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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Andcarred on Monday 28 November 11 03:18 GMT (UK)
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Hi All,
I am searching for birth and death information on a Raphael Simmons. He was possibly born in London c1861. Not on census or Free BDM that I can see. Came from London on ship Houghton Tower November 1881 aged 19 years. Married in Sydney 1883 Kate Israel (Congregational) and again in Melbourne (Jewish) 1885 also to Kate Israel. Second marriage cert acknowledges the existence of the previous marriage but still describes them as bachelor and spinster.
The Sydney marriage cert says he lived in Woolloomooloo, his father is George Simmons, mother not mentioned, and he was born in London. His Melbourne marriage cert gives no parents. Age is also variable and does not agree with shipping records ie Sydney cert says he was 25. His wife Kate Israel was definitely under age (15 or 16) and no parents permission. Is this the reason for 2 marriages?
George Simmons was said to be a shop keeper but I don't know if this was in London or Australia. I cannot find any evidence of a George Simmons coming to Australia.
Raphael Simmons (some times called himself Ralph) and Kate Israel had 6 children all born in Melbourne between 1885 and 1897 Then Raphael mysteriously disappeared and I can't find a remarriage or a death. His occupation was sometimes given as grocer. He was certainly not around when the children were growing up and Kate was working as a cleaner to support the family. Couldn't find him on Victorian inquests.
Any help with this brick wall would be most appreciated.
Andcarred
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Hi
FreeBMD has a birth for a Raphael SIMONS East London 1862??
Likely??
Karenlee
NOTE... not likely, he is in London for 1891 and 1901 Census so scrap that. Sorry.
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Hi there,
Have you gained access to the Congregational church's register (rather than just the NSW BDM cert) to see who gave consent for Kate to marry? Also, I think the main reason for the second marriage is likely to be because at least one (either the bride or the groom) were seeking to have a Jewish ceremony, and thus to continue to practise their religion. I think Judaism comes down the female lines rather than the male lines, but I stand to be corrected.
Cheers, JM
Hi All,
I am searching for birth and death information on a Raphael Simmons. He was possibly born in London c1861. Not on census or Free BDM that I can see. Came from London on ship Houghton Tower November 1881 aged 19 years. Married in Sydney 1883 Kate Israel (Congregational) and again in Melbourne (Jewish) 1885 also to Kate Israel. Second marriage cert acknowledges the existence of the previous marriage but still describes them as bachelor and spinster.
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Hi
There is a Raphael Simmons mentioned giving evidence in an article about a Treason court case.
I found it in Trove Newspapers website.
Argus Melbourne Newspaper of Saturday 14th October 1916 (Page 16)
"Raphael Simmons, Managing Director of Mick Simmons Ltd."
Sorry, I haven't been able to give you a link to the exact page. :'(
Noells
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/14748950?searchTerm=raphael simmons&searchLimits=
here it is
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He made a will
The Sydney Morning Herald (NSW : 1842 - 1954) Thursday 8 December 1949 p 9 Article
Will Of Mr.
R. M. Simmons
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The late Mr. Raphael Mendora Simmons, managing director of Mick Simmons Ltd.,. whose will was admitted to probate yester- day, bequeathed his estate of £23,815 to his widow and rela- tives.
To his widow he left outright £3,000, their Darling * Point home, and his cars and race- horses, and also a life income from the residuary estate.
On her death, the income from the residuary estate will go to testator's brother, Samuel Sim- mons for his life, and this estate will go, on his death, to testator's niece, Betty Roadnight.
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Hi
Here is the divorce
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/14861267?searchTerm=divorce simmons v simmons raphael&searchLimits=
Muss
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Hi
Not a divorce - a court case
Muss
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Hi,
Victorian Government Gazette, 17th Feb 1888, page 544.
PUBLIC SERVICE BOARD.—NON-CLERICAL DIVISION
The following candidates have duly passed the Examination for the above Division held on 17th December 1887.
Included in the list was Raphael Simmons.
Melbourne Directory 1893 (Sands)
Simmons, Raphael, 18 Watkins-st, N. F.
Regards
Gerry
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Hi
Obit notice
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/18123788?searchTerm=r simmons&searchLimits=
Muss
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REG 14714 IN 1949 SIMMONS RAPHAEL MENDOZA
Father MICHAEL HENRY
Mother MARY
SYDNEY
Not the parents suggested by the OP!!
Sue
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Here is his wife's Melbourne death
SIMMONS Kate
Father Israel Saml
Mother Maria WEYMAN
Death Place MALVERN
Age 58
Year 1924
Reg Number 6134
Sue
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A possible marriage for the RAPHAEL MENDOZA
REG 486 In 1898 SIMMONS RAPHAEL M
To HARNEY KATHLEEN
SYDNEY
Sue
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There were probably two persons called Raphael Simmons because while your Raphael was in Melboune 1885-1897 there was a Raphael Simmons, newsagent in Leichhardt in 1888 at Trafalgar St.
Gerry
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I was thinking that too Aussie.
My main reason for this is if he had 6 kids why did he leave his neice his money!
Sorry to lead you up the garden path Andycarred.
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Yes, Gerry,
The one that Andcarred is seeking was in Melbourne having chldren etc. through he 90's
His son NORMAN HENRY SIMMONS enlisted in ww1 from CARLTON and later in 1969. died in Sydney
His daughter STELLA SIMMONS, married in Melbourne to ARTHUR HALL and had chidren.
Sue
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Hi there,
So did both the Raphael Simmons chaps marry lasses named Kate Israel? Was/were there two Kate Israel lasses? One in Melbourne and one in Sydney?
I hope someone can UN confuse me please....
Cheers, JM
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Hi,
Thanks so much to all for the speedy replies. Yes there were two Raphael Simmons and the one I am looking for is not the Mick Simmons one. I believe there might turn out to be a relationship between the two, maybe nephew and uncle, but no proof as yet. Then again it could just be coincidence.
Cheers,
Andcarred
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hi Jm
No, not 2 KATE's As Andcarred's op explains, the same couple had 2 marriage services, one in NSW and one in VIC.
The couple stayed in Vic and this Raphael disappeared.
Yes, 2 RAPHAEL's one in Vic, (ours) and one in NSW married to another and becoming wealthy.
