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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Berwickshire => Topic started by: Ayashi on Saturday 07 January 12 21:05 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone :)
I've finally moved into the realms of Scotland!
My search hit a bit of a rut when I realised my uneventful search for the deaths was because I was looking in the England and Wales BMD (duh... lol) and was hoping someone else might be able to help me :)
Firstly, we have William BRADY or BRODY, a shoemaker who was born over the border in Cornhill. He moved with his family over to Coldstream and does not appear on the 1841 census. The last child I know about was born 1823. I have no idea when he was born, but he was old enough to father a child in 1799.
Second, his wife, Jane BRADY or BRODY (it all depends on the transcription, I've found... usually the family is found under BRADY) who died between 1851 and 1861, presumably in Coldstream. Her date of birth is between 1781 and 1786, also Cornhill.
I would be very grateful if someone could find these for me, especially since the Brady family is my main interest and I'm chomping at the bit for information!
Thanks :)
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Hi Ayashi,
I can find one William Brady dying in Coldstream but he died in 1883 aged 74 so if he is yours he has to be a son? One tip,if you are on Scotlandspeople Brady brings up Brady and Brodie but Brodie only brings up Brody and Brodie!
Have you found all the children on the census in Coldstream?
Welcome to Scotland!
Barbara
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Thanks for that death, it corresponds to the eldest son from this marriage :)
I haven't got round to registering for Scotland's People yet, thanks for the tip :)
I believe so, yes. This marriage has William 1808, Elizabeth 1810 (d.1811), John 1812, James 1816, Helenor 1817, Hannah 1822 and George 1823 and I've been stalking them on census, that's how I found Jane on the 1841 and 1851 and not after. None of these are actually my direct line- naughty William had a little whoops child before his marriage ;) I would like his, obviously, and am creating a fuller picture of what he did with his life while I wait for a breakthrough on the illegitimate mother's side.
Nice to be here! :D
~ Edit ~ I now have Jane's death in 1853 :) William is proving a little more elusive but hopefully not for long!
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We genealogists are such good stalkers! ;)
How did you get her death in 1853? I am intrigued.
Let me know if I can help you further then. Can't find William snr's death unfortunately on Scotlandspeople in Berwickshire.
Are you descended from the whoopsie? ;D
Barbara
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The death is under Jane Brady, died 6th Jan 1853 in Coldstream, buried 9th Jan 1853 in Cornhill, I just looked it up normally on Scot's People and it came up :)
Yes, I am indeed! I think it was actually twins since I've got two children for the same year on familysearch (actually, baptised same day with same parents names... but dates of birth a few days out? Anyway, worth looking into...) but so far we've not found the second child anywhere other than familysearch...
Still working on William... he appears very much to be his son's father lol
I can't even find the marriage... ???
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Oh, i thought you hadn't used SP so was surprised you had found it otherwise. Selkirk Genealogy has published a lot of the deaths and Coldstream is one of them but they aren't online.
What is the name of your ancestor and his/her twin? And is it William and Jane's marriage you can't find? Have you checked the Coldstream Bridge marriages?
Barbara
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Had a look a the SGS Berwickshire MI (pre 1855) Vol 1- 2006 reprint A complete record of whole Coldstream MIs for Lennel Cemetery has still to be done by the local societies (quicker the better before we lose more stones).
