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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Denbighshire => Wales => Denbighshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: WelcomeTraveller on Thursday 29 March 12 21:28 BST (UK)
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Thank you in advance for looking at this.
I have a copy of a picture that I was told was of a Chirk Parish register from 1866 that lists a William Aubrey (appears to be child of Charles and Jane from what I can read). I was told many years ago that this was my great grandfather and yet I cannot seem to find any record of him anywhere online in Chirk (or relatively close by).
I did find a Charles and Jane in Chirk in 1881's Census, with 6 children, but no reference to William. I'm looking for any information on a marriage or confirmation of Charles & Jane as parents or anything else, actually.
Again, thank you!
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat :)
At the moment, I don't see an entry for him on the North Wales BMDs or on the GRO index (Oswestry RD). Are you able to scan the entry and put it up for us to look at or say if it gives info about his parents - residence/occupation, please?
I have many Chirk records as my ancestors were from there but I can't see him in them either :-\
gnu
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Are you sure it's not 1876? A possible entry for him then. Will check for GRO index.
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GRO ref for his birth:
Dec q, 1876, Oswestry, v 6a p 741
gnu
Added - the Findmypast site www.findmypast.co.uk (pay/subs site) might well have his baptism record - we can't give details from these as it's against the T & C of FindMyPast
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Sadly, a death for him, same quarter:
Dec q, 1876, Oswestry, v. 6a p 486, aged under 1
gnu
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Hm, thought I posted but I'm not quite sure it took... so let me try again, sorry if it's a repeat post. Thank you so much for your quick responses.
My grandfather was born in 1888 - so the 1866 would seem logical for his father but it's all from "verbal hand me down" information - if you know what I mean.
The picture of the Chirk Parish Register - actually.. it says "Chirk Chapel Record", apologies... my uncle told us it was from 1866 and referenced that on his picture, it's not a good zoom'able picture and I can't seem to find the "attach" button to upload it, no option under the "Attach... " link. Sorry if I'm being dense.
Thanks again!
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Ah - this is a look up thread so you can't upload - sorry!
Are you still interested in Charles and Jane as I have this
The 1871 ~
Chirk Green, Chirk
RG10/2784/49/13
Charles Aubrey, 29, labourer, b. Penybont, Radnor
Jane, w, 22
Mary Elizth, d, 5
Jane, d, 4
Sarah Ann, d, 1
Charles, s, 2 mths
All others born Chirk
I'll see if I can find a marriage
I'll send you a personal message with my e-mail and you could send the image to me that way.
We can't put e-mail information on here -spam, etc.
gnu
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Marriage Sept q, 1864, Oswestry, v 6a p 1188
Charles Aubrey and Jane Ward on the same page
Do you have William on later censuses or any other info about him?
gnu
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I cannot seem to find anything on William in that area at all. And thank you for that marriage info!
To go with what you found, I also found the following in an 1881 census, so that would match your find – and interestingly, I find everyone but Mary in Lancashire in the 1891 census and Lancashire is where my grandfather was born – this detective work is fascinating and frustrating.
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Aubrey 38
Jane Aubrey 32
Mary E. Aubrey 15
Charles Aubrey 10
Edith Aubrey 8
Thomas Aubrey 6
Sarah A. Aubrey 3
Morgan E. Aubrey 1
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Very puzzling :-\
The 1891 has Charles and Jane with 10 children but no William RG12/3087/78/44
Who/when/where did William marry?
gnu
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Only suggestion I have is a William Aubrey b shrewsbury c 1868 who later is living in the Llangollen area. His parents appear to b Joseph & Martha, both from berkshire
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Thank you for looking... I'll note that one down in case it turns out Chirk is incorrect as well.
Appreciate your time!