Sue
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Hi JM,
My last reply crossed with yours. No there was only one Kate Israel. There was a notation on the transcript of the NSW Marriage Cert that the parents names and other details had been transferred from the Parish Register onto the Marriage Cert. No mention of anyone giving permission for the marriage, I think they possibly lied about their ages and both were Jewish. I also think they moved to Melbourne because of family opposition to the marriage but this is only a theory and no proof.
Andcarred
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Hi Gerry,
Your piece from the Vic Govt Gazette is very interesting. I think this is my man but can't imagine what sort of position he was seeking with the public service. Can anyone suggest what someone in a Non Clerical Division would need to do an examination for. ??? ???
Victorian Government Gazette, 17th Feb 1888, page 544.
PUBLIC SERVICE BOARD.—NON-CLERICAL DIVISION
The following candidates have duly passed the Examination for the above Division held on 17th December 1887.
Included in the list was Raphael Simmons.
Melbourne Directory 1893 (Sands)
Simmons, Raphael, 18 Watkins-st, N. F.
Andcarred
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Thanks for explaining there was only one Kate Israel...
NON CLERICAL POSITIONS :P :P :P
;D
Inspector of Nuisances ;D but that would be a Municipal position, not a Colonial position surely?
Huuummmmphhh splutterrrrrr ..... errrrr .... Was it a written examination that he duly passed?
Cheers, JM
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On Saturday, 6th inst., Civil Service examinations were held at Melbourne, Ballarat, Geelong, Hamilton, Sandhurst, Castlemaine, Beechworth, Seymour, Maryborough, and Sale. There were 220 candidates for non-clerical positions in the service -warders, telegraph messengers, telegraph line labourers, assistant instrument fitters, inspectors of works, foresters, junior messengers, gardeners, night watchmen, firemen, boatmen, mail drivers, and turncocks
TROVE rescued me ;D ;D
VICTORIAN ITEMS.The Mercury (Hobart, Tas. : 1860 - 1954) Thursday 11 March 1886
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9118805
Cheers, JM
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1904 Wise's Private Residential Directory:
Mrs Kate SIMMONS
269a Rathdowne St, Carlton
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1904 Wise's Private Residential Directory:
Mrs Kate SIMMONS
269a Rathdowne St, Carlton
Which was also the address of the enlistee NORMAN HENRY SIMMONS in 1916.
Sue
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Victorian Gazette January 31st 1889, page 105.
Department of Posmaster-General
MAINTENANCE
Line Labourers ( Non Clerical)
No on page, 9, Simmons, R. born 23. 3. 62, stationed at Ballarat, first appointed 27th March 1888.
On page 143 is an index list of Officers.
Simmons Raphael, General Post Office, page 105, No on page, 9.
Regards
Gerry
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Well Gerry
That was deep dig indeed!! ;D
What an interesting find. Amazing. :D
Sue
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Well found Gerry, agree with Sue, that was indeed a deep dig. I had tried without success ::) :-[ :-[
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,369963.0.html (Vic Resources on RChat)
Government Gazettes
http://gazette.slv.vic.gov.au/
So R Simmons was born 23 March 1862, but where :P
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM,
My last reply crossed with yours. No there was only one Kate Israel. There was a notation on the transcript of the NSW Marriage Cert that the parents names and other details had been transferred from the Parish Register onto the Marriage Cert. No mention of anyone giving permission for the marriage, I think they possibly lied about their ages and both were Jewish. I also think they moved to Melbourne because of family opposition to the marriage but this is only a theory and no proof.
Andcarred
Agh, the notation on the transcript of that mc means that THAT Parish Register had been reconciled with the NSW BDM records. The notation should give the date of that reconciliation, most likely around 1912-1914. Prior to that reconciliation the NSW BDM record would not have included the details for the bride and groom's parents, nor the ages of the bride and groom. The reconciled record SHOULD include the details of the person giving consent, as this would have been recorded by the clergy at the time of the NSW marriage. It is not always easy to spot that particular detail on the Parish Register, BUT it should be on the PR. It is generally found in the "white space" near to the details of the Church, and "according to the rites of the ....." so it should be in the general area between the two sets of columns. However, I have also seen a couple of reconciled mcs where it was found in the area around the "Officiating Minister" signature, and thus almost excluded from the digitised scan. It was definitely a requirement that the clergy obtain consent where any person who was not yet 21 years of age was seeking to marry. So, the then ages of the bride and groom should also be on that mc.
:) :) What was the Church and the denomination for the NSW ceremony please (as I am interested in knowing which PRs have been reconciled, not all of Sydney's PRs were reconciled, and most of the non Metro ones have not ever been reconciled).
Cheers, JM
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Hi Gerry, Sue and JM,
Thanks for such great information, so many knowledgeable people on this site. Looks like Kate stayed in Melbourne while the husband went to Ballarat as all the children are born in inner city Melbourne.
The Sydney MC was from a transcription agent. The Church was congregational and the reconciliation was done in 1915. Still no mother's name added. A relative has the transcript at the moment but from memory I think it gave his age as 25 and hers as 21. Neither is correct. There was definitely no permission given by any adult. The witnesses are strangers, no family from either side attended apparently. The ceremony took place in the Minister's residence, not in the Church.
Now for the hunt for his birth place. Both MCs say he was born in London and all the other Simmons I have found in Sydney have come from Whitechapel so I suppose that is the place to start. Having a definite date of birth (if we can believe him) should make it a bit easier.
Cheers,
Andcarred
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Not at all unusual for marriage to have taken place at the Minister's Manse, suggesting to me that either or both the bride and groom may not have been regulars at the Congregational Church..... Many thanks for the date of that reconciliation. It suggests to me that the mother's name was not recorded by the clergy.... ummm.... And that is unusual, :-X particularly for that 1880s decade. Was that the Congregational church at Waterloo?
I will pull thinking cap down a tad more ;D
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM,
Sorry to take so long getting back to you but life gets in the way of my research some days ;D ;D
I think it was the Congregational Church at Waterloo but the cert said Surry Hills. My knowledge of Sydney inner city geography is not all that good, does Surry Hills still exist or would it now be called Waterloo?
