do not ask for look ups from 1911 census.[/color]
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Sadly the whole family appear to be missing :(
I'd be surprised if they were travellers in the sense that we think of them today,as both of them signed their marriage cert,which usually means that they were well educated.
Have also been trying to find dad Stephen's WW1 army service record,no luck there either ::)
Carol
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It is just so strange that they are missing but lived in Islington as I found all the baptism records for their children!!
I wonder why they didn't fill in the census forms??? I can find Janes family in the census quite easily.
I have been told that they may have lived on a boat, so they may have been on the boat at the time of the census????
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Yes 1907 was the last child. Not sure on occupation have not got the last childs birth cert. But in 1905 he was a Porter and in 1928 and 1941. So I think he was a porter in 1907
This area of London surrounds the Smithfield Meat Market and the old Billingsgate Fish Market. There would have been hundreds of porters working in that area.
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Found this William in 1881, his occupation was Carman and the people he was staying with were Coal Porters. I know Stephen was a Coal Dealer/Carman in c1901.
Would someone be able to see what this William was doing in 1891-1901 please
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You should try investigating the Bullock family. Quite often, people described on censuses as boarders and visitors were actually related. Ann Bullock could have been Stephen's married sister, or either of them could be cousins. I'll take a look to see what I can find on William, but unfortunately Palmer is a very popular name, and there will be lots of 'hits'.
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Thank you Nick, the surname Pamer does seem to be very common name when you are looking for someone :)
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When Stephen and Jane married in April 1894 his dad William is described as a traveller. Could mean a traveller like we think of a salesman today.
Wonder if we can find him in 1891 just 3 years before.......or did Stephen just invent a dad for respectability?
Carol
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Hi Carol, it could be a possibility but if Stephen did make up his fathers name and occupation why cant Stephen be found in any census or any other record???
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When Stephen and Jane married in April 1894 his dad William is described as a traveller. Could mean a traveller like we think of a salesman today.
Wonder if we can find him in 1891 just 3 years before.......or did Stephen just invent a dad for respectability?
Carol
Yes, I agree. Many blacksmiths and farriers were travelling people, and William Palmer described himself as both on Stephen's marriage record.
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Why couldn't they have just put Farrier/Blacksmith?? Wouldn't have Stephen followed in his fathers footsteps instead of being just a porter.
I can only find William in 1861 with parents Thomas and Ann plus siblings. He seems to dissapear in 1891-1901??
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If you follow this family through the cencus in 1901 William is a traveller in Jewellery which may fit in with Timothy being a Jewellers porter and William being a Traveller but yet again still no Stephen mentioned???
Also Stephen lived in Shoreditch in 1901
1881 England Census
about William Palmer
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RootsChat must deal with any breach of copyright by its members.
For some time the team of Copyright Editors has been removing breaches of copyright and sending detailed personal messages to the member that had posted the information. Due to the volume of posts and members this is now impractical. Messages in breach will simply be deleted and this notice posted. We apologise for any inconvenience caused but are sure you will appreciate the importance of this issue.
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It's also worth considering that many travelling people were missed off censuses.
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I agree Nick. I think my search for Stephen and William end here. I think they were travellers of some kind and was never around to complete a census
Thank you all who helped me try and find them all the help has been very much appreciated
Ellen
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Maybe it will all become clearer when the 1921 census is released in 2022 8)
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hopefully but it wont mention stephens father. i no where he was and what he was doing around 1921 due to having his childrens marriage certs. but will still have a look...roll on 2022 :)
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If you think thye were Travelling folk as in Romany / Gypsy, why not post on a specialist site, there are also 'libraries'of the records bing built up!
Google
Romanyconnections
Romanyjib
Romanygenes
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Thanks for that elzabels will have a look now :)
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Just had a look and the surname Palmer doesn't seem to be listed. Had a look through census from 1871-1901 and cant find William or Stephen??? ???
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Of course, it's just possible that either Stephen or his wife didn't like the name, and he called himself something else ? :)
There does appear to be quite a lot of Palmers around the Spitalfields area. Some of them must be related ;)
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Hi Nick, wonder why he put them down in 1901?
There is mention of them maybe living on a boat but dont know when?