In the book Brady and Brodie are mention and may help you
by Philip Trotter - father JohnTrotter d. at castlelaw 21.4.1821 66 yrs, mother Hannah Brady d. at Coldstream 24.8.1843 73 yrs - said Philip Trotter d. at Coldstream 27.3.1847 48yrs
John Cockburn d. at the Hirsel 24.8.1853 71yrs spouse Agnes Wood at the Hirsel ---yrs. Alison Brodie wife of James Cockburn d.in Kelso 14.2.1866 53 yrs, his son William d. in Kelso 27.3.1876 10mths. Mary Ann Scott wife of James Cockburn d. Kelso 1.11.1898 54yrs, above James Cockburn d. at Kelso 1.8.1897 80 yrs
By James Cleland, Veterinary Surgeon, Coldstream wife Helen Brady 16.3.1841 24 yrs. dau Helen 9.7.1837 2mths above James Cleland 30.8.1864 57 yrs. son George 24.6.1856 21 yrs his son James 16.11.1852 5yrs
John Brady d. Patrick 29.2.1876 69yrs 3rd son George d. at Patrick Glasgow 27.10.78 16yrs, wife Elizabeth Glendinning d. at Patrick 25.5.79 49yrs, 4th son James Porteous d.at partickhill 12.8.84 19yrs
Also at Mordington
Peter Brodie d. 25.6.1759 47yrs & William Brody son to Peter Brody d.22.9.1752 24yrs
Also Swinton
Helen Thomson wife of Andrew Brodie 27.1.18 75yrs above andrew brodie 10.12.1872 87 yrs
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Sorry for the confusion, I joined up after I posted here :)
Familysearch also has William Brody b 1799, Cornhill, father William and mother Margaret, whereas Mark was "Mark Brody Brody" (thought that was fishy lol) b 1799 Cornhill, father William and mother "Herd"... other transcripts have cumulated to put the mother as "Todd" and further as Margaret Todd, widow. I admit that it has been in my mind that familysearch has miswritten the entry for William and it is actually another incarnation of Mark's lol.
Yes, William Brady to Jane Scott, prior to first child 1808... I've looked on familysearch (beta and the Durham Bishop Transcripts) and on Scot's People... not sure where else to look at the moment.
Thanks Terianne, I recognise a few of those. I got confused about James Cleland because his marriage was to Helen but his wife on census was Hannah and those were the names of two sisters, but thanks to that death I've got it all straight now lol
John x Elizabeth Glendinning is also mine, so have noted those. Thanks :D
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I think the Coldstream Bridge marriage registers have only survived for the years 1793-7 although sometimes there were entries in the local newspapers. So that is probably where they married.
Are you sure this is the same William? Just strange that he had two sons named William, illegitimate or not. Is it the same address in Cornhill?
Mark is a bit of a strange name for the Borders too unless it is popular on the English side. These cross border families can be very difficult as you are finding ::)
I have a Trotter who wandered across to Yetholm but it is very difficult to prove where she came from. One day I will get down to Berwick and look for her seriously!
Barbara
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Oh. Well thanks. At least the marriage is not to my 5 x gt grandmother, I can live with not having it I guess lol
No, I'm not, but Cornhill is only small, right? This is why I wanted to find out more information about it, which is proving tricky. Sure, it could turn out to be a massive coincidence. There are inconsistencies (the two different dates of birth being the main one) but since I have four different transcripts of Mark's baptism (with two different dates of birth, neither matching William's...) I'm taking the whole thing with a pinch of salt.
I actually wouldn't have said it was odd for him to have two Williams, if one was illegitimate and one was by proper marriage, especially if the first William did not survive (I have no further information). It doesn't specify the address, just Cornhill.
Mark, or at least Mark Brady, is not a common name at all. Rather unusual if you think it's Biblical...
If an illegitimate child was given the father's surname, did the father have to give permission for it?
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Hi Ayashi
I am pretty sure the father would have to at least acknowledge the child for him to have that name. So who are you descended from?
I wonder if William was a Herd? That it is his occupation rather than the mother showing?
At least it being an unusual name, I would look for other Marks in Cornhill and it may give you clues about relations?
Barbara
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Have you found the burial for Hannah relict of William Brady, shoemaker in 1801, on the BT's is this William's parents?
Barbara
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I'm descended from Mark. He was my 4 x gt grandfather.
William was a shoemaker :) That's something the transcripts agree on at least (and William's family by Jane became shoemakers too).
I've done a preliminary search of William's family and it seems to be William son of William's and also Ralphs lol I can't see anything obvious re. other Marks...
:)
Yes, I have William and Hannah as possible parents, not confirmed. William later called a daughter Hannah and there is a William "Broody" burial that could be his that matches that date. I came across Hannah's death by accident while I was going through and through the BTs. Thanks :)
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I was thinking that it might give you a clue as to the mother if she has Marks in her family.
