RootsChat.Com
Family History Documents and Artefacts => Graveyards and Gravestones => Topic started by: Richview on Wednesday 11 January 12 10:38 GMT (UK)
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Good Morning,
For many years my husband and I have been gravestone photo volunteers in South Wales UK and in the past 12 months are shocked at the state of both Council run cemeteries and churchyards.With the Health & Safety rules and vandalism we are losing so many historical gravestones that are invaluable for family tree research.
With a large portion of my own research based in AU & USA I've been fortunate with the help of RAOKG
and Find A Grave to obtain photographs but here in the UK we seem reluctant to get involved.If we don't make a move and take photographs now in a few years it will be to late.
We enjoy our Sunday morning walks through one of the UK largest 110 acre cemeteries and always manage to photograph at least 50 old memorials.
I know of 2 sites eager to add photo's so please lets all give it some thought and act before it's to late.
We have such wonderful old churchyards in Cornwall,Devon,Wales -it's a good hobby and as in our case we sent a photo to an 89 year old lady that had never seen her grandfathers grave.
Richview
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The churchyard at Llangyfelach scares me as the first thing I saw as I was walking in there were 2 cans of cider on the floor and a used condom. :o
On top of one monument was a discarded syringe. I'm certainly not going to be going walking through the long grass in there. Why don't the police do something, along with church wardens.
David.
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I know of 2 sites eager to add photo's so please lets all give it some thought and act before it's to late.
Richview, do you mean 2 churchyards / cemeteries or 2 websites?
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Hi Sikes,
I have come across 2 websites for adding grave photo's but I guess that there are probably more.
One is Find A Grave the other Gravestone Photographic Resource.
I noticed with Find A Grave there are many UK entries with very few photo's attached
I added a few photo's on the weekend with the information already in place it takes a few mins to just add a photo to the entry.
R
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This site has a list of churches that are to be sold, so they might be a priority for photographing. :-\
http://www.churchinwales.org.uk/resources/property/index.php
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Churchwardens???? :(
Cemeteries will usually have groundsmen who work during the day. And Churchyards may have a gardener or gravedigger. I doubt if many churchyards these days would have a churchwarden.
In London, many cemetaries are not locked or do not have very high walls to stop people from gaining access after hours. The Police will not know about the problems unless called out to an 'incident'.
Neither Police or those responsible will have the time to patrol after hours.
Many cemeteries have 'Friends' these days and these will often be volunteers who will try to keep the cemetery clean and tidy.
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Our church has churchwardens!
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Our Church has infact 2 churchwardens but they are not at Church on a daily basis.
In the main churchyards are not closed at night
Our large council cemetery is 110 acres divide by a main road gone are the day's when a lady can visit a grave alone I certainly wouldn't.
Last summer visiting my grandparents grave was shall I say interesting the local cider drinkers had gone to sleep on graves further along there were another group
very drunk and not treating the area with respect. I was warned one morning by 2 police officers not to carry a bag as they had had a spate of thefts.
The saddest sight is the way that historic graves and private war graves are falling into a state of disrepair which if you read my first post I suggested that perhaps we should all make an effort to photograph the graves before it's to late.Once they are gone a large part of family history is lost for future generations.
Be it churchyards or council cemeteries with little effort there are many of us that could take a few photographs -my husband and I enjoy taking volunteer photo's
and also take some for several sites -in 3 years we have taken around 2000 and far from boring it's a very interesting hobby.
R
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Does someone who takes photos of gravestones need permission of the church for a churchyard or the council if its a cemetery and the photos are to be put on a website.
Steve
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A number of "churchyards" are no longer the responsibility of the church that they seem to be attached to - especially if the stones have been moved. They go over to the parish council who become responsible for maintenance etc. Sadly, the maintenance of churchyards doesn't seem to be a high priority. We are fortunate in that all the stones in our yard have been recorded by a volunteer and are on findagrave.
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Hi :)
This is the project we started just over a year ago following a discussion on the Lancashire board. We too were dismayed at the neglected state of the cemetery.
www.mgctp.moonfruit.com
We are pleased to report that whilst we have been carrying out the project, Manchester City Council have been undertaking a programme to re-install fallen and toppled gravestones.
Does someone who takes photos of gravestones need permission of the church for a churchyard or the council if its a cemetery and the photos are to be put on a website.
Steve
Before we started our project, we approached the Council's Bereavement Services Team for their permission which we have and their advice and support has been invaluable.
We are able to accommodate individual grave searches for people who are unable to visit the cemetery themselves and have helped people both locally and as far away as Australia and New Zealand.
Luzzu
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The National Federation of Cemetery Friends have volunteer members mainly in England, a couple in Scotland and one member in Wales. There other Friends groups who for various reasons remain independent and not part of the federation.The Federation was at forefront of the campaign to stop councils tearing down monuments and grave stones using mechanical testing tools and guidelines issued by central government require cemetery managers to make attempts to contact Burial Rights Owners prior to any mass demolition exercise. It is interesting that the majority of grave headstones with weak or suspect foundation were less than 25 years in age and the more substantial Victorian headstones were sure and steadfast.The guidelines require the first test to be visual and then a hand rocking by experienced masons and the forceful pressure of a pushing implement to be used as the final stage and exceptionally rather than routine. The HSE has urged councils to act moderately and with respect and not to use perceived health and safety risks as a wholesale destruction. There are cases where the Local Government Ombudsman has awarded compensation or ordered "trigger happy councils" to reinstate damaged graves.
