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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Winterbloom21 on Wednesday 12 October 11 11:03 BST (UK)
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Well, as I don't seem to be having any luck with my appeal on William, maybe there is somebody out there that might be able to help me with his great grandfather, George.
My ggg grandfather George Serjeant was a cabinetmaker, born in London who, if two of the censuses in which he appears are to be trusted in any way, was born in either 1791/1792. There are two baptismal candidates for these years:
George Serjeant born 14.11.1792, christened 2.12.1792 at St. Leonards Shoreditch, parents John and Ann Serjeant of Black Dog Alley.
Or, George Serjeant christened 21.8.1791 at St. George in the East, Stepney, parents George and Elizabeth Serjeant, of Ratcliffe Highway, father is a watchmaker.
I thought I had a clue from the 1861 census, where in the column 'where born' it says Middlesex St. Pancras and then, in pencil 'Commercial Road'. I thought that Commercial Rd was pretty near Ratcliffe Highway and that must be the one. However, I know now that Commercial Road was just fields in the early 1790s, so that's not right. Even Commercial Street, (if that is what was meant) in the Shoreditch area, wasn't fully developed until the 1840s, though apparently there must have been something there before because they mentioned slum clearance in the article I read.
I've looked up all potential siblings, but it doesn't really get me anywhere. Unfortunately, none of the christening records for the other children of John and Ann give an occupation for him, either.
Has anybody got any suggestions that might help me?
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Hello
I've just come across your post as I am also researching the "Serjeant" line. I believe this George Sejeant is my 4th Great Grandfather. The branch I am following is through his son James and his son (James Thomas) with his second wife Ann Mary Elizabeth Murphy.
I haven't yet researched any further back on George but I wanted to check if you had any further information on his parents. I see you were looking for a bapitsm entry did you have any luck in confirming his parents? I do have a tree on Ancestry and happy to share any information with you.
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From census we have George born abt 1791, and luckily 1861 census gives place of birth as “Commercial Rd”.
We know that he was literate / educated – appears to have been fairly well-off financially. He had a good profession as a cabinet maker, and would have served an apprenticeship. Sons all went into good trades as cabinet makers, piano makers and printers. So he did not come from a family of labourers.
I believe this is the most likely option:
George Sergeant Baptism 21 Aug 1791
St George in the East, Tower Hamlets
Father George Sergeant a watch maker, and Elizabeth
A sister ……
Elizabeth Jane Seargent Baptism 13 Sep 1793
St George in the East, Tower Hamlets
Father George Sergeant a watch maker, and Elizabeth
Abode: New Road
(Note: New Road and Commercial Rd intersect at Whitechapel / Stepney; not far from the church St George in the East)
Possible marriage: 25 Dec 1789 St Paul Shadwell, Tower Hamlets
George SERJEANT (widower) to Elizabeth CAMM
Both signed names
Adding a link to thread on the same family.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=866767.0
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I think this might be George’s previous (1st ) marriage
6 May 1783 Wapping, Tower Hamlets
George SERGEANT bachelor to Mary BATTY spinster
Both bride and groom sign
I think George’s signature on the 2 marriage documents looks fairly similar.
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I think this might be George’s previous (1st ) marriage
6 May 1783 Wapping, Tower Hamlets
George SERGEANT bachelor to Mary BATTY spinster
Both bride and groom sign
I think George’s signature on the 2 marriage documents looks fairly similar.
Thank you! I wish the marriage Banns had details on the couples fathers.
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On the second marriage in 1789, there is a witness with the surname Serjeant. It is hard to work out the first name - maybe Jas (James) or Jno (John). This is obviously a relative - a brother or father?
It might be a useful lead to research further.
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I was looking at that, it is very hard to make out the first name, looks like an initial at first. I will look into it further.
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I think the witness looks like James SERJEANT - "Jas"
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I think the witness looks like James SERJEANT - "Jas"
Thanks for taking a look. James is a common family name through this family, haven't not come across any John's so it is most likely.
