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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Glamorganshire Lookup Requests => Glamorganshire => Wales => Glamorganshire Completed Lookups => Topic started by: Aus_Mike on Friday 14 October 11 15:43 BST (UK)
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Hi,
Would anyone be able to assist with finding records of David HOWARD & Elizabeth ELLIS in St. Nicholas, Glamorganshire around 1830-1855?
David & Elizabeth are listed as parents on John HOWARD's 1918 NSW death cert at age 74 (born ~1844). The death cert also lists his birthplace as Newbridge, Monmouthshire but his daughter's 1870 VIC birth cert (for which John was Informant) lists his birthplace as St. Nicholas which I favour.
The 1851 Wales Census lists John HOWARD (nephew, 9) and Mary HOWARD (niece, 15) living in St. Nicholas with William ELLIS (head, 46) and Ann (69, mother/widow) creating a link between the HOWARD and ELLIS families. A Lodger, William HOWARD, 55, was married to Gwenllian Edwards with daughter Mary (b. 1828) [FamilySearch] and does not appear to be a close relative to John and Mary.
The 1841 Census lists Richard (head, 60) and Ann (wife, 60) ELLIS in St. Nicholas with Mary (female, 6). Richard & Ann had at least 8 children (William 1802, Anne 1805, Thomas 1808, Richard 1812, John 1820, Mary 1820, James 1822 and Edward 1825) but I can find no reference to Elizabeth with Richard & Ann as parents. Nor can I find a reference to Mary & John as children of David & Elizabeth HOWARD.
Conversely, a David and Margaret HOWARD had 4 children in Glamorgan at this time: Mary 1835, Catherine 1838, Jane 1839 (all Cowbridge) and John 1841 (Penlline) [FamilySearch] and a Margaret Howard died in Glamorgan in 1845 (Bridgend Q3/26/222).
But I can find no record of a David & Margaret HOWARD marriage nor of an Ann HOWARD death in Glamorganshire in this period. (Ann possibly died Bridgend 1864/Q2/11a/291). Nor can I find a marriage of David HOWARD and Elizabeth ELLIS between 1845 (Margaret's death) and 1851 Census (with John as "nephew").
The only David HOWARD I can find who is native to St. Nicholas is David William HOWARD (b. 1791) who married Ann PRICE in 1817 and had 8 children between 1818 & 1833 [FamilySearch & A......y].
The 1851 Census lists David (brewer, 26), William (lodger, 22) and Elizabeth (servant, 20) HOWARD in Evan Howett's "Travellers Rest" but these are all unmarried and the ages do not fit.
There is also a David HOWARD who married Margaret Jane NEWMAN in Portsmouth on 08/05/1826 [Familysearch].
So ...
- Was there just one David HOWARD who married Ann PRICE in 1817, Margaret xxxx in ~1834 and Elizabeth ELLIS in ~1847 ?
- Or did the Portsmouth David HOWARD bring his Margaret to Glamorgan and then married Elizabeth after Margaret's passing?
- Was Margaret XXXX John HOWARD's birth mother and Elizabeth Ellis his step-mother?
- Or is there some other explanation?
- And where are the records of Elizabeth ELLIS? Was she really Anne Elizabeth or Mary Elizabeth ELLIS?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Mike
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just picking at bits here -
David Howard married Margaret Ellis 22/1/1835 in St Nicholas, both otp.
Margaret Howard aged 39 buried 8/8/1845 in St Nicholas.
Given that David will not have given the info on his death cert, could his mother's name have been misremembered?
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from the new FamilySearch site,
Margaret Ellis bp 14/3/1807 dau of Richard & Ann in St Nicholas
https://www.familysearch.org/
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Osprey,
Thank you so much for the info and for you prompt response. My apologies for not seeing Margaret ELLIS as a possibility and consuming your time on it.
Re: Margaret's name: I think it's possible that John mis-remembered his mother's name but more likely that that is was not properly passed on to John's son, Charles, who was Informant for John's 1918 NSW death cert. Recall, as John travelled alone to AUS (no matching BDM, passenger or convict records for David), Charles would never have known his paternal grandparents. Similar circumstnaces apply to Charles' maternal grandparents who's names are completely missing from his mother's 1943 NSW death cert (Elizabeth HOWARD ne. BELL age 91).
