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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Durham => England => Durham Lookup Requests => Topic started by: okrobie on Wednesday 28 December 11 04:26 GMT (UK)
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Hello all, I have a bit of a dilemma. I have traced the parents of Mary Simpson and found two Mary Simpson's born in the same parish and within a few weeks of one another.
Baptisms, Auckland District
Record Number: 782262.0
Location: Escomb
Church: St. John
Denomination: Anglican
15 Feb 1807 Mary Simpson, of Belts Gill, Etherley Lane, born 3 Feb, 1st illegitimate daughter of Margaret Simpson (single woman)
Baptisms, Auckland District
Record Number: 782264.0
Location: Escomb
Church: St. John
Denomination: Anglican
17 May 1807 Mary Simpson, of Etherley Lane, born 1 May, 1st daughter of Richard Simpson (pitman, native of St.Andrew Aukland) by his wife Elizabeth Hope (native of Escomb)
How do I figure out which is the one I am looking for?
The real one was married to Ralph Young in 14 May 1831 St. Helen-Auckland, Durham, England
Thanks for any suggestions :)
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few suggestions
- maybe work forward to the 1841 census and find them there - they will be about 34 give or take, given the way the enumerators rounded ages in that census.
- see what family they have with them, what occupation the husband is following?
what names are repeating down the family? .
maybe follow both and see who they marry and what surnames appear later in the family.
Did they leave the country to go to US ?- (I notice you are in the US.) If so , when - can you trace them that way.?
Look for deaths - see if both of them lived or only one - might clear the path a little.
You may have to follow both Marys for a while to see which turns out to be yours.
Hope this might help a bit. I'm not the most experienced searcher, so . . . . ;)
Wiggy :)
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Just had another thought
- if you have the marriage certificate, the witness names might be other family members and may throw some light on the subject! When I was in a similar position it was the names of witnesses at the marriage which really sorted the person out!
Wiggy :)
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Thanks Wiggy, your suggestion raises another dilemma. I have now noticed that there are two Mary Simpson's that married a Ralph Young at the same parish and within a month of each other. This further complicates the search. :D
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I wonder could they are the same person registered separately - once for the church and once for Bishops records - or something like that?
Either that or it is a case of too many people all calling their children after grandparents and doubling up on names - which happens doesn't it.
(We have a plethora of John Gaunts in our family - and also two Johns marrying Hannah wiithin a very short time only about ten miles apart- but different surnames and parishes.)
'Fraid you need someone with access to the parish records. Hmmm.
I'll see what I can find but as I said, I'm not too brilliant so don't hold your breath.
Wiggy :)
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Where are you getting your info from Okrobie.
I have found Mary born 27 Jul 1807 to Robert and Elisabeth - no mother's maiden name given. there are several others - but none to a single Mary Simpson. These are parish records from FindMyPast. registered at Darlington.
Can't find either of the ones you mention!
The other closest is Mary born to Jacob and Ann4 April 1809 - also Darlington registration.
Looking further
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OK been searching on Family Search and found the two baptisms you are talking about , (and both extracted entries - from the parish records)
found two 1831 marriages for Mary Simpson from FindMyPast - one to Ralph Young 14th May , and to Charles Story 12 Dec 1831. Both these from parish records. Can't find your other one only a month different. :-\
Have now found Margaret mother of Mary in February. Can't see any other children in that family.
Another child for Richard and Elizabeth are Hannah - did you find that? Is that a family name maybe?
Hope some of this helps a little.
Wiggy
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1841 census HO107 Piece 307 Folio 14/7, Page 8
Ralph Young 30 Coalminer
Mary Young 30
William 9
Elizabeth 7
Barbara 5
W'm Hope 30 Coalminer
This looks like it could be your family - and suggests that Elizabeth could be the mother of Mary - and was William her, Elizabeth's, twin brother I wonder?? ;)
The ages are a bit out but as people have told me often, the enumerators for the 1841 census rounded ages up or down five years. I don't know if this is correct but I do hope so. Don't want to lead you up a wrong path.
I can't find Ralph marrying Mary twice - I did turn up two Ralph Youngs marrying in 1831 - but one of them married a Jane I think.
Wiggy :)
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a quick look at the 1851 census and I can't find them - might they have emigrated by then maybe?
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I wonder if one of the "marriages" of Mary Simpson to Ralph Young wasn't the first date that banns were announced?
Having two with the same age in the 1841 census does not mean they were twins. The ages after 15 were rounded DOWN to the closest divisor of 5 So Mary could have been 30 up to 34 years old and William Hope 30 to 34 years. The surname Hope comes from one of the Marys mother's maiden name so 20 or more years older. Maybe William is a cousin or no relation at all.
Baptisms at Auckland St. Helen:
William Young baptised 3 Apr 1832 s/o Ralph and Mary
Betsey Young (Elizabeth?) baptised 8 Jun 1834 d/o Ralph and Mary
To help out looking please identify which Auckland area parish church we are to look. Escomb, St. Andrew. St. Helen or another
Okrobie needs to answer some of the questions before we look farther or go up a wrong path.