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1779 - 30 May, St Katherine by the Tower, Tower Hamlets
James SERJEANT married Ann CAMM.
So it looks as if 2 brothers married 2 sisters.
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oh wow thankyou, I've come across another set of siblings marrying in this family.
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YEs I have a number of siblings marrying siblings, in my tree - more common than you would think.
PROGRESS!!
Children of James Serjeant and Ann CAMM
• James 30 Apr 1780 St Botolph, Aldgate, London (Abode: Red Gate Crt, Minories)
• John born Aug 1781, bapt 2 Feb 1814 St Botolph, Aldgate, London (Abode: Red Gate Crt, Minories) Father’s occ: Tin Plate worker
• Jane 9 May 1784 St Botolph (Abode: Red Gate Crt, Minories)
• George 11 Dec 1785 St Botolph, Aldgate, London (Abode: Red Gate Crt, Minories)
• Ann 21 Dec 1787 St Botolph, Aldgate, London (Abode: Red Gate Crt, Minories)
James was a tin plate worker (see 1814 baptism).
This will probably be his apprentice papers:
6 Nov 1757 Apprentice papers
James Serjeant, son of George Serjeant of St Leonards, Shoreditch, (occupation silk thrower)
Was apprenticed to Henry Marjorum, Tin Plate worker of London
James Sergeant baptised St Leonard's, Shoreditch
15 Jan 1743
Father George Sergeant, Mother Ann (abode: Long Alley)
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oh wow thank you, I've been digging around Ancestry for a few hours and haven't found anything. Your right working side ways can get results thanks to this brother!
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Now we know the father George Serjeant was working in the silk weaving industry, we might ponder the possibility that the family came originally from France. The Huguenot weavers arrived from the late 1600s - 1700s and settled in the east of London, Spitalfields area. “Serjeant” using the 'j' is the French spelling of “Sergeant”.
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That could be a possibility, my dad does have French DNA matches but I've never been able to find a connection. His Ethnicity results on Ancestry do not show anything for France but they do when I run them through My Heritage. I will check what his other cousins show when they do their DNA tests and I will revisit this DNA matches. So I'm guessing over time the French spelling got Anglicised over time which ended up with my Dad's surname spelt Sergeant.
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“Serjeant” using the 'j' is the French spelling of “Sergeant”.
While this is entirely true, I don't think it is necessarily a strong pointer to the Huguenots. The word Serjeant had been in use in England since Norman times to denote various offices, most notably in the Army, but also in the civilian appointment of Serjeant at Arms. This spelling persisted until the late nineteenth century and indeed it is still used in the regiment known as the Rifles, and in the appointment of the Serjeant at Arms in the House of Commons.
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“Serjeant” using the 'j' is the French spelling of “Sergeant”.
While this is entirely true, I don't think it is necessarily a strong pointer to the Huguenots. The word Serjeant had been in use in England since Norman times to denote various offices, most notably in the Army, but also in the civilian appointment of Serjeant at Arms. This spelling persisted until the late nineteenth century and indeed it is still used in the regiment known as the Rifles, and in the appointment of the Serjeant at Arms in the House of Commons.
Thank you, thats also something to consider.
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I think my post was misunderstood. I was merely “pondering the possibility” of a French connection. I did not mention any “strong pointer” to the Huguenots.
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Neale1961. I didn't mean to imply that that was what you were suggesting. My comment was prompted by Korowe's response, in which I thought he might have become focussed on that sort of connection. I suppose my point was that, yes, the family could have been directly descended from a French forebear, which might include someone who came over in the eleventh century at the time of the Norman invasion, but equally they could have taken their family name from the office of serjeant held by an English ancestor a dozen or so generations back (cf John Constable).
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Hi Andy J2022, many thanks for your reply I understand where you are coming from. There are so many possibilities and I'm making note of them all for further research. I appreciate everyones help and input especially as my knowledge of English history is somewhat limited. Cheers Julie
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Back to George Serjeant the watch maker who married Elizabeth Camm, and his brother James, the tin-plate worker who married Ann Camm.