Its not easy tho!
Where did Mark end up?
Barbara
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True... I've tried looking for her marriage under her many names and the closest I can get is Margaret Smith marrying William Todd in Ford, Northumberland, on the Dissenter's records. And that's as far as my luck went lol.
Mark moved to North Shields, became a mariner, got married in 1829, had two children and was widowed in 1840. We believe he died in 1851 (in the process of proving) following the deaths of his only son, his son in law and grandson in the same year. If we've got the right one, Mark died in Newcastle, probably fresh off his ship. Not that the others died of anything infectious apart from the son-in-law. You can't catch a gas explosion ;)
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Not a very lucky family by the sound of it!
Barbara
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Very sad story... If Ann hadn't had her own little whoops child two years later, I wouldn't be here at all! lol
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Ha ha, I like that ;D And most of us can say the same thing!
Barbara
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There is a separate section in the Cornhill parish register for the baptisms of Dissenters. Mark Brody is recorded as being baptised 24 August 1799. He is said to be the natural son of William Brody, and the mother Margaret Sord [Sword] of Cornhill.
Margaret and Andrew Sord of Cornhill had a son, Thomas, baptised 28 January 1795, also recorded in the same register.
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Hi Jora,
Sure Ayashi will be pleased with that, where did you find it? Is this from a record office?
Barbara
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Hi Barbara,
Some years ago I did an abstract of Dissenters Baptisms in Parish Registers for Berwick Record Office. I have the original transcript, and there is a copy at Berwick Record Office.
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Thanks Jora,
I help out doing voluntary research for Borders Family History Society at their archives in Gala and it is always good to know where to find things.
You don't have a Sarah Trotter in your dissenters do you? She was born around 1791 (50 on the census in Yetholm 1841) born England. She married a Robert Scott around 1828 but had an illegitimate child to George Pringle Hughes of Middleton Hall around 1822. I suspect she is part of the Henry Trotter/Catherine Jackson Ford dissenters but have not been able to prove it.
Sorry to jump on the bandwagon here but it is worth a try.
Barbara
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ayashi
Probably off track but have you checked the surrounding areas
just been looking through the old MI for Ayton and notices a few Brodies from the late 1700's - Ayton is about 14 miles NE of Coldstream (also notice one or two Brodie in the MIs between)
Ayton =
James Brodie formerly tenant Ayton Mill b.22.12.1774 d. 13.7.1856, Jean Dunlop or Brodie his wife b.23.12.1776 d. 18.8.1833, Elizabeth Brodie their dau b.1.3.1805 d. 14.11.1826, Isabella Brodie their dau b,19.12.1806 d. 1833, Margaret Brodie their dau b.29.12.1814 d. 16.5.1845, Thomas Brodie their son tenant of Chester Bank b. 7.7.1811 d.15.10.1890, Isabella Renton Gibson wife of Thomas Brodie d. 20.1.1896 85yrs
Thomas Brodie tenant in Ayton Mill d.24.7.1812 72yrs, Hannah Cockburn his wife d. 31.1.1825 77yrs, Dorothy Brodie their dau who d.at Peel Walls cottage 30.6.1862 38yrs
Thomas Carr Brodie of Covey-heugh d, 4.2.1819 37yrs, John Brodie tenant of Ayton Mill d, 14.2.1825 41yrs, Rachel Brodie dau. of the Thomas Brodie merchant in Berwick d. Ayton 7.12.1852 6yrs
John Brodie 6.6.1860 80yrs, Margaret McLain his wife d,26.12.1857 67yrs, Robert V Brodie their son 16.9.1852 30yrs, 2 d. in infancy
Thomas Brodie memory of Sarah his dau d.26.10.1845 22yrs, Sarah Brodie her niece, dau of Robert Brodie d. 2.12.1848 20mths, said Robert Brodie 29.4.1852 25yrs above Thomas Brodie d. 29.5.1853 72yrs, Jane Yuel wife of above Thomas Brodie d. 26.3.1853 73yrs
William Brodie memory of his children Thomas d.22.3.1872 26yrs, Chrisian d. 3.3.1851 3yrs, William d. 11.2.1859 1.5yrs, above William Brodie d. 1.11.1883 64yrs, Janet Kerr his wife d.21.6.1886 70yrs
Hannah Brodie spouse of Peter Cockburn tenant of Whiterigg d, 14.2.1824 36yrs, Peter Cockburn her husband d. 20.6.1824 42yrs
John son of Thomas Bowhill writer Ayton d. 16.12.1840 4mths. Isabella his dau d. 4.3.1852 16yrs said Thomas Bowhill d. 14.3.1857 56yrs and William Bowhill his 3rd son d. 9.2.1860 22yrs, John his youngest son at the Estancia on the bank of the Rio Negro, Uruigay, South America 7.5.1886 44yrs, Jean Brodie his (Thomas) widow d.at Edinburgh 19.7.1887 85yrs
You never know they might help
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Thanks Terianne, I don't know where those guys would fit in with the scheme of things even if they are mine, I've traced most of William and Jane's children all to Coldstream and haven't really got further back than that.