Ikrobie--need names of all children that you know. There are some more unusual names in one of the families. These do help identify/sort families
Janis
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Wiggy, Here are the two Mary's marrying the two Ralph's from FamilySearch:
Mary Simpson
England Marriages, 1538–1973
marriage: 14 May 1831 (Saturday) St. Helen-Auckland, Durham, England
spouse: Ralph Young
Mary Simpson
England Marriages, 1538–1973
marriage: 17 Apr 1831 (Wednesday) Auckland-St. Helen, Durham, England
spouse: Ralph Young
2zpool, Thanks for your input. The one in April was not listed as banns although there could be a transcription error, but we do know that there were two Mary Simpson's in the same parish. I looked up the day of the week for each date and listed them. I don't know if it was common to marry during the week. Banns are usually announced on Sunday. I can't imagine a coal miner getting a Wednesday off.
The child that I started with was William, although I am aware of Betsey (Elizabeth?) I can't prove which pair she is from. They are all from Auckland St Helen parish. It does look "Hopeful" that they are from the family in 1941 but it begs the question as to what happened to the other Mary & Ralph. What other questions can I answer?
Thanks again to you both.
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My index of marriages for Co. Durham 1813-1837 has only 2 Ralph Young marriages, one to Jane Gibson in Auckland St. Andrew in 1830 and one to Mary Simpson in May 1831 in Auckland St Helen.
Auckalnd St. Helen: 14 May 1831 Ralph Young, of Escomb, married Mary Simpson, of this parish, by banns
Witnesses: Barbary Simpson, William Davison, clerk
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Hi Janis,
- I can only find the Ralph Young and Jane Gibson marriage as a second in Auckland St Helens too - Thanks for that clearing up - I don't have the indexes - just what I can find on the web.
Okrobie, I found those two marriages on Family search, but I went back to check I could find only a whole different set of people altogether - (this has happened before and I find it very confusing - put in the same data and out comes a different lot of info)
And yes I am aware that William Hope would be from Elizabeth's generation. ;) Maybe I didn't make that clear. ;)
It is very confusing isn't it! :)
Interesting that Barbary Simpson was a witness - extra fuel for the 1841 family, with repeat of the name Barbar(a)
What other questions can I answer?
I think most of them have been answered in the course of this search - but if you supply as much info as you can in the initial search it gives a few more pointers as to where to start looking
e.g. we now have name of parish, name of another child (William)
Did this family emigrate okrobie? Have you found them in later censuses?
Wiggy :)
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Thanks Wiggy and Janice.
They show up in 1841,1851 and 1861.
There is another "Barbary" down the line. She was Barbara Ann Young (b.27 Dec 1861) Her nickname was Barbary. She emigrated To the US in 1887 with her husband William Robson and two children.
All that is well and good, but unless I'm missing something, am I not still stuck with the original dilemma?
I still need to know who to list as the parent(s) of Ann Simpson. (See my original post) Is she the one with both parents or is she the illegitimate one?
Thanks again for your patience and skill. Jim Robson
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Seems to me that your Mary is the one born to Richard and Elizabeth - names seem to continue down the tree - or don't they - am I also missing something? - (says she from the middle of jam making!! - so it is possible!!) ;D
Wiggy
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Now I have missed something - are we not looking for Mary Simpson?? :-\ ::)
Wiggy
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We have found her, but I want to really tag her parent(s) and her date of birth or Baptism. I'm still not sure of any proof that her parent(s) are one or the other.
Elizabeth is a recurring name but not Richard or Margaret. Is that enough evidence to hang my hat on?
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Barbara also seems to be recurring from something you said.
And as you say, Margaret doesn't recur - so that would suggest she isn't Mary's mother maybe! Re recurring Richard - Hmmm - don't know about that one - unless there was some reason to leave his name out - have you found Elisabeth Hope's parents - or Richard's? Might be worth a look ;) Sometimes you have to proceed on a hunch - until you can prove the hunch wrong! I don't know but sometimes you just get a feeling that a family is correct - go with it unless something really comes up to show it is wrong - but leave room for it to be wrong
Cheers :)
Wiggy
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This looks like a likely prospect. But I can't find her in any census. Ralph is a recurring name.
Elizabeth Hope
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
birth: 18 Aug 1798
christening: 09 Sep 1798 AUCKLAND SAINT HELEN,DURHAM,ENGLAND
residence: 1798 Durham, England
parents: Ralph Hope, Jane Brownbridge
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well she would be over 40 by the time of the first census - so it is possibly she'd died by then - interesting that her father and her son in law were both Ralph! (Just interesting that's all - nothing else! - unless they all lived in the same village and there were family ties.)
No that can't be right - she'd only be 9 at the time of Mary's birth!! well possible but highly unlikely I'd say.
Elizabeth must have been born around 1890 or earlier more likely. Doesn't it get confusing trying to keep all the dates in your head! ;)
Which means Elizabeth Simpson would have been about 50 + at the 1841 census - (depending on whether Elisabeth was the first child or not.) and could well have died by then.