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A bit more on the Chirk family, in case you don't have this ~
By 1901, Charles is dead an Jane is still living in Leigh with some of her children:
Sportsman Street, Leigh
RG13/3594/49/39
Jane Aubrey, wid, 52, b. Chirk
Thomas, s, 26. coal miner -hewer, b. -do-
Morgan, s, 21. drawer in a coal mine, b. -do-
John, s, 19, -do-, b. Leigh
Bertha, d, 17, cotton twister. b. -do-
Mabel,d, 15, cotton minder, b. Abram
Archie, s, 12, b, Leigh
Llewellyn, s, 10, b. -do-
gnu
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I did not have this and it absolutely confirms that lineage, that is amazingly helpful. It seems Charles and Jane were actually parents, not grand parents - 12 children (including poor William) and she was something like 47 with the last one. Goodness.
I'm sorry to ask after all this fabulous information, but do you have a similar copy of the 1891 census where you saw the 10 children please? I cannot seem to locate in the sites I search.
And I'll say it again, thank you so much!
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RG12/3087/78/44
137 Pland Lane, Leigh
Charles Aubrey, 48, Coal miner b. ? Pembrokeshire
Jane, 43, b. Chirk
Charles, 20, coal miner, b. -do-
Edith, 18, cotton spinner piecer, b. -do-
Thomas, 16, coal miner drawer, b. -do-
Sarah A, 13, b. -do-
Morgan E, 11, b. -do-
John, 9, b. West Leigh
Bertha, 7, b. -do-
Mabel, 5, b. -do-
Archibald, 2, b. -do-
Llewellyn, 5 mths, b. -do-
I'll see if I can find anything on Jane (Ward) b.c. 1849 Chirk :)
gnu
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And for the umpteenth time, thank you. Just amazing.
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This looks like Jane with her mother and grandparents in 1851:
Chirk Green, Chirk
HO107/1993/825/15
Thomas Ward, 53, Sawyer, b.Oswestry
Margaret, w, 54, b. Chirk
Mary, daughter in law, wid, 28, b. Ruabon
Jane, daughter, 2, b. Chirk - assume that Mary is Jane's mother
John Evans, brother in law, unm, 38, farm labourer, b. Chirk
This family rings a bell - I may have followed them for someone else - I'll have a think on it!
gnu
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These come within the date range of my own records
Baptism Chirk 3 Dec 1848 Jane d/o Thomas (sawyer) and Mary Ward. Abode - Chirk Green
Burial Chirk 22 March 1849 Thomas Ward. Aged 29
gnu
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Marriage of Jane's grandparents~
Chirk 5 Sept 1815 Thomas Ward, of Oswestry and Margaret Evans, of Chirk
I don't see a marriage in either my Chirk or Ruabon records for Thomas and Mary at the moment. I've not got all of the records with me up here so will check next week.
gnu
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Wrexham Advertiser October 20, 1866
A Charles Aubrey was sentenced to 6 months hard labour for felony ( theft)
The articles were stolen at Chirk and were the property of the Great Western Railway.
Wrexham Advertiser September 14, 1867
A Charles Aubrey of Chirk Green had 2nd prize for 6 round potatoes at Chirk Flower Show.
WA October 02, 1869
Charles Aubrey charges with assault at Chirk
WA Saturday, September 18 1875
Squabble for funeral money.
John Ward of Liverpool ( plaintiff) V Charles Aubrey
Plaintiff claimed £4 which was paid on the death of his mother by the Chirk Union Friendly Society. It seems to have been paid to the defendants wife ( Aubrey) who was his neice.
Wards mother had been recieving parish relief for many years.
Well -- at least this last item seems to be the same family ;)
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Only suggestion I have is a William Aubrey b shrewsbury c 1868 who later is living in the Llangollen area. His parents appear to b Joseph & Martha, both from berkshire
Saturday, July 14, 1877
This Joseph Aubrey commited suicide by hanging in Shrewsbury prison,
He was the Deputy Governer and left a widow and 5 children.