I've now found Margaret's birth on FamilySearch (thank you) but not David and Margaret's marriage. Is it there and I've missed it? Or are you using some parish register site / CD to find this? I'm interested in purchasing an image / copy of the original marriage register entry if that's possible?
This leaves David. Was he the same David William HOWARD as married Ann PRICE? Or was he somebody different?
The 1851 Census lists David William HOWARD as being in the workhouse in Neath - a possible reason for John and Mary to be with their grandmother Ann ELLIS. However, as I mentioned, I found no record of the death of Ann HOWARD in Glamorgan between 1830 & 1840 which would increase the chance of David's re-marriage. (As is probably obvious, I'm using only Free-BMD, FamilySearch and A......y. Are there others I should try?)
Do you have any suggestions?
Thanks & Regards,
Mike
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Osprey,
Thought I'd get back to you straight away as I have now found Ann HOWARD's death (1833) on FamilySearch under her maiden name, PRICE. There is also a cross-link from David William HOWARD's entry which I had missed. My apologies; I'm a novice at this.
I believe the 1851 Census David HOWARD (brewer, 26) is actually David William's son; the names and ages of David jnr, William and Elizabeth roughly match David William's children on FamilySearch.
Based on this and the lack of other David HOWARDs in Glamorgan at the time, I'll continue my research on the basis that David William married Margaret ELLIS in 1835.
Regarding my other questions, I've found that the National Library of Wales has copies of parish registers and have sent an enquiry to them about obtaining one.
However, I would still like to know which source you used to find David and Margaret's marriage entry, if that's OK with you, as I have another family branch (Jarrett) in Wales.
Thanks & Regards,
Mike
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the marriage is on FreeReg - transcribed parish records, not complete but very useful.
http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl
You can get a copy of the parish entry from the archives in Cardiff
http://www.glamro.gov.uk/Services.html
The baptisms for the children of David Howard are there. The occupation of David married to Ann is shown as pig dealer, chapman, & farmer. That of David married to Margaret is publican. There was also a daughter Jane baptised in Cowbridge in 1837.
Where did you find the burial info on FamilySearch? There are very few burial records apart from submitted ones which need to be confirmed from other sources as they are not reliable - sometimes invented to fit someone's theory. Also, it would be unusual for a woman's burial to be in her maiden name in Wales. It happens in Scotland, but I've not come across it at this time in Wales.
:-\
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burial of Ann Howard is on FreeReg 18/3/1834 age 41 in St Nicholas as Howard
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Osprey,
Thanks for the referrral for FreeReg. I'd seen it around but didn't know how useful it would be.
The FamilySearch death / burial for Ann Price was from a submitted tree (Pedigree Resource File) resulting from this search:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/records#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Aann%20%2Bsurname%3Aprice%20%2Bdeath_place%3AGLAMORGAN%20%2Bdeath_year%3A1830-1840~
The tree has Ann's entry with links across to David, down to the children and up to her parents. Also I note the warning at the foot of the page - similar to your advice. Re the maiden name, probably this is because it is part of a tree with Ann as the wife of David - it's not a parish registry entry pre se.
Thanks also for the note about David becoming a publican. I had noticed that the address for the births of their last 4 children had changed from "St. Nicholas" to "Broadway, St. Nicholas" and wondered if his circumstances had changed.
With that, I'll mark this post as "complete" (I believe that's the "custom") and say "thank you very much" for all your time, help and advice.
Sadly, we have one other thing in common ... we're now both out of the Rugby World Cup. :'(
Best Regards,
Mike
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one last thing. I'd been trying to find Cowbridge on the 1841 census to check for Margaret as that was given as her abode on the burial entry on FreeReg. The piece covering Cowbridge for 1841 is missing!
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/helpadvice/knowledge-base/census/index.jsp#issues
::)
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Aha !!!
That's perhaps why I could never find Catherine & Jane (and David & Margaret) in the 1841 Census. Perhaps they were in Cowbridge while Mary was in St. Nicholas.
Thanks again.
Best regards,
Mike