I think this is the marriage for their parents:-
Clandestine Marriage
28 Dec 1739 - St Botolph Bishopsgate, London
George SERJENT of St Botolph Bishopsgate, occupation - Silk Throwster
To
Ann DREADCRAFT of ditto (St Botolph Bishopsgate), Sp (spinster), WK ?
“Silk Throwster” (Thrower) – employed in the silk industry, twisting silk into yarn.
[Dreadcraft is an unusual surname, isn’t it?]
London Metropolitan Archives has items for a George Serjeant of Bishopgate, although it is difficult to know exactly what – but might be worth further investigation. There seem to be other Sergeant families in the Bishopgate area, so it may relate to a different George.
https://search.lma.gov.uk/SCRIPTS/MWIMAIN.DLL/382889066/2/23/4878063?RECORD&UNION=Y&URLMARKER=STARTREQUEST
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Julie, apologies for ascribing the male gender to you! No excuse.
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Regarding a baptism for George (the watchmaker). We know his father was of “St Leonards Shoreditch”, when he signed James’ apprentice papers in 1757.
It is NOT this one (just posting for interest):
George Serjeant baptised St Leonard's, Shoreditch
13 May 1757 (born 2 march)
Father George Sergeant, Mother Ann (abode: Hoxton sq)
HE DIED at 3 months (address Hoxton Sq)
But it could well be this one:
George SARJANT baptised St Leonard's, Shoreditch
Born 21st July, baptised 3 Aug 1760
Father George Sarjant, Mother Ann (abode: Hoxton square)
That would have George aged about 23, when he first married in 1783.
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Burial for Ann Serjeant (nee Dreadcraft)
Ann Serjeant, age 70, Abode Hoxton town
21 Jan 1789 St Leonard's, Shoreditch
Possible baptism for her:
Anne DREDCRAFT - baptised 21 Feb 1719
St Mary, Whitechapel, Tower Hamlets
Father: Henry, Mother: Susanna. Abode – Peacock Court
I am not having any luck finding burials for any of the George Serjeants. ???
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Julie, apologies for ascribing the male gender to you! No excuse.
All good no offence taken, it's easily done. I very much appreciate all your help.
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I have not found an apprentice indenture for George S (clock maker), but I have found the following:
Register of Duties Paid for Apprentices
10 Nov 1775 London
Apprentice: George Serjeant
Master: John Spateman, pewterer of London
(There are few records of Jno Spateman taking on apprentices in the preceding decade.)
Me thinking aloud - speculation: 1775 would be right for George beginning his apprenticeship a year earlier, at about 14-15 yrs. The pewtering trade would be related (a little up-market) to that of his brother James (tin-plater). You might think the father would put his sons into similar trades.
It is not clock making, but I wonder if George moved into the making of decorative pewter clock and watch cases. I cannot find George in registers of London watch makers, although there are others with the surname Serjeant. If George, specialising in making cases, was working alongside an horologist, he might call himself a “watch maker”.
I don’t imagine it is a question that can be answered, but something to consider anyway.
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Thank you so much Neale1961 for all this information, i would not have found it so quickly or even at all. I need to find some time over the weekend to go through this all. I have to make certain that we have the right George Serjeant line. This seems to be a very common name.
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I have been sorting through my notes, and found this item that I did not post previously. It is just for interest - it links witnesses at marriages.
George Serjeant married 4 Dec 1814 St George, Hanover Square to Ann JAMES
Witnesses were Robert Wightman and his wife Ann.
Robert Wightman married 30 Jan 1814 St George, Hanover Square to Ann WICK
Witnesses were George Serjeant and future wife Ann James
George S. and Robert W. appear to have been friends.
Robert Wightman lived in St Pancras, occupation “white smith”, according to baptism of his 4 children.
Robert was born 8 Dec 1793, baptised 5 Jan 1794 St Leonard Shoreditch (abode- Hoxton)
His parents: John WIGHTMAN and Ann GREEN – married Shoreditch 1785. The father deserted the family in 1799.