Thanks Jora. So you can see the original and the writing is clear? (Is it possible to see the image?) I'm sorry if I seem doubting, but that's four surnames she's got now and I think my brain just melted ;D
(Funnily enough, just found the baptism of Thomas on familysearch... father Handrew Ford... sometimes I want to throttle that site lol)
As an aside, how many registers do you think this entry exist in? I don't know if she might have ended up with different surnames in different registers from some form of muck-up...
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Are they extracts from the parish records that you have found them on before, Ayashi? Only I didn't see them on the BTs.
As far as you know they were in Cornhill as a family before moving to Coldstream or do you think they perhaps moved from Coldsteam and were Scottish. Brodie is certainly Scottish, but not Brady so much. Or is that still all a bit of a mystery and you are going one step at a time like a sensible genealogist ;)
Barbara
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Barbara,
I have sent you a PM about the Trotters.
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I haven't seen any of the original records, only transcripts. I live down the opposite end of the country and am not mobile :(
From familysearch:
"Mark Brody Brody
b.7 Aug 1799
ch. 24 Aug 1799, Cornhill, Northumberland
Father Wiliam
Mother Herd"
From t-mo (rootschatter), posted 4th March 2011:
"mark brady born 7 aug 1799 bpt 24 aug 1799 dads name william mums maiden name ord dad shoemaker mum widow ? place of birth cornhill northumberland .
data provided by northumberland & durham family hiistory society"
From 2zpool (rootschatter), 5th Jan 2012:
"Brody/Todd: Mark born 7 Aug 1799, baptised 24 Aug 1799 natural son of William Brody, Shoemaker, of Cornhill, his mother Widow Todd
This is the only with Brody/Todd.
From Dissenter section:
[...]
Born 11 Aug 1799, bapt 24 Aug 1799 Mark Brody, Natural son of William Brody by his mother Maigreat said widow, Cornhill
This is from a transcript of the parish record."
Further to that, there is the familysearch record:
“William Brody
b. 19 Aug 1799
ch. 24 Aug 1799, Cornhill, Northumberland
Father Wiliam
Mother Margreat”
But no one seems able to find this one! I mean, William and Margaret? Different DoB but it’s driving me a bit mad in itself not knowing how this one fits in, if at all.
So close to the border, they could be either! On the census they all say born England, but it seems all but the first three children were born in Coldstream, so they might have considered Coldstream as English territory at that time? The first three children as well as both parents were christened in Cornhill. Mark, as far as I know, didn’t move from Cornhill until he came down to Tynemouth but I guess I probably won’t know about his life before 1829.
Yeah, the whole Brady/Brodie thing is just a go on and see situation… My cousin in NI was convinced that Mark’s grandson William came from Ireland and since he’s still not talking to me I still haven’t been able to tell him he was born in Northumberland! He might accept that, but bet he’d have a fit if the proud Irishman found out the Bradys were actually Scottish!