Is there anywhere I can look to see info on Boatman or people who used to live on boats back in the 1800's??
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Do you think Stephen could have changed his name and that is why we cant find him?? He could have been named William Andrew Palmer or William Stephen Palmer or something??
Could that be a possibility??
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Anything is possible. You have to think about all the possibilities. He could well have switched the names around, or dropped the Stephen in favour of Andrew :)
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Just had a look and there is no Andrew Palmer's with the father's name as William :(
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I wonder where the name "Andrew "comes from? Stephen and Janes first son was called
William Andrew, their second child was named
Jane Elizabeth (Jane after her mother and Elizabeth after her grandmother)they named their last child
Stephen Alfred??
Thought they would have caled their first child Stephen??
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I think there's a convention..... 1st child after the parent, 2nd child after the gradparent, etc. I can't remember it all, but I'm sure that someone will. Of course, not everyone stuck to it ::)
Unfortunately the old saying 'There's nowt as queer as folk' applied as much to previous generations as it does to ours :)
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Hmmmm!! I was thinking maybe Stephens father was called William Andrew Palmer (on stephen and janes marriage cert janes father only put timothy connelly but his full name was timothy john connelly so william only put william palmer instead of william andrew palmer).
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Hi, putting Stephen and William Palmer to one side...would someone be so kind to help me find info on his first som William Andrew Palmer b.1895 Holborn d.1982 Islington .please
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What sort of info are you looking for ?
I assume you have the birth and death certs ?
Birth Q1 1895, Holborn, (Middlesex) London, Vol. 1b p. 183
Death Q3 1982, Islington, London Vol 13 p. 1277 (DOB: 23 Nov 1894).
There's too many Palmers to find him in 1911 (no-one with the middle name Andrew).
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I would like to find out who he married and any possible children he may have had. I don't think I will be able to find him though as there are so many William A Palmer's around 1915. I have a possible marriage for him to a May B Wingrove but am unsure of that one?? I have all his siblings marriages apart from Mary Ann as she died in 1899 and John I can not find anywhere (birth,baptism and death)so he must of died sometime after 1901 maybe???
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Do you have an elderly relative in the family who might know more ? Quite often relatives say they don't know anything, and then you spend hours plodding through the records and find something, and then they say 'Oh yes, I knew that' ::)
If you have a relative like that, it might be worth mentioning a few names to them, to see if they ring a bell :)
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I have spoke to family members but they don't know very little about the Palmer's. Stephen passed away before any of them were born. The only thing I was told about them was that there were Travellers in the family and they may have lived on boats?? Stephen's son Edward b.1905 used to be a boxer and there is a photo of him in one of the pubs down Old Kent Rd in London. William Andrew Palmer was a witness to Edwards marriage in 1928.
Edward died when he was quite young (aged 40)so they don't know much about him either!!
I was told to look up "Pedlar Palmer" the famous boxer as he was a relation but cant find any connection with my Palmer family, but my Palmer family do know quite a bit about Pedler Palmer!!
I don't think any of them like saying too much about the Palmer's??
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I was told to look up "Pedlar Palmer" the famous boxer as he was a relation but cant find any connection with my Palmer family, but my Palmer family do know quite a bit about Pedler Palmer!!
Suggest you google Pedlar Palmer, there are quite a number of people claiming a connection to im. He was b 1876 died 1949 Sussex.: married Margaret McKay 1896, had ( I think) 4 children and numerous love child's!
A romany/gypsy connection, there is information on romanygenes that MAY link the Palmer family to the Cooper/Lee romany famillies
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Hi Elzabels, where abouts did you find a link between the Cooper/Lee romany families?? I cant see it
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The only Plamers I have found so far on RomanyGenes are
Baptisms
1863 12th April St Lukes Kensington/Chelsea * double Baptism*
Lydia Isabella Palmer b Sept 10th 1856
Masella Palmer b 13th Sept 1858
Noah & Britannia Cooper/ Palmer -horsedealer – 10 Hans place
1864 10th Jan All St Pancras Camden
Charles Palmer Noah & Britannia Palmer -horsedealer – 5 Claredon Yard Rochester Mews