Wiggy
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You're right that would be too young. Yes, I have dates spinning in my head when I try to go to sleep (It's 12:12AM here now)
Here they are in the 1841 census
1841 Census, Auckland District
Family Number: 22683.4
West Auckland 1841, Etherley (HO 107/307/3/folio 53)
Richard Simpson, 50, Coal Miner, Y
Elizabeth Simpson, 60, Y
Ann Simpson, 15, Y
There is a Richard from St Andrew that was born in 1791 but the only other Elizabeth was born in 1779. That would put Richard at 16 and Elizabeth at 28 at the time of Mary's birth. Hmmm... Plausible I guess :)
OK I'm betting that Richard and Elizabeth are Ann's parents, but I wish I were sure. I'd like to put this one to bed. (and me too)
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Well that's a different lot from the family I found for the 1841 census. ;)
(I found Ralph and Mary!!)
- Elizabeth would have been 44 when Ann was born - Mary, born to Elizabeth at 28, is much more likely. Are there more children in between - have you been able to establish that??
I know the feeling of going to bed with dates swimming round your head - been there -done that!! ;D
All part of the fun!!
Wiggy :)
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Jim -
found this on Family Search which is an extracted entry (good) Is this what you found??
Elizabeth HOPE, 28 Feb 1779, daughter of William HOPE at Escomb - (and that fits where Elizabeth, who married Richard Simpson, came from. )
There seem to be two brothers in that family,
William born 14 Jul 1776,
John born 22 April 1781
- all from Escomb and all with only William named on the record . Can't see any other children around within 10 years on either side of Elizabeth.
I notice that Mary Simpson called her first child William - if we are onto the right family, and it does seem likely!
I like this one - she's born in the right parish!! ;)
Wiggy :)
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There is a birth record on FindMyPast for
Ann Simpson born 3 Apr 1825 to Richard and Elizabeth SIMPSON Auckland St Helen - looks pretty good doesn't it.
There are two other children listed to Richard and Elizabeth SIMPSON at Auckland St Helens. (both FindMyPast)
Christopher 14 Apr 1816
Elizabeth 13 May 1821
Also found a marriage for Richard and Elizabeth at Auckland St Andrews 11 May 1805. (FS)
Wiggy (Right - my head is spinning now! :D )
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Just thinking (and this is pure supposition so don't take it too seriously)
- was watching Who Do You Think You Are - - - - and they were saying how if there is a big gap between children, sometimes it means there has been VD in the family, and the children keep miscarrying - I don't know if that could possibly explain the distance between Mary 1807 and the next child in 1816.
What do you think about that?? I wonder if it could also explain the name of the first child baptised after the long wait. :-\ ::) All supposition of course - just thinking aloud!
Wiggy
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Hi Wiggy, I hope the jam got done :)
The weren't entirely barren during the gap. I found two more girls on FamilySearch.
Hannah Simpson
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
birth: 15 Oct 1809
christening: 21 Jan 1810 ESCOMB,DURHAM,ENGLAND
residence: 1809 Durham, England
parents: Richard Simpson, Elizabeth Hope
Barbara Simpson
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
birth: 11 Jul 1812
christening: 25 Dec 1812 AUCKLAND SAINT HELEN,DURHAM,ENGLAND
residence: 1812 Durham, England
parents: Richard Simpson, Elizabeth Hope
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In 1851 census, Ralph and Mary have a niece, Jane Mundell, aged 4, living with them.
HO107/2385/33/24
Familysearch has a baptism, 2 August 1846, Auckland St. Andrew. Jane Mundell, daughter of John and Barbara Mundell.
And a marriage, 27 May 1835, Auckland St. Andrew. John Mundale and Barbara Simpson.
Alan.
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Well found Alan - and Jim!
It is very odd that you can log into to those sites and come up with one set of info, and ten minutes later when you return you can be given another set of info - I find it very tricky! Have you noticed this happening - this isn't the first time by any means! very odd!
Wiggy :)
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Good catch Alan.
Wiggy, I'm willing to mark this thread Complete if you think we have learned as much as we can about Mary Simpson.
Yes, I've noticed that FamilySearch is especially that way.
BTW, what is this FindMyPast you are using? Sounds like a good resource.
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Find My Past - you have to pay either a years subs or by the look - I started by the look but found the years subs well worth it - (think you can also pay for ongoing) - like Ancestry but UK based - without the US records though I think - if you re in USA then Ancestry might be a better bet for you. Costs for both are very similar - i like it better 'cos what you find is what is in the records - (not 'submitted entries' which can sometimes confuse the issue with Family Search - as they aren't necessarily correct.)
It is your thread and if you are happy with what has been found then by all means . . . .
Glad to have been of some help!
Wiggy
p.s. yes the jam got done! ;D 13 jars of it!
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Yes Wiggy and Alan and Janice I'm very happy with what we have found. Well done to all. Happy New Year!!!