It seems that most transcripts I’ve seen have recorded Mark as baptised BRODY but I really wanted to see the originals to work it out for myself. Without variation, William’s children on census take BRADY. My original thought was that Mark was baptised BRODY and then moved down into a predominantly Irish area (Tynemouth being popular with the Irish) and his name got mutated, but further investigation has blown that up. So, I’m just keeping an open mind at the moment and waiting to see where the line takes me :)
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I don't know where all the other records you have seen have come from, but this is the genuine article, transcribed by me! Punctuation and spelling as in the original.
Brody 24 Agust 1799. Mark Brody Natrel son of William Brody by his Mother Margreat sord, widow, Cornhill.
This entry is from a list entitled "Register of Strangers 1756. Baptisms"
Brady. 10 January 1772. William the son of William Brady of Cornhill said to be baptised.
These are the entries for the 1st 2 children of William Brody and Jane Scot:-
William 1st son of William Brody, native of Cornhill, shoe-maker, by his wife Jane Scote, native of Cornhill, born 11 July 1808
John 2nd son of William Brody, native of Cornhill, shoe-maker, by his wife Jane Scote, native of Cornhill, born 23 April 1812
I agree with Barbara - the family seem to have come into Cornhill about 1770, and William returns to Coldstream with his family about 1812, but as it is only about a mile it wasn't too far for them to go.
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Thanks Jora :D It is much appreciated!
At least William put his name to Mark... got a few illegitimates in my tree and so sad to have the loss of one parent name make such a big chunk of nothing in your entire tree...
Isn't it just as well I kept poking about this? Otherwise I could still be looking for Herds and Ords ::)
~ Edit- wait... Register of Strangers? Does that mean that "William Brady of Cornhill" wasn't born in Cornhill, just living there at the time and they came from somewhere else?
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I wonder if the William 1799 was user submitted and not from the Parish Records, Ayashi. I asked about Coldstream as I can help a bit that side but not much good at the Northumberland side, you need Jora for that. It would be interesting to see how many Brodies were in Coldstream before your William the father and also if there were other Bradys in the Cornhill area of Northumberland.
I think in those days people flitted very casually between Cornhill and Coldstream as they were so close and many families moved backwards and forwards probably for work.
Barbara
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No one I ask seems to know how to tell if one is extracted or submitted on familysearch's beta site and I can't find the entry on the classic.
I'm having more luck with William's side, certainly. The baptism that Jora gave matched the one I found on familysearch and more or less to the only death I could find vaguely like the name. That being the case, I think I've found Hannah BROADY 1769 in Coldstream (no mother) before William BRADY 1772 Cornhill and John BRADY 1778 Cornhill, of William and Hannah. They are a bit stretched out as kids go though...
I had previously speculated on that William's baptism and there was a reasonable one in Cornhill, but if the evidence points to him having come from elsewhere then I'll follow where it goes :) There appear to be several Brady families in the area, although from the reusages of names (Ralph popped up a few times) I'm thinking they are probably cousin lines.
Margaret on the other hand, not a sausage lol. There is a marriage to a Henry Sword at a good date in Cornhill, but no Andrew that I can find, and no S(w)ord deaths (tried on both sides of the border)... I'm still working on that :)
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I know that the new Family Search has a whole load of baptisms attributed to Lillliesleaf where I live that are actually Maxton. That batch number with William 1799 has over 9000 names all Cornhill. C156021 and although all seem to be duplicated, even 4500 christenings in such a small place seems a bit wrong. Perhaps Jora could take a look and see if she knows where they should be cos I don't think they are really Cornhill. Very misleading.
Ralph is also an unusual name for Scotland but as you say they could all be related. Sorry Ayashi we are making matters more confusing rather than clearing it up for you. Have you been in touch with any Brady and Brody researchers on the two sides of the Border who might have some ideas?
And Coldstream was always Scotland!
Barbara
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Don't be sorry, it's all in fun at the end of it I guess! I haven't, and admittedly not even thought of looking for any! How would someone go about doing that, looking in Google or a specific site?
It is only recently that I've been able to confirm Mark's baptism as the Cornhill one rather than a Durham one and to be honest, I thought that would never happen (Mark later got into a fight with someone on his ship and smashed the man so hard over the head with a handspike that it shattered his skull... I read the records in the Old Bailey and it gave quite a few handy pointers!)