By 1881 Martha was a launderess , poor thing. :'(
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Think the one in Reply #19 might well be the same family but the Shrewsbury one is different.
Hmmm -those missdeameanors - maybe that's why they were in Lancashire in the 1880s
gnu
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Poor Joseph and Martha, hung himself - sigh. The information you guys have is just amazing.
Oh, gnu, if you mean my Aubreys... Charles (and some of the sons) was a coal miner and there were a series of coal mines in the area. There was also a rather nasty mine accident in 1886 in the city they moved to - so who knows if that was part of what brought them over. Sadly, our family isn't the best with keeping historical information.
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My grandfather was born in 1888 - so the 1866 would seem logical for his father but it's all from "verbal hand me down" information - if you know what I mean.
Thanks again!
This is the only Aubrey registered in 1888 in Lancashire.
Births Jun 1888
AUBREY Archibald Ward . Leigh 8c 279
1891
RG12/3087/78/44
137 Pland Lane, Leigh
Charles Aubrey, 48, Coal miner b. ? Pembrokeshire
Jane, 43, b. Chirk
Charles, 20, coal miner, b. -do-
Edith, 18, cotton spinner piecer, b. -do-
Thomas, 16, coal miner drawer, b. -do-
Sarah A, 13, b. -do-
Morgan E, 11, b. -do-
John, 9, b. West Leigh
Bertha, 7, b. -do-
Mabel, 5, b. -do-
Archibald, 2, b. -do-
Llewellyn, 5 mths, b. -do-
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And here are the family in 1871 Transcribed as Aubury
RG10; Piece: 2784; Folio: 49; Page: 13; GSU
Chirk Green.
Charles Aubury 20 labourer b Penybont Radnorshire
Jane Aubury 23 b Chirk
Mary Elizth Aubury 5
Jane Aubury 4
Sarah Ann Aubury 1
Charles Aubury 2 Months
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Hi Wilcoxon
I've already given this census info last week. See my replies back on Thursday.
It really is important to read the whole thread to avoid duplication. I thought you'd been a member long enough to realise that!
RG12/3087/78/44
137 Pland Lane, Leigh
Charles Aubrey, 48, Coal miner b. ? Pembrokeshire
Jane, 43, b. Chirk
Charles, 20, coal miner, b. -do-
Edith, 18, cotton spinner piecer, b. -do-
Thomas, 16, coal miner drawer, b. -do-
Sarah A, 13, b. -do-
Morgan E, 11, b. -do-
John, 9, b. West Leigh
Bertha, 7, b. -do-
Mabel, 5, b. -do-
Archibald, 2, b. -do-
Llewellyn, 5 mths, b. -do-
The 1871 ~
Chirk Green, Chirk
RG10/2784/49/13
Charles Aubrey, 29, labourer, b. Penybont, Radnor
Jane, w, 22
Mary Elizth, d, 5
Jane, d, 4
Sarah Ann, d, 1
Charles, s, 2 mths
All others born Chirk
gnu
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;D ;D ;D
Ah yes, so you did. I hang my head in shame . ;)
I wonder if the two main sites FindMyPast and Anc** have different transcriptions.
I wonder if this is Charles in 1851. ??? Transcribed as Awbrey .
On Genuki I found a Penybont in the parish of Llanbadarn Fawr.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/RAD/LlanbadarnFawr/Gaz1868.html
1851 HO107; Piece: 2488; Folio: 153; Page: 8
Mill ? Houses , Llanbadarn Fawr Llandrindod
Elizabeth Awbrey widow 36 b Llanbadarn Fawr
Jane Awbrey 11 dau b "
Charls Awbrey 8 son b "
David Awbrey 6 son b Llandrindod
Sarah Thomas 30 lodger b Llanbaran Fawr.
Could this be the same family ?