We all want cemeteries and graveyards to be safe but known recorded accidents are very few and far between compared with fatalities in crossing a road.
Unfortunately thieves rob bronze memorial plaques, uncooperative dog owners permit dog fouling, university students urinate on cenotaphs, druggies leave needles and vandals destroy graves and others fall into disrepair because either families have moved away or the line has died out. We can dispair at our society or try as individuals to do something and a photographic study is but one welcomed attempt. Police and local councils will tell you that they do not have resources to control those situations. It is not the responsibility of councils to maintain privately owned graves but if they are unable to trace BRO's or relatives are not prepared to make a grave to be in a safe state then the council may decide to either provide a support or remove the dangerous stone.
The cemetery friends movement has been in being for some years long before politicians considered the Big Society but it is a fact that many cemeteries have been saved from ultimate destruction by these volunteers.
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Your reply is very interesting and informative. Health and safety is a major concern and with regard to older memorials who is left to be contacted
There is little than can be done or indeed will be done it's very sad to see a pile of broken masonry where a monument once stood. It is also very moving to see many of the "Private" War Graves in such a state.
For several years my husband and I have taken both volunteer photographs for individuals and also for a free site -one gentleman wanted to see his grandfathers grave he lived in the USA so my husband happily searched and found just rubble.
There is no answer but surely if people would get involved in just photographing the memorials for the sites online we would at least have a record -gone are the days when a family researcher could turn up at a cemetery and be told where g grandpa was buried -I was just quoted £100 by a council to tell me the location of 5 of my g grandfathers cousins.
We actually enjoy our hobby and have take pleasure in emailing the photographs. But I know volunteers are few and far between in the UK-when you look at the various sites it's sad to see so little interest in the UK yet we all belong to this site for the same reason we are working on our family research. My "tree" is based in Cornwall for 3 years I have found it extremely difficult to find people willing to take memorial photographs -I am reminded of one Vicar who told me to get the train or bus and look myself.A 5 hour journey perhaps to find nothing!
My post was made with the hope that perhaps people living near a small church or cemetery would do as we are doing.
I can only say it's interesting good exercise and people really do appreciate your efforts.
Richview
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Our small team of volunteers at Manchester General Cemetery feel that all the effort is worthwhile when we get "thank you" notes like this:-
"Massive thanks in helping me track down my grandfathers grave. We've been looking for a while to locate his grave, and within a few days your team led me in the right direction. Hope you know what it means to us to finally find him."
"Thank you dosn't seem adequate to explain my feelings for you finding and photographing my G and GGmothers grave. I have searched the graveyard a few times and was unable to find it."
"A big thank you to the volunteers of The Manchester General Cemetery Transcription Project without their help I would never have found my Great Great Grandparents headstone which was hidden under 3" of turf and forgotten for over 90 years. The volunteers are doing a fantastic job of conserving the cemetery for future generations of family historians by mapping and photographing the headstones."
We really hope our project will encourage other groups in other areas to have a go at something like this and as Richview says it is our hobby and we really enjoy being involved in something like this.
I understand our authorities don't have the resources to control the druggies and other unsavoury characters who frequent our cemeteries but these people, I think, use the cemeteries to hide and if people like the Friends and the Family History groups encourage people to start going into cemeteries more and bringing attention to their neglect and decay, the people who are up to no good will hopefully disappear because they don't want to be seen.
Luzzu
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Richview, I am also a volunteer, I submit my photos to www.gravestonephotos.com
It's a completely free service, relying on volunteers.
They have very few photos from South Wales at the moment (disappointing as that's where my family are from)
My dream is to get a photo of my ggg grandparents grave in Nantyfyllon, which apparently was still in existence in the 1980's, but now the graveyard has been turned into a children's playground, and the headstones removed and stacked around the perimeter.
Keep up the good work!
Caroline.
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Hi Caroline,
Yes I agree there are few photographs from Wales which is such a shame.
It's a problem with many old chapels and small churches being sold to convert to private houses and although they say the gravestones will remain we have found so many just vanish.
Will "PM" you.
Richview
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It's good to read that there are other people who enjoy taking gravestone photo's
for sites and also individuals researching their family trees.
I would agree with Richview we are losing a vast amount of history -stones are indeed deteriorating, being removed for H&S or just plain vandalism. If everyone visiting a cemetery or churchyard to take photographs of family graves -would take a few others and add them to the free sites what a difference it would make.
Over the past years years I have taken in excess 3000 photo's -and enjoyed every minute
L
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I have been recording graves for my new website, mainly in Wales at the moment (though I have more to add):
http://www.graveseekers.co.uk/map
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It was decided by a court a couple of years ago that councils that toppled headstones were liable to pay to re-instate them.
I don't have the reference for that decision at hand but some of the following links are interesting.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7712066.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7071772.stm
http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/who_pays_for_toppled_gravestones_1_312515
http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Saffron-Walden/Council-has-to-bite-bullet-over-headstones-bill-12012012.htm
Cheers
Guy
http://www.thewestonmercury.co.uk/news/council_to_fund_toppled_gravestone_repairs_1_331266
http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/3835318.Blackburn_with_Darwen_Council__set_to_pay_for_grave_topple_tests_/?action=complain&cid=7336725
http://www.hucknalldispatch.co.uk/news/local-news/grave-topple-testing-council-were-wrong-1-672887