Andcarred
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;D depending on the fashion of the day, sometimes parts of that neck of the woods was known as Surry Hills, and other times as Waterloo. On my own family tree, I have Congregational marriages in the 1870s showing Waterloo. Those certs have some elusive blanks on them (parents names/occupations missing, the ages of the bride and groom etc and the consenting parents details etc). This 'oversight' is caused by NSW BDM having not ever completed their task of reconciling their summary records with the parish records. I found the full details on the local parish registers many years ago.
Both Surry Hills and Waterloo still exist ;D .... Sometimes the Real Estate sellers continue to be creative in their ways of referring to those two inner Sydney suburbs.
Cheers, JM
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From Sands Alpha Directory 1885
Congregational Church, Rev E Adams, 104 Botany Road, Waterloo
And,
Rev Edward ADAMS, (Congr) 160 Pitt St Redfern (most likely his private residence).
I may have missed it, did you mention the clergyman's name .... I can look for him in that 1885 directory ;D
Cheers, JM
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Hi all
I have just joined this forum and am really interested in your conversations. I too am researching Raphael & Kate. I have purchased copies of the Marriage certificates both in Sydney in 1883 and in Melbourne in 1885. The first marriage was by a Congregational Minister and the 2nd a Jewish Service. I have established Raphael's father as being George Simmons but can't find any trace of his birth or details in London either. I have also thought the place to start is Whitechapel, but would be interested in any other findings. ::)
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Marriage took place at the residence of Rev G Preston, Riley Street, Sydney
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Hi MerrylC
Welcome to RChat, it is the bestest place for family history help.
I will see what I can find re Rev Preston
Cheers, JM
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Ummm.... Rev Preston is elusive too....
Anyway, Riley Street starts out at the Domain (Wooloomooloo side) and finishes up at Cleveland St, right on the 'border' of Surry Hills and Waterloo. I have carefully read all the householders/businesses etc on the 1892 Sands Suburban list for Riley St, and did not find any likely Manse or Congregational Church. I will re-check later (hopefully with fresh eyes).
Cheers, JM
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I may have found Rev Preston (thanks to a member of our household)
Sands 1885 Alpha Directory Rev Geo PRESTON, 244 Devonshire St
Devonshire St is another main thoroughfare, running same directions as Cleveland and Foveaux. Before the Central Railway station was built, Devonshire St ran from the Cemetery (west) to Bourke St (east). There is a tunnel under the railway platforms at Central, it is known as the Devonshire Street tunnel. 244 Devonshire St in 1885 would have included the numbers from the Cemetery end. I think, (from memory) that the numbers started at the Bourke St end back in those days. At least that's how I have understood the Cleveland St numbers to run.
I can find a Congregational church listed in the 1892 Sands ... Rev Fred BINNS, 331 Cleveland St. This was between George St and Bullanaming St, (and at that time the suburb was called Redfern :-X )
Cheers, JM
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Thanks for the welcome and I hope we can trace this a bit further. The MC had Woolloomooloo as the usual residence of both the bride and groom so don't know whether this is any indication of where the Congregational Manse was situated. I am wondering what everyone's interest is here as Kate & Raphael were my great grandparents and I guess we may be related in some way. I'd love to know, as we have so very few relations on this side of the family.
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Well, I am not related, just a very happy RChatter willing to help as I have been helped in the past, not just at RChat but back in the dark ages when there was no Internet and I was very much a beginner at understanding the ways to research my heritage.
Cheers, JM
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Thanks JM. How great of you to do this - I am a raw beginner but am loving all the intrigue and challenge. I think we need all the help we can get.
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I have just gone back and read all the pages which I didn't do before. I can clear up a couple of things. Firstly there are definitely 2 Raphael's and I haven't discovered whether they are related or not, but think they may be.
Also Sue - Stella Simmons married Albert Henry Noble Hall on 21/4/1917 in Carlton. He was born in 1893 and died in 1929. I do know a little about this side of the family so may be able to help further if you require this.
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Some leisurely searches show that KATE SIMMON's parents both died in 1902 in NSW. They were married in England. Her mother MARIA's maiden name was HYAMS and it seems to have morphed to WEYMAN on KATE's death reg.
From then on there are very frequent In Memoria in the Sydney papers for the parents and, right from the outset of these, KATE is included in the names of those "inserting"
She is listed as MRS K SIMMONS showing that she has indeed distanced herself from the name R APHAEL
Although KATE seems to have been born in 1866, I cannot see a birth for her in either England or NSW where many of her siblings were born.
Not any help in finding RAPHAEL, but perhaps of interest ;D
Sue
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A lot of people think at first those answering their queries are in some way related to, or have a personal interest in, the families and individuals being discussed.
This is not usually the case.
The forum is merely a place where those with resources and skills assist people in tracing their ancestors.
The information I have given is the result of research I did over the last few days and I do not know or have connection to your people.
Occasionally others who are related will enter a thread and will turn out to be doing the same research as you. That is a great bonus, ;D ;D but it does not happen very often.
You and ANDCARRED have been lucky to spot each other and will no doubt be of great assistance to each other.
Sue
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Some leisurely searches show that KATE SIMMON's parents both died in 1902 in NSW. They were married in England. Her mother MARIA's maiden name was HYAMS and it seems to have morphed to WEYMAN on KATE's death reg.
Although KATE seems to have been born in 1866, I cannot see a birth for her in either England or NSW where many of her siblings were born.
Here's Kate's Birth in VIC ;D (sorry thought they would have already had it :-\)
ISRIAL Katy b. 1866 MELB #9858
Father: Samuel
Mother: Maria HYAMS
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Thanks so much Sue & Merlin. I did have the Reg # for Kate's birth but have not found an exact date. I think she was born in Fitzroy North in Melbourne. Raphael is still a real mystery isn't he as his death details are nowhere to be seen, however they have to be somewhere so we will keep digging
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Thanks so much Sue & Merlin. I did have the Reg # for Kate's birth but have not found an exact date. I think she was born in Fitzroy North in Melbourne.
You will need to purchase & download her birth certificate to get the actual birthdate & place.