1841
Lower House, Penybont . ;D ;D ;D Llanbadarn Fawr
John Aubrey 30 mason Y
Elizabeth Aubrey 25 Y
John Aubrey 5 N
Elizabeth Aubrey 3 N
Jane Aubrey 1 N
MODIFIED PLACE PLACE NAME IN 1851
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I always use the images - you're not supposed to use the transcriptions - verboten
gnu
Added - I see that you've added substantially to your post:
;D ;D ;D
Ah yes, so you did. I hang my head in shame . ;)
I wonder if the two main sites FindMyPast and Anc** have different transcriptions.
It looks a good possible for Charles - have you looked in Radnorshire as well, just in case?
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It looks a good possible for Charles - have you looked in Radnorshire as well, just in case?
The link to Penybont , Llanbadarn Fawr on Genuki is Radnorshire.
I can`t seem to find Charles in 1861, there are so many variations on the spelling of Aubrey / Awbry/ Owbry / etc ??.
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I'm sure that you'd quoted Pembrokeshire - I'll see if it's been cached. You seem to change so many of your postings, we'll need a detector to decipher them soon.
It really is best to insert 'add' or modify' or whatever.
I'm not really sure what you're playing at - first of all you copy and paste directly from census info* that I've posted already and then do major modification/additions to your posts .
* See this - :
Me
Quote from: gnu on Thursday 29 March 12 23:49 BST (UK)
RG12/3087/78/44
137 Pland Lane, Leigh
Charles Aubrey, 48, Coal miner b. ? Pembrokeshire
Jane, 43, b. Chirk
Charles, 20, coal miner, b. -do-
Edith, 18, cotton spinner piecer, b. -do-
Thomas, 16, coal miner drawer, b. -do-
Sarah A, 13, b. -do-
Morgan E, 11, b. -do-
John, 9, b. West Leigh
Bertha, 7, b. -do-
Mabel, 5, b. -do-
Archibald, 2, b. -do-
Llewellyn, 5 mths, b. -do-
and you:
1891
RG12/3087/78/44
137 Pland Lane, Leigh
Charles Aubrey, 48, Coal miner b. ? Pembrokeshire
Jane, 43, b. Chirk
Charles, 20, coal miner, b. -do-
Edith, 18, cotton spinner piecer, b. -do-
Thomas, 16, coal miner drawer, b. -do-
Sarah A, 13, b. -do-
Morgan E, 11, b. -do-
John, 9, b. West Leigh
Bertha, 7, b. -do-
Mabel, 5, b. -do-
Archibald, 2, b. -do-
Llewellyn, 5 mths, b. -do-
You've even copied and pasted my ? and -do- And all you do is laugh when an apology would have been more appropriate ::)
Added - From Rootschat Copyright page:
Please note that somebody else's transcription is their own work, which you cannot copy unless they have given their permission
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php
gnu
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No,I can assure you the the link was the original one from my previous post
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It looks as if Mary Ward had died by 1861 (not found a suitable marriage for her 1851-1861) and Jane was with her grandparents but listed as 'daughter'
1861
Chirk Green, Chirk
RG9/1880/108/11
Thos Ward, 66, sawyer. b. Oswestry
Margt, 67, Chirk
Jane, daur, 12, b. Chirk
William Williams, boarder, 52, coal ganger, b. Selattyn, Shropshire
John Evans, lodger, unm, 51, labourer, b. Chirk
I did find a death/burial in July 1851 for a Mary Ward in my Ruabon records . She was the right age for Jane's mother (28) but not sure and no other info. There is no other Mary Ward of the correct age in the area on the 1851 apart from Jane's mother. She was down as b. Ruabon on the 1851 so maybe she was buried with/by her family.
The GRO index for this death is:
Sept q, 1851, Wrexham, v. 27 p 166
gnu
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More deaths:
Charles Aubrey, Mar q, 1897, Wigan*, v 8c p28. Aged 54
And
Jane Aubrey, Sep q, 1916, Leigh*, v. 8c p 213. Aged 67
*More info on these Registration Districts here:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Wigan/CivilRegistration.shtml
gnu
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I have two census image for 1851.