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Love it, if they are in the papers you can get so much more on them! Have you tried the new British Newspaper Archive site as you may get a lot more on him?
For other Brady/Brody researchers you could try GenesReunited or you could look at a Brady or Brodie mailing list or message list on Rootsweb.com or Genforum. Just do searches for any of these and you will find them. Or try a search or this site? There will be a Northumberland and Berwickshire mailing lists and message lists which you could search the archives of.
I will have a quick look at my break today and see if I find anything likely. Are you a member of GenesReunited?
Barbara
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I did have a quick look on the newspapers. The only entries we've found so far are for Mark's incident, his son's death in a colliery explosion and his grandson doing very well in fruit and vegetable shows. Nothing on Mark's early life or of his parents or anything as yet.
OK, thanks, I'll have a look at that.
I am not a paying member, but I do have a skeleton tree on there that I've not updated in years. The only person who has contacted me about my Bradys is my cousin Ray, who I mentioned before. I'm far ahead of him in that research now. I think so few Bradys survived that there aren't so many descendants researching them!
By the way... as far as I'm aware, the Dissenters was an early term for what was later the Nonconformists? What religion(s) would this most likely be in Cornhill way? I have had it said to me that Presbyterianism was common up there, would this count as Dissenter?
Thanks again :)
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Yes I think they would be the most common dissenters just over the Border.
Ayashi, don't know what I was thinking of - I am on the committee for Borders Family History Society and our website has member's interests. There is an Ian Bedford looking for Bradys in Cornhill and Coldsteam. There is also a Brodie researcher with Brodies in Ayton.
http://www.bordersfhs.org.uk/BFHSInterestsSearchSurnameIx.asp
Hope you get some info there.
Let us know
Barbara
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Thanks a lot, Barbara! I hadn't heard of that lot before. I've just registered and am having a look, will let you know :)
~Edit- I've emailed him now :) Intriguingly, he also has an interest in SCOTT ;) Oh, and GLENDINNING, which a son married... From that brief investigation, I think he could be a descendant of John Brady, but we'll see!
I really hope he answers, I don't know how long ago he registered for this for a start lol
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If he doesn't reply in a couple of weeks let me know and I can check with our secretary if he is still a member.
Barbara
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Well, nothing, and I looked on the forums and it's deader than a dodo... but I suppose at least I've made a note of my interests in case anyone else pops up in the future.
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Hi-sorry if this has come too late but I have stumbled across a lot of paperwork relating to a purchase of land in Seahouses by William Brady (shoemaker of Coldstream) in 1850.
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Thank you Richard. I expect that is the son William (1808-1883). Do you have an interest in the Coldstream BRADYs?
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Hi - no, none that I know of! My grandfather (Edward Fordy White-a relation of Grace Darling) was a builder/roofer in Seahouses. My father died last year and I’ve inherited all the documents passed down through the ages.. there’s a lot of testaments, trustee assignations etc relating to the Brady’s from 1850 and especially John and William Brady and their spouses. 7-8 lengthy documents with a wax-stamp on one so definitely an original. Very interesting information for anyone who is joining the dots on a family tree! I just googled William Brady Coldstream shoemaker and found this forum thread !
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And there’s a John Glendinning Brady, James Porteous and Adam Brady mentioned too but in 1880 it seems they had already moved to 15 Hayburn Crescent Patrick Glasgow sons of John Brady. What shall I do with all these documents?
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I’ve found a document that explains why my family has an interest. My great grandparents (Sarah and Jospeh White of Seahouses) seems to have purchased their property off the benefactors of William Brady’s land in 1921. Paperwork must have been left in the house!
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Thank you. John Glendinning, James Porteous and Adam were sons of John, son of William Snr, so (half)nephews of my ancestor. It is all very interesting, it is unfortunate that it isn't my line really. That said, I do have a lot of interesting things about my direct BRADY line, probably the most interesting and tragic timeline of my entire tree. I think I did come across a descendant of William Snr's legitimate family once but I don't think we got very far in conversation, if at all.