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So,
The ISRAEL's entered Australia through Victoria in September 1864 per Golden South
ISRAEL MARIA Aged 20 B 235 001
ISRAEL SAML Aged 23 do
ISRAEL ZEDAK Aged I do
ISRAEL FANNY Aged 2 do
Sue
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Hi All,
Thanks for the obituary for Rafael Simmons of the Mick Simmons family but this is not the connection I am seeking although there could well turn out to be a connection somewhere.
I need an opinion here. I have found a Rafael Simmons Belasco born in London in 1862. This is the correct year and place for the one I am looking for and who is nowhere to be found. Can anyone tell me if there is any reason why a Jewish family would drop their surname and use the middle name as a surname when they emigrated. Do you think it worthwhile getting a copy of this certificate and comparing birth dates as thanks to Gerry we do have an exact birth date.
Also just to complicate matters this Rafael Simmons Belasco has a cousin of the same name born in London 3 years later who also married in Sydney Australia to a woman called Kate who is also a first cousin to them both. They don't make it easy do they ::) ::) ::)
The younger Rafael died in London in 1911 but still no sign of what happened to our man.
Andcarred
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So, I take it you have combed the 1871 census for the longer and the shortened version of the name.
Sue
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Hi
Is your Raphael Simmons also using his middle name as his surname?
Muss
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Outward passenger lists at PROV have the following :-\
SIMMONS R MR age 46 PENINSULAR JUN 1898 SYDNEY 001
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Hi Sue, Muss and Merlin,
1871 census the family is using the full name ie Belasco. He has 4 brothers who all have the name Simmons as their middle name on this census. They all seem to have disappeared by 1881. When he departs from England for Oz he is using the surname Simmons (assuming it is the same man) and uses this name for the rest of his life.
Thanks for the 1898 sailing to Sydney. He lived in Melbourne but had relatives in Sydney so could have been visiting. Also there are at least four Rafael Simmons. Sometimes he called himself Ralph.
Andcarred
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I noted it because you said he went MIA after 1897 ;)
I did quite a large amount of work for a lady a few years ago on the well known Sydney/Melb/Tas family.
I'll see if I can find her contact details archived away here somewhere & ask if she knows anything of this one you are looking for.
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Hi Merlin,
Sorry to sound a bit abrupt in the last post but my husband was sitting in the car with the motor running waiting for me so I was a bit stressed and rushed when I posted the reply ;D ;D ;D
We are not sure when he went MIA, only that his last child was born in Melbourne in 1897 and his wife Kate seems to have been on her own by 1903 electoral roll. It could well be this is when he did a runner (or maybe died??) but of course we can't prove it yet but that trip could very well turn out to be an important clue. Lots more detective work required on this one.
Thanks again for your help and interest,
Andcarred
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Hi again everyone. I have been away and unable to do anymore research. I have a friend who has been helping me though and it does appear that the Belasco theory is becoming more apparent. I am wondering whether anyone else has had any further revelations they could help me with as I would really appreciate any help I can get. Sorry I have been out of the picture for a while but I am excited to get back.
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Hi again. I am wondering whether anyone can help me any further as I have just received the birth certificate back from England.
Raphael's full name is Raphael Simmons Belasco and his parents Joseph Simmons Belasco and Sarah Belasco previously Genese formerly Tolano. He was born on 28/3/1862.
Any help with this one would be greatly appreciated.
I am wondering whether you were able to glean any info from the lady in Tas. Merlin?
Thanks again for your help.
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Raphael BELASCO ( youngest son of Joseph) married Katherine TOLANO in Sydney in 1893.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/3563843?searchTerm=belasco&searchLimits=l-decade=189
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/63104913?searchTerm=belasco&searchLimits=l-decade=189
Reading back I see you think that this is his cousin, but this one is the son of Joseph. ???
Debra :)
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Thanks Debra. This is my Raphael's cousin. Two Joseph Belasco's married Tolano sisters Rachel and Sarah. My Raphael is the son of Joseph & Sarah who both died in 1873 and never came to Australia. Both Josephs and their wives had a Joseph and Raphael each which does make it very confusing. I am still seeking my Raphael's movements after 1889 where he just seems to have disappeared.
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My paternal grandmother was Rachel Simmons Belasco, one of the sisters of Raphael. She was born in the St. George in the East district of London at 3 Morgan Street in 1871. Her (and Raphael's) parents, Joseph Simmons Belasco and his wiife, who was widow Sarah Genese née Tolano when he married her in 1860, both died within a short time of each other in 1873. Sarah was Joseph's second wife, just as he was her second husband. At one time there was a mixture of full siblings, half siblings and step siblings all living, if not all in the same house, at least near each other. My father told me that his mother had been told (for she was barely three when orphaned and sent to an orphanage) that there was a family saying: "Your children and my children are fighting out children."
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Hi there
Thank you so much for your reply and it was very exciting to hear from you. I have some questions from your email that I hope you can help me with, and also some confusion to be cleared. Can you tell me who Joseph's first wife was as I don't have any record of her. I think I have most of the children of Sarah with Emanuel Genese and then thought the rest of the children were Joseph & Sarah's. Maybe not!! Do you also know how Joseph & Sarah died, within 3 months of each other. Was your Rachel married to Jules Liboz and presumably your father was Maurice? Did he have a brother Herbert and when did he die? Sorry for all the questions but the answers would help me fill in some gaps. It appears there were 2 Joseph Simmons Belasco's. One married to our Sarah and the other to her ?sister Rachel. Is this correct? I look forward to hearing from you again.
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Hallo, I can answer some of your questions though not always with exact names and date.
1) Some records claim that Joseph Simmons Belasco's first wife was Esther Simmons who he married in about 1842. Some people claim that is how Simmons got into his and his descendants' name - he adopted his wife's maiden name as part of his. All the Josephs and the intermarriage between Belascos and Simmonses or Simmondses adds to the confusion! The weird thing is that an Esther Belasco died in 1878 and some people claim that this was Joseph's first wife. So did they divorce, rather than she die, before he married Widow Genese née Tolano? If I can turn up anything more about Joseph's first wife, I'll let you know.
2) I once had Joseph and Sarah's death certificates, but sent them to a distant, now dead, relative in the US. I'm fairly sure they died of tuberculosis. My grandmother, Rachel, told my father, Maurice, that she had been told (!) that after one of them died, the other "died of a broken heart".