Both seem to be the same family,but transcribed differently.
Elizabeth is a widow in one and married in the other ?
1851
HO107; Piece: 2488; Folio: 153; Page: 8, household schedule 24
Mill ? Houses , Llandrindod
Elizabeth Awbrey widow 36 b Llanbadarn Fawr
Jane Awbrey 11 dau b "
Charls Awbrey 8 son b "
David Awbrey 6 son b Llandrindod
Sarah Thomas lodger 30 dressmaker b Llanbadarn Fawr.
1851
HO107; Piece: 2488; Folio: 159; Page: 6
Mill House Llandrindod
Elizabeth Owbry marr 36 masons wife b Llanbadarn Fawr.
Jane Owbry 11 dau b "
Charls Owbry 8 son b "
David Owbry 6 son b Llandrindod
Sarah Thomas lodger 30 dressmaker b Llanbadarn Fawr.
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RG9; Piece: 4206; Folio: 30; Page: 6
1861
Mill Cottage, Llandrindod. This is the same address as 1851.
Elizabeth Aubrey widow 46 staymaker b Llanbadarn Fawr
Elizabeth Aubrey dau 22 staymaker b “”
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Could this be Jane from 1851. perhaps if John is her Uncle then her mother Elizabeth was his sister, making her maiden name Davies.
Of course the only positive way to make sure is getting a birth cerficate of one of John Aubreys children.
RG9; Piece: 4228; Folio: 53; Page: 11
1861 Sywydd & Graig . Radnorshire
Manor House
John Davies 42 Blacksmith b Llanbistor.
Ann Davies wife 42 b Llanbadarn Fawr
David Chas Davies son 4 b Llandegley ?
Matthew Davies servant 34 journeyman smith b Llanbistor
Ann Evans visitor widow 72 b Breconshire
Jane Aubrey niece 21 dressmaker b Llanbadarn Fawr,
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This may be Charles in 1861, but given the variations so far in transcriptions it`s like pinning the tail on the donkey.
It does seem to be Aubury on the original image but is transcribed as Alsbury as there is a smudge on his name.
RG9; Piece: 4207; Folio: 109; Page: 10
1861
Llether ? Llysdinam. Breconshire.
Isiah Morris 37 farmer b Bettws Radnorshire
Wife & two daughters.
Charles Aubury / Alsbury 15 farm servant b Llanbadarn Radnorshire.
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Wow, you two have definitely been busy. One of the interesting bits for me is that that 1861 census, with the "sawyer" piece. gnu's earlier post about Jane's birth had "(sawyer)" listed in it for the father and I had been wondering about it, since I hadn't seen other birth/baptism notices with the profession before. Still, I suppose the son could've taken after the father. (Hopefully it's okay to quote the sawyer bits)
Thank you both for the time and information, this is great. And gnu, I don't have a clue how I missed that genuki link to Wigan - side note, I am distressed to learn that the area is now part of Greater Manchester not Lancashire ! - but thank you.. that has given me some other information too.
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Hi WT
Just a bit more bits. I've not looked through all my Chirk records so far as I've been travelling but here's a possible for Thomas Ward, sawyer, b. Oswestry (grandfather of Jane)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N5SY-7R2
Father listed as James and mother as Jane.
I'll have a more detailed look for any children of the couple in Chirk later or tomorrow - got a football match to watch ;D
gnu
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.and a possible marriage for james and Jane Evans in Oswestry:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N28B-9MB
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Children baptised Chirk to Thomas Ward and Margaret:
(Earlier post - Reply #18 - has them marrying Chirk in 1815)
3 March 1816 John Ward s/o Thos (sawyer) and Margt of Chirk Green - the one who had the minor dispute about the £4 insurance
14 Nov 1819 Thomas Ward s/o Thos (sawyer) and Margt of Chirk Green - probable father of Jane
21 July 1822 Mary Ward d/o Thomas (sawyer) and Margt of C Green
13 March 1825 George Ward s/o Thomas (sawyer) and Margt of C Green
Margaret's baptism is a bit more difficult to identify - I've got some possibles for brother, John, and her but not too sure.
gnu
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Great! Our tree has expanded so much because of you, gnu.
And I am sad to say that I had missed the original insurance post... glad I went back to look for that post from wilcoxon to find out about the criminals in our past and the prize winner too!
My family thanks you too, my sister - especially - is highly entertained by it all.
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Re the insurance dispute - it was thrown out and Charles was allowed to keep the £4. The judge told them to sort it out between themselves unless Margaret's will was ever proved (don't think it was) :-X
I think another of the entries was for Charles as a witness and I'm not sure about the jewelry theft from the Railway company - did railway companies own jewelry ???
Most of these old newspaper reports make a good read, though ;D
My great granddad won a prize for best dessert apples at the Chirk flower/veg show too - he was about 11 at the time. I expect his Mum put them in for him ;D ;D ;D
gnu
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Some more rellies for you and sister - I've just found the John Ward in the 1871 - he of the disputed insurance
RG10/3809/104/11
27 Salisbury Street, Everton, Liverpool
Jno Ward, widr, 55, sawyer, b. Chirk, Denbs
John, s, 20, upholderer
Charles E, s, 18, clerk
Eliza A, d, 15
Herbert D, 12
Oswald E, s, 9
children all b. Liverpool
gnu
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I started compiling this earlier today, but work stopped play.
There may be parts that you already know about, but here it is anyway.
WA Saturday, September 18 1875
Squabble for funeral money.
John Ward of Liverpool V Charles Aubrey
The Plaintiff claimed £4 the amount paid on the death of his mother by the Chirk Union Friendly Society. The defendants wife was the plaintiffs niece and she had received the £4, she maintaining that she had paid the club money for eleven years ( at 1s a year ) He on the otherside said he had paid the expenses attendant on his mothers funeral and besides had kept her for some time.
Moreover, he produced his mothers will showing he was entitled to the money; but his honour said he could not admit the will as it had not been proved. It appeared that the mother had for many years been in receipt of parish relief, and the defendant’s wife said that her uncle had never looked at his mother until she was left some money. His Honour suggested that the £4 should be divided, but the parties could not agree, and a verdict was given for the defendant, his Honour however stating that if the will were proved the money would have to be given to the plaintiff.
In 1861 a John Ward , sawyer born Chirk c 1816 is living in 111 Mann St, Toxteth. His wife Eliza born Wrexham c 1818 keeps a public house.
John was the brother of Jane`s father Thomas.
John Ward married Elizabeth Jones at St Mary’s Chirk in 1839
From GNU`S posts we have the baptism at Chirk 3 Dec 1848 of
Jane d/o Thomas (sawyer) and Mary Ward and the burial at Chirk 22 March 1849 Thomas Ward. Aged 29 b c 1820.
From this I think I`m correct in presuming that the mother that the argument was about was Margaret Ward b c 1797.
Margaret is living in the next household to Charles and Jane Aubrey at Chirk in 1871. She is described as an annuitant.
Deaths maybe
June qtr 1875 West Derby. Margaret Ward aged 80
Sept qtr 1864 Oswestry . Thomas Ward , no age given.
Looking back at the dispute , a period of eleven years is mentioned
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My great granddad won a prize for best dessert apples at the Chirk flower/veg show too - he was about 11 at the time. I expect his Mum put them in for him ;D ;D ;D
gnu
Hehe... I suppose I can assume that Charles likely grew the potatoes but, you never know, maybe your great granddad grew up to be a famous chef! Then again, I'm guessing you'd know that - oh well, it was a thought.
Interesting how this family (2 sides of it) moved so far away from their roots.