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Thank you so much for your very quick reply. I know it is very confusing with all the Simmons, Belasco's etc. so no wonder they are hard to trace. I will keep pursuing Joseph's first wife and I would love to keep in touch to see what else we can turn up between us. Are you in the UK or Australia? We don't have relatives left on the Simmons side of the family that I know of, so it is so nice to have contact with a relative, even very distant. Thanks again for the info and I think I will still send for Joseph & Sarah's death certificates as I had planned.
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3) My paternal grandma, Rachel Simmons Belasco was never married to Jules Eugene Aimé Liboz. Both my father, Maurice Robert Liboz Simmonds, and his full brother, Herbert Liboz, were illegitimate. Grandma styled herself Madame Liboz! Herbert was married twice. One of his sons by his second marriage, Denys Liboz, died in the US a year or two ago. Herbert died in France in about 1950 or 51 of tuberculoses contracted when he was in a German labour camp in France during WW2. There is a long story to tell about him and his first and second wives! I know that Herbert was born in London in about 1900, but have never been able to find out exactly where.
Grandpa Liboz' other "wife" was Louise Michaux by whom he had Maurice and Herbert's half-siblings, Blanche Michaux and Richard Michaux. Grandpa kept two households going in London without one knowing about the other. Again, a long and intriguing tale to tell about that set up.
4) Yes again. I believe two Belasco brothers (or maybe cousins) married two Tolano sisters, Rachel and Sarah.
I have never tried to construct a family tree, but several distant relatives in the US and Canad have tried. I find it all far too confusing and have not been very assiduous in keeping track of records. What I do find fascinating is the Belasco's modes of life in the 18th and 19th centuries - everything from rabbis and respectable, even intellectual people, to brothel keepers and fishmongers.
Good wishes, and do keep in touch with more questions - even if I cannot answer them in detail.
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Hi again,
I was born in London, England, but have now lived in France for 6 years - where I plan to stay for the rest of my life. May I ask where you fit into the Belasco or Simmons (or both!) tree? And in which country do you live?
One of the problems in tracing ancestors is the lies told on certificates. Because of illegitimacy, my father's, his brother's, and his half-siblings birth certificates do not tell the truth. Consequently, there is an untruth on my parents' marriage certificate. Miss Rachel Simmons Belasco, masquerading as Madame Liboz, put herself down on the 1911 UK census as Ray Simmond (sic)-Legrand, her son Maurice as Robert (his middle name) and her son Herbert just as Bertie.
Simmons/Simmonds/ and all its variations is a terrible name to trace. I recall that at least one of the Belascos who married a Simmons had at least one child who married a Simmonds!
No doubt you have come across the Emanuel Simmons born 1793 who married a Rachel Belasco, and they kept a whorehouse. But, as far as I can remember, Rachel had already been married to Emanuel's brother and had children by both of them in and out of wedlock. If you know this story, you will know about the deal with the rabbi over lemons.
Good wishes.
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You are absolutely wonderful and letting me know plenty about the family. My grandmother was a Simmons (daughter of Raphael) and I can't find any trace of his death. As my dad died when he was only 55, I have no idea of any family history. My mother (who is still with us and almost 98 yrs of age) comes from a large family and I'm afraid we were more involved with them growing up. Dad's father died at age 34 and his brother in his early 20's so there was only Dad & his mother. Raphael & Kate (Israel) had 3 sons that survived and my grandmother. There were no other cousins in the family, so I'm afraid we are rather depleted in that respect. Raphael came to Australia in 1881, married Kate in Sydney 1883 (Congregational Church) & again in Melbourne 1885 (Jewish Synagogue), where they lived. As far as I know none of the boys had any children, although I do believe one of them adopted 2 children. There is quite a bit of evidence about another Raphael Simmons who is the son of Joseph & Rachel (nee Tolano, and I think Sarah's sister) Simmons Belasco, who lived in Sydney. Very confusing!!
I was born in Victoria and moved with my husband to Queensland just 3 years ago, where we are semi-retired. I don't know anything about the whorehouse, or the Rabbi and lemons so would love to hear more. Thanks again for your prompt response and filling in some details for me. :)
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Sorry I missed the email about your father's family. I did find the Probate from Jules Liboz and noticed that it gave him at 2 addresses. 10 Park Hill Road, Croydon Surrey and 24-28 St Mary Ave, London. The explanation of course was him living at both addresses. Interesting though that his effects of 1794 pounds had only the solicitor named. In both the 1891 & 1911 Census he was a boarder and single. The plot thickens!! I did wonder about Rachel also as she was listed as a spinster in her Probate notice, but you have solved that mystery. They certainly did lead very colorful lives didn't they?
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I have never heard of 10 Park Hill Croydon. At the time of his death he was living with Rachel and his children (though Blanche, Richard and Herbert were mainly in France by this time) either at La Garenne, 6 Chepstow Rise Croydon, or at the Deepdene Hotel, Dorking. I can't remember what my father told me. What I do remember was that my father was sleeping in the same bed when Jules died. Apparently, Jules liked to drink champagne and eat rich food late in the evening, which often made him vomit during the night. When he was like that, Rachel would refuse to sleep with him, and put my father, Maurice, in bed with him, so that his little son could hold the chamber pot for him to be sick in! That is, when little Maurice was home on holiday and not away at boarding school. La Garenne was a huge house (8 bedrooms, tennis court, etc.), acquired during Jules's prosperous days. At one time, when business was bad, he let it and they moved into a hotel at Dorking which was apparently cheaper than keeping a big house with servants going. Jules's first wife, Louise Michaux died in about 1914 or maybe 1916. His household with her, where he is described as a boarder, was in the Paddington area of London. St. Mary Axe was the address of his firm, John Gibson and Co. By the early 1930s his estate turned out to be worth about £4,000. I still have the final accounts for it. In 1904, when Herbert was about 4 and my father hadn't yet been born, Jules installed Rachel at 6 Clitheroe Road, London SW9, and made her proprietrix of it. My father was born at that address, and my parents lived at that address with Rachel when there were first married. When Louise Michaux died suddenly, Jules calmly turned up wherever Rachel, Maurice and Herbert were living at the time (Clitheroe Road, I think), and confessed her that he had two children by another woman, that she had died, and would she bring them up as her own! Apparently, there was a terribly row about this, but she took them under her wing - though by this time they were nearly grown up, Blanche having been born about 1898 and Richard the same year as Herbert. But the two sets of children were not told that they were half siblings. They were told fibs about an aunt who had died. My father did not know that Blanche and Richard were his half sister and brother until he was well into his teens. Jules could get away with this because my father was sent away to boarding school aged about 7, Jules was always "away on business" from one household or the other, children in those days were not expected to have questions answered, and so on. But my father, and Herbert and Blanche were very close. Richard tended to drift off and do his own thing. At one time, my father told me, although they still had the houses in Croydon and London SW9, they moved to a flat near Hampton Court for a short while.
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Belasco, Simmons, whorehouse, Jewish law: if you Google "belasco whorehouse lemons" you will find two reports under: From One End of the Earth, and Jews of Georgian England. They make fascinating reading.
Good wishes.
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1) Are in touch with an American called John Simmons of Llanelli, Wales, UK?
2) Do you know about the Rev. Vivian George Simmons, a noted London rabbi, who was the son of a rabbi, and who married the daughter of a rabbi? The above-mentioned John Simmons told me about him and emailed me filed of him speaking on tape.
3) I have come across a copy of the birth certificate of one of the brothers of Rachel Simmons Belasco: 13th December 1860. 2 Mary Anne Place, sub-district of Holywell, District of Shoreditch. Emanuel Simmons. Boy. Father Joseph Simmons Belasco. Mother Sarah Simmons Belasco formerly Tolano. Occupation of father General Dealer. Registration date 24th January 1861 by the mother. I am in touch with Emanuel's 82-year-old grandson in Canada: Barrington David Belasco Lamb. Emanuel and his wife, née Flora Lyons, spent much of their life in Canada, though Emanuel died a widower in Brighton, UK. Emanuel was the eldest of the Simmons Belasco /Genese-Tolano marriage. My grandmother the youngest.
From the 1871 UK census, where the name Belasco is misspelled as Belasew, Joseph S. Belasco and his wife Sarah are living at the address my grandmother was born at later that year with 10 children. The first 5 - Rebecca G, Joseph S, Catherine G, Rachel, and Esther I believe to be the product of Sarah's first marriage. The last 5 - Edward (I think this should be Emanuel), Raphael, Isaac, Abram and George, of their marriage. George is Guerschon, later rabbi at Ramsgate.
I'll email you if I find more info. Regards.
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Thanks for the references to the Belasco Whorehouse lemons which have certainly given me more of an insight to the family goings-on, and also filled a few more gaps to the family tree. Unfortunately I am not familiar with the details of the Jewish faith, so will need to check on some of the descriptions. You have no idea how thrilled I am to at last be able to learn more about the Simmons family, and I must thank you again for helping me with this.
Unfortunately I am not in touch with John Simmons from Wales, nor do I know about Vivian George Simmons. Where does he fit in the family? This is not Guershon (George) who was the brother of our family, is it? I would love to be able to contact both John & Barrington if that was possible.
I do have some of the details of Emanuel and his wife Flora, and knew they went to Canada, and that Emanuel died in Brighton UK. Do you know whether Esther born 1857 was a Genese or maybe from Joseph's first marriage. Given her mother was presumably Esther it may make sense. The previous children had the Genese name, but not Esther. I did also find the records of the 1871 'Belasew' Census. I wonder if you know of an Alfred born 1866. He doesn't seem to be listed anywhere, however I found a death notice 29 Jan.1903 in Australia (and have a transcript of the Death Certificate) for him, giving his parents as Joseph Simmons & Sarah Tolano? He doesn't appear anywhere else. Thanks again for all the info you have provided me. My name is Merryl by the way.
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Rabbi Vivian George Simmons is a quite different rabbi from George Simmons Belasco, though it could be that they were distantly related by a marriage or two a few generations back. Rev V G Simmons was born in 1886. He was the son of Rabbi Lawrence Simmons and his wife Anna Herzfeld. George had a brother Claude Simmons, born 1888, who became an Anglican minister at Bath. Anna Herzfeld was the daughter of Rabbi Levi Herzfeld of Braunshweig (?Brunswick), Germany. Lawrence Simmons died in 1900, and far from being a good Jewish mother, his widow Anna swanned off to San Remo, Italy, where she stayed until she died in 1912. She left her two sons in the care of the De Sola family in Maida Vale, London. (All this info came to me from John Simmons.)
Although I have no idea how they might have been related, my Simmons Belasco lot certainly knew Rabbi Vivian George Simmons. He officiated at the marriage of James Belasco, one of the sons of Rabbi George Simmons Belasco, to Dora Lichtenstein at the West London Synagogue on 17th January 1932. My father, Maurice, and my grandmother, Rachel Simmons Belasco, attended the wedding. One of the witnesses was Philip Seth Belasco, one of James's brother. I used to know a Dr. David Belasco of Swaffham, Norfolk, UK, who was Philip Seth's only son, but sadly he died quite young. He was a GP. When they married, James Belasco was a meteorologist at the British Air Ministry in London, a bachelor aged 37. Dora was a spinster aged 45 whose mother Hannah Hyams came from a Jewish family in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, and whose father, Adolph Lichtenstein came from Austria-Hungary. Dora's parents lived in several different UK and Canadian cities, but Dora was a Mancunian. My parents knew James and Dora. They liked James but used to say that Dora was a horrid woman, and I can remember as a child people saying things like: "Whatever possessed James to Mary that ghastly female dog from Manchester?"!
More anon.
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Hi Merryl,
I am laughing because I see that in my last post this system has changed a certain word into "pregnant dog".
I would guess that, but am not certain, Esther born 1857, was from Joseph's first marriage which is said to be to Esther Simmons.
I won't put you in touch with Barrington (Barry for short) because he is 82 and in failing health. The last time I emailed him, he replied about five weeks later saying that his mind and body were failing and saying that it had taken him weeks to catch up with emails. I met him and his wife once when they visited London. In recent years, it is his wife alone who writes and sends their annual Christmas newsletter. My father Maurice and Grandmother Rachel attended his parents' wedding in Buckinghamshire in 1923: Barry's parents were Inez Belasco (Jewish of course) and daughter of Emanuel Simmons Belasco, and Harry Lamb (Christian). I have photos of the wedding in an old album, also an illustrated story book inscribed by Inez to my father in 1919!
Hmm. I'm scratching my head about Alfred born 1866. Does his death certificate say his father was Joseph Simmons Belasco, or just Joseph Simmons? As you must have discovered, one of the problems is that first names and surnames were often changed by the individuals concerned, or their relatives, or mis-transcribed from handwritten records. Also, among Jewish people sometimes an original biblical of Hebrew name was entered in some records, and sometimes an anglicised version: e.g. Moss for Moses; Henry for Haim; Rebecca or Becky for Ribkah or Rebkah; and so on. Maybe some Simmons Belascos dropped Belasco when they emigrated and became just plain Simmons. I don't know.
As I think I said before Emanual Simmons Belasco has appeared as Edward, and my father's first cousin James Esmond has appeared as Edward. It was the same in my mother's (Italian) family. Her sister appears in records variously as Ida, Eda, and Aida! And their mother as Adele or Adelina Romi or Romani. You can't win!
Good wishes.
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Merryl, I have two sound files in "my documents" of Rev. Vivian George Simmonds speaking: (1) a sermon he gave to mark his 80th birthday; (2) readings from the Old Testament in Hebrew and English; plus a short recording of a tribute to him by an anonymous speaker. He was a wonderful orator, and could teach many preachers, of whatever faith, a thing or two. These were made from reel-to-reel tape recordings and emailed to me by John Simmons.
Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a facility by which to attach them to one of these messages to you on RootsChat. Do you know a means of attaching documents? He is certainly worth listening to even if one is not Jewish, or even at all religious.
Regards, Clive
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Hi Clive. It is so nice to be able to put a name to your texts, so thank you for that. I must admit I did wonder about the 'pregnant dog' comment but guessed it was just an interpretation of the real word. It looks like my research needs to go a little further, but one step at a time. You were correct in thinking the Belasco name was dropped as we had no idea about that until I started doing Genealogy. We always thought our ancestors were Simmons. By the way a friend started this research for me and she came across a Gail Grossman in USA. She is obviously a direct relative of yours as she said she was descended from your Grandmother Rachel. If you have lost contact I do have her email address. In my research I also found an article on Selina Dolaro the prima donna who it is said was married to Isaac Dolaro Belasco (Esther's son?) I found this article very interesting as she was obviously a very determined and strong minded woman. (I just googled Selina Dolaro) It is OK that Barry would not be up to any questioning as you have already helped me enormously. It is very confusing with the swapping, dropping and changing of names, but I guess that is all part of the challenge. (I did notice that Esther above was also married to Joseph Belasco) What a pity they didn't use their imagination when it came to naming their children! As you mentioned, Alfred's father was just Joseph Simmons, but mother's maiden name was Sarah Tolano!!! Just a coincidence?? I would love to hear the sermons from Rev Vivian but I am not sure how that can be done in Cyberspace, so maybe we'll just have to come and visit you sometime, to hear them. We were brought up in the Methodist/Uniting church and my father's husband was also a Minister. My Mum is disgusted though that we rarely attend these days. Knowing very little about the Jewish faith, has had me searching for more info and after reading the articles you told me about, I went investigating, and realise there are probably not many differences apart from the naming of the Jewish celebrations and ceremonies. I will continue to research. Thanks again Clive and if I can help in any way, please ask, although I think I am way behind the eightball with the Simmons family.
Regards, Merryl
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Hi Merryl,
1) I have never heard of Gail Grossman and am wondering how she could be descended from my grandmother. Perhaps through my uncle Herbert and his two sons, one of whom emigrated from France to the USA, with whom I was in touch, but who is now dead. Yes, I'd love to have her email address if she is prepared to let me have it.
2) I know about Selina Dolaro. She and Issac Belasco became divorced, I believe.
3) It is (or at least used to be among some sects of Jews) the custom to give the firstborn son the same forename as his paternal grandfather. That is one reason why names keep being repeated. Do you look at the JewishGen website? If so you will see that in some lists and trees the "son of" or "daughter of" name is given after the forename or in brackets. So if your father's name was Henry it would say Merryl (Henry) and then your surname. In some Jewish records it would say Merryl de Henry and then the surname.
4) The Belascos were certainly Sephardic. I think a lot of the Simmonses were, but not all. I think some may have had Ashkenazi origins. But Simmons and Simmonds are very also very common names among Christians in English speaking countries.
5) Probably the most famous of the Belasco tribe were: the David Belasco the American theatrical impresario; his uncle the British actor and theatre manager David 'James' Belasco whose stage name was David James and who was married twice, had no children by either marriage, but had already had an illegitimate son by a lady called Mary Anne O'Hara. David 'James' Belasco left £41,000 when he died in 1893, a huge sum for those days. There was a public scandal because he left nothing to his illegitimate son, and almost everything to his synagogue and Jewish charities. That son was an almost as famous British actor, David O'Hara Belasco, stage name David S. James. If you don't know about these people, do Google them. Then there are the pugilist - bare knuckle fighters - Belasco brothers. Again, a lot about them on Google. I don't think any of these Belascos were descended from Simmonses, though they are connected to the Simmons Belasco lot by marriage and Belasco antecedents.
6) The only way you could hear the voice of Rabbi Vivian George Simmons of the West London and other British synagogues (son of Rabbi Lawrence Simmons, of the Park Place Synagogue, Manchester) is if I had your email address, then I could email you the files, just as John Simmons did to me. If you do want me to have your email address, do of course send it in a private message, not on this open forum. Then you'll have mine when I email you the files.
Clive
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Hi again Merryl!
Encouraged by your enthusiasm, in an idle moment I Googled combinations of Simmons and Belasco and came up with something called the Knowles Collection / Church of JC of LDS. Now, I know that the Mormon Church is renowned for genealogy, but what it showed me is clearly wrong.
It gave me an Alfred Simmons who died in NSW in 1903. That may well be true. BUT he was certainly NOT a brother of George Simmonds (sic) Belasco, and even if he was, the father of George Simmons Belasco was NOT Emanuel Belasco, he was Joseph Simmons Belasco. The mother of George certainly was Sarah Tolano, as the site states (though it omits to say she was a Widow Genese née Tolano). But I'm fairly sure that both Alfred Simmons and Emanuel Belasco do not belong as listed. Certainly an Emanuel Simmons Belasco was a full BROTHER of both George Simmons Belasco, and my grandmother Rachel Simmons Belasco. He was the guy who you and I know both know went to Canada and died in Brighton and was the grandfather of Barrington David Belasco Lamb in Canada. I wonder how many people this has misled?
Regards, Clive
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Hi again Clive
I just love turning on the computer and finding more messages from you. I spoke to my Mum yesterday and very excitedly told her some of your news. Of course she is interested in reading some of Dad's ancestry notes. It was so funny that you happened to mention about my father being Henry as Dad was Norman Henry! - quite a coincidence. I do understand about the naming of children after their fathers/grandfathers but when researching genealogy it does become a little confusing. I had read about David Belasco (x2) as they appear to have been quite renowned as were the pugilists, however I assumed they were not really related.
Thanks also for the reference to the Church JCLDS entry which I am aware is not correct. It is a bit of a mystery about Alfred and his parents but I am not too concerned (just curious), and we are always told to be wary of what is on these sites, until you have verification. We do have a Mormon church quite close to where we live and I have been promising myself a visit, however haven't quite made it yet. .Thanks again for your follow-up and interest.
Merryl
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Sorry to bother you again. I meant to mention that my Dad's Uncle - George Mark Simmons who was single and an adagio dance who moved back to London and travelled various continents in his career. I have been able to trace his various movements through Shipping lines, however I can't find a death for him anywhere. He was born 15/3/1897. The last details I have are-
23.10.1956 UK Incoming passenger on the 'Empress of Britain' (Canadian Pacific Lines) from
Montreal to Liverpool. aged 59 yrs
Official Number 3141/01 Source Citation Class BT26, Piece 1367 Item 41
(UK Incoming Passenger Lists 1878-1960)
Address in UK 285 Camden Road, London - Theatrical Artist
Country of last permanent residence-England & Intended future perm. residence
My brother recalls that he was in Australia after my grandmother died in 1963 however that is all we know. I can't find him in the BDM in England and wonder whether you would have any other suggestions on where we could look.
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I like being bothered when it comes to family research! It seems that George Simmons didn't stay in the UK long after the trip you mention. George Simmons, DOB 15/03/1897, single, profession Artiste, aged 60, is recorded as having sailed from the UK to New York on 8th February 1957. Although his middle name Mark is not mentioned, I think the George, DOB, and description as Artiste mean that it must be. But of course he could have returned to the UK after that, and by then it was possible to fly from one country to another.
I also wonder if he is the George Mark Simmons recorded as having sailed from London to Brisbane aged 34, but his DOB is given vaguely as 1898, and his profession as Salesman /Manager.
The only other line of research I can think of would be Australian theatrical magazines of the period. Lateral thinking: dancing, theatre, Australia, adagio dancing ........
Clive
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Thanks again Clive, and especially for your lateral thinking. Two heads are obviously better than one. I think you are correct with your assumptions about George and his trip to New York. As I said he did move around a lot,so it is quite a challenge to trace his movements. I think he was also listed as a Salesman in the early days. I did also think about the fact that flights were probably the preferred mode of transport in the 60's. I will keep looking,
Merryl
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If I may give a small amount of input here. The Knowles Collection is a constantly growing database that at times encounters the same problems as other databases, records incorrectly linked. In the case of your family I will look into Alfred being included and hopefully correct that. However, the collection does show Joseph Simmonds Belasco as the father of George Simmonds Belasco. Also, it does also show that Sarah Tolano was previously married to a Genese. Emanuel is shown as the father of Joseph Simmonds Belasco.
The collection is 6 databases of records of the Jewish people. As of today it contains almost 800,000 people. I hope this helps.
Todd
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Thank you Todd. It is always great to get more info and to know there are other sources out there to help. We are definately not sure about Alfred. He does seem to be a mystery but could belong to another family. The George we were referring to is my Great Uncle and the son of Raphael and Kate Simmons in Australia. He was born 15 March 1897 and did return to England in his profession as a dancer but I have been unable to find any death details about him. We think he passed away soon after 1963 but don't know for sure. Thanks again for your input.
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Hi all
About Alfred Simmons
I am helping my 91 year old mum with her family history.
Her grandfather was Alfred Simmons who died in 1903 in Sydney.
He was also known as Sam Smith - a general dealer.
His marriage certificate says -
Alfred was born @ 1864/65/66 in London to Joseph Simmons and Sarah Tolano.
He emigrated to Victoria @ 1883, at the age of 18 years, where he later married Elizabeth Cahill on 28th March 1888 at Moon/Moor Street (Cnr George & Moor St) Fitzroy. He was a 23 year old bachelor residing at Exhibition Street Melbourne and his profession was a cutter. His parents were recorded as Joseph Simmons, a gentleman and Sarah Simmons. (Tolano)
Infomation on his death certificate -
At the time of his death he had been in the Australian colonies a total of 20 years – 8 years in NSW and 12 years in Victoria. His living children were Victoria S 14 years, Stella 10, Alfred 8, Walter 3 and Sydney 1, with 1 male deceased. On his death certificate he is called Samuel.
He died of acute General Tuberculosis. His medical attendant was C B Blackburn.
His funeral left the mortuary section for Rookwood Cemetery at 9.30am.
He was buried on 30th January 1903 in the Hebrew Cemetery at Rookwood by the undertaker, Lewis Samuels. The Hebrew Minster who performed the service was Rev A D Wolinski. The witnesses were James Javes and Percy Samuels.
At Rookwood Cemetery there is no headstone for him but he is buried in Section E, the old ground, at plot no. 772.
I see in many family trees on Ancestry.com there is an Abramo/Abraham - son of Joseph Simmons (Belasco) and Sarah Tolano (Genese)
I am wondering if Abramo is my Alfred?
I am wondering if my Joseph Simmons is Joseph Simmons Belasco; and Sarah Tolano is the one in the trees.
People associated with the Jewish synagogue in Sydney say they are my line.
